Major tool purchasing decision input request

[Mike Holbrook]

I have done many searches and hours of reading on this sight trying to find specific solutions to some of my tool purchasing challenges. My research has provided some great ideas but...I am in a little different situation than many of the people here who do the majority of their work in their shop.

History/background

I have been doing a bunch of construction in the last few years, finished the basement, made a play room for my daughter in an unfinished attic, wood and tool storage building, chicken houses (actually 2 of these), deck around the pool, rebuilt a 60x30 pole barn into an enclosed building with heating, air, septic system, bath, small kitchen... Next I will be enclosing a room below the deck on the side of the house, busting some walls out between storage, mud room and the garage and installing doors awnings and more storage space.. Then there is the Green House/Potting project..

Ok I have given up on the idea of ever finishing, the list just keeps getting longer. The projects are getting smalller and starting to involve more trim work and more technical (fun) projects like cabinets though. I do not spend full time doing this work but I do go long periods doing mostly construction/carpentry work. That is to say, I may not spend full time working with wood construction but I think I do a good deal more of it than your average Joe. Although I hope to be doing more and more cabinet, furniture projects, realistically I realize that one foot will remain in construction/carpentry for some time to come.

Dust Extraction

I have a couple major shortcomings in my growing tool collection. First is dust extraction. I spend some long hours in rooms where large quantities of wood and ply wood are being cut and have no good system to deal with the health issues. I have a shop (ok you guessed it its under construction :)) Unfortunately a good deal of the work I do occurs at locations on my property other than my shop, which is why it is not finished. I have found it hard to justify any sort of stationary dust collection system for the shop since to date not much of the work I do actually occurs there. Well I guess I did rip about 500 board feet of 1x6 on the table saw to make 1000 feet of 1x3 for trim earlier in the week. I know there are tools buried under that dust somewhere, but the big ole shop vac and most of my other tools are way off in another building... sigh.

I think I need to start with some kind of mobile dust extraction system that works with my tools, something like the Fein or Festool systems. From what I read here, it is best not to let that dust get in the air to start with. Some of my wood cutting I have been able to do outside, but more and more it tends to happen inside one of 3 or 4 locations. I bought an EZ Smart guide and table which are about to need some serious attention due to wear. I also have a big old heavy miter saw and "mobile" stand that I would like to replace with something: a little easier to move around, better at more things (cabinets).

Cabinet making

Another place I think my tools fall short is in cabinet making. I have a new General Contractors Table Saw and a decent Drill Press. Unfortunately I am often working in places other than my shop. I have been studying the Festool videos at the McFeely's sight and it looks like their table, saw and router set up are designed to make the european type cabinets that I plan to make to get started in cabinet making.

Another major factor for me is noise. The family tells me I am going deaf, or I think thats what they said :). That ancient Makita Router sounds like a jet taking off, I know its not helping. The old spindly router table needs to go too. It appears to me that I could cut: dados, rabbits, round overs and drill the shelf holes I will need using the Festool system. I have extended rails on my table saw that could take a nice saw mounted router like the Bench Dog. I could use the Veritas or Bench Dog router table systems. The Festool Router with the Festool CS and Table just seems more versatile and much easier to move around. I just do not know how much one can actually do with the Festool system vs a dedicated router table.

Summary
I like the EZ for cutting full size sheet goods, hopefully outdoors. I am thinking about Festool: CS, table, dust extractor and maybe a Router. I realize that updating and adding to my EZ guide and table may solve some of my problems but the compactness, organization, and especially the dust colllection of the Festool system really appeals to me. I am so sick of moving tools between locations and trying to keep some simblance of organization. Moving and locating tools needs to take up a much smaller portion of my time. My back and neck have some problems and lighter/smaller is better too.

I imagine I could put something together with my existing EZ Smart gear and a Fein dust extractor that would work too. At first blush though Festool just seems to offer more organization, versatility (for my type work) in a more compact easier to move around system.

I see that there are people here who use Festool and Fein or both and I hope to get some input on what advantages/problems there are with the two sytems in my type environment. I think that my "environment" may not be the norm for posters here, although I believe I am moving more towards woodworking and cabinet making. I am sure there are alternatives I am not thinking of too.

I respect the enthusiastic support people on this forum show for Dino and EZ Smart and count myself among those dare I say zealots :) However, I am not as young as I use to be and doing all the construction work I do (mostly by myself) raises some challenges that I think may be better answered with some other equipment.

My biggest concern with Festool is replacing pricy dust bags and special CS blades. I do some pretty major cutting jobs and can forsee running through quite a few dust bags, HEPA filters, saw blades....but then I imagine a Fein solution would present similar financial challenges. Since my work saves some major $ on construction costs though the money is not the biggest factor. I would like to keep doing this work for quite a few years and just want to do what I can to insure that my back, neck and lungs can go the distance.

I think this next purchase I make will kind of commit me to a direction in terms of dust collection and the utility of my tools. I am trying to do some research to make sure I do not head down a path that will end up with too many surprises and brambles.

Thanks for your attention to how ever much of this lenghty post you may have wadded through.

[Cecil Arnold]

Mike,

I think you are on the right track. Festool will meet your needs for both portability and dust collection, IMHO. It will not replace a cab saw, but for mobile work is a great system. Unless you are experiencing health or allergy problems, I don't feel the HEPA filters are necessary, stay with the standard, and consider cleaning them between replacements, same with the bags if that aspect of the system is a big bother.

[Mike Holbrook]

Thanks for the input Cecil. I am a little foggy on the Featool bags and filters. Some of what I have read seemes to suggest that the Festool extractor can be used without bags, but I sort of got the impression that it was not good for the tool or ones health to use it that way.

[Cecil Arnold]

Mike, I wouldn't use the extractor without a bag, but I have reused a bag. They offer regular filters and HEPA, which are much finer.

[Mike Holbrook]

I am also wondering about sizes of the various tools. The TS 55 EQ Plunge Saw has a 6 1/4 blade and the TS 75 EQ has an 8 1/4. I do not see the need to cut any deeper than 1 1/2 inches at the moment which I believe the 55 will handle. I think the thinner guide and base mena it has a similar capacity to my EZ Smart with a 7 1/4 blade. I guess when I start working with more hardwood I might find some times when greater capacity would be nice, but I am not sure it is worth lugging the larger, heavier saw around just in case I need it .

The medium sized OF 1400 EQ Router seems like it would handle the dados, rabbits, groves and round overs that I plan on making. I will be carrying these things around to diferent sites so the size and weight become larger issues. I beleive there is a different guide available for the router. I read something about holes drilled in it to help make 5mm shelf holes in the sides of cabinets. I am wondering if the saw will work with the Router guide as I am not wild about having to carry two around.

The Dust Extractor worries me a little as the capacities of the bags do not sound very high. The largest (CT 33 )has less than half the capacity of my 18 Gallon Shop Vac. I read that the large dust extractor teamed with one of the larger tools may reguire a 20 AMP circuit which may be why these tools seem to lean towards the smaller side elelctrically. Fortunately I did get a new sub panel with 230 and 20 AMP circuits put in the shop last year. I may want to use these tools where I do not have a 20AMP circuit readily available although I do have a long 10 guage extension cord that could probably get me to one if I had to have it.

In regard to tables I am thinking I would go with the larger one as I plan to cut and route a great deal of plywood and boards for cabinets on it. I can cut full sheets or big pieces on the EZ Table but I am kinda hoping to not have to lug it around all the time.

Any thoughts on the various models of the Festool or the Fein tools would be appreciated.

[Charles McKinley]

Hi Mike,

Festool and the new Oneida cyclone you put on the shop vac sound like they would fit your needs. With the cost of bags and filters the $200 for the Onedia unit would be saved rather quickly. Do you already have a Fein vac? If yes, it will work with the Festool tools. If not there is usually a pretty good discount with each tool ordered or a package deal offered. It sounds like you have already done your research. There just aren't many systems available in the states yet like the Festool set up.

For onsite work it will be hard to beat. Check out Per Swenson, Frank Pello, and ther is one other person that I can't place right now that use Festool alot. There was also someone who built there own systanier center to move the stuff around. Try searching for panneled room The other person I'm thinking of did an awesome solid wood raised pannled room for a client. He talked about being able to use the saw in clients homes.

Bob Marino is a Festool Rep and quite a nice guy.

Hope this helps

[Steve Rowe]

Mike,
On the vacuums: I have both the Fein Mini-turbo and the Festool CT-22. Performance wise, in my judgement they are about the same. The Festool is slightly quieter than the Fein by my less than fully calibrated ears. The bags for the Fein are slightly more expensive than the Festool. I like the hose on the Festool better than the Fein. The Festool also has variable suction and auto-start which the Fein model I have does not. I haven't changed the suction setting since purchase over 3 years ago and can say that I don't even know why it is there. The auto-start feature I like. The bigger Fein vacuums have this feature.

I have the OF-1400 router and like it better than my other routers for most operations. It is quieter than any other router I have including PC, Bosch, and Hitachi. The plunge handle is quite different from other routers and I don't find it as comfortable as other more conventional routers when using with dovetail jigs. That may or may not be of concern for how you use a router. While I really like the Festool router, I would not mount it in a router table - there may be others that have done this but to me it looks like it would be an awkward setup.

I have the older AFT-55 CS and the dust collection on it works reasonably well but not perfect but orders of magnitude better than on my PC CS. The newer TS-55 has features that I would like over my current saw but - the one I have is the one I have. One of advantages of the Festool CS is plunge capability. If you have need of this, there aren't too many other saws that have this capability. Also, if you get the Festool CS, you are pretty much roped into buying their blades which are expensive but also of high quality. If you like the EZ guide system, Dino advised me that you can use the Festool saw with the EZ Guide.

Steve

[Mike Holbrook]

Thanks guys you are great, that is exactly the kind of information I was hoping to get.

Charles, no, I do not have a Fein dust extractor, all I have is the big 18 gallon Shop Vac from Lowes. I will check some of those posts you mention. I have read some of them in the past but could not remember the poster names to go back to them.

Charles I do not quite understand what "the Oneida Cyclone you put on the shop vac" is but I will add it to my research list. I think Oneida makes room dust collectors, which is another item I am thinking of investing in soon.

Thanks for the review on the OF 1400 router Steve. I was kinda hoping to use the router on a Festool multipurpose table instead of in another dedicated router table and it sounds like that has worked for you. Yea, quiet is very good for me. So I can use the Festool saw on the EZ Smart guide, thats a bonus. Although I am not sure what the cutting depth will be, it should work great for cutting larger pieces. I can just leave the 2 EZ Smart guides connected and on the EZ table for those long cuts that the EZ guide shines on.

[Jim Dailey]

Hi Mike,

I have both the Festool CT22 vacuum & a Fein Turbo. Both are great vacuums, however I prefer the Festool for most of my sanding & tools because of the variable suction. I re-use the bags 5-6 times or more. I use the Fein for dirty jobs or bulk cleanup. Since the hoses fit either vacuum, a real benefit for me allowing easy swapping between them. In your case you could use the noisy 18 gal for the bulk work & dedicate the CT 22 to the sanders & other tools.

The Festool line up of tools in general really work great with the vacuum (exceptions that work "OK" would be the RAS 115 rotary sander/grinder, the LS 130 EQ in-line sander with some of it's pads, and the sabersaw. Although each of these are tremendous tools in their niches.). I base this on my experience using my collection three different model saws, 9 different model sanders, 2 model routers, and a drill. Benefits I found of using the Festool "system" start to compound as you add tools & your familiarity increases with how to use the tools together and adapting or in my case changing the way I've worked for years, make that decades. Although I have read many positive reviews of the EZ guide system, I can't see a reason why you'd want to use the Festool saws or routers on the EZ guide rails. However adapting other makers saws without rails to the EZ guide makes allot of sense.

The EZ guide does seem based on my memory to have a larger work table for I believe a lower price than the Festool. So if you looking of the largest work table of the least cost the EZ smart has the leg up. But I have been using two folding saw horses, (2) 2x6'-8' & a sheet of foam board for cutting my 4x8 sheet goods. This generally is how most Festool users are using the plunge saws to cut sheet goods based on the Festool Forum on Yahoo. However when you start using the saw & routers with the Festool MFT (Multi Function Table) again the system comes into play. I have a MFT 1080 & have picked up a pair of 79" rails so at some point in the future, I will build a large work shop table. On the Festool USA site there is a great article for download written by Jerry Work about how he uses the MFT's & large shop made MFT's replacing traditional woodworking benches. One person posted pictures of his large shop made MFT that uses a motorcycle hydraulic lift to change heights of the table thus using it as a assembly table & work bench.

The manuals writen by Rick Christopherson for the AFT 65, the TS 65 & OF 1400 offer many insights on use of the tools with the rails. John Lucas's WorkShopDemo's sites shows various uses of the Festool tools.

I agree with the post about the Festool routers as better suited for hand work than inverted in a router table.

Today we woodworkers have so many wonderful tools available & thus ways to achieve the same functional results. For example dovetails cut by hand, or with a band saw, or with a router and jig. The Festool system is another way to achieve a result, but that same result can be achieved EZ guide, or stationary tools, or......

No one has a monopoly on good ideas, or ways to do things. These are just my observations based on my experience & changing experiences & what I have gleaned out of the feedback of others. For me this "system" works, but it's not going to replace my stationary tablesaw, router table, shaper, planer, bandsaw, drill press etc.

Hope this helps, jim

[Bob Marino]

I am also wondering about sizes of the various tools. The TS 55 EQ Plunge Saw has a 6 1/4 blade and the TS 75 EQ has an 8 1/4. I do not see the need to cut any deeper than 1 1/2 inches at the moment which I believe the 55 will handle. I think the thinner guide and base mena it has a similar capacity to my EZ Smart with a 7 1/4 blade. I guess when I start working with more hardwood I might find some times when greater capacity would be nice, but I am not sure it is worth lugging the larger, heavier saw around just in case I need it .

The medium sized OF 1400 EQ Router seems like it would handle the dados, rabbits, groves and round overs that I plan on making. I will be carrying these things around to diferent sites so the size and weight become larger issues. I beleive there is a different guide available for the router. I read something about holes drilled in it to help make 5mm shelf holes in the sides of cabinets. I am wondering if the saw will work with the Router guide as I am not wild about having to carry two around.

The Dust Extractor worries me a little as the capacities of the bags do not sound very high. The largest (CT 33 )has less than half the capacity of my 18 Gallon Shop Vac. I read that the large dust extractor teamed with one of the larger tools may reguire a 20 AMP circuit which may be why these tools seem to lean towards the smaller side elelctrically. Fortunately I did get a new sub panel with 230 and 20 AMP circuits put in the shop last year. I may want to use these tools where I do not have a 20AMP circuit readily available although I do have a long 10 guage extension cord that could probably get me to one if I had to have it.

In regard to tables I am thinking I would go with the larger one as I plan to cut and route a great deal of plywood and boards for cabinets on it. I can cut full sheets or big pieces on the EZ Table but I am kinda hoping to not have to lug it around all the time.

Any thoughts on the various models of the Festool or the Fein tools would be appreciated.

Mike,

A couple of points here. The Festool vac and tools do not require a 20 amp circuit. I have yet to trip a 15 amp circuit. TYhe electronics of vac and tool startup vary a tiny bit, so no big load is placed upon the circuit.
All Festool CT 22's and 33's are offered with HEPA filters - standard, no other filters are available. The CT MINI does come with a 1 micron filter, not a HEPA filter.
One thing to remember when comparing capacities between the Festool CT's and a vac such as the Fein (which is an excellent vac also) which has a filter bag which wraps around the body of the vac, is that the Festool filter bag sits in the bottom of the vac and can pretty much fill to capacity. The other types, I don't think can.
Sawing and sanding use little filter capacity, while routing does fill the bags quicker. Some people reuse the filter bags, and some buy Festool's permanent Longlife filter bag. In any event, a filter bag must be used.The HEPA's can be used a looooooong time before replacement and can easily and quickly be cleaned.
The rail that is used for the 32 mm shelf holes can be used with the saw, no problem.

Bob

[Jim Becker]

My only comment will be that for on-site work, you just can't beat a system like Festool's which not only performs the cutting/sanding tasks extremely well, but also leaves little or no dust and debris behind. I'd never use my old B&D saw in the house, but wouldn't hesitate to bring in the ATF with the CT-22, knowing that cleanup would be minimal. Although as a hobbiest, I'm just fortunate to have had the ablity to aquire and use the Festool system, if I were a pro...it would definitely be a no-brainer. (Please note that I'm commenting specifically on the dust extraction/tool quality and not in any way saying anything negative about Dino's fine system...the fact that you can use the Festool equipment with his guides if you choose is just another plus in my mind)

[Mike Holbrook]

Thanks again gentlemen more great information.

It seems that most people use the CT22 Dust extractor which kinda surprised me. I just was by the local Woodcraft and picked up both the 22 and 33 and I liked the 22 better too. I have the monster 18 gallon one for the big jobs.

I think the TS55 saw, MFT 1080 Table and OF 1400 Router are the items I would like to have to use with the extractor. I think I can do most of what I need too to make simple cabinets with that sleection of tools.

Jim, I have a left over hollow core door that I was planning to make an adjustable height table with. Maybe I will put one of the Festool rails and a Festool top on it. I will still need the portable one though.

EZ Smart does not make a table as much as supply parts for the user to make his own. You can get banquet folding legs and sliding ABS plastic deals designed to hold slips of wood for the work to rest on. The table that I ended up with, working from their plans, is similar in size to the MFT 1080, but the slides allow one to extend arms out that support larger pieces.

[Jim Becker]

Mike, Dino's cutting "table" setup is very slick and can also be very portable...it's design is perfect for when you are working on large sheets with a guided tool. I'm thinking of making something like that for use on top of my Adjust-A-Bench in the shop, using the center row of dog holes to "contain" the material supports. The MFT isn't the product for that...it's more of a panel processing station. I use it for all my cross-cutting (and router-dados) with longer sheet materials that would be cumbersome on the table saw, for example.

[Charles McKinley]

Hi Mile,

I think the other person was Todd Burch.

The collector I was talking about is new. It is called the "Dust Deputy" They sell it with a 10 gallon drum or a kit to attach it to a 5 gallon bucket.

[Mike Holbrook]

Thanks Charles, will check that out.

Jim I already have an EZ Table, as a Matter of fact it has been just about beat to death. Yes, it is very versatile, but it presents some challenges for me. I work alone much of the time and horsing full sheets of plywood onto the table can be a challenge. The extending slider arms are very nice to give the table more capacity, but working alone I have damaged a couple, cracked and or bent plastic. My support boards sort of point in different directions now. My EZ table is lighter than the Festool table and tends to slide all over the room while I am trying to slide sheet goods, doors etc. onto it. Should I post some pictures of me balancing on one foot with a full sheet of ply wood in hand & leaning on the table, trying to hold the slidding table in place with the other foot?

Also the clamping system for the Easy Smart: takes a while to do, involves handling things that are out of sight under the work, endangers soft tissues working in an environment that becomes laced with splintered, sharp edged support boards. Clamping to movable arms presents some challenges and limitations. For hard wood projects that benefit from a system that works best clamping the guide to the work EX Smart has its advantages. In situations where I need to cut & route large quantaties, I believe the Festool system will allow me to work faster and safer.

The fact that I can instantly adjust depth of cut with 1mm accuracy on the Festool is a major factor for me. That means that I should do minimal cutting into my work surface and spend far less time trying to set up the cut. I bought a CS not too long ago simply because it had the best depth adjustment I could locate, it is still a PITA.

The other thing that I have learned to dislike using the EZ System is waiting for the CS blade to stop spinning. Trust me, you do not want to be yanking the saw off the guide with the blade turning. While this would be a minor issue if I was just making a few or even a dozen cuts, it starts getting my goat when I am doing a bunch of cuts. The plunging retractable Festool blade will be so nice.

Another thing that bugs me is, every CS I have used slings wood chips and dust all over me. Even forgetting the health hazzard for a second I just get very tired of being assaulted by the saw. I have both a right and left hand saw too.

Any suggestions on where to buy Festool from? I have tried 4 times to get someone at McFeely's and keep comming up empty.

Ohh and nice hat Jim! How long do you have to wear it to win the bet?

[Jim Becker]

Where to buy Festool? Why, SMC's own Bob Marino... http://www.bobmarinosbesttools.com/

On the sheet cutting...perhaps the old 2" foam insulation trick is more in line with portability. Quarter a 4'x8' sheet so it's easy to transport and store. You can even put it on an existing table...ask Bill Grumbine about cutting sheets on his dining room table... :)

[Mike Holbrook]

Cool Bob actualy sells the stuff!

I just put T111 plywood on most of the rooms in a 60x30 building. Working with full sheets to reach the 8' ceiling. I got a sheet of foam sheathing to try cutting on but have not used it yet. The foam I have is only like 3/4" thick, 2' would be better. I started making some folding saw horses for cutting on, but the plans were not that great and the tricky angles have thrown me off so far. I think I got the idea here but could only locate a very old bad copy of some plans others had used.

[Jim Dailey]

Mike the 3/4" foam would be fine as long as you backed it with a sheet of plywood. An amazing thing about the Festools rails is that they don't move around when sawing. I rarely clamp the rails.

Hope this helps, jim

[Jim Becker]

Yes, the 3/4" will work, but will not be as durable over time as the 2" stuff will be. But it would good enough to "test the method" before you run out and buy some more foamy stuff!

[Rob Blaustein]

I am, like many others here:
-A big Festool fan.
-A big Bob Marino fan.
-A big fan of the saw horses + 4 x 8 ply top + thick foam insulation system to break down full sheets of ply. I learned about this method because I am also,
- A big fan of our own John Lucas whose wonderful website provides many useful tips on using Festool equipment (see here (http://www.woodshopdemos.com/men-fes.htm)).

I also made my own saw horses and from you description I wouldn't be surprised if they are the same ones you're trying to make. They are a bit complicated but once made are great to use. I can send you a reasonably good copy if you PM me.