Spiral head cutter vs conventional knives

[Merrill Herring]

Thanks for everyones input on my previous questions. Still trying to decide on 15 inch stationary planer. Can anyone tell me if it is worth the extra money to get a planer with a spiral head cutter. I run alot of 8/4 hardwoods. I do not mind sanding, but since I have never owned a stationary planer, I am wondering if there is a big difference in the smoothness using a spiral vs knives. The Yorkcraft YC-15P 15 inch planer is a real bargain, but if you want a spiral head, it cost another $700 bucks. The Grizzly G1021X is $1700.00 and comes with a spiral head. The Powermatic 15S is the same price as the Grizzly, and has a spiral head, but not a real spiral configuration. Any input is appreciated.

[Jim Becker]

Spirals will leave a "smooth" surface and tend to be more friendly with figured stock or species with interlocking grain. Sanding is still required, however...it's still a revolving cutter and effectively leaves "scallops" in the wood, small as they may be. They WILL show up during finishing if you don't scrape/sand your milled stock.

[Todd Solomon]

Can anyone tell me if it is worth the extra money to get a planer with a spiral head cutter.

Although I know there are a lot of happy Byrd helical cutterhead owners out there, I prefer straight knives. I have a Byrd head on my Oliver planer, and it's okay.

Pros:
-Much quieter
-Inserts will last a lot longer than straight knives, and they have 4 sides, so that you can rotate to a new edge.
-Reduced tearout

Cons
-I still get tearout, although a little less than with straight knives. My experience is that the suggestion that it eliminates tearout is exxagerated. Others have told me they have nearly no tearout, so maybe there's a difference between our cutterheads (some of theirs were larger diameter cutterheads, with more rows of inserts).
-Quality issues. The head came late. About 10 inserts were chipped, right from the factory. They sent me replacements promptly. Strangely, inserts keep cracking in half, even while the machine sits idle between uses. I'm pretty sure they were over-torqued at the factory, and the stresses eventually break them. This is getting old, it's been happening for a year, now. I've probably replaced an additional 10 inserts because of this. I'm going to loosen and re-torque all the inserts to see if that will cure this.
-Surface finish not as attractive and uniform as straight knives yield. Some rows cut a little deeper than others, giving stripes down the workpiece. This not really a big issue though, since you need to sand, plane or scrape the wood before finishing any way.
-A lot more money

So to sum it all up, the increase in cost and the fact that some tearout still results, combined with the inserts breaking, make me conclude that the Byrd head is not worth the extra green. Buy hey, I know others that are very happy with their Byrds, maybe I got a lemon.

I just ordered a new jointer/planer with a Tersa head, which is my favorite (I owned one in the past, with excellent success). My advice is to buy a standard straight-knived planer and retrofit it with the Esta Disposa-Blade system, which is available from Grizzly. This gives you quick-change, double-edged, low-cost, disposable knives that are self-setting in height, somewhat similar to the Tersa system.

The Powermatic 15S looks interesting, and in theory ought to work well. I would talk with owners first, to see what their experience has been.

Todd

[Merrill Herring]

Thanks Todd for the input. I would want better results than that for $795.00. Plus I can sharpen the conventional knives myself. I will look into the Esta Disposa-Blade System.

Merrill

[Brian Gumpper]

I will look into the Esta Disposa-Blade System.

I heard they are a nightmare to set up.

Nothing wrong with straight knives if you don't mind sharpening and setting them up which I feel is a pain. If you ever replace the straight knives, get better ones than what the machine came with. I think Amana's knives are good and not too expensive.

For me the Byrd is nice because you don't have to fuss this setting up the knives.

As far as the machines you were looking at.

Yorkcraft - true Byrd head, best of the spriral/insert heads
PM - comes with spiral but steel knives that cannot be sharpended
Grizzly - their own head and not as good as the Byrd, looks like aluminum in the picture??

[Joe Jensen]

Thanks for everyones input on my previous questions. Still trying to decide on 15 inch stationary planer. Can anyone tell me if it is worth the extra money to get a planer with a spiral head cutter. I run alot of 8/4 hardwoods. I do not mind sanding, but since I have never owned a stationary planer, I am wondering if there is a big difference in the smoothness using a spiral vs knives. The Yorkcraft YC-15P 15 inch planer is a real bargain, but if you want a spiral head, it cost another $700 bucks. The Grizzly G1021X is $1700.00 and comes with a spiral head. The Powermatic 15S is the same price as the Grizzly, and has a spiral head, but not a real spiral configuration. Any input is appreciated.

I spent a lot of time reading everything I could on the internet about straight knife systems (Tersa and Terminus), and the Byrd insert helical cutterhead. I started with a Termius straight knife head in my 8" Powermatic jointer. The appeal of quick knife changes, and the promise of better cut quality than the Burd head sent me that way. After using the Terminus in the jointer, I found that the Terminus knifes nick much much easier than the bimetal knives that came with my jointer. I then decided to try the Byrd helical (true shearing action versus just a spiral knive head), and all I can say is WOW. This $1000 upgrade (my planer is more expensive than many), is the best money I've ever spent. I'm making 8 jewelry boxes out of 5A curly maple, and I couldn't do this without the Byrd head. Even with fresh knives in the Terminus on the jointer I've getting too much tearout. I'm going to swith the jointer to a Byrd head soon...joe

[Jim Becker]

I heard they are a nightmare to set up. {relative to Esta Disposables
You only set them up once and it's pretty much the same procedure as setting up the OEM knives. From that point forward, there is no setup. When you replace the cutters...they are in the exact same spot as the previous set was. That also gives you the same ability that many folks with Tersa knives like...the ablity to have different metal formulas available for different kinds of jobs. They are "more work" to change than Tersas, but you don't have to change your cutterhead to implement the Esta system

[Jerry White]

Grizzly - their own head and not as good as the Byrd, looks like aluminum in the picture??

Brian, surely you are not suggesting, or even implying, that the Grizzly 1021X planer has an aluminum head, are you?

Disclaimer: I have no affiliation with Grizzly or any other manufacturer.

[Brian Gumpper]

Brian, surely you are not suggesting, or even implying, that the Grizzly 1021X planer has an aluminum head, are you?

Disclaimer: I have no affiliation with Grizzly or any other manufacturer.

I really don't know Jerry and was kind of asking. I only say that because they have some aluminum head insert heads for the shaper and the color of these made me think maybe they are the same.

[Todd Solomon]

I then decided to try the Byrd helical (true shearing action versus just a spiral knive head), and all I can say is WOW. This $1000 upgrade (my planer is more expensive than many), is the best money I've ever spent. I'm making 8 jewelry boxes out of 5A curly maple, and I couldn't do this without the Byrd head. Even with fresh knives in the Terminus on the jointer I've getting too much tearout. I'm going to swith the jointer to a Byrd head soon...joe

That's great that you're getting better results than I am, Joe. I think the choice might be similar to sharpening methods- one man's ideal is met with scary sharp, another swears by only Shaptons, and so on. To me, nearly doubling the price of my Oliver planer was not worth it. I spent $1800 for the Byrd for a 22" head, only to find a small improvement in tearout. Maybe it's the specific design of my model's cutterhead, but I'm just not seeing the payback. If I had not experienced all of the chipped and broken inserts, maybe I would be more positive.

My Tersa experience, however, was near flawless. Sure I got some tearout, and although the Byrd head reduced it, it usually doesn't eliminate it. And if it doesn't eliminate it, I'm hand planing, scraping, and/or sanding to get it out, any way. If I get knicked knives, I just tap one loose, slide it over a bit, and I'm back in business in less than a minute. The centrifugal force of the head turning, automatically seats the knives within .001 or .002" of eachother. Tersa isn't available for most machines at any reasonable price, but comes on a lot of the european machines standard or as a nominal option (Rojek, Mini Max, Felder).

The Esta Dispos-a-blade system gives woodworkers an alternative that is nearly as easy as the Tersa system, and is available for most any machine. You have to loosen and tighten set screws to shift or change a knife, but their height is set quickly and automatically. In fact, the "Felder cutterblock" is exactly the same as the Dispos-a-blade system, but the knives are at slightly different height. Many people choose this over Tersa for their Felders, so I figure the Dispos-a-blade system can't be too bad.

So I prefer Tersas or Esta Dispos-a-blade straight knives over the Byrd head. But I also swear by my iron and bronze hand planes, and some of my friends would not use anything but woodies. Figure out what you think is the best solution for your specific needs and budget.

Todd

[Shiraz Balolia]

I heard they are a nightmare to set up.

Grizzly - their own head and not as good as the Byrd, looks like aluminum in the picture??

No it is not aluminum and certainly not inferior to the Byrd. I have personally tested both as we sell Bryds as well. I use the Grizzly cutterheads on my jointer and planer at home and have worked with the "curliest" and most figured woods while building guitars.

Comments like the one in the quote above, phrased as questions, leave a negative impression inappropriately.

[Joe Jensen]

That's great that you're getting better results than I am, Joe. I think the choice might be similar to sharpening methods- one man's ideal is met with scary sharp, another swears by only Shaptons, and so on. To me, nearly doubling the price of my Oliver planer was not worth it. I spent $1800 for the Byrd for a 22" head, only to find a small improvement in tearout. Maybe it's the specific design of my model's cutterhead, but I'm just not seeing the payback. If I had not experienced all of the chipped and broken inserts, maybe I would be more positive.

My Tersa experience, however, was near flawless. Sure I got some tearout, and although the Byrd head reduced it, it usually doesn't eliminate it. And if it doesn't eliminate it, I'm hand planing, scraping, and/or sanding to get it out, any way. If I get knicked knives, I just tap one loose, slide it over a bit, and I'm back in business in less than a minute. The centrifugal force of the head turning, automatically seats the knives within .001 or .002" of eachother. Tersa isn't available for most machines at any reasonable price, but comes on a lot of the european machines standard or as a nominal option (Rojek, Mini Max, Felder).

The Esta Dispos-a-blade system gives woodworkers an alternative that is nearly as easy as the Tersa system, and is available for most any machine. You have to loosen and tighten set screws to shift or change a knife, but their height is set quickly and automatically. In fact, the "Felder cutterblock" is exactly the same as the Dispos-a-blade system, but the knives are at slightly different height. Many people choose this over Tersa for their Felders, so I figure the Dispos-a-blade system can't be too bad.

So I prefer Tersas or Esta Dispos-a-blade straight knives over the Byrd head. But I also swear by my iron and bronze hand planes, and some of my friends would not use anything but woodies. Figure out what you think is the best solution for your specific needs and budget.

Todd

Too bad on the Byrd head, that would be a huge disappointment. The Terminus head is a Tersa type. I think the idea is great, it's just that the knives dull so fast. Also, since I face joint every board I use, I'm either getting some dirt in the rough sawn part of the board, or minute sanding grit left from the abrassive planer that all the yards are now in love with. So I think that these contribute greatly to the dulling of the knives. The other downside of the Terminus head is that the knives just fit between keepers on either side of the head, so I can't slide a knife.

What does Byrd say about your head? I have a 12" Powermatic which is constructed like the bigger Powermatics 16, 18, 20, 24 and beyond. Pressure bar and chip breaker. I assume your planer is built like that. Also, I spent a ton of time with the dial indicator getting everything +/- .001", actually tighter than that. Hopefully something can salvage the $2K investment in the Byrd head...joe

[CPeter James]

While I don't own one, I have seen the Grizzly head in operation. It does a very good job. It is finely machined steel with easily rotated or replaced inserts. The quality of the whole machine was better than my DJ20 which was a made in Tiawan - better quality that the made in China ones.

CPeter

[lou sansone]

Although I know there are a lot of happy Byrd helical cutterhead owners out there, I prefer straight knives. I have a Byrd head on my Oliver planer, and it's okay.

Pros:
-Much quieter
-Inserts will last a lot longer than straight knives, and they have 4 sides, so that you can rotate to a new edge.
-Reduced tear-out

Cons
-I still get tear-out, although a little less than with straight knives. My experience is that the suggestion that it eliminates tear-out is exaggerated. Others have told me they have nearly no tear-out, so maybe there's a difference between our cutter-heads (some of theirs were larger diameter cutter-heads, with more rows of inserts).
-Quality issues. The head came late. About 10 inserts were chipped, right from the factory. They sent me replacements promptly. Strangely, inserts keep cracking in half, even while the machine sits idle between uses. I'm pretty sure they were over-torqued at the factory, and the stresses eventually break them. This is getting old, it's been happening for a year, now. I've probably replaced an additional 10 inserts because of this. I'm going to loosen and re-torque all the inserts to see if that will cure this.
-Surface finish not as attractive and uniform as straight knives yield. Some rows cut a little deeper than others, giving stripes down the workpiece. This not really a big issue though, since you need to sand, plane or scrape the wood before finishing any way.
-A lot more money

So to sum it all up, the increase in cost and the fact that some tear-out still results, combined with the inserts breaking, make me conclude that the Byrd head is not worth the extra green. Buy hey, I know others that are very happy with their Byrds, maybe I got a lemon.

I just ordered a new jointer/planer with a Tersa head, which is my favorite (I owned one in the past, with excellent success). My advice is to buy a standard straight-knives planer and retrofit it with the Esta Disposa-Blade system, which is available from Grizzly. This gives you quick-change, double-edged, low-cost, disposable knives that are self-setting in height, somewhat similar to the Tersa system.

The Powermatic 15S looks interesting, and in theory ought to work well. I would talk with owners first, to see what their experience has been.

Todd

I have to say I really appreciate Todd's comments on the pro /cons. Maybe it is just my own set of circumstances, but it has been my experience that once someone plunks down a bunch of money on something, they seem to develop a strong bias toward the said thing they just bought. It is nice to hear someone actually discuss their purchases in a dispassionate manner.

On the topic of tear out, I have all straight knife ( high speed steel ) machines. When I started out years ago I had machines with fairly small cutting circle cutter heads. These seem to produce much more tear out. Both my jointer and planer ( pretty heavy industrial machines ) have cutter head diameters in the 5" range and I find that I get much less tear-out with them. I love working with figured stock and my personal solution to tear out was to simply bite the bullet and add a wide-belt sander to the machine lineup. Granted, most would find this hard to justify, but the drum sanders currently available can provide similar performance, just much slower. I also like the sanding technologies ( sure you can hand scrape afterward ) because of their thin stock capabilities.

Lou