Is Gel Stain the answer?

[Owen Gregg]

Hi all,

I've just learned I'm to be the father of twins this upcoming summer. Now the Honey-Do list is 3x as big as normal. My problem is with crib finishing. I'm planning on building 2 cribs and the matching dresser/Changing table that were featured in the latest 2 issues of WOOD magazine. I'm planning on using Birch plywood and "Colonial Maple" as the hardwood trim. I was wondering if gel stain may bring them both to a more consistent color or if I would be better off dying them. My wife doesn't care what kind of wood it is as long as it ends up a very deep/dark red or brown. I was hoping the dark color may make it easier on me.

Before you ask, no, I don't know exactly what "colonial" maple is. It just happens to be the cheapest hardwood available at the lumber yard and I haven't been able to make a trip up there to pick up a piece. They also sell hard and soft maple, which is making me further wonder what exactly "colonial maple" is. I haven't started building them yet, as I want to make sure they will look nice when finished. I don't want to get all the way to the finishing stage just to get the daylights frustrated out of me.

Any suggestions are appreciated,
Owen

[Steve Schoene]

I don't know what "Colonial Maple" is either, unless it is the heart wood. Maple heartwood is darker and more varied--sometimes rather dramatically. You should look at it before buying. If that isn't it, you should ask what exactly what they are selling. Colonial maple isn't a standard hardwood industry term as far as I know.

If you want maple to be dark, dye is the way to go. That way you can get dark without obscuring the grain with lots of pigment, and dye tends not to be blotchy either. They aren't mutually exclusive--you can start with a dye, lightly seal it, and then apply a gel stain to get a color with more depth.

[Dick Latshaw]

Here's their definition of 'Colonial lumber' from the Garreson Lumber web site.

"Colonial grade, rustic or character marked lumber can include heartwood, sapwood, knots, burls, swirls, bird pecks, color streaks, and spots. It’s popular among flooring and cabinet manufacturers because buyers like furniture and floors with character."

I would guess it is the hardwood equivalent of Knotty Pine. YMMV.

[Howard Acheson]

>>"Colonial grade, rustic or character marked lumber can include heartwood, sapwood, knots, burls, swirls, bird pecks, color streaks, and spots. It’s popular among flooring and cabinet manufacturers because buyers like furniture and floors with character."


Sounds like a lot of marketing gobblygook so they can raise the price of junk wood. I would be sure that I saw what it was before I spent any money.

[Dick Latshaw]

Sounds like a lot of marketing gobblygook so they can raise the price of junk wood. I would be sure that I saw what it was before I spent any money.
As they say on AOL, ME TOO.

[Dennis Peacock]

Colonial Maple is also a Minwax stain color. I've used it to mix a custom color before and works rather well. Adds a nice warm redish brown to the wood.

If you're using Birch plywood (softwood in the hardwood species) and Maple, you need to use Soft Maple so the finish will be more consistant in color.
You can also control the color consistency with applying a "sizing" to the wood before staining. You can mix up your own with 1 part white glue and 5 parts water. Brush it on, let sit about a minute or two and then wipe lightly with a clean dry cloth. Don't rub too much or you'll start to remove the sizing.

Best thing to do is experiment with some scrap around the shop to see how it will work. I've learned the hard way to try my finishing technique on scrap first. :o

[Owen Gregg]

Colonial Maple is not what I'm wanting. Went and looked at it today. It's got all kinds of "Character" that I wouldn't want for these projects; knots, streaks, uneven color, etc. It was the most tempting offer at less than $2 bd/ft.

Now I'm looking at red oak for the projects, which honestly disappoints me a little bit, because everything I see is red oak. It's the most feasible financial option at this point. Despite that, this will surely be the most fun I've had building anything, because I'm very excited.

Now the question is, what is the best way to get a good dark red or brown on red oak? Is dye still a good option to explore or might I be better off with normal Minwax stain? I'm not really excited about raising the grain and sanding it off, but would do it in a heartbeat if it gets me a better finish. Suggestions? The color consistency may not be a huge issue now where I'm using the same wood for all external parts. Any finishing tips appreciated.

Thanks again,
Owen

[Tim Sproul]

Now the question is, what is the best way to get a good dark red or brown on red oak?


The answer to your question has to be another question. What is the look you are striving for?

Dye and stain have different outcomes....either or both in combination can successfully give you a dark red/brown coloring. Nevermind bringing up toning or glazing to give you additional looks compared to staining and/or dyeing the bare wood.

[Owen Gregg]

I'm wanting a very dark red or brown finish on red oak without a huge amount of hassle, i.e. this isn't a project I'll practice polishing on;) . Ease of application at all finishing stages of this project is a strong consideration, but not at a large sacrifice to the final appearance. Glazing is something I'll hopefully try on a future piece of furniture, but for right now simplicity is what I feel will work best for me.

This is totally subjective, and I ask for advice mainly because all of my stain selection comes from the borg, and for now it consists solely of Minwax products (Though I have thrown away any and all traces of PolyShades due to good advice from board members). I was under the impression that if I used a water based stain I would need to raise the grain. Is there a way I could avoid that step by using an alternative? If I had to pick a color, it would be a very deep mahogany.

I'm thinking I might use shellac for the topcoat just for repairability purposes, but poly is seeming a good option, too, because of it's protective properties. Safety for children is a concern, but for right now I can't think of a usual finish that would be dangerous to them after fully cured-this is barring paint, of course. Any information in that regard would be appreciated as well.

Thanks again,
Owen

*As a sidenote, I lack any kind of spraying equipment.

[Steve Schoene]

Assuming you will be using red oak, but still wanting a dark mahogany finish, a dye is likely to be the best way to get to a dark color. Then, put on a coat of shellac thinned to about 1 1/2 lb. cut. When this is dry, lightly sand off any raised grain with 320 grit. (Take care not to cut through, but if you do touching up with a bit more of the same dye works pretty well. The dye will only "take" very much where you cut through.) Then, for just a little extra effort you can add a lot of depth by wiping on one coat of pigmented stain. This will mostly lodge in the oak pores and allow some complexity of the finish that can be very attractive. Just wipe on, let set for a few minutes and then wipe off any excess. When this is dry, I would use a wiping varnish for top coat. Easy, more protective against cleaning chemicals, and attractive. Waterlox Original/Sealer works well, and gives a nice mellow gloss that looks like you spent a lot of time rubbing it out.

One other note: for the plywood, I assume to be used for head and foot boards, you should look for plain sliced veneer, not rotary cut veneer. The rotary cut give pretty wild looking grain arches (cathedrals) that scream cheap oak. The plain sliced costs a bit more, but will look like real furniture. Remember that these cribs will probably get used by your grandchildren, and possibly by nieces and nephews that may come in the meantime. That's because the piece you built in your shop with the love of a father will be so much nicer than any that could be bought in a store.

[Tim Sproul]

I'll add some (hopefully) helpful hints/advice about the finishing schedule that Steve suggests.

I'm assuming you'll use water soluble dye since that is the easiest to apply without spraying.

Raise the grain with a thorough wetting with clean water. This should be a wiping down of the piece with a dripping wet rag. Let it dry - time depends on the environment of your shop. Lightly hand sand with 320 or 400 grit...just enough so it feels smooth to your fingers. This hand sanding typically requires little pressure and maybe 2 - 6 passes to knock off the raised grain. Apply the dye. Let dry. Wipe the dye down with a wet (not dripping wet this time) rag if the application of dye wasn't uniform/even to even out the coloring. Apply dye again if it is now too light. You can add dye in multiple coats to get darker coloring if one application isn't dark enough. Remember to judge the darkness when the dye is still wet.....or better is to complete the finish schedule on some test boards. Let the dye dry and then apply the dewaxed shellac. I've only sprayed shellac after dye so I've not had to worry about the dye bleeding into the shellac.....for this, I'd be certain to pour some shellac into a secondary container so that you don't add carry dye from the project into your main container of shellac. You'll also probably want to apply a thin coat of shellac first...to help reduce bleeding of the dye. I wouldn't worry about complete coverage...just wipe quickly. Apply second and more coats as needed to get complete sealing of the dye before you sand the shellac layer level. Bleeding of the dye can cause the uniform coloring to become not so uniform.

If you want to further color with stain/glaze as Steve suggests...you now need to decide if you've sealed the wood enough or not. Seal more to get less staining. When you wipe off the stain, I've found it helpful to use something like a terry pad as a backer for clean rags....have lots of clean rags available, changing the rags as soon as you start leaving stain on the level surfaces....use a light touch when wiping or you'll wind up pulling stain out of the pores. Let this stain dry thoroughly before topcoating.

Last thing. Seriously investigate spray finishing. Almost everyone else that looks at your projects will pay most attention to the finish...and then comes the design. They almost never care about the joinery.

[Mark Patoka]

Owen,
I use Watco Danish Oil on my oak projects and then topcoat it with Deft or Watco lacquer or Arm-R-Seal. Watco Black Walnut is the color I prefer. I've also used Minwax Red Oak, Red Mahogany and Dark Walnut stains but you'll have to try some samples to see if it's the color you want. I've used this on an old dresser I refinished and an aquarium stand. The finish has held up very well and looks good after 10+ years.

I did try dyeing some oak once to get a dark red but ran into problems with the water-base not "breaking" to get into the pores easily. I wasn't pleased with the result but also didn't pursue my application technique since it was only for a sample piece.

[Chip Olson]

I have no useful finishing advice, but I just wanted to say Congratulations!!! on the upcoming twins. Get a lot of woodworking in now; you're not going to have much time for it for a while...

[Owen Gregg]

Thanks for the all the advice guys. The processes you described will be a little new to me, but not completely, which is awesome. Just enough new stuff to fry my brain and just enough familiar stuff to keep me sane. The building will hopefully start in the next month or so. In the mean time, I'll try to purchase some different dyes and experiment to see what might work best for the color I'm wanting. I'll try to keep this updated as I go.

Believe me, I am really hoping for some spray equipment soon, but for right now, it's on hold!

[Mike Cutler]

Owen.
Gel Stains are very easy to apply and get nice results with. Like all stains, they can be played with to achieve a different result.
This is a series of pics of a small Limbert style Taboret. It is made from Home Depot quality redoak (legs), and some scrap white oak (Top, and shelf). The customer,LOML, did not want a "new looking finish". She wanted it to look like the table was a well taken care of period piece and had been polished numerous times. The "streaking, and building/darkening at the edges" was intentional to simulate years of use and polishing.
Both woods reacted to the stain differently. The grain structure of white and red oak are different. They are actually opposite.
The stain used is Bartleys Brown Mahogany Gel Stain.

[Matt P]

Nice piece!

[Mike Cutler]

Nice piece!

Thank you Matt.

This was my first piece of furniture, after a 20 year hiatus from woodworking (Other than house type finish work, and cabinets that is).
It was a very simple deisgn from one of the magazines at the time. I forget which now. It was supposed to be a plant stand, and just something to build to get my "chops" back on woodworking. I think it came out fairly nice.
The Gel Stain was actually used because the original stain came out vastly different on the two types of oak and looked very bad. Really awful actually. The gel stain was the coverup and the fix.;)