Table saw dilemma which way?

[Joe Mioux]

If one was in the market for a new tablesaw, which way would one go?

"One" might say that SawStops technology is the way to go.

while another "one" might say a slider, ala something like a MM, might be a better way to go.

What would "you" say a potential buyer.

Just thinking(actually just typing out loud and pondering) outloud.

Joe

[Matt Moore]

For me it is a sawstop. I hope to upgrade to it within a year.

[Jim Becker]

Joe, my next saw will be a MM slider. I'm actually trying REALLY hard to find a way to take adventage of the year-end sale right now. I don't know if I can pull it off, however, as there are some unexpected additional budget items in our home addtion. (septic related) But I'm mulling it over. I really have no incentive to "upgrade" to another cabinet saw like the (excellent) SawStop, but the slider is a different animal altogether that I've wanted to move to for a couple years now.

[Michael Fross]

Sawstop is in my future. But might be a few years out....

[john tomljenovic]

If I had a choice would go with a sliding saw. there is just more you can do with them. I have just have the dewalt sliding table on my contractor saw and can see the potential of a true format style machine. the sawstop I have gotten a close up look at and it is the best built cabinet saw I ever seen. but despite the safety features it still just a cabinet saw and really can't do anything much more than my meager general contractor saw can do.

space more than anything is whats keeping me from a new minimax.....damn sale.

[Mike Cutler]

Money aside, I'd take a slider.

[Joe Mioux]

Joe, my next saw will be a MM slider. I'm actually trying REALLY hard to find a way to take adventage of the year-end sale right now. I don't know if I can pull it off, however, as there are some unexpected additional budget items in our home addtion. (septic related) But I'm mulling it over. I really have no incentive to "upgrade" to another cabinet saw like the (excellent) SawStop, but the slider is a different animal altogether that I've wanted to move to for a couple years now.

Jim that is what I am thinking. that year end deally is pretty enticing.

With that said, MM guys treat repeat customers very well.....or so I am told.

Joe

P.S. Jim I have a solution to the budget issues.....Buy the slider and forgo windows for a year or so! ;)

[Jim Becker]

P.S. Jim I have a solution to the budget issues.....Buy the slider and forgo windows for a year or so!

Hmmm...well...I don't think that is a viable idea. Dr. SWMBO and the little elves wouldn't go for that one bit! But I'm playing with the numbers since I'm saving well in excess of the cost of the saw by doing the cabinetry myself. That's been my plan all along. And then the probably extra $10K of septic updates came along. I've already got $17K into the project and we haven't even signed the contract yet! (That's this week...close on the financing on Tuesday and sign the contract with the...contractor...shortly thereafter)

[Todd Solomon]

If I were buying a new saw today, it would depend on my budget. My candidates would be:

1st choice: a euro slider ($$$$)
2nd choice: Sawstop ($$$)
3rd choice: The new Powermatic with the riving knife ($$)

I think these are all great saws. The Powermatic looks to be a quality design, and has a riving knife. That's just huge in the safety world. Kelley Mehler said that he's tried to produce kickback by purposely misaligning the workpiece during cutting, and has found that the riving knife virtually eliminates kickback. He said that he performed this test because he runs a school, and wanted to understand just how well a riving knife works. He has Felder sliders, which come with riving knives.

In addition to a riving knife, the Sawstop adds the additional safety features we all know about. It looks like a quality saw in it's construction.

A traditional cabinet saw with the right options, and with jigs like a sled, will do everything you ask of it well. But if your budget will allow, I'm with Jim. A european slider is an absolute pleasure to use. I've owned two, a Mini Max SC4-WS and now a Felder K700S Plus. Euro sliders change the way you work. Sliding your workpiece, big or small, on a slider that will cut a panel typically square to less than a thousandth of an inch per foot, on all sides, is effortless. They have both large crosscut fences mounted to an outrigger for sheet goods and larger workpieces, and small fences that usually use for solid wood cuts. You can remove the outrigger and just use the small crosscut fence, for smaller work, which saves space in your shop. The crosscut fences come with large, accurate miter scales for cutting angles. The Felder comes with drop-in pin holes that exactly and repeatably set common angles. You can clamp the work to the slider and stand far away from the danger zone, if you wish. They come with scoring blades, which gives you flawless cuts on both faces of veneer plywood and melamine.

I built my shop's cabinets, and was blown away at the efficiency, accuracy, and ease the slider provides. You don't need a shop helper to wrestle the big panels safely on your table saw. You just clamp the sheet down on the slider and go. It is equally remarkable for solid woods. If you buy rough lumber, you can rip a perfectly straight edge on it by clamping it to the slider.

The Felder 700 series is as close to a perfect machine I've ever seen. This is the saw I would recommend, if your budget allows. Felder also has a new 500 series line and a Hammer line, which are worth a look. They're fairly new, so I don't know a lot about them.

The MM line is also quite impressive- very high quality and accurate. My MM was not quite as refined as the Felder, but never the less was an excellent machine at a lower price. MM has added more machines and improvements to their line up, and continues to innovate. I would look hard at them, as well as Felder.

Mark Duginske did an excellent write-up on the advantages of sliding table saws, which is too large to attach here. It used to be on the Felder site, but I can't find it. Mark, like Yueng Chan, Kelley Mehler, and a host of other pros, has converted to the euro slider. I can send you a private e-mail with this write-up, if you like. Let me know.

Todd

[David Less]

Joe I do not like to talk about which saw is better than one another because it is a very personal opinion. Any way, if you want a highend slider built like a metal working machine, don't rule this one out.

David

http://gallery.clearvuecyclones.com/albums/Custom-Built-Godzilla-Cyclone/Knapp_KFS_20_ST.sized.jpg

[Todd Solomon]

Joe I do not like to talk about which saw is better than one another because it is a very personal opinion. Any way, if you want a highend slider built like a metal working machine, don't rule this one out.

David


David, I think that's a Knapp? I agree, they're at the top of the heap, I hear on par with Felder. The issue with Knapp is that they're in bankruptcy. I don't think they'll die, because they're owned by Robland. I understand that Robland will probably take over manufacture of Knapp in the Robland factory. I would be concerned, though, with their quality and service, after the sale, years from now. It would be a good idea to call Laguna and ask about the details of this. Maybe it's all worked out, and is a none-issue, but it gives me caution.

Todd

[Jeff Weight]

While a slider is nice, the Saw Stop is the way to go. Most of us only get 10 fingers. One mishap and your woodworking could be finished for life. You can always ad an aftermarket slider to the Saw Stop down the road.

[lou sansone]

go with the slider as others have said
lou

[Jim Becker]

You can always ad an aftermarket slider to the Saw Stop down the road.

Not the same thing, but certainly an option for those who feel more comfortable with the SawStop!

[Jay Brewer]

Hi Joe, It really depends on your budget, if you have the funds, and room for a slider, you wont be disapointed. There is no add on for a cabinet saw that can come close to a true slider. On the other hand, if your looking at cabinet saws, I think it would be foolish to not put Saw Stop at the top of the list, besides the safty feature, its still arguably one of the best cabinet saws on the market today.

[Tom Zielinski]

3rd choice: The new Powermatic with the riving knife ($$)

I think these are all great saws. The Powermatic looks to be a quality design, and has a riving knife.

The only issue with this is that for all intents and purposes that is not a true riving knife on the powermatic. I have not seen it up close yet but you watch the video and it looks like a modified splitter that has a quick mounting system like the euro ones. Plus I have been unable to verify if it tilts with the arbor (huge advantage of the euro style). Also by the appearance in the video and pictures it may not raise and lower with the blade. It looks again to be only a 90 degree through cut style. Which is no different then what we have now.

Unless someone has seen them and can verify differently.

I'm waiting for a new house before I decide on what to upgrade too. I'll go with a sawstop if I don't get a euro slider (kinda leaning toward a combo since my space is always limited.)

[Ellen Benkin]

I've used the SawStop and it would be my choice if I were upgrading to a cabinet saw.

[Al Willits]

Easy for me, the Hybrid Delta I have now....budget doesn't include 5k for a sawstop or anything else that expensive.

I find, what should I buy questions without a pricing index to go buy a bit hard to answer, considering the amount of variable that exist.

Cost no issue, probably a Slider .. sure looks purdy...:)

Al

[Steven Wilson]

I would, and did go with a sliding table saw (MM CU350). To me the most important part of the Saw Stop isn't the blade brake (your hands shouldn't be anywhere near the blade) but the riving knife. It's a proper riving knife that prevents kickback and lessens the chance that your body parts will be pulled towards the blade. A proper sliding table saw (which has the carrige next to the blade unlike the aftermarket addons) equiped with hold downs takes safety one step further in that you lock down the work and then push it through the blade with your hands kept well away from the cutting path. This is fundementaly more safe that relying on a electromechanical device to sense your body part contacting the blade. If your body parts are not in the vicinity they won't be amputated. So, besides the greatly improved accuracy working with a sliding table saw, I feel they are inherantly more safe than the SawStop.

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

If one was in the market for a new tablesaw, which way would one go?

Felder or Hammer.




while another "one" might say a slider, ala something like a MM, might be a better way to go.

MM is nice too but I'd stick with Austrian made


What would "you" say a potential buyer.
Felder or Hammer

[Jim Becker]

Cliff, why Austrian over Italian? SCM is a world leader in this technology as are the folks in Austria. What are the differentiators that one should look at?

[Tom Majewski]

The shop I worked at had a Minimax slider. It collected dust and came to be a storage table most of the time while the Unisaws and cms's were constantly buzzing. It DID shine when I had to square up a warped rough cut timber.
If I had my dream home shop, I'd go with a top name cabinet saw or a Sawstop with a 6' by 8' laminate table. The confidence I had using a heavyweight, smooth saw with a huge table to flip 4x8 sheets on....it's like night and day compared to my humble old Grizz at home.

[Todd Solomon]

The shop I worked at had a Minimax slider. It collected dust and came to be a storage table most of the time while the Unisaws and cms's were constantly buzzing. It DID shine when I had to square up a warped rough cut timber.
If I had my dream home shop, I'd go with a top name cabinet saw or a Sawstop with a 6' by 8' laminate table. The confidence I had using a heavyweight, smooth saw with a huge table to flip 4x8 sheets on....it's like night and day compared to my humble old Grizz at home.

Hi Tom, I'm surprised the slider didn't get more use in a professional shop. Could you elaborate as to why they preferred the cabinet saws? I know a number of professional shops that have the opposite opinion and experience- they've gone from cabinet saws to sliders, and have never looked back. If I were going to make another set of cabinets, and I had both a cabinet saw and a slider, there's no question that I'd turn to the slider. And for most other projects too. I just don't see any big disadvantages to a slider, other than cost and footprint. But then, I swear by my iron planes, and I know others that won't use anything but woodies.

Todd

[Gary Curtis]

Joe,

After spending 18 months researching sliding table saws, I bought one. Now that I have had it fo 11 months, let me tell you what it means to me.

I sliced up 16 4x4 legs and stretchers for 20 feet of shop benches in less than 20 minutes. By using the flip stop on the crosscut fence, I didn't measure or mark one piece of wood, and they are all exactly the same length.

You've read some of the responses here and the costs of the machines.
When I realized I wouldn't have $12k or $13k, I started looking at North American machinery and settled on a 5hp General from Canada with their sliding table.

The craftsmanship and durability on every aspect of this machine are first rate. It won't do what a genuine Euro slider will do. It won't make rip cuts using the slider. But I can crosscut a 4x8 sheet of plywood on the table.

I visited the showrooms for both Felder and Knapp. I visited the shops of 5 people who own those machines. They are impressive. If your budget is tight, Felder just introduced a newer, less expensive series of their machines. Called the 500 series.

I know two owners of SawStops. If I didn't want a slider, I would seriously consider that equipment. If your budget is only big enough for more modest cabinet saw you can mimic some of the capabilities of the sliding table by buying a Festool plunge saw to handle awkward sheets of plywood.

You don't get the safety of the slider. And you won't get the amazing dust collection of the Euro saws. Since I am just a hobbyiest, it seemed a little extreme for me to throw $13,000 at a tool that I would use for perhaps 2-3 hours a week. With a European format saw the tooling can eat you alive. And to take advantage of the variable speed motors you'll have the challenge of wiring your shop for 3-phase power.

I'm not saying "less is more." But sometimes less can do the job -- and even be fun.

Gary Curtis

[Alister Orme]

I just did this one and ended up buying a saw stop and putting a wee jessem on it for small stuff.
At the time I had a chance at a used altendorf, but when I looked at what I wanted to do in the shop it made more sence to get a cabinet saw and then buy a CNC machine for panel rendering...and other stuff.

[Tom Majewski]

Hi Todd,
I guess it's a case of being familiar with it. Other than that, I don't know why it was a dust collector. One guy praised and defended it, the other few couldn't be bothered with it.
I was the CAD guy at the shop, mostly staying in the office. When times got slow or super busy, I got to work with the toys. I'm no longer there, I'm doing cad and laser work on my own.

The shop had a couple cabinet saws. The one had that huge 8.5' wide table, and was located in a way that even a novice like me could tip a full sheet of ply or mdf up on the table, run it through the saw, and on the final push, it would end up in the assembly stack behind the saw. That thing was like an air hockey table the way wood glided over it, and everyone had a different style on it (and always laughing at my style) but hey, The quality if not the speed was there. The slider just seemed more of a pain to get wood on and off of.
One of the fellows thought the slider would increase production, or make things easier, or more accurate, but after he talked the boss into buying one, it never caught on in the shop. Now if I compared it to my contractor saw setup at home, I'd jump on a slider if I had one. But the way I work and the tricks/tips I learned, I'd be happier with a top notch cabinet saw.

[Todd Solomon]

Hi Todd,
I guess it's a case of being familiar with it. Other than that, I don't know why it was a dust collector. One guy praised and defended it, the other few couldn't be bothered with it.
I was the CAD guy at the shop, mostly staying in the office. When times got slow or super busy, I got to work with the toys. I'm no longer there, I'm doing cad and laser work on my own.

The shop had a couple cabinet saws. The one had that huge 8.5' wide table, and was located in a way that even a novice like me could tip a full sheet of ply or mdf up on the table, run it through the saw, and on the final push, it would end up in the assembly stack behind the saw. That thing was like an air hockey table the way wood glided over it, and everyone had a different style on it (and always laughing at my style) but hey, The quality if not the speed was there. The slider just seemed more of a pain to get wood on and off of.
One of the fellows thought the slider would increase production, or make things easier, or more accurate, but after he talked the boss into buying one, it never caught on in the shop. Now if I compared it to my contractor saw setup at home, I'd jump on a slider if I had one. But the way I work and the tricks/tips I learned, I'd be happier with a top notch cabinet saw.

I hear you. Once you master techniques on certain equipment, there's really not a lot of incentive to switch. I'm sure if a japanese master woodworker was offered a Norris infill plane, and a bunch of top-notch western-style chisels, marking gages and saws, they would likely sit beautifully on display. He's mastered his japanese tools, no reason to switch. Nothing wrong with either path.

Todd

[Joe Mioux]

The shop had a couple cabinet saws. The one had that huge 8.5' wide table, and was located in a way that even a novice like me could tip a full sheet of ply or mdf up on the table, run it through the saw, and on the final push, it would end up in the assembly stack behind the saw. That thing was like an air hockey table the way wood glided over it, and everyone had a different style on it (and always laughing at my style) but hey, The quality if not the speed was there. The slider just seemed more of a pain to get wood on and off of.


Maybe this is the future of new table saws. Wood riding on a vacuum of air.?

This has turned into a good discussion. Thank you all!

Joe

[Jim Becker]

Yes, interesting discussion, Joe. Todd makes the best point...everyone works a little differently or has different expectations. I never would have thought I'd go the direction I am headed, but I'm looking forward to working in very different ways relative to the table saw than I have in the past. That, in itself, is quite stimulating!

[John Russell]

I have a saw stop and I like the sawm but I am thiking of adding a combination machine with a slider. Here is how I got to this point.

I thought I was going to build a new shop, but the estimtes from contractors put it out of reach. I plan to empty my 22x22 garage of other stuff and dedicate it to being a woodworking shop. I can build a car port and storage shed for a reasonable amount.

So, I need to be space efficient, but the safety factor of sawstop is essential to me. The comination machines such as the Felder 500 series and similar Minimax machines are FAR, FAR cheapter than a new shop plus car port and storage shed. I think they also save me space.

I am thinking that a combination machine with jointer, planer, shaper, and slider plus a sawstop might be an ideal setup because it should be space efficient and if I need to do rips, the sawstop offers its safety features and if I need to do sheet goods, then the slider helps there.

If the space issues work out, does this make sense?

[Todd Solomon]

I am thinking that a combination machine with jointer, planer, shaper, and slider plus a sawstop might be an ideal setup because it should be space efficient and if I need to do rips, the sawstop offers its safety features and if I need to do sheet goods, then the slider helps there.

If the space issues work out, does this make sense?

I don't know, John. I'm a big fan of european equipment, so I like the idea of a Felder or MM. But I don't really see a need or the space for both a Sawstop and a sliding combo machine. Table saws take up a lot of room. If you're space limited, how about keeping your SS and adding a combo jointer/planer? I suppose you could swap out the SS for a sliding saw or saw/shaper, if you really want a slider. Safety-wise, I think you're in good shape with either type machine, for all types of cuts. Euro sliders come with riving knives, and in the case of Felder, an optional jig that allows you to rip using the slider.

Todd

[Ken Milhinch]

Gents, I hear a lot of you singing the praises of the European saws, but what do you do about their inability to accept a dado ??:confused:

[Matthew Batarseh]

In the US market they almost all accept dado blades now - at least the Minimax, Hammer and Felder nearly all do or have the option to

[Joe Mioux]

I have a saw stop and I like the sawm but I am thiking of adding a combination machine with a slider. Here is how I got to this point.

I thought I was going to build a new shop, but the estimtes from contractors put it out of reach. I plan to empty my 22x22 garage of other stuff and dedicate it to being a woodworking shop. I can build a car port and storage shed for a reasonable amount.

So, I need to be space efficient, but the safety factor of sawstop is essential to me. The comination machines such as the Felder 500 series and similar Minimax machines are FAR, FAR cheapter than a new shop plus car port and storage shed. I think they also save me space.

I am thinking that a combination machine with jointer, planer, shaper, and slider plus a sawstop might be an ideal setup because it should be space efficient and if I need to do rips, the sawstop offers its safety features and if I need to do sheet goods, then the slider helps there.

If the space issues work out, does this make sense?

Given your space, that garage is going to fill up fast once you add a couple benches and other wood working equipment.

The advantage of two saws is that you would not have change out blades, such as a dado blade in one and a regular blade in the othe. The dual saws will also speed up repetitous tasks.

What size combo machine has your interest?

[Jim Becker]

Gents, I hear a lot of you singing the praises of the European saws, but what do you do about their inability to accept a dado ??
The MM S315WS that will soon be in my shop accomodates a normal dado blade and also has a 5/8" arbor so I can use all my current Forrest blades including the Dado King. Felder's setup for dados is a bit different and of their own design, but just as effective. The whole dado issue has changed due to market demands as Euro sliders become more and more popular with both pros and hobbiests in North America. Not an issue at all when the sliders are used purely as panel saws, but for more general purpose woodworking, that capablity is desirable with many folks. Therefore, vendors have responded.

[Gary Curtis]

Joe,

A few folks here have extolled the benefits of a sliding table saw. If you haven't seen or operated one, here is an endorsement that might sway you. On another forum, they posted a survey for "My Favorite Shop JIg." With about 50 or so people responding, more than 95% voted for a crosscut sled.

A sliding table on a saw is a crosscut sled. That is a clue to its usefulness. But of the more affordable North American types in the $3000-$4000 range, you'd have the ability to use the slider for crosscutting only. Ripping must be done in the traditional way --- which is less safe, harder, and far less precise.

A Euro sliding table saw is called a Format Saw, and they do it all. But will set you back close to or exceeding $10K.

But even the Jessem slide, which bolts on to most cabinet saws for $600 will do the job of a crosscut sled. So, there are ways for almost any pocketbook.

Gary Curtis

[tim rowledge]

As has been mentioned most of the Euro machines will actually do dados these days but the last time I did a TS dado was..... umm.... 5(?) years ago maybe. Simpler to use a router and a guide and it follows any bowing in ply better anyway.

[Frank Snyder]

The only issue with this is that for all intents and purposes that is not a true riving knife on the powermatic. I have not seen it up close yet but you watch the video and it looks like a modified splitter that has a quick mounting system like the euro ones. Plus I have been unable to verify if it tilts with the arbor (huge advantage of the euro style). Also by the appearance in the video and pictures it may not raise and lower with the blade. It looks again to be only a 90 degree through cut style. Which is no different then what we have now.

Unless someone has seen them and can verify differently.
Tom, I own a PM2000 and it is a true riving knife - it tilts with the arbor and follows the blade up and down. I also have PM's low-profile riving knife which looks like the same "shark fin" design found on Euro saws. The PM2000 is an outstanding table saw and worth consideration IMO.

[Rob Bodenschatz]

The only issue with this is that for all intents and purposes that is not a true riving knife on the powermatic. I have not seen it up close yet but you watch the video and it looks like a modified splitter that has a quick mounting system like the euro ones. Plus I have been unable to verify if it tilts with the arbor (huge advantage of the euro style). Also by the appearance in the video and pictures it may not raise and lower with the blade. It looks again to be only a 90 degree through cut style. Which is no different then what we have now.


Huh??? It sure does go up and down with the blade. Tilts with it too. Been using it for a year & I'm pretty sure it's saved me from kickback a few times.

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

Cliff, why Austrian over Italian? SCM is a world leader in this technology as are the folks in Austria. What are the differentiators that one should look at?

Not that I have owned one of each mind you.
I just like the way the Austrians do things. Lots of finesse.


But then I wouldn't buy an Italian automobile either.

[Wayne Watling]

I don't know, John. I'm a big fan of european equipment, so I like the idea of a Felder or MM. But I don't really see a need or the space for both a Sawstop and a sliding combo machine. Table saws take up a lot of room. If you're space limited, how about keeping your SS and adding a combo jointer/planer? I suppose you could swap out the SS for a sliding saw or saw/shaper, if you really want a slider. Safety-wise, I think you're in good shape with either type machine, for all types of cuts. Euro sliders come with riving knives, and in the case of Felder, an optional jig that allows you to rip using the slider.
Todd

John,

If you get a Tecnomax combo you wont need the Sawstop. I just took possession of a Tecnomax CU410 Elite (Canadian version) at Christmas and could not be happier, never again will I use a TS. You feel very safe when you are positioned way to the left of the blade with the piece clamped to the carriage and hands far away from the blade.

Regards,
Wayne

Here is the combo positioned in my 21 x 23 workshop.

http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l227/woodworkingpics/Tecnomax/Tecnomax410EliteSTS.jpg

http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l227/woodworkingpics/Tecnomax/Tecnomax410EliteJP.jpg

[Todd Solomon]

Here is the combo positioned in my 21 x 23 workshop.



Wayne,

That's a gorgeous machine. Have you put it through it's paces yet? How do you like it?

Todd

[Wayne Watling]

Wayne,
That's a gorgeous machine. Have you put it through it's paces yet? How do you like it?
Todd

The quality of this machine is something I'm still getting use too, everything can be adjusted and once adjusted it stays in place. I have recommenced a small project from prior to building my shop and the aquisition of a few new machines and I'm so happy with the slider. Clamp the work to the carriage, put a little pressure on and let the machine do the work. In that picture you can see I have my old 10" blade, today I purchase a few good quality 12" blades and the crosscut is cutting the cherry like butter, something I didn't experience with my TS. Its a very different experience when the piece slides through the blade without any drag from the cast iron. This machine will help take my work to a whole new level of acuracy and repeatability.
Once I've racked up a few hours on the other machines I'll post a small review.

Regards,
Wayne

[Joe Mioux]

John,

If you get a Tecnomax combo you wont need the Sawstop. I just took possession of a Tecnomax CU410 Elite (Canadian version) at Christmas and could not be happier, never again will I use a TS. You feel very safe when you are positioned way to the left of the blade with the piece clamped to the carriage and hands far away from the blade.

Regards,
Wayne

Here is the combo positioned in my 21 x 23 workshop.

http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l227/woodworkingpics/Tecnomax/Tecnomax410EliteSTS.jpg

http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l227/woodworkingpics/Tecnomax/Tecnomax410EliteJP.jpg

What is a S 400 P ? a relabeled MM16? 400mm equals what?

joe

[Roy Wall]

What is a S 400 P ? a relabeled MM16? 400mm equals what?

joe

Correct.....mm16 16"=400mm (approx)

[Joe Jensen]

John,

If you get a Tecnomax combo you wont need the Sawstop. I just took possession of a Tecnomax CU410 Elite (Canadian version) at Christmas and could not be happier, never again will I use a TS. You feel very safe when you are positioned way to the left of the blade with the piece clamped to the carriage and hands far away from the blade.

Regards,
Wayne

Here is the combo positioned in my 21 x 23 workshop.





Nice saw, how do you rip Hardwoods on it? After 25 years with a Biesemyer, I don't know how I would live without the speed of setting width for ripping.

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

Gents, I hear a lot of you singing the praises of the European saws, but what do you do about their inability to accept a dado ??:confused:

ALL Felder and Hammer saws can come with the long arbor for a Dado.

I bought the Felder dado (you don't have to) and I love the way it works. It's got replaceable and rotatable carbide insert cutters and chippers.

[Jim Becker]

Correct.....mm16 16"=400mm (approx)

Yup...that gorgeous stuff it up in Canada! And the combo is a sweet machine and looks quite at home in that shop!

[Wayne Watling]

Nice saw, how do you rip Hardwoods on it? After 25 years with a Biesemyer, I don't know how I would live without the speed of setting width for ripping.

It comes with a rip fence (not shown in pic), but I'm going to try using the slider with the rip shoe and the clamp that also comes standard (Canadian version).

Re: Dado
It also supports a dado set using a second throat plate supplied as standard equipment.

Regards

[Wayne Watling]

Yup...that gorgeous stuff it up in Canada! And the combo is a sweet machine and looks quite at home in that shop!

Yep, and just as important is the after sales service and telephone support, its been A1 all the way by the SCM Group (Coopers and Horton) here in Toronto.

[Tom Zielinski]

Huh??? It sure does go up and down with the blade. Tilts with it too. Been using it for a year & I'm pretty sure it's saved me from kickback a few times.

My point is I haven't seen one on display in any store and the video and other info I have been able to track down didn't offer any of that information. Which I stated in my orginal post. That I hadn't been able to verify it.

I still, having had the oppertunity to use a slider, will save my money for one of those, possibly a combo since the other tools will be used and save me the space.

[John Russell]

Todd and Wayne,

I have been thinking about the jointer/planer combination rather than a full machine and keeping the Sawstop. Since both my wife and I do woodworking, I could see an argument for keeping the SS and adding a combination machine if space would allow and it might not, but Wayne's shop looks as if it might work!!!

The 410 elite and the Felder are the combination machines that look interesting to me ... I see the advantage when cross-cutting and squaring panels with the slider, but it is the rip part that makes me wonder if it offers any safety or orther advantages.

Nice machine....

[Todd Solomon]

Todd and Wayne,

I have been thinking about the jointer/planer combination rather than a full machine and keeping the Sawstop. Since both my wife and I do woodworking, I could see an argument for keeping the SS and adding a combination machine if space would allow and it might not, but Wayne's shop looks as if it might work!!!

The 410 elite and the Felder are the combination machines that look interesting to me ... I see the advantage when cross-cutting and squaring panels with the slider, but it is the rip part that makes me wonder if it offers any safety or orther advantages.

Nice machine....

The SS is the ultimate in safety, with it's retractable, braking blade. But the euro sliders are safer than traditional cabinet saws, too. They've been refined for decades. I can think of six features that make 'em safe for ripping (jeez, I sound like a salesman!):

1. Riving knife (Sawstop also has). I have never, ever had kick-back on my sliders in the 5 years that I've used them. The riving knife virtually eliminates the possibility, if properly adjusted.
2. High/low fence: Euro saws come with rip fences that can be flipped so that the top of the fence is very low (about .2" or so). This allows you to rip narrow widths, and allows room for your pushstick, often while using a blade guard.
3. Parallel cutting jig- Allows you to rip on the slider. This is an option for Felders. For MMs, you can make your own out of an Incra fence, or other ways.
4. Blade guards- Attach to the riving knife, and don't get in the way, so you won't be inclined to remove them. Optional overhead guard on some machines. My Felder K700S Plus has a giant clear window in the overhead guard, so you can see what you're cutting.
5. "Shortie fence"- You can slide the fence towards the front of the saw, so that it ends just as the cut begins, preventing the wood from being pinched between the fence and blade.
6. Ripping shoe and clamp- This is what Wayne referred to. You can straight-line rip rough stock safely on the slider, using these (shown in Felder and MM videos- kind of hard to describe).

I would encourage you to think about seperating the combo into a saw/shaper and jointer/planer, especially if you and your wife might be working at the same time. Full combos are more space efficient, but there's a little more time required to switch between modes.

Todd

[Joe Jensen]

The SS is the ultimate in safety, with it's retractable, braking blade. But the euro sliders are safer than traditional cabinet saws, too. They've been refined for decades. I can think of six features that make 'em safe for ripping (jeez, I sound like a salesman!):

1. Riving knife (Sawstop also has). I have never, ever had kick-back on my sliders in the 5 years that I've used them. The riving knife virtually eliminates the possibility, if properly adjusted.
2. High/low fence: Euro saws come with rip fences that can be flipped so that the top of the fence is very low (about .2" or so). This allows you to rip narrow widths, and allows room for your pushstick, often while using a blade guard.
3. Parallel cutting jig- Allows you to rip on the slider. This is an option for Felders. For MMs, you can make your own out of an Incra fence, or other ways.
4. Blade guards- Attach to the riving knife, and don't get in the way, so you won't be inclined to remove them. Optional overhead guard on some machines. My Felder K700S Plus has a giant clear window in the overhead guard, so you can see what you're cutting.
5. "Shortie fence"- You can slide the fence towards the front of the saw, so that it ends just as the cut begins, preventing the wood from being pinched between the fence and blade.
6. Ripping shoe and clamp- This is what Wayne referred to. You can straight-line rip rough stock safely on the slider, using these (shown in Felder and MM videos- kind of hard to describe).

I would encourage you to think about seperating the combo into a saw/shaper and jointer/planer, especially if you and your wife might be working at the same time. Full combos are more space efficient, but there's a little more time required to switch between modes.

Todd

Todd, do the Format saws have precision pointer systems for ripping? I've been using biesemeyer fences for over 20 years and the hairline pointer approach is fast and plenty accurate for me. I even have this on a dedicated crosscut station with a 14" Dewalt RAS. Can you equip a Format saw this way?

[Todd Solomon]

Todd, do the Format saws have precision pointer systems for ripping? I've been using biesemeyer fences for over 20 years and the hairline pointer approach is fast and plenty accurate for me. I even have this on a dedicated crosscut station with a 14" Dewalt RAS. Can you equip a Format saw this way?

The fence itself is directly over the ruler on my Felder, and it seems accurate in the way I work. It has a micro-adjust that makes it easy to make very small adjustments. I would think that you could retrofit something different to it, if you like. On the Felders, there's a digital rip fence option too, although it's mucho dinero. The scale's position can be adjusted as well. Probably the best way to know how you'd like it is to call Felder and/or Mini Max, and see if they can find someone that lives near you, that can show you a machine. You can also join the Felder and Mini Max Yahoo user's groups, and ask if someone could show you theirs.

http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/felder-woodworking/

http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/MiniMax-USA/

Todd

[Wayne Watling]

Todd and Wayne,
I have been thinking about the jointer/planer combination rather than a full machine and keeping the Sawstop. Since both my wife and I do woodworking, I could see an argument for keeping the SS and adding a combination machine if space would allow and it might not, but Wayne's shop looks as if it might work!!!

The 410 elite and the Felder are the combination machines that look interesting to me ... I see the advantage when cross-cutting and squaring panels with the slider, but it is the rip part that makes me wonder if it offers any safety or orther advantages.
Nice machine....

Here are some shots of the shortie fence Todd mentioned and the setup for ripping using the slider.

http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l227/woodworkingpics/Methods%20of%20work/shortiefence.jpg

http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l227/woodworkingpics/Methods%20of%20work/rippingontheslider.jpg

[lou sansone]

mm and felder both offer digital read outs. I used a bies for years on my cabinet saws and thought I could never live without it. the sliders are fine. I still check everything with a tape or a caliper. martin has it right with the motorized fence and digital read out. tiger stop makes one you can put on the felder or mm
lou

[John Russell]

Wayne and Todd,
Those ideas help and the images put the words into action. I think I can see the safety advantages of the slider while ripping. Very nice.
Thanks
John