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View Full Version : Something don't add up



donnie wood
12-02-2006, 10:55 PM
I'm glad the fund drive is over and now the forum can get back to normal. But, I do have two concerns about how the drive was handled. , I 1st read that in order to vote you were to donate if you voted for no ads, but how were we able to vote no. Voting with two choices and only one on the balot isn't fair. 2nd I posted my concern about donating and recieved this response. #8 (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showpost.php?p=453454&postcount=8) http://www.sawmillcreek.org/images/buttons/report.gif (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/report.php?p=453454)
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/images/statusicon/post_old.gif 10-24-2006, 9:45 AM
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/image.php?u=48&dateline=1152021084 (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/member.php?u=48)Dennis Peacock (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/member.php?u=48) http://www.sawmillcreek.org/images/statusicon/user_online.gif vbmenu_register("postmenu_453454", true);
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Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Conway, Arkansas
Posts: 5,600


Let's look at it this way:

Server cost - $200 per month
Power cost - $100 per month
Environmentals - $250 per month (include floor space cost)
Dedicated circuit from ISP: $1,400 per month
Software licensing/updates - $100 per month
Site Admin: $2,000 per month

Add this up and it's just about: $4,050 per month or $48,600 per year.
My numbers may be off, but when we were paying for a dedicated T1 circuit, it ran us around $1200 per month.

There are many variances in the cost of running a site. I've looked into this in the past and figured I'd have to work 3 jobs at my current salary to even pay the startup costs. Hardware can be rather expensive especially when there are many people putting a strain on the server/network loads on a forum and this requires components that are much more expensive that what we buy for our home PC's.

I don't know exactly what server hardware SMC is running, but take a very small server we run where I work. A single network interface card costs us just over $6,000 and a CPU replacement is $22,000 and these are the "cheap" servers. A serious server for internet services or number crunching can easily set you back a cool $500,000 to $14,000,000. I work on those boxes every day of every week for a living and have a pretty good idea of the startup and replacements costs for them. :D

In short? If every member of SMC was a contributor? Then there wouldn't be any real issues and the plans forum section would be free. :)
__________________
Thanks & Happy Wood Chips,
Dennis - :D
AAW Member: 47206


Acording to this the forum $48000, but the was $5500. Am I missing something here, tell me if I'm wrong.

Tim Morton
12-02-2006, 11:21 PM
I think the "vote" thing was meant to be a little "TIC". Meaning by making a donation you were casting a vote for no ads. But I am guessing you got that and were maybe being somewhat rhetorical on the vote question.

As for the operating costs part of your question I am not sure what you are asking or I would search out the forum and try and help.

Chris Barton
12-03-2006, 6:25 AM
So, I have a different take on this. If you aren't a contributor to SMC then, on what basis do you believe that you should have your concerns discussed?

Keith Outten
12-03-2006, 8:05 AM
I'm not sure why there was confusion about voting. Tim is right, making a donation was a vote for no advertising and not making a donation was considered a vote for advertising. The twist was that as long as we had enough Members donate so we could collect our minimum costs for the year we would continue as a Member Supported Community.

The low end hosting option wouldn't work for SawMill Creek. Our bandwidth consumption and server load is already way to high to use a commercial hosting service.

The high end, a situation like Donnie describes would be the Cadilac system but way out of our range financially. A combination of Member donations and advertising would still not pay those kinds of bills.

Our third option, which is how we setup The Creek last year, is a compromise that we can afford and still provide a reasonable performance level that has growth potential. We build our own servers and host them in my shop office on a commercial cable connection.

Because Aaron and I have previous experience running commercial servers the third method works for us. Those who don't have the knowledge would have to use option number one to start up then move to another system as their site matured....if they could afford the huge jump in costs. When we started SawMill Creek we were hosted by Hampton Roads Online and had a direct T1 connection to a nationwide backbone. When HRO went out of business we lost our T1 and had to find an alternate method of hosting that we could afford.

I believe it is possible that Badger Pond's growth could have been part of the reason the site no longer exists. Ponders used to take up a collection each year and send it to the owner. He probably used these funds to pay his hosting bills. As the site grew and the bandwidth and server loads increased his cost started to skyrocket and donations failed to pay for the cost of hosting the site. This scenario might be off base but it is possible.

A commercial T1 line used to cost us $200 per month for the circuit plus $750 per month for the bandwidth. A site like SawMill Creek can easily consume an entire T1 line not including any other costs, this would make it impossible for us to provide free access to our Forums. I remember when we had commercial hosting customers whose web sites took off like a rocket and started to use use a huge amount of data transfer. I had to contact them and explain why their costs were getting ready to go up and provide options they had to consider. They just couldn't understand why their monthly costs were being increased from $30 to $400 or more and we had to place a cap on their bandwidth consumption to protect our network.

.

Tim Morton
12-03-2006, 8:55 AM
So, I have a different take on this. If you aren't a contributor to SMC then, on what basis do you believe that you should have your concerns discussed?

Beacause we are all a part of this community...which is what makes it such a great place.

Chris Barton
12-03-2006, 9:12 AM
Tim, I respectfully disagree. As anyone that knows me will tell you, I lack the political correctness gene. I agree that this is a great place but, I think it's so because of the few that actually are fully committed to supporting SMC. Otherwise, it sure seems to me like the few supporting the many. I have real cognitive issues with the kind of general dismissive attitude about supporting this site. If that's the case, why bother with an annual support drive or funding of any kind? To me this is like saying you helped someone that had a car accident when in reality you only rubber necked as you drove by.

John Miliunas
12-03-2006, 9:18 AM
Beacause we are all a part of this community...which is what makes it such a great place.

Thanks, Tim! You beat me to the punch! :) While we'd love to see all, most or even just more of our membership donate financially throughout the year (and possibly even avoid a special "drive"), some members aren't ready to commit to that. However, "contributions" also come by way of sharing information and expertise. It's really not a whole lot different than our Society at large. Some folks live in mansions and pay a LOT in property taxes. Others in very modest homes or are renters. But, in the end, we still ALL have the same benefits and/or problems that all the people in the particular state or community do. I sincerely believe the main difference between Society at large and our community here at SMC is, we truly bring a whole lot more positive away with us than we do problems! :) :cool:

Rob Bodenschatz
12-03-2006, 9:23 AM
So, I have a different take on this. If you aren't a contributor to SMC then, on what basis do you believe that you should have your concerns discussed?

How can you say that Chris? Keith plainly said that the method of voting was to contribute or not. If you don't want ads, contribute. If you do, don't. Just because someone may disagree with you doesn't mean their opinion doesn't count. Or, does it?

I don't really understand the rest of Donnie's post but your comment is unwarranted.

Tim Morton
12-03-2006, 9:28 AM
Tim, I respectfully disagree. As anyone that knows me will tell you, I lack the political correctness gene. I agree that this is a great place but, I think it's so because of the few that actually are fully committed to supporting SMC. Otherwise, it sure seems to me like the few supporting the many. I have real cognitive issues with the kind of general dismissive attitude about supporting this site. If that's the case, why bother with an annual support drive or funding of any kind? To me this is like saying you helped someone that had a car accident when in reality you only rubber necked as you drove by.

I am no more PC than you...but you can't serious feel that those who do not commit to financially supporting this forum shouldn't have a voice? In the broader sense you would be saying that I should have a money deducted from my bank account for every page I few online.

John Bailey
12-03-2006, 9:33 AM
You all make good points, but let's keep it positive. The average contribution was in the $18 range. That's cheap!!! This is a great site. It's been explained many times why the costs are as low as they are. Agree or disagree, it's still a great site and there are many, in my estivations most, members who like the format. Comparing it to other sites with other equipment will get us nowhere, because the Creek is unique. Because of the positive members, it's gonna' stay that way.

We need to stop worrying about how the Creek is run, and start enjoying how the Creek is run.

John

Joseph O'Leary
12-03-2006, 10:04 AM
Donnie said "Am I missing something here, tell me if I'm wrong."

You are wrong.

Curt Fuller
12-03-2006, 10:25 AM
Well, I see it this way. If I go to a movie once a week it costs me about $7.50 to sit through 20 minutes of advertising, promo, and a 90 minute movie that usually isn't up to much. Throw in another 10 bucks or so for some popcorn and a coke, multiply it by 52 weeks and it ends up costing me about 900 bucks a year.

On the other hand, my wife tries to tell me that I spend a couple hours every day looking at the photos and reading the posts and sometimes adding my own 2 cents worth on SMC. I don't think I spend that much time but that's another story. I can throw a bag of Orville Redenbachers in the microwave and pop the top on a can of coke for a few cents every day. SMC is guaranteed to have some humor, a little drama, sometimes a heartbreaking story and always something inspirational and educational. I never fall asleep at SMC. And all they ask for is 18 bucks a year. Now how can you complain about that?

John Miliunas
12-03-2006, 11:27 AM
Well, I see it this way. If I go to a movie once a week it costs me about $7.50 to sit through 20 minutes of advertising, promo, and a 90 minute movie that usually isn't up to much. Throw in another 10 bucks or so for some popcorn and a coke, multiply it by 52 weeks and it ends up costing me about 900 bucks a year.

On the other hand, my wife tries to tell me that I spend a couple hours every day looking at the photos and reading the posts and sometimes adding my own 2 cents worth on SMC. I don't think I spend that much time but that's another story. I can throw a bag of Orville Redenbachers in the microwave and pop the top on a can of coke for a few cents every day. SMC is guaranteed to have some humor, a little drama, sometimes a heartbreaking story and always something inspirational and educational. I never fall asleep at SMC. And all they ask for is 18 bucks a year. Now how can you complain about that?

Good analogy, Curt! :) BTW, love your signature lines! :D :cool:

Chris Barton
12-03-2006, 12:21 PM
I am no more PC than you...but you can't serious feel that those who do not commit to financially supporting this forum shouldn't have a voice? In the broader sense you would be saying that I should have a money deducted from my bank account for every page I few online.

In the broader sense, I can't understand why they would expect a voice. The question regarding online content has to be trenched in the context of the situation. There are plenty of commercially supported sites that are free. This is not one of those sites thus, why should someone expect a say in how this site is operated if they are not contributors?

Anthony Anderson
12-03-2006, 5:35 PM
Guys, Let this go, please. There have been a lot of good people who have left SMC for one reason or another. Let's not let this issue cause any more hostility among a great bunch of people. Either, have a required $6 per year subscription fee, or accept advertising. Keith please opt for one of these methods. I found this site, and stayed because of ALL the great people and the atmosphere. In today's day and age, not many things stay the same. Let's at least try to keep SMC the same. Regards and Respect, Bill

Mack Cameron
12-03-2006, 7:19 PM
While this is a great WW'ing site with knowledgeable and friendly people, don't get the idea that it's the only one in existence. At last count, I belong to 6 or 7 sites that supply me with as much knowledge and experience as this one does and doesn't ask me for a dime. While I donated the minimum in '06, I think I got caught up in the moment. I haven't for '07 as yet. If you decide not to allow me access to this forum because I haven't contributed, it will be no skin off my bum. There are a myriad of sites I can log on to that will solve my problem.
As far as the advertising goes, I don't look at it unless I am interested. And another thing is, the advertising doesn't get in my way.
With all due respect to the administrators and others with a different opinion from mine.