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View Full Version : OT:(kinda')Dumb idea? Yes/No?



John Miliunas
02-25-2003, 11:37 PM
Kinda' OT, because it's not building something, per se. The situation is such that, we may be buying a different house, one with a sizeable WW shop. It's a free-standing building, well insulated, electrified, etc... But, like most outbuildings, it's sitting on a slab. A cold & hard concrete slab. Now I know the preferred way to "soften" it up and help with the cold is to lay down stringers, put some type of insulating board in between and then slap on your subfloor. Well, with the house purchase and $$ set aside for upgrades, my budget can't take that big a hit. I was thinking that even just laying say 3/4" subfloor directly down to the concrete, would cut down on the radiating cold and help dampen the foot-to-floor shock. The biggest thing I worry about with this nonsense is, should I be concerned with condensation under the underlayment? It's not a "brand new" floor (@4 years old) and from our visits, I could not see any telltale staining from dampness. Am I being stupid for even considering this or might it be a viable option?:confused:

Joe Suelter
02-26-2003, 12:37 AM
John, how about a layer of plastic first, to act as a vapor barrier? That should also help keep the moisture off the subfloor preventing rot. Also, I used to have a neighbor that had a garage workshop. He got a trailer load of pallets from a local distributing center (freebie), laid them out in the garage, trimmed the wall ones, then laid a sub-floor directly over these. The nice thing about that was that it wasn't permanent. He could take them apart and have a garage again when he moves. Not sure if this was a good idea or not, but it worked for him! Congrats on the new home(s)!!

Terry Hatfield
02-26-2003, 1:13 AM
John,

I used a bunch of horse stall mats in my shop. They probably won't help much with the radiating cold but sure help the feet and back. They are 4X6 and cost about $40 from the farm supply.

You can see some of them on my ducting page.

http://cnets.net/~eclectic/woodworking/Cyclone/Terry%20Hatfield%20DC%20ducts.htm

Just a thought

Terry

Bart Leetch
02-26-2003, 1:33 AM
This is not a dumb question at all. How about some of the interlocking mats.I purchased about 350 Sq. Ft. of these when they were an sale. Each package covers 16 Sq. Ft. They cover most of my open floor, great on the feet & has saved the sharp edges on a few of my tools from time to time. Also you don't need to purchase them all at one time. No hard assembly. When you move take them up & take them with you. Another nice thing about these mats is that you can take them up if you need to move a heavy piece of equipment & reconfigure them to fit the new situation. No hard labor just lay them down & lock them together. You only walk & stand in certain areas of the shop more then other areas put them down there first & then in other places as needed or when you have the money. I have about $150 total involved in mine & almost no labor.

John Miliunas
02-26-2003, 8:01 AM
Terry, Bart,

Yup, thought of both ideas already. Matter of fact, I spearheaded an effort at a production facility I worked at a number of years ago to acquire a bunch of the heavy stall mats and place them strategically in front of numerous machines. Lots of metal and aluminum production and the mats stood up really well, even in the welding area. I've looked at the interlocking mats, as well, but just don't know if I can swing the $$, as they're not the least expensive thing around. Appreciate both suggestions. Oh, and TERRY....Your shop is WAY to clean! :)
Also thought of the vapor barrier as Joe suggests. This may be my most economical route to take until I get enough scratch together to put install a more insulated base underneath and I could still use the underlayment.
Don't know...Might just end up using a combination of the three, for the time being. I eventually DO want to make a more permanent solution, as this is not a garage, but a dedicated shop area. That is, of course, if the guy accepts our offer and in turn, if we can sell our current house. Crazy, but much of that may depend on what's happening thousands of miles away from me here in Wisconsin! Thanks for the suggestions, gentlemen!:cool:

Lee Schierer
02-26-2003, 8:10 AM
I have no idea if this would work, but here goes. They make 3/4" tounge and groove plywood. Why not put down the plastic vapor barrier and then put down sheets of the tounge and groove plywood gluing the pieces together just like they do on the laminate flooring? It would make one really thick floating floor. It also could be removed in the future if needed.

Charles McKinley
02-26-2003, 8:11 AM
If you know anyone that works in a large plant that uses conveyor belts see if you can get the old belt when they replace one. The belt is about 1/2" thick and 4 feet wide. My dad got some and it also makes great truck bed liners.

Good Luck

Ted Shrader
02-26-2003, 9:38 AM
Originally posted by John Miliunas

. . . . . Don't know...Might just end up using a combination of the three, for the time being. I eventually DO want to make a more permanent solution, as this is not a garage, but a dedicated shop area. . . . .

John -

Why not use the temporary mats in front of the machines and around the workbench area for now. Since it is a new (to you) shop, there will be some tweaking in the arrangement department.

Then later on, when you get some more $$$ together, add the sleepers, insulation and possibly some floor outlets or other amenities that you do not even know you "need" yet.

Envious of the new shop!

Ted

Bart Leetch
02-26-2003, 10:04 AM
John

I mentioned the pad because it is the least expensive method. 16 Sq. Ft only cost me about $7.50 to put in a good floor even over just plastic I think will cost you more, not to mention the time & labor. I actually got more then enough to cover all my current shop floor & have more in storage then I am now using. You see I hope to move to a bigger shop some day too. I have enough to cover all areas that would be used the most in a 24' x 30' shop. My current shop is 13.5' x 24.5'.

John Miliunas
02-26-2003, 10:51 AM
Originally posted by Bart Leetch
John

I mentioned the pad because it is the least expensive method. 16 Sq. Ft only cost me about $7.50 to put in a good floor even over just plastic I think will cost you more, not to mention the time & labor. I actually got more then enough to cover all my current shop floor & have more in storage then I am now using. You see I hope to move to a bigger shop some day too. I have enough to cover all areas that would be used the most in a 24' x 30' shop. My current shop is 13.5' x 24.5'.

OK Bart. Only 'cuz I'm slow and missed the original sq/ft total. You've got my undivided attention. Where/what exactly did you get this stuff for less than a half a buck per sq/ft?! If that's the case, yes, that would indeed be cost effective today and I could still move/use it elsewhere or even on top of whatever permanent solution I did further down the road. Appreciate the info!:cool:

Bart Leetch
02-26-2003, 11:20 AM
I purchased mine at Costco the same corporation I understand owns Sam's & Wall Mart. Home Depot I have heard has them also Mine are black I understand there are packages of multi colored pieces.

John Miliunas
02-26-2003, 11:49 AM
No Costco, but we do have Sams & Wally World. Gee, hope they have them at as good a price and maybe a nice pink! (LOL) Seriously, it'd be nice to spread some out by the main workbench and assembly table, as that where one spends the most time. I'll give it a try...Well, when/if our offer is accepted. Thanks again!:D

Ken Garlock
02-26-2003, 11:56 AM
Costco is out of Washington state, as I understand. They are not associated with Walmart. Sam's is a part of Walmart. Walmart is listed on the New York Stock Exchange, and has recently become the largest grocery store chain the the country.

Costco and Walmart are competitors.:mad:

Bill Grumbine
02-26-2003, 12:02 PM
Hi John

My problem was similar to yours, only my concrete floor goes back to 1942. It looks like it was poured by drunken sailors it has so many waves to it.

Instead of putting in a new floor, which was too expensive, and would have made less room in the shop, I wear a good pair of boots with cushioned insoles. It makes a big difference. For machines at which I spend a good bit of time standing, such as my lathe, in front of the table saw, etc, I have those foam mats sold by woodworking stores. Since they are only in a few places, it is easy enough to move them around, or pick them up to clean around them.

Bill

Dr. Zack Jennings
02-26-2003, 12:11 PM
What about building a plywood floor on 1"x4" stringers but not covering the whole floor? 5/8" on 1"x4" stringers would be 1 3/8" thick. You could get 3 pieces 32"x48" out of a full sheet. Put these where you stand the most and use some kind of carpet tape to hold them in place. <p> You could even add some rubber product on top. This may be a little warmer (and softer) than a rubber mat alone and you save the costs of covering the entire floor.<p>
<center> How's this for a dumb idea?</center>

Ken Salisbury
02-26-2003, 12:17 PM
<p align="center">
Well -- you asked for it !!!

That was a dumb answer from:

<p align="center">
<IMG src="http://www.klsal.com/jenningsbanner.gif">

John Miliunas
02-26-2003, 1:13 PM
....the Pond. Lots of great suggestions. So many, as a matter of fact, that I think I will indeed try experimenting with several and see which suits me the best. I should have plenty of space to try different versions out, because the present owner would be leaving me his old assembly table>>49"x97"! Then there's the work areas in front of the stationary machines. Like I said, my hope is to eventually have an insulated floor, at least surrounding the assembly area. In the meantime, it'll be neat trying to find out which option(s) is(are) most comfy.
Oh, and is it just me or does the "Old Fart" seem to be just a bit feistier here at the SawMill than he was at the Pond? :D Thanks again guys!

John Sanford
02-26-2003, 3:35 PM
The old fart is feistier now because he has more graphics to play with. Add to that his self-adopted status as Sawmill Creek's Ambassador / Traveling Barker and a certain amount of rambunctousness is to be expected. :D

JayStPeter
02-26-2003, 4:48 PM
Most of the companies that sell the floating wood floor systems have some plan for installation on slab. Just go to Pergo or one of the others and see what they suggest. Use t&g ply instead of their flooring. Usually they use some sort of mat under the flooring that provides a softer and slicker surface for the flooring to expand/contract on top of. They may have special mats for concrete that allow some sort of vapor barrier as well.
I think the biggest concern I'd have is if you finished the top surface somehow that you'd have the floor trying to warp upward if the concrete did get some dampness into it from below. It seems like if you look at those pre-finished floating floor systems, the bottom has some sort of finish on it also.
Anyway, aside from all the rambling, a quick trip to the borg to look at floating floor systems and figure out how they work may help.

Dale Sherman
02-26-2003, 5:23 PM
Bill's idea of wearing quality insulated boots is probably the best, cost-wise.

I'd consider adding foamboard insulation around the perimeter that goes below grade several feet. Still costly, but the advantage is that the cold can penetrate into the concrete floor. Your floor will be thermally coupled to Mother Earth at around 56º.

Just one more idea...

Dale Sherman

Peter Gregory
02-26-2003, 6:24 PM
I had exactly the same problem. I cleaned the floor, used concrete sealer, put down a vapor barrier designed for linoleum floors (it has padding built in), then did the pressure treated 2X4's and plywood. The difference between the price of the plywood and the price of plywood on a vapor barrier and 2X4's wasn't that much. The plywood is the expensive part.

If I was going to save money, I would go for 4 or 5 horse mats. They will get you most of the solution for cheap.

Good luck.

Jim Amundson
02-26-2003, 6:53 PM
Hi John - I was just in your fair village yesterday - I'll be hunting turkeys just downstream in the Wisconsin River bottoms this Spring. I built newer 2 1/2 car garage and put a small shop in it. The other posts had some great ideas. I placed two large insulated windows (thrown out by my neighbor) on the south wall. I get great solar gain in the winter - parking the warm car there too helps, of course, but the dogs water dish doesn't freeze until the temp reaches about 15 degrees outside. I did a little research and got the angle just right for winter sun and summer shade. It keeps the concrete dry as well.
If you'd like to try out my new Delta 16" 2 hp steel bed variable speed lathe, give me a call. I'm in the phone book on Alden Drive in Madison. Hope you get the house. Jim (James H.) Amundson.

John Miliunas
02-26-2003, 7:05 PM
Pleased to make your acquaintance! Well, I'd wish you woulda' dropped me an email or something before treking out in this direction. I'm literally on your way (Hwy 14, @1/2 way between Arena & Spring Green and you can see our house from the Hwy!). Next time you're coming through, email me and I'll pass along my phone #. It'd be real neat to touch base with a fellow SMC member! And as for taking the lathe out for a test drive, I don't know....LOML is already "bending" quite a bit for stuff on my present list. Don't know if I would even try squeeking a new lathe past her and I just *know* once I drove it, I'd want one! Will definitely have to hook up for coffee or other such beverage real soon!:D

PeterTorresani
02-26-2003, 11:02 PM
John,

I was almost your neighbor. I was very close to accepting a job at a company in Spring Green. The only problem was that they didn't make an offer.:D

I do get pretty close to you every year though. A bunch of college buddies and I get together and canoe from Arena to Lone Rock. Usually more beer than fish. Always a good time.

John Miliunas
02-26-2003, 11:19 PM
Too bad you didn't get the job, Peter. Might that have been at one of the Cardinal Glass plants? Wouldn't surprise me, because I'm thinking that, as fast as they're growing, they must have just about drained all the local talent.

I've heard and spoken to loads of folks who have taken that little beer run....errrrr.....canoe trip. Yeah, that's it. Canoe trip. Crazy, 'cuz we live @2-1/2 miles from the river and have never done that. Mainly because LOML can't swim and is afraid to get into any boat much smaller than the Queen Mary!

At any rate, I'll extend the same invite to you as I did to Jim: If you're planning on being in the area, drop me an email and we could get together for a bee.....errrrrrrr.......soft drink. Yeah. That's it...Soft drink.:D