Cabinet making questions

[John Libertate]

I am still up in the air about making my own kitchen cabinets - but instead of getting more anwers for myself I keep thinking of new questions. Hope the local experts can answer some.

Plywood, which is sold in big-box stores as cabinet grade 23/32" 7-ply sanded - will this be ok for kitchen cabinet sides, bottoms, tops (in case of wall cabinets), drawer sides, and shelves? I will be making frameless cabinets, but instead of laminate edges I plan to be using 1/4" thick and 3/4" wide matching solid wood.

Planers - can I take dimensional lumber, and plane it to something finer? I understand the knots will be more numerous then on higher quality wood. i.e. take a 2"x4"x8' stud and plane it to give me some of the above frame pieces? (presuming I can get my hand on a planer temporarily.)

How do I finish the boxes? Do I stain/finish the boxes after I put it together but before it goes in, after it goes in, or even before I assemble it?

Is there such thing as a table that can be a table saw, and also take a router? The technical difference seems minor from table to table - yet I could not find one yet.

Has anyone of you worked with bamboo flooring - in particular what wood would go well with a bamboo floor?

To hold the cabinet carcass together - dowels, biscuits, screws, narrow staples, pocket screws?

Thank you!

[Jim Becker]

This post does not answer all your questions...but some comments:

The 'borg plywood, IF you check over each piece carefully, will work for kitchen cabinets...mine are build from HD birch plywood. It's not as good or as consistant in quality or thickness as the better materials, but servicable. One thing I do recommend you do is invest a few bucks in CutList Plus to do your layouts and determine how much sheet material you need. It more than paid for itself when I did my own kitchen in 2003.

I do NOT recommend you use any kind of framing lumber for your cabinet construction. It's not dried to the same level as furniture grade wood and that can cause you issues over time. Frankly, you really don't save all that much in the long run. Poplar, maple or pine from a lumber supplier is a better choice than building materials.

As to finishing pre-assembly or not...personal preference. I did spray the cabinet component interior sides prior to assembly (masking off for glue areas) to make that easier. Do not put any kind of oil-based stain or varnish on the interiors...they will smell "forever". Use water borne acrylics or shellac.

Since you are a beginner, consider pocket screw construction for your cabinets as it's quick, easy and allows you to use butt joints. You can even cut your panels out with a guided circular saw system...table saws are not the best for working with large hunks of plywood unless you have a Euro slider.

[Jamie Buxton]

I am still up in the air about making my own kitchen cabinets - but instead of getting more anwers for myself I keep thinking of new questions. Hope the local experts can answer some.

From your questions, you need to learn lots more than you're going to get from online forums. You should look for a book or two about building cabinets. Taunton Press publishes good ones.

Plywood, which is sold in big-box stores as cabinet grade 23/32" 7-ply sanded - will this be ok for kitchen cabinet sides, bottoms, tops (in case of wall cabinets), drawer sides, and shelves? I will be making frameless cabinets, but instead of laminate edges I plan to be using 1/4" thick and 3/4" wide matching solid wood.

It may be good enough. However, in my big-box stores, the plywood is generally dinged, and almost always curved. I get mine from a real lumberyard.

Planers - can I take dimensional lumber, and plane it to something finer? I understand the knots will be more numerous then on higher quality wood. i.e. take a 2"x4"x8' stud and plane it to give me some of the above frame pieces? (presuming I can get my hand on a planer temporarily.)

You should not use construction lumber (e.g. a stud) for cabinets. It is not dry, and will warp and crack as it dries in your house. Also, as you point out, it generally has lots of defects.

How do I finish the boxes? Do I stain/finish the boxes after I put it together but before it goes in, after it goes in, or even before I assemble it?

That's your choice, and it mostly depends on how you plan to apply the finish. I use an HVLP spray on most kitchen cabinets, and find that it does not spray well into closed spaces like cabinet interiors. Therefore I apply finish before final assembly. Other people used brushed or wiped finishes, and can assemble before the finish.

Is there such thing as a table that can be a table saw, and also take a router? The technical difference seems minor from table to table - yet I could not find one yet.

Many woodworkers modify a table saw to hang a router table on the side. I don't know of any manufacturer which does it for you.

Has anyone of you worked with bamboo flooring - in particular what wood would go well with a bamboo floor?

You could use bamboo for your cabinets. It is available in 4'x8' sheets.

To hold the cabinet carcass together - dowels, biscuits, screws, narrow staples, pocket screws?

Individual choice. I use screws to hold the sides to the top and bottom, and staples to hold the back on. The screws are through-screws where the heads won't be seen, and pocket screws where they might be seen.

[Jim Dailey]

Hi John,

Sounds like you are at "square one" with virtually no tools, and little experience on building cabinets.... But we all started a some time.... depending on your mechanical level, and or aptitude you can do this if you have a high level of mechanical ability & are a good study.

1st The high quality lumber will have less knots not more. Pine 2x4's.... "NO". If you want pine as your "end product" find a supplier with quality white pine. Even if your workmanship builds the highest level of fit & finish cabinet, if you use "cheap" materials you will have a "cheap" looking cabinet.

Yes "cabinet grade" will work, but there are cabinet shop suppliers that have more selection.

Yes you can "add" a router table to a table saw how ever there are few maker other than Ryobie that has router as part of a table saw. I've built cabinets for decades with a Unisaw & Unishaper (for style & rail doors), however you may want to look at Festool for breaking down sheet stock with their saws. With the addition of a MFT (multifunction table) and a router you could make the doors. But this is only on approach....

There are books written just on the subject of finish & the application.... When it comes to stain... to me I'd rather pick a wood that naturally is the color I want the project to look like... why try to make oak look like black walnut?

Bamboo is a great flooring material.

Skip the dowels, and avoid using staples where it shows... Use biscuits and/or pocket screws.

Hope this helps,
jim

[Neil Clemmons]

Hi John -

I made my own kithen cabinets 25 years ago and got started in woodworking. I used a router and a tablesaw and a few drills and hand tools and lots of drywall screws. Fortunately for me, I had a great teacher at the local lumber yard that would answer questions every weekend. And I had plenty of them

Jim mentioned the Kreg jig. There is an excellent book written by Mark Duginske in partnership with Kreg. It's on Amazon for about $5.00 so search for Duginske and Kreg and you can find it. it's a step-by-step guide to building your own cabinets - base and wall units - using the Kreg setup.

I agree there are lots of great books as well from Taunton Press. It seems like a daunting challenge to build them but I think with patience and some basic skills you can pull it off.

I also agree to try to select your wood carefully - furniture grade woods will be much more satisfying to work and to finish.

Good luck -

Neil

[Laurie Brown]

Plywood, which is sold in big-box stores as cabinet grade 23/32" 7-ply sanded - will this be ok for kitchen cabinet sides, bottoms, tops (in case of wall cabinets), drawer sides, and shelves? I will be making frameless cabinets, but instead of laminate edges I plan to be using 1/4" thick and 3/4" wide matching solid wood.
That should be fine for making your boxes. In general the boxes are not visible after the cabinets are installed, so you can make them out of anything you like. However, the interiors will be visible. You could use melamine coated particle board or MDF if you intended to paint it. I use oak ply like you describe from the local Lowes for my cabinets.


Planers - can I take dimensional lumber, and plane it to something finer? I understand the knots will be more numerous then on higher quality wood. i.e. take a 2"x4"x8' stud and plane it to give me some of the above frame pieces? (presuming I can get my hand on a planer temporarily.)
Do not use construction grade lumber for anything like kitchen cabinets. You want to use a good grade solid wood for your face frames. I use solid oak for my face frames and door parts, also from Lowe's. Be selective when choosing your wood. They hate me at Lowe's, when I look for lumber I look at nearly every piece in the bin to choose the ones that are the straightest and least defective ones I can get.


How do I finish the boxes? Do I stain/finish the boxes after I put it together but before it goes in, after it goes in, or even before I assemble it?
This is personal preference. For ease of assembly, I tend to finish my cabinet box parts before assembly, but I finish face frames after assembly but before installation onto the box. With doors, I finish the center panel first, then assemble the door, then finish the rest of the door.


Is there such thing as a table that can be a table saw, and also take a router? The technical difference seems minor from table to table - yet I could not find one yet.
You can add an extension onto your table saw that will hold a router, either made yourself or bought, depending on your saw.


To hold the cabinet carcass together - dowels, biscuits, screws, narrow staples, pocket screws?
I use simple butt joints on my cabinet boxes, since as stated earlier you don't see them after installation. I just screw the parts together. For the face frame, you can use pocket screws to hold it to the face frame. In my case, I just glue them, and use a few well-placed brads to secure them in places where you can't see them once the doors are installed.

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

Sometimes ignorance is the best instructor.

I read your post and some of the responces and then thought about myself when I first began this hobby.

I knew N-O-T-H-I-N-G, but I was young enough that little things like that were meaningless. So I soldiered on making my own furniturte 'cause I was too poor to buy nice stiuff and hated the crapola in the stores. I ended up making Guitars and hand made pieces for small sums (very small sums) of money before I realized that as a hobby this was great but as an avocation I wasn't going to make it. I was better of in a machine shop.

Try it. What is the absolute worst that can happen? You'll waste some wood? Naaah. Wasted wood only gets made into smaller things like kid's toys or jugs and fixtures.
Just do it.

As to the table saw / router there are two ways to make that happen
1.) buy a TS with a Shaper like a Felder
or
2.) build a router table off your TS as a feed off or support table.

[David Giles]

John, from your previous posts, you are starting a major remodel project. I'd encourage you to step back and rethink your ultimate objective. Do you want to become a woodworker or do you want to complete your kitchen project sometime in the next 3 years? Would you rather learn to install a new floor or learn the intricacies of making doors and drawers? Do you have more time than money or vice versa? Good tools are expensive. Tool setup takes time and learning to use the tool takes more time.

Others have given you good advice if you choose to "do it all" yourself. But if you would rather complete a kitchen project than become a woodworker, consider buying precut components and assembling them yourself. Cabparts.com (and other sites) will sell you precut cabinet pieces that you glue together. Your investment consists of clamps (always a good investment). Doors, drawers and drawer fronts can be purchased to your specified sizes. Use melamine interiors and you will minimize the finishing labor. Also check CS Hardware RTA cabinets. You might be surprised at the overall cost.

If you really want to build your own cabinets, start with two books - Danny Proulx outlines a straight forward way to build basic kitchen cabinets and Jim Tolpin's book goes into detail on how an experienced cabinetmaker approaches the craft. There are lots of ways to build cabinets, but they all require straight, square and precise cuts which is not as easy as it sounds.

[John Libertate]

First, thank you for everyone's great information and insight.


John, from your previous posts, you are starting a major remodel project. I'd encourage you to step back and rethink your ultimate objective. Do you want to become a woodworker or do you want to complete your kitchen project sometime in the next 3 years? Would you rather learn to install a new floor or learn the intricacies of making doors and drawers? Do you have more time than money or vice versa? Good tools are expensive. Tool setup takes time and learning to use the tool takes more time.
I want it all! I want my cake and eat it too! :D Seriously, I have time (between sunset and sunrise), and no money. The kitchen project is to see if I have the ability to do certain things. Wood working has always been my interest, and have fantasized about making fine furniture. This will be a real opportunity to see if I even have the aptitude to do it. I know I can do plumbing in a pinch, drywalling is definitely out, flooring is only once. If I had a choice, plumbing, drywalling and flooring are not a good one for a hobby ;). Ever seen someone who does drywalls for hobby?

The floor redo just happens to be in the path of the house remodel - that will be done by a professional.


Others have given you good advice if you choose to "do it all" yourself. But if you would rather complete a kitchen project than become a woodworker, consider buying precut components and assembling them yourself. Cabparts.com (and other sites) will sell you precut cabinet pieces that you glue together. Your investment consists of clamps (always a good investment). Doors, drawers and drawer fronts can be purchased to your specified sizes. Use melamine interiors and you will minimize the finishing labor. Also check CS Hardware RTA cabinets. You might be surprised at the overall cost. This is the first time I have heard of these companies. Thank you.

Melamine is something I will have to learn separately, as I think it requires additional understanding of the material.


If you really want to build your own cabinets, start with two books - Danny Proulx outlines a straight forward way to build basic kitchen cabinets and Jim Tolpin's book goes into detail on how an experienced cabinetmaker approaches the craft. There are lots of ways to build cabinets, but they all require straight, square and precise cuts which is not as easy as it sounds.
Thank you. I will look into those books.

It sounds like most of you are suggesting a scaleback of my :cool:glorious attempt at redoing the kitchen. I think I might have to take your expert notes under advisement.

There is a shop near by which offers classes in various aspects of woodworking. I think I will sign up for a few to see how well I will do.

[David Giles]

Okay, now that we know more about your situation, what level of quality do you want to achieve? Construction lumber and BORG plywood are low end materials in general. White paint on the interior isn't what most consider fine woodworking. It's not wrong by any means, but it's a different type of WW than most folks here are used to doing.

Let's say you want to build a sturdy kitchen cabinet that looks okay to the average guest. You can't buy many tools and you don't have much money. Here's a low cost approach.

1. Buy the Eurekazone 64" rail, saw base, insert and square for your circular saw. Also the table that Dino sells. Splurge for a PC 325Mag saw. Buy a PC air compressor set with a 16 gauge air nailer. Buy some 36" clamps and glue.

2. Use Danny Proulx method of case construction or build long runs onsite. CShardware sells serviceable drawer slides and adjustable feet for a low price.

3. Use 3/4" sheet goods for the case and drawers. Melamine coated particle board doesn't need any finishing and it's flat. Or find a source of Baltic (Finnish) Birch plywood. Don't buy any wood from Home Depot. Seriously!

4. Use Baltic Birch (BB) plywood for your faceframes. Yes, it's heresy to recommend this on a WW forum, but it works. Don't bother to cover up the plywood edge. That's why you bought better quality plywood.

5. Build your boxes in place. Air nail and glue face frame strips to the front edge of the box.

6. Use the same BB for drawer boxes. Butt joint the sides. Glue and staple a 1/4" - 1/2" BB floor onto the bottom of the boxes. Use cheap European slides to cover the floor edge.

7. Use Zinsser Sealcoat shellac for all interiors and drawer boxes. A $50 HVLP sprayer from Harbor Freight is your friend here, but a brush works too. The exterior coat needs to be tougher. Polyurethane, varnish or lacquer are better choices here. Experiment with different ones on scrap boards.

8. For doors and drawer fronts, you can go two ways. Buy them premade if you want hardwood raised panel doors. Or make plywood doors and nail some molding into the center for decoration. Rather than trim the edges with hardwood tape, I'd leave them raw and call it a design feature. Especially if you select BB for the door fronts.

9. Add a laminate countertop and you're done! I would guess well under $1000 total for your kitchen. If you don't like the plain look of BB, use whatever plywood strikes your fancy within your budget.

And now you are trained to build kitchen cabinets for $250,000 houses in Texas. I see a bunch just like that. No jointer, tablesaw, router or dust collector (well, a shop vac would be nice). Just plywood and you.

I applaud your willingness to take on a project of this size. It's not impossible, just don't make it more complicated that you need to achieve your target quality level. You can do it!

To all Creekers: I'm not well known on this forum, but please don't think poorly of me because of this post! I really can do fine WW. If I try. After lots of mistakes. Sometimes.