Laser Bed Size Decision:Important Decision!

[Gary Gilbert]

As I write, I am preparing a business plan and financing information.

I noticed, for example, that a particular brand may have a bed size of 18" x 12".

What if I need to etch on an item that is, say, 20" long by something smaller (like 6"). (I can then move the part to etch other parts - I'm ok with that. . .)

Is there a way to have the part protrude out one side so that I can etch things larger in one dimension?

Especially intersted in the Epilog and Versa Laser systems.
This difference is a couple thousand - and at my point - this counts for a LOT!
I wouldn't want to sell myself short, but I don't need to spend an extra $2K or so just to get a couple more inches - I can split the job.

THANKS AGAIN!!!!!!!

Gary
Elkridge, MD

[Bill Cunningham]

Hi Gary... I think the versa laser has a pass through to put larger items in the cabinet, but the Epilog does not.. As for bed size, you have to decide what you are planning to do..
As far as I was concerened, the 12 x18 was going to be too small.. It's always best to buy bigger than you need, because you never know just 'what' you will need for sure..
I have a Epilog 24TT that does just about everthing I need, 'now' but my next machine will have a bigger bed because it would be nice to do some longer gun stocks etc.. The TT bed is 24 inches, and I can get a piece into it on an angle of up to 28" .. A bigger bed is nice, but you will also find that most of the stuff you do will fit in the smaller machine, it just nice to have that extra when you need it, and not have to turn a job down because it won't fit in your system

[Lee DeRaud]

I think the versa laser has a pass through to put larger items in the cabinet, but the Epilog does not.. That sounds backwards: the Versa definitely does not have a passthrough, dunno about the Epilog.

That said, the usefulness of that feature is probably minimal, because of the registration issues involved in splitting up most jobs.

[Rodne Gold]

I agree , pass thru is a red herring , all my lasers i have ever owned have pass thru and in all the time I have been lasering , I think I have used pass thru perhaps 3x. Bigger bed sizes are double edged swords , the bigger they are , the more power drops over the bed and more critical alignment becomes. One has to balance the cost and technical issues vs what you will lose by turning away the occasional job. I do however think 18 x 12 is too small for general jobbing.

[Gary Hair]

Mine is 38x20 and opens up on the front and back. I have used it fully several times in the 3 months that I have had it. I saw the posts talking about how you would never need it but "it just aint true".

Unless you are going to limit yourself to doing the same badges, plaques and trophies that everybody else does, you need a larger bed and doors that open.

I have engraved pool cues, guitars and even a door - all of them made me obscene amounts of money because nobody else could do it. If I was to limit myself to a smaller laser I would have had to pass up these jobs - that's not in my business plan.

I want to take the jobs that nobody else can do, or that they don't think they can do. No competition means price is not an issue anymore - you charge what is fair for the job. Don't shortcut yourself on your laser just to save a couple thousand bucks - I have made that much THIS WEEK on jobs that nobody else could do...

Gary

[Mike Null]

I working on my second machine after 8 years with a 25w, 12x24 machine. I would recommend you consider power before size. There were many times I could have used more power than the 25w but not too many times I needed extra space.

In 8 years I would guess that the times I missed jobs numbered fewer than 10. On many machines you can open the front door by using magnets to bypass the interlocks and that will get extra space for you. (for all those who want to raise a red flag on this, it's a lot safer than removing the blade guard from your saw) You solve registration problems by using a jig. I once did 200 church pew ends that were 36" in length.

I do agree that a 12x18 may be too limiting though.

[Keith Outten]

It is true that most will rarely use a pass thru cabinet. I went almost three years before I won a job that required a larger bed or a means of getting a larger job under the beam.

My Epilog Legend 24 has a front panel that is removable, it has several screws that have to be removed but it will open the front of the bed to larger jobs. I was engraving glass signs which were more profitable then any other job I have ever done. Dealing with registration is easy, all you need is a plan.

I'm with Gary on this one, the kind of profit in some jobs can be insane and my next Engraver will have pass thru doors, I won't even consider models that don't have this capability ever again.

.

[Joe Pelonio]

After 2-1/2 years there have only been 3 jobs come in that I had to pass on due to size, but I'd be lost with a 12x18. Mine's not that much bigger, 12x24, but that last 6" makes a big difference. For one thing many materials made for lasering come 12x24, like 1/4 sheets of Rowmark laminates. For production jobs the bigger the better for doing more at once and less material changes, but then you do need the power to be able to cut at the same settings the entire length. The "pass thru" area on my Epilog if you take the sides off is just about 6"x6" so only useful for things long and thin like bats, but I've never needed it and it's not recommended by the maker.

There are ways around the size issue for certain kinds of jobs, I think it would help us a lot to know what kind of work you will be doing.

[Jim Good]

I agree with Joe concerning the materials. Many materials are offered in the 12x24" size so I would not go any lower than that. I think that is reason enough to stay away from the 12x18. I would hate to trim my stock all the time!

In my research I have heard from several people that have a 12x18" bed and almost all of them say it was a mistake or at least say they wished they had upgraded to at least the 12x24".

Laserbuzz's designs are based on a 12x24" size and although you can move the pieces around to get it to fit a smaller size, it is a pain in the butt! :mad: I have some wood that is 11.875 x 22.75" and Buzz's designs need a little shifting to get it all to fit and that's a pain. (Luckily, new wood is on the way!) I wouldn't want to even think about it if I had a 12 x 18". I would end up using more sheets of wood and that would negate the lesser cost of the smaller bed pretty quick.

Unless you have a niche product that is satisfied with a smaller bed, I'd upsize those fries!!! :p

I hope that helps.

Jim

[Bill Cunningham]

That sounds backwards: the Versa definitely does not have a passthrough, dunno about the Epilog.

That said, the usefulness of that feature is probably minimal, because of the registration issues involved in splitting up most jobs.
Yup.. Yer right.. I keep forgetting that "versa" is a Universal Laser.. Before I bought the TT, I was interested in one that had a pass through, but there was no dealer in Canada, and the Closest Rep never answered my email, and the factory did not seem all that interested in following through with someone else to sell it to me, so I bought the TT from Mike Clarke..

As for passing things 'through' the sides of the Legend 24TT .. Has anyone ever done it? I'm looking at mine, and the table would have to raise up to the bottom of the side rail tracks to focus, so anything that went inside, would 'still' have to sit between the side tracks for the cross beam, and if it does that, then you don't have to remove the sides... There may be some really odd configurations that might do it, but I can't see how anything could pass through, and still not have the table push it up to the side rails trying to get focus.. Slight correction here: Putting a straight edge across it, and using the manual focus, there is .375" 'free space' to go through both sides, across the table, and still be able to manually focus.. The auto focus would have the table jamb the part into the rails first..

[Vicky Orsini]

I'm in the process of searching for a laser right now. I've seen demos of the Epilog Legend, Universal Versalaser and LaserPro Explorer (even though those are not the models I'm in the market for :rolleyes: ).

For Universal, I was considering the M-300. I was told that you can open the front door, but to run the machine with the door open you have to defeat the safety by putting magnets over the catches. The Versa does not have a front door to open at all.

Epilog is the same as the M-300, except their door doesn't open, you have to unbolt the front panel to get the functionality.

Both of these manufacturers will tell you that, while you can have the doors open while the machine is running, they do not recommend it for safety (read: legal) purposes.

LaserPro has the larger bed and pass-through doors both front and back.

I'm scheduled to see a Trotec tomorrow. I'll let you know how that goes. ;)

[Bruce Volden]

Yup.. Yer right.. I keep forgetting that "versa" is a Universal Laser.. Before I bought the TT, I was interested in one that had a pass through, but there was no dealer in Canada, and the Closest Rep never answered my email, and the factory did not seem all that interested in following through with someone else to sell it to me, so I bought the TT from Mike Clarke..

As for passing things 'through' the sides of the Legend 24TT .. Has anyone ever done it? I'm looking at mine, and the table would have to raise up to the bottom of the side rail tracks to focus, so anything that went inside, would 'still' have to sit between the side tracks for the cross beam, and if it does that, then you don't have to remove the sides... There may be some really odd configurations that might do it, but I can't see how anything could pass through, and still not have the table push it up to the side rails trying to get focus.. Slight correction here: Putting a straight edge across it, and using the manual focus, there is .375" 'free space' to go through both sides, across the table, and still be able to manually focus.. The auto focus would have the table jamb the part into the rails first..

I have taken the sides off mine many a time!!!! mainly for gunstocks. You're still limited to around 6" in width though. On the subject of larger bed size...I could make a killing with the glass shops in this area, but can only do a 11" X 30" area with the LMI's. I would love a larger bed!!!


Bruce

[Lee DeRaud]

I agree with Joe concerning the materials. Many materials are offered in the 12x24" size so I would not go any lower than that.Random note from a 12x16 (Versalaser) owner: a lot of the 12x24 material I'm seeing has been cut down by the vendor from 24x48 (or larger) sheets...which would also divide nicely into 12x16s.

Whatever...the limiting factor for me tends to be power, but of course I'm not using this thing to run a business either.

[Tony Lenkic]

TO ALL

HAVE YOU EVER CONSIDERED LOOKIND AT XENETECH MACHINE.
A FREIND OF MINE OWNS LATEST MODEL 36" x 24" AND HE IS VERY
HAPPY WITH IT.:)
BEST OF ALL WHEN YOU PURCHASE XENETECH MACHINE YOU GET
GRAPHIC SOFTWARE YOU WILL LOVE. IT IS VERY EASY TO LEARN
AND LOADED WITH FEATURES, LOGOS AND FONTS.
I OWN UNIVERSAL V400 LASER SINCE Y2K, AND XENETECH 16X25 ROTARY MACHINE SINCE 1992 (UPGRADED IN 1995).
BOTH MACHINES ARE RUN BY XWG SOFTWARE. LASER IS ALSO RUN BY COREL V12 AT PRESENT TIME AND X3 WILL BE NEXT SHORTLY.
AS FOR BED SIZE, IF YOU CAN ALOCATE EXTRA $K DO IT. SOONER OR LATER TIME WILL COME WHEN YOU WISH YOU HAVE THAT EXTRA COUPLE OF INCHES SO THAT YOU DON'T SEND A CUSTOMER AWAY.

[Dave Fifield]

Tony,

Welcome to the SMC forums. Perhaps no one has told you previously, but on the internet, ALL CAPITALS is considered to be SHOUTING!! You don't have to shout around here to get heard :)

Gary,

On laser bed size, I'm in the "big is best" camp. I was continually finding limitations with my old 24" x 12" laser. My new 36" x 24" is so much nicer. Granted, it does cost a lot more, but it's very much worth it IMO.

On the newer Epilog lasers like mine, the front panel can be removed (just a few screws - doesn't take more than a minute) to allow me to engrave longer objects if needed.

Like others have said, it all depends on what jobs you are going to take on. Definately you will not be happy with an 18" x 12" model though. Spend the extra few thou and get a 24" x 12" model at least.

Final comment - if this couple of thou makes such a large difference to your business plan, then I fear you may already be in trouble. There will undoubtedly be things you have forgotten to budget for and equipment problems or unpaid invoices etc. that will cost you waaay more than just a couple of thou. Your buffer should be much larger IMO.

:Dave F.

[Mitchell Andrus]

My laser at 18 x 29 (engraving area) is just big enough. I can fit larger pieces under the rails, and the pass-through allows much bigger stuff to get through the machine 18 inches at a time. The limiting factor wasn't money, but space. I would have gotten a larger one if I could have fit it into my shop - 24 x 36 - Oooooh. I build furniture and table legs aren't 24". I've also bumped 60W pretty hard too.

I am in the "buy tools that you'll grow into, not out of" camp. I've always regretted buying something cheap 'for now'. Follow your gut. If you need bigger, get it.

[Michael Vaughn]

Does the pass thru capability also mean that a piece is automatically moved/advanced into the machine, or do you have to move it each segment?

Are there other lasers engeavers besides LaserPro that have this feature?


Thanks in advance :D

[Vicky Orsini]

I believe the piece is static. You have to physically move it and engrave a section at a time.

I've learned that most of the major manufacturers do have a "front door" that opens to some extent. They will all tell you that they do not advise you to open the front door for safety/legal purposes, but they will show you how to do it if you really want to. ;) The VersaLaser is the only one I know of that does not have the front door at all.

Having said that, I can say that the Trotec Speedy 100 is a little more difficult to open the front door because all the electronics are housed in the front panel. It's do-able, but it's more of a mission. The Speedy 300 is easier because it does not have the electronics on the front panel.

None of them (except for LaserPro) have full front-and-back pass-through functionality because they all have their laser tubes housed on the back panel. LaserPro is the only one (that I know of) that houses the laser tube below the table.

Hope this helps! :)

[Keith Outten]

Xenetech has full capacity pass thru capability, the tube is mounted on the end of the cabinet.

We just ordered a Xenetech XLT1325-60 at CNU and it should be delivered by the 20th of December :)

[Vicky Orsini]

Ah, yes! I forgot about them. They weren't on my 6 page spreadsheet of contenders, so I don't know much about them. ;)

[Bill Cunningham]

I have taken the sides off mine many a time!!!! mainly for gunstocks. You're still limited to around 6" in width though. On the subject of larger bed size...I could make a killing with the glass shops in this area, but can only do a 11" X 30" area with the LMI's. I would love a larger bed!!!


Bruce
It would seem that you can remove the 'left' side and pass through onto the table, but if it sticks out the 'right' side, the table pushes it into the side (the hole does not go up as far on the right as the left does) about 1.5" from the focus point.. So if I 'stick a stock' through the left side I can engrave it providing it does not pass through the hole on the right side..

[David Epperson]

Not sure how meaningful my input will be here as I've never done any woodworking laser work. I have worked in a few industries that have used lasers to mark product however - wire and cable in particular. That company engraved wire legends in the EPDM (rubber) jacket 0.015" deep at 50ft per minute for thousands of feet on the fly. But we used every bit of the 80W that the mirrors would stand too. (100W laser tuned down to the capacity of the mirrors). Seems like we used a SynRad laser and an early version of WinMark software. The vertical height of the legend was limited to one or two lines of text due to the process speed - the engraving area of this system was "only" about 4"x6" but with the work passing continuously through that area, using a digital encoder for registration, only the height was a limiting factor - in practice we could have engraved an area 6" tall by 47 miles long.

[Bruce Volden]

It would seem that you can remove the 'left' side and pass through onto the table, but if it sticks out the 'right' side, the table pushes it into the side (the hole does not go up as far on the right as the left does) about 1.5" from the focus point.. So if I 'stick a stock' through the left side I can engrave it providing it does not pass through the hole on the right side..


Bill


That is correct, also I have an outfeed roller set up (to the left) which enables me to put the whole gun on thereby eliminating the need for stock removal!!!


Bruce

[Bruce Volden]

Not sure how meaningful my input will be here as I've never done any woodworking laser work. I have worked in a few industries that have used lasers to mark product however - wire and cable in particular. That company engraved wire legends in the EPDM (rubber) jacket 0.015" deep at 50ft per minute for thousands of feet on the fly. But we used every bit of the 80W that the mirrors would stand too. (100W laser tuned down to the capacity of the mirrors). Seems like we used a SynRad laser and an early version of WinMark software. The vertical height of the legend was limited to one or two lines of text due to the process speed - the engraving area of this system was "only" about 4"x6" but with the work passing continuously through that area, using a digital encoder for registration, only the height was a limiting factor - in practice we could have engraved an area 6" tall by 47 miles long.



I'm too old to keep sumtin' like that loaded:D :D :D


Bruce

[Bill Cunningham]

Bill


That is correct, also I have an outfeed roller set up (to the left) which enables me to put the whole gun on thereby eliminating the need for stock removal!!!


Bruce

Might be worthwhile doing a little metal work on the left side, and install a door that seals well, but eliminates the need to actually unscrew the darn thing.. I wonder why Epilog didn't do this, just for the extra brownie points, when promoting the machine?

[Michael Vaughn]

Keith,

Do you have the pricing sheets available in electronic form that I might possibly get from you? I'm also interested in the smaller 1325 model

[Keith Outten]

Michael,

I'm not sure that Xenetech would approve of my posting their prices publicly since I am not an authorized distributor or representative of their company. I suggest that you contact them and request a brochure and price list. I found their prices comparable to other manufacturers when I compared machines with similar features...well as close as I could anyway. Each manufacturer has one or more features that are unique to their product line. The full capacity pass through capability is important to me and I feel it allowed me to purchase a smaller bed without sacrificing engraving capacity for the type of work I have to accomplish, and saves money as well. I have a huge number of Corian signs to produce and the Xenetech will be run very hard on a continuous basis for long periods of time. We also need the most flexible machine possible as our engraving jobs and sign production needs are very diverse.

I contacted an individual who is one of the most knowledgeable in the business to ascertain his advice concerning which machine he felt is the best quality on the market right now. The Xenetech was his first choice based on the quality of their mechanical features and lots more. Everything I have learned suggests that the Xenetech Lasers have top notch features and they are built to last.

Although I can't personally recommend their machine yet I am looking forward to receiving the XLT1325-60 next week and putting it through it's paces. You can be sure I will be reporting back here to let everyone know how the machine performs. My research produced nothing but positive information about Xenetech but I suggest that you do as I have and take a very close look at their product line before you make any decisions.


Xenetech Phone# 225-752-0225
www.xenetech.com
sales@xenetech.com

Look at the picture below, that's what I call pass through capability. This machine could pay for itself in just a few months just engraving glass directories with this kind of engraving access. Of course I doubt this is recommended to be used for this purpose by the manufacturer but it is possible :)

.

[Brent Vander Weil]

(CUT AND PASTE FROM A PREVIOUS DISCUSSION THREAD)

Well I am probably the one of newest guys on the forum... but I feel like I got a good deal... Due to the financial restrictions I placed on myself I would only allow 10K... So I ended up buying a re-conditioned Epilog MINI 1812 35W from Rob over at UsedLasers dot com.

It was reconditioned by Epilog at their facility and shipped direct to me... I got it on a Fri. afternoon and played with it all day Saturday... I had my first project completed by 7PM that night... I made about 20 2 1/2" medalions from clear acrylic with individual names for a prize for my wife's first grade class...

If I had done different and would have been willing to exceed the budget I had layed down I would have gone with the 2412 MINI 45W so it would take the sheets of 12x24 that are most common...

I originally started loking for the laser as a hobby machine with a potential for some side income... now I am hooked and I am going to try to make some cash with this one so I can get a bigger one and keep on going and growing my income potential... This is fun :-)

[Jeanette Brewer]

Do you have the pricing sheets available in electronic form that I might possibly get from you? I'm also interested in the smaller 1325 model

Michael,

If you'll email me at jeanettez@zengravingconcepts.com (remove the Z's), I'll reply with a Xenetch laser price list.

[Mike Hood]

I have a Pinnacle ZX series (40W) and can't see now how I'd every get by with a smaller table size. I can cut single pieces as large as 38" x 20" and routinely work with both doors (front AND back) open. If you're working large pieces, you'll quickly fall in love with it.

I build UAVs (Unmanned Aerial Vehicles) and many of the parts I cut are a full 96" long and 22" wide. You won't be able to pull that off on a small bed machine... especially one that doesn't allow pass through front and back.

Never heard anyone complain their laser is too big... or too powerful. :)

[Dave Jones]

I have a 12"x24" Epilog Mini-24. If I had gotten the 18" wide version I now know I would have regretted it. A month after I got it I had to turn down a project that would have required a 36" wide bed. I wasn't ready at the time to buy a second machine, but I have no doubt that my next one is going to be wider than 24". The smaller things that I've been doing are fine on the 24" unit, but as I go along I can see more times that a larger bed would be useful.