code of ethics: WWers and the rest of the world

[Zahid Naqvi]

The general consensus at SMC and, a select few other WWing forums, is that if a member asks you opinion on a tool for sale he/she gets the first crack. At least that's what I do.
I had a bit of an eye opener today. I have recently joined a bicycle forum to get some advice on a new road bike I am trying to buy. I asked their opinion on a used bike, which seemed to be very well equiped and was being offered at a reasonable price (no reserve auction). While the discussion is going on, suddely there are four new bids on the bike just this morning-the bike hadn't seen any action in the last two days. I was politely remined through a couple of PMs that there is no such thing as ethics in the biking community.

[patrick anderson]

sorry to hear that mate, I guess next time dont mention and details :(

[Dennis Peacock]

Well it's nice to know that us a fellow ww'ers understand ethics a bit better than the bike forum you mentioned. ;)

[Tyler Howell]

I'm going to love this new bike:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :D .
Sorry Z, I couldn't resist.
Happened to me with my first real Job out of trade school. One of the instructors beat me to the punch after I asked him about the company. I was on top of the list until he jumped in.
The good side of the story is we got a better instructor. I got a better job.:D and he got canned after a few months for unethical practices:p . Go figure.

[Bart Leetch]

I probably would have fired back no there is such thing as you having personal ethics don't even drag the biking community into this. Ethics are held at a personal level its not a group consensus. Your the one at fault here not the community.

Next time just give the particulars & description of the article not the location or URL.

[Zahid Naqvi]

I probably would have fired back no there is such thing as you having personal ethics don't even drag the biking community into this. Ethics are held at a personal level its not a group consensus. Your the one at fault here not the community.

Next time just give the particulars & description of the article not the location or URL.

Once bitten twice alert, it ain't gonna happen again. BTW I was referring to bicycle, i.e. the ones with pedals, not the motorised version (just in case there is any confusion). The exact words used by one member were "There's guys here that would kill each other over good deals on ebay listed Italian bikes".
I realize I was at fault for asking advice about a bicycle on a bicycle forum:eek: .

[Tom Pritchard]

Zahid, I can certainly understand your disappointment. I always believe that people are good, and that our care and concern for each other is how we evolved as a species into the people we are today. There are always a few out there that make me want to question this belief, however throughout history there have always been skunks that have taken advantage of others. I always walk away feeling that the shame is on them for acting the way they did, not on me for trusting!

Too bad about the bike. It looks like this wasn't the one you were meant to have! I'm betting there's a better deal out there on a better bike just waiting for you, and after you get it, you'll say "Man, am I glad I didn't get that bike I was looking at on ebay!!":)

You definitely took the high ground. Keep looking!

[Mike Cutler]

Zahid.

They were just plain rude, cyclist or not. Probably wheel sucking pigs that never pull through in the peloton, or carry a spare on a group ride also. I raced bicycles all over the place for close to thirty years, and I would have never done that to anybody.
I have a pretty extensive knowledge of high end racing bike. I was mostly into Carbon fiber when I raced, but I know enough about the steel bikes also. My carbon frames were made illegal by the UCI,and the USCF in 2000-2001. Bummer, the French, and the English made some awesome carbon frames.Hotta, Lotus, Corima
If you need a second opinion just PM me. I have a $15-20K worth of bikes, and and equipment hanging in the basement doing nothing, so I wouldn't be trying to bid against you.

EBAY can be a good source for cycling equipment, but I would be very leery unless I knew the source.

By the way, what were you looking at?

[John Schreiber]

Different groups of people do have different ethics. Bicycling is a competitive activity where your effort is what makes you successful. Every race won is won by beating other people. In a race, an accident for others is an opportunity for you to get ahead. As a result in any group of cyclists there will be some people who will take advantage of any situation. Of course, there are others who will help you out in any situation too, but you don't notice the many who didn't bid on the bike.

Wood is a medium where you only cut away at what has already been created by nature. By shaping what is given to us and joining other pieces we are able to make truly wonderful things. Woodworking, for hobbyist and most craftsman, is a solitary activity. That makes us value our community even more. Any form of competition in woodworking is much more in trying to better than you have before than in trying to do better than another. Of course, there are probably some woodworkers out there who I wouldn't like much either.

Sorry to get philosophical, but having been an active cyclist and now a woodworker, and having participated in on-line forums for both, your question got me thinking.

[John Hart]

That stinks Zahid!!! The community sets social norms, and I agree that within this community, it would be frowned on heavily, therefore setting a higher standard for its constituents. It would be very rare indeed to witness such an underhanded act from a woodworker..

[John Bailey]

If you ever get a chance, take a look at what OWWM has to say about auctions and posting to forums. They, apparently have had problems and bad vibes.

John

[Steve Hayes]

I've been riding for over 20 years and you will meet some of the biggest snobs you will ever see. If your bike cost less than $3000.00 they laugh at you, if your using $300.00 titanium pedals your not a true cyclist. But on the other hand you will meet some of the best people ever. People that will help at the drop of a hat. You have your dedicated cyclist that just wants to ride and not put on a fashion show with their $150.00 dollar jersey. It takes all kinds. I ride for the exercise and to get away from the world, hit the coutry roads and the accomplishment of riding 100 miles in a day. Some people ride to win at any cost and that's fine. Get one, get on it and RIDE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Zahid Naqvi]

Zahid.
EBAY can be a good source for cycling equipment, but I would be very leery unless I knew the source.

By the way, what were you looking at?

Mike, I'm just getting into it because several of my friends have taken to biking. Starting off I thought the stuff you can buy at Walmart is a good starter option. But I got flodded by the plethora of gear, options, frames, pedals and what not. Since I didn't want to spend the next three months educating my self on bike equipment, I thought I'd ask others who know, and that's how it all got started. In all honesty most of them were nice folks, and warned me about the pitfalls of my way through PMs.

Funny thing is I endded up getting the bike anyway :D . I asked the seller how much he was expecting to get for the bike, he offered 450 plus shipping, I offered 450 including shipping, we agreed on 475 including shipping and insurance. As you can see the seller closed the auction early. See item number 330061785019 on the electronic Bay. Most people I asked for advice said the bike was worth around 600. The bike is in transit still, so I can't tell you about the condition. Hopefully it's a good deal.

[Zahid Naqvi]

Get one, get on it and RIDE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That's what my plan is. I have my hands full learning about handtools, can't afford another hobby, just need the exercise. And exercise always works better in groups, DAMHIKI.

[Zahid Naqvi]

Nicely put John.


Different groups of people do have different ethics. Bicycling is a competitive activity where your effort is what makes you successful. Every race won is won by beating other people. In a race, an accident for others is an opportunity for you to get ahead. As a result in any group of cyclists there will be some people who will take advantage of any situation. Of course, there are others who will help you out in any situation too, but you don't notice the many who didn't bid on the bike.

Wood is a medium where you only cut away at what has already been created by nature. By shaping what is given to us and joining other pieces we are able to make truly wonderful things. Woodworking, for hobbyist and most craftsman, is a solitary activity. That makes us value our community even more. Any form of competition in woodworking is much more in trying to better than you have before than in trying to do better than another. Of course, there are probably some woodworkers out there who I wouldn't like much either.

Sorry to get philosophical, but having been an active cyclist and now a woodworker, and having participated in on-line forums for both, your question got me thinking.

[scott spencer]

Too bad Zahid. Maybe I'm just an idealist and see things the way I'd like them to be, but I've always thought of wwers as being more honest and ethical than the average joe. I envision men and women of their word, and I've never had a bad business dealing with a fellow wwer. It's just hard for me to imagine a slightly graying gent admiring a nice piece of wood that he's going to build into a crib, sliding a hand plane over it, thinking about the best way to join it, the baby that'll use it, and then going out and doing something really low, selfish, or immoral.

We may not agree on the best tools or techniques, but it's not an overly competitive hobby in that one's success doesn't seem to diminish another's...there's lots of sharing and learning exchanges. Maybe it's different in the pro world... Anyone else view wwer's like I do?

[Zahid Naqvi]

We may not agree on the best tools or techniques, but it's not an overly competitive hobby in that one's success doesn't seem to diminish another's...there's lots of sharing and learning exchanges. Maybe it's different in the pro world... Anyone else view wwer's like I do?

I think you nailed it.
The collaborative nature of our hobby is what feeds the communal atmosphere. I think there is also a strong sense of wanting to preserve an ancestral trade, specially among the handtool/neander bunch.
Until about a couple of years ago I used to be a very active Tennis player. Played a bunch of tournaments, team tennis etc. In recreational tennis you call you own lines, and I have seen some stuff that is down right nasty. I am sure I was guilty of some myself, but it's the competitive nature of the sport that gets to you. There are still teams which hangout after tennis and socialize with each other etc. but it stays within the team, once they land on a court they put on the competitive hat.
Fortunately there is no such thing in woodworking, not until you get into the collectors world. Now that's a whole different ball game ;)

[John Schreiber]

See item number 330061785019 on the electronic Bay. Zahid,

Looks like you've done well. That's a fine bike that will last for years and the frame is worthy of upgrades if parts start to wear. I've never been comfortable with low spoke count wheels like those, but you are probably more than a few pounds lighter than I, and many people ride on them quite successfully.

I loved to ride because it combined so many great things. Meeting people, traveling, exploring, mechanics, technology, exercising, planning and sometimes pushing your body and mind to its limits.

Ride the bike. Ride the bike. Ride the bike.

[Mike Cutler]

Zahid.

Nice bike. If memory serves me correctly the Lemond frame was imported by Gita. The Reynolds 853 was top of the line tubing at the time, and is still the choice of custom builders like Richard Sachs. Independent fabrication still makes their TOL frame out of an 853 tubeset.
The ultegra gruppo is a nice gruppo. The brakes were a little bit too lite for me, but I was a heavier rider. I used to shoot trhough turns with the brakes full on. I was also a Campagnolo snob. I rode Campy Record. It doesn't really matter though. As long as it gets in gear and stays in gear is all that matters.
The Rolfs will hold up just fine. At 6'3", 180lbs and generating over 800 watts. I could flex them, but I couldn't break one. I used to tear out the spoke holes on the hubs of traditional rims when I would jump for a sprint.
I don't know what type of hills you have where you are at. The gearing is good for a fast recreational rider to a racer , but even at 39/25 it could be a little tough for someone just getting into it if the grade steepens sharply. Stay off the steep stuff for awhile.
Cinelli stem and bars. Very classy touch. This along with the frame and panel graphics says "euro".

Buy a very nice pair of shoes. Sidi's or Carnacs to go with those SPD pedals. Cheap shoes suck.

The snobbery that John refers too, unfortunately does exist. In the end though, it still comes down to the engine. I used to ride an old Ironman Centurion in the spring. 6 speeds, downtube shifters, rat trap pedals. Totally retro. I always liked spanking the guys on the Titanium frames like redheaded step children. It was fun, and they were my friends. Plus a bagel and coffee was usually on the line for winning the sprint

I think that the bike will be a good fit for you. A lot of the more exotic frames were really made with the bigger, heavier rider in mind. The smaller guys did not realize the weight savings by switching from steel to carbon, or titanium like the bigger guys did. The frames were plenty stiff, yet vertically compliant for smaller riders. For someone like me, I would bend and sway the bottom bracket too much in a full blown sprint on an 853 frame, I was a hammer though. I ended up riding the same frames as Marty Nortstein ( Famous US Track bike rider). If he couldn't bend or break it. I knew darn well I wouldn't be able to.

Riding and racing bicycles defined me as a person for a long time. I loved it. I thinkk you can tell that though.;)