Pole barn versus stick built for shop?

[Brian Elfert]

What are the opinions on a pole barn versus stick built for a shop? In my situation, looks don't matter much, if at all.

My building will have a garage for a motorhome, wood shop, finishing room, and probably an area to store a tractor and other lawn/garden type stuff. The motorhome garage portion will be 60 feet long and at least 16 feet wide.

The pole barn is probably the least expensive to build, but is it really the cheapest to operate long term if heated and cooled regularly? It seems to be me that it would be more difficult to insulate and seal a pole barn than a stick built. I would also consider a panelized building as an alternative to stick built if the price is less.

My budget is certainly not unlimited, but I would rather spend a little more upfront if necessary than pay higher energy bills for years to come, especially with energy costs only going up.

The building will be located near Minneapolis, Minnesota so it does get cold at times.

Brian Elfert

[Lee Schierer]

You may need to consider the local building codes as to what is allowed in your area. The pole building design is designed for storage space and creating just plain space under a roof and behind walls. It lacks all the traditional framing and ability to put in things like insulation, wiring, doors, windows and other ammenities you may wish to add. Adding all of these will increase the cost and you may find that it comes out even in the long run.

One other factor, often overlooked is the fact that the poles are embedded in teh ground and will eventually rot off. Replacment will not be cheap when that happens. I have no idea how long the life expectancy for the poles would be. A conventional foundation is higher cost, but will be there almost forever if it is done right the first time.

[Steve Kohn]

I am not sure why you would not build two structures or one building with a walled and heated area inside. One part would be for the motorhome, tractor, and garden tools, while the second part would contain the shop and finishing areas.

I would think you would want to try to heat the storage of the motorhome and tractor. Plus why expose the motorhome and tractor to the dust from a woodshop.

[Ken Garlock]

IMO, a pole barn/building is good for unheated storage, but not a shop.

I suggest a steel building kit or a standard 'stick-built' building. Either type will require a concrete base/foundation. If I were doing it, I would do some serious investigation of the steel building kit/prefab.

Talk with Tyler Howard here on the forum, he just moved from Minneapolis to the country, and might have some good ideas.

I opinons are worth what you paid for them.;)

[patrick anderson]

have you considered using SIPS for your shop area?

[Brian Elfert]

My motorhome is actually a bus conversion that I am slowly working on. I plan on heating/cooling the motorhome area as needed.

I have been thinking that one building would be cheaper to build than two, but maybe not as a woodshop doesn't need 16 foot ceilings. It would be convenient for the woodshop to be next to the bus conversion as I will be working on stuff for the bus in the woodshop. I could somehow build the woodshop as an add on to motorhome garage with lower ceilings.

Yes, I've considered SIPS which is waht I meant by a panelized building.

Brian Elfert

[Ken Garlock]

Brian, it didn't occur to me that you would be considering SIPs. Our home and my shop are 8" thick SIP panels from Premier Building Systems (http://www.premier-industries.com/pbs/). If you go the SIP route, you will need a detailed set of plans for the company to cut the correct size panels. They will place the window openings, and door openings in the panels. Each panel will have raceways for electrical wiring. Roof spans are a consideration. We had to go with a stick-built roof because of the large roof span and height.

Yes, I would use SIPs again without hesitation.:cool:

[Kyle Kraft]

I built a 36 x 48 pole building with 12' sidewalls for my shop/storage combo unit. There is a partitioned off room 22 x 36 inside which is heated for my shop. There is 8" of insulation on the outside walls and r--13 on the partition and 10" in the ceiling, which is white pole barn steel.

I'm not sure what was meant by not being able to have windows, plumbing, wiring, insulation, rain gutters, etc. Mine has 'em all. The exterior is vinyl sided, shutters on the windows, and is actually more energy efficient than my house!!

My mom has a pole building that is 35 years old with no eavestroughs and the poles are SOLID!!

[Jack Dickey]

My pole barn is well , ancient , them poles aint going nowhere no time soon ..

[David G Baker]

I also have a 30x40x10 pole barn/building and I love it. It is well insulated and heated with a Hot Dawg forced air ceiling mount heater. I have another building that I use for a shop so only heat the pole barn to around 50 degrees in the cold Michigan Winter to keep things from freezing. It costs me approximately $30 per month for natural gas.
Many of my friends have pole barns and I have never heard any complaints. This may be a Michigan thing because there are thousands of them here.
In my opinion, any thing that can be done with a stick built building can be done with a pole building if it is built correctly. As far as the fear that the in ground poles will rot, plastic or metal sleeves are made that can be used to protect the in ground wood.
David

[Brian Elfert]

Some folks have brought up some good points.

The lot I want to buy is outside of any city and county regs will allow just about anything to be built including pole barns. Realtor said something about outbuildings cannot be taller than the house, but I don't understand how farmers build barns then. If I build the outbuildings before the house then height doesn't matter. I want a one story house.

If I go stick built, I will pay someone to draw some actual blueprints. These can be given to county and to SIPS fabricator. I assume for a pole barn that plans are included.

I'm not sure how I will heat yet. Wood with hydronic heat is low ongoing expense, but upfront cost seems to be high. If I have water in building, I will probably want backup heat source for leaving town and such.

Brian Elfert

[Ken Werner]

Just to throw in my .02, I built a 24 x 36 pole barn. The front 24 x 20 is unheated open garage. The back 16 x 24 is my workshop. It's wired, LP heated, insulated, sheetrocked, and has a wide plank pine floor. Talk about cozy. Anyway, you can do it, and I think it'll be alot less expensive than stick built. Also - you can have a real nice attic storage. One but of advice, make sure the builder spaces the roof trusses on centers that work well with 4 x 8 panels. Mine didn't and it was alot more work to fit the sheetrock.

Ken

[Matt Meiser]

My shop is a pole building that was existing. Insulation was more difficult as we had to build a "ladder" to accept the 16" wide insulation. However I was able to get 6" of insulation since the poles are 6" and only used 2x4's for the "ladder". I have 12' ceilings which I consider to be too high most of the time. The lumber yard I was working with to design a building before we found this house told me that the pole building would be considerably less expensive, even including the insulation issue due to the difference in the foundation. The regular stick built building (and I assume a SIP building) would have needed full footers at 42" deep. The pole building can have just a slab. I also seriously considered a Morton building. It wasn't cheap, but not as bad as I though either and they make a good looking building and have a system for insulaton that uses large blankets of 6" fiberglass that go between each pole.

[Eddie Watkins]

If I were building again, I would use typical house framing to build. The main reason is because you can add cabinets and things to the walls without having to put in supports to hold them. I have a metal building and it works fine except for hanging things on the wall. I have gone in and framed it as though it were a regular building so I could add additional insulation and also hang cabinets and tool boards.

Eddie

[josh bjork]

I put doors in buildings all the time but I don't recall seeing many that are big enough to hold a motor home with regular rafters, I dunno why. Tall stud walls would be 2x6 or 2x8? Insulation isn't bad if they wrap it in tyvek or whatever and you can get the ceiling tinned and blow insulation on it too, can't you? The only annoying part is tin walls or framing up for sheetrock but you pick your poison there. Heat is easy though, get the geothermal loop in and it will ease those payments just a bit....

[David G Baker]

Brian,
I have seen several pole buildings that were high enough to store full size motor homes in.
Another suggestion on the heating, have one side of your building facing East. Check out the Mother Earth passive solar heat article. It is much easier to add while the building is being built. I am thinking seriously about adding passive solar heat to my shop. The thing that gave me the idea was the roll-up door I have on my pole barn that points East, it is painted dark brown and in the middle of Winter if the sun is shinning the inside of the door is so hot I can't touch it.
The passive solar heat will not be my primary heat source but will cut my heating bill considerably.
David

[Al Killian]

I am all for pole barns. I worked out of one for about five years working on tractor trailers. I would like to add that the are also much quicker going up. A crew of three can have it up and ready for plumbing and wiring in less then a week. To insulate it get the blankets that go between the metal and the poles. For adding sheetrock just run a couple of 2xs across the poles and zip it up.If the poles are put in proper they should out last you. I have worked on farms that have pole barns over 40 years old and are in great shape. They only thing that couses them to rot out is standing water, so gutter are a must on any building.

[John Callahan]

Going through the same process at the moment- researching pole vs stick built. Morton Buildings has what they call they call an Energy Performer package which looks like it could be pretty effective. Blown in fiberglass for the ceilings, and fiberglass blankets for the walls. The blankets cover the entire wall- there's no thermal breaks like in a stick framed wall where the studs are. Price- don't know yet. There were a bunch of pole barn folks at the State Fair .......... was most impressed with Morton. Large factory network, insulation solutions, and interior choices (unfinished, metal, drywall etc etc) Biggest advantages to a pole barn that I can see is they go up fast and maintainance- Kynar 500 should hold up well. No hard numbers yet but I suspect price may be a pole barn advantage vs a conventional stick framed, sheathed, sided, and roof building. Biggest problem at the moment is a place to put the building :)- we're in the process of selling our current home and buying a place in the country- keeping all fingers and toes crossed and knocking on every piece of wood I can see till the process is over.

[Jim Becker]

Pole barns can be very functional and cost effective, but don't forget the cost of "framing" out inside when you are planning a more finished working area like a typical woodworking shop will be, unless you are fine with the sheet insulation that can be used in exposed situations. (Steel buildings have the same issue in a sense...you sill need something to support the wall material and infrastructure)

[John Callahan]

Morton's insulation is unfaced ......... they cover it with a poly vapor barrier and then horizontal 2x4 nailers roughly 2' apart between the poles to hang the interior walls (metal, drywall etc.). Looks to be a pretty decent solution and a less expensive one. Trying to get some R values and maybe talk to an actual owner.

[Ed Breen]

FWIW we've got two 30x50x12 pole barns. One is my shop and its too small since I became abyserrated. The second is the domain of She Who Rules. I use a granger radiant heating system, Betsy uses a woodburner. Each cost around 10 thousand with a concrete floor. Since we are both mature we dont worry about longevity of the buildings. Here in rural Oklahoma folks are building pole barns and converting them to live ins.
Ed:) :)

[David G Baker]

Another suggestion whether you go with stick built or pole built, check the grade of the land around the building site to make sure that the building floor is high enough to keep moving water from migrating into your building. I know a couple folks that built their own pole buildings and did not take this into consideration, they get water into their buildings every time it rains. I had to add 14 inches of sand under my slab to protect it against melting snow and rain.
David

[David G Baker]

FWIW we've got two 30x50x12 pole barns. One is my shop and its too small since I became abyserrated. The second is the domain of She Who Rules. I use a granger radiant heating system, Betsy uses a woodburner. Each cost around 10 thousand with a concrete floor. Since we are both mature we dont worry about longevity of the buildings. Here in rural Oklahoma folks are building pole barns and converting them to live ins.
Ed:) :)
Ed,
Went on line to find the definition of abyserrated and didn't have any luck, can you enlighten me.
David

[Brian Elfert]

roof building. Biggest problem at the moment is a place to put the building :)- we're in the process of selling our current home and buying a place in the country- keeping all fingers and toes crossed and knocking on every piece of wood I can see till the process is over.

This sounds like my plan. I want to sell my house in the suburbs and move out further where I can have upwards of 5 acres for a house and shop. I was originally going to build a shop here, but the city changed the rules recently and basically no outbuildings if you have an attached garage.

My plans really hinge on what I can sell my current home for. It is only five years old, but was built with lots of upgrades and has a lake view. It is not your typical new home with cheap vinyl siding and all that. The market now is a little soft, but that means I can buy for less too.

A number of people have said I should be able to easily sell my home for a good price because it is not located in a cookie cutter subdivision and it is a new house located in a mature neighborhood. We'll see what the realtor says on Monday.

Brian Elfert

[Jim Becker]

Ed,
Went on line to find the definition of abyserrated and didn't have any luck, can you enlighten me.
David

It's a term from the SMC Turning Forum...liken it to "assimilated"...the reference is to the turning addiction.

[David G Baker]

Thanks Jim. I thought it might be craft specific but didn't know which craft.
David

[Jim Becker]

David...it's an "SMC Exclusive", invented by Andy Hoyt (I believe) when SMC members started funding/donating mini lathes to worthy members who really needed to be introduced to turning. If you do a search on the word, you'll find threads and threads of good deeds!

[Rob Will]

Here is a pic of my pole barn. It is 48' x 80' x 16' high with a stick framed interior room for the woodworking shop. The other posts here are correct, there is a lot of cost involved with in effect..... building a building inside a building. Having said that, pole barn trusses on 4' centers with a white metal ceiling applied directly to the trusses is a good thing. Blow insulation on top and you're done.

BTW: I also have a storage bay / finishing room on the side. You will like 18' wide a lot better than 16'.

Rob

[Bob Smalser]

In earthquake country, by the time you finish paying for the engineering and meeting the shear and tiedown requirements, you'll wish you'd stick built, because you'll spend more.

[Matt Meiser]

Having said that, pole barn trusses on 4' centers with a white metal ceiling applied directly to the trusses is a good thing. Blow insulation on top and you're done.

That's how I did my ceiling too. My trusses are 24" OC and after seeing the pictures of Steve Clardy's shop, I don't think I'd want them too far apart in snow country.

[Jeff Kerr]

I have a pole barn that I had built about 3.5 years ago. It is 24x32 with 10' ceilings. 16' wide overhead door and a walk door. I have fixed windows for light and operational windows as well.

Mine is finished on the inside with the same sheet metal that is on the outside. If I were to do it again, I would use some type of plywood or t1-11 because of the rib joints on the sheet metal. That has made it difficult to hang items on the walls (not impossible). At the time metal was cheaper because of hurricanes driving up the demand on sheet ply.

Insulation is 6 inches in the walls, and 18 inches in the attic. I was out there tonight and it was 58 F in the shop and about 40 F outside. I have no heat source right now but am adding one for this winter.

I would get competitive bids from both types of builders. The great thing about mine is that it was done in about 15 days. (except the concrete poor). I think that is pretty fast considering I mean from site prep to under roof with doors windows and insulation done.

I ran all my powe in conduit outside the walls. Cost a little more but that was a personal preference for me in case I ever want to expand it.

Good luck

[John Callahan]

Is it necessary to use a vapor barrier? Is condensation ever an issue with a metal ceiling?

[Frank Chaffee]

Is it necessary to use a vapor barrier? Is condensation ever an issue with a metal ceiling?
John,
On the steel building we just had built for my mother in Wisconsin we speced ½ inch foil faced foam over the trusses and beneath the roof metal to prevent condensation.

Frank

[David G Baker]

Is it necessary to use a vapor barrier? Is condensation ever an issue with a metal ceiling?
John,
Condensation is an issue when you have a temperature differential in buildings. In my opinion, in most cases use a moisture barrier just to be safe. Condensation may be more of a problem in a metal building but it still exists in most structures if the air on one side of a surface is warmer than the other. If a metal ceiling is insulated it shouldn't be a problem.
David

[Jeremy Gibson]

Does anyone have pics of the interior framing done on a pole barn to support insulation and interior walls? This seems to be an issue with pole barns, but it's certainly not insurmountable.

[Evan Authier]

Hi there,
I was hoping my first post would be an introduction and a pictorial of my shop being built (almost done!:D ), but an oppurtunity has presented itself where I may be able to clarify something.

In response to Jeremy's post, I am currently building a 16'x36' pole barn w/10' ceilings. The poles are PT 6x6's, 8' apart and set 4' into the ground. I have 2x6's running horizontally (on the flat) every 2' between the poles and toenailed in, thereby creating a "horizontal stud". Once the electrical is done, I will be using 24" batt insulation between the 2x6's and then vapour barrier and drywall. I don't understand the problems with insulating a pole building as I don't see any difference.

Anyhoo, thats my introduction, and I'm looking forward to gaining some valuable knowledge from everyone here in the future.

Evan

[Matt Meiser]

Jeremy, I didn't stop to take picture--it went up too fast. What I did at the recommendation of the local lumber yard was to use horizontal 2x4'. The first one was a PT 2x4 laid on the floor between 2 poles with the front edge even with the front of the poles. This was toenailed to the poles. I then cut blocks from 2x4's that were 23" (or whatever the proper OC measurement of 24" OC insulation is) that were nailed to the poles. Another 2x4 was put on top of the blocks horizontally. This continued up the wall to the top. Then I stuffed each cavity with 6" insulation and covered everything with OSB. With 2 of my brothers helping me we built, insulated, and sheeted an entire 30x12 wall to separate two parts of the shop and insulated and sheeted the insides of the exterior walls in 2 days. That included replacing all the outlets that were along the walls with new double boxes and outlets.

[Wayne Ashing]

Brian, I had a 30 x 40 x 10 built about 3 1/2 yrs ago. Standard was 10' centers, get 8' will work out much better for interior framing. The crew that erected it for me had the kit delivered 1 wk before they were ready to start, showed up about 4:30 or 5:00 one evening, layed out the holes for the poles, drilled them, and layed out materials for next day. They begain work at 6:00am, and handed me the keys to the side door, had cleaned up and were gone by 4:30! These guys were good! I checked everything for square and WOW! it is better than my house! They even string line the screws! It took the concrete man about 2 days to level and pour the slab, even with lite showers the day of the pour, all work was inside and dry. Now how long it has taken me to get it half way insulated and wired is another story! I've probably less than 14 grand in it and I would recomind it to any one.

[David G Baker]

Jeremy, I didn't stop to take picture--it went up too fast. What I did at the recommendation of the local lumber yard was to use horizontal 2x4'. The first one was a PT 2x4 laid on the floor between 2 poles with the front edge even with the front of the poles. This was toenailed to the poles. I then cut blocks from 2x4's that were 23" (or whatever the proper OC measurement of 24" OC insulation is) that were nailed to the poles. Another 2x4 was put on top of the blocks horizontally. This continued up the wall to the top. Then I stuffed each cavity with 6" insulation and covered everything with OSB. With 2 of my brothers helping me we built, insulated, and sheeted an entire 30x12 wall to separate two parts of the shop and insulated and sheeted the insides of the exterior walls in 2 days. That included replacing all the outlets that were along the walls with new double boxes and outlets.
Matt,
I am doing the same thing to my 30x40x10 pole barn. Pressure treated 2X4 at the base horizontally and standard 2x4s every 24 inches. Haven't decided yet on the insulation because I already have 1 inch foam with foil on each side under my metal siding. I will probably use 6 inch fiberglass batts even if it is over kill. I have 10 foot walls and that leaves that 24 inch space not covered by the standard 4x8 sheet of OSB. I am thinking of hanging the OSB horizontally and have the 24 inches in between sheets so I can remove the 24 inch sheet for in wall access for future wiring, etc.
David

[Evan Authier]

Matt,
I am doing the same thing to my 30x40x10 pole barn. Pressure treated 2X4 at the base horizontally and standard 2x4s every 24 inches. Haven't decided yet on the insulation because I already have 1 inch foam with foil on each side under my metal siding. I will probably use 6 inch fiberglass batts even if it is over kill. I have 10 foot walls and that leaves that 24 inch space not covered by the standard 4x8 sheet of OSB. I am thinking of hanging the OSB horizontally and have the 24 inches in between sheets so I can remove the 24 inch sheet for in wall access for future wiring, etc.
David

David,

I like the idea of the 24" panel halfway up the wall. I was planning on using a sheet material that was more moisture resistant (cement board?) for the bottom 24", and then OSB or drywall for the upper 8', but I think I'm going to steal your idea instead. All of my electrical will be run just above the 48" mark anyways, may as well make it accessible.

Evan

[Jim Becker]

David, I also like the idea of the "independent" strip in between two horizontal sheets, whether it's a 10' wall or a 9' wall. An easy to remove "access panel" means, as stated, you can update wiring in the future without going to surface mount conduit.

[Jeff Kerr]

Jeremy,

Took me a while to find the photos. Here are a few shots. Basically there are horizontal 2x4's creating a cage around the inside and outside of the vertical poles. Then filled with insulation and covered in plastic wrap.

Jeff

51894 51895
51896 51897
51898

[Andy Bagozzi]

Things to consider! I am in the process of building a 30x60x12 pole barn. I chose this for a couple reasons. 1) Cost, I can get a much bigger building for far less money, and a building that will still be there when I am not. 2) Taxes. In my Township it is considered an accessory building, therefore taxes are far less than that of a Garage. 3) Ease of building it, it can be built probably 1/2 the time of a stick built garage.

They can be insulated! can be heated, can have everything a stick built garage has.

[Joe Chritz]

For a pole structure the insulation to look at is the rigid spray urethane foam.

Run purlins (they are called something else in this app but I forget) on the inside walls and attach your wall sheeting of choice.

Wiring is a bit more involved but only in making blocking where you want outlets.

I haven't been disappointed at all with mine.

Joe

[Walt Nicholson]

I have had 2 stick built in the past but with the new 30x50 shop I went pole built because I could get a lot more for the money and have a building I would much rather be in during an earthquake than a stick built. The vast majority of the shops in our area are pole built as well. 16' to the bottom of the trusses gives you all kinds of flexibility for building upper storage lofts or building a separate room in a corner with 10' ceilings that you can deck the ceiling and have tremendous storage on top. I got a good deal on some 2x6s so I nailed them horizontally around the walls, spaced about 4 feet apart so I had something to put R19 insulation bats behind and then fasten 4X8 drywall to. This is the same (as shown in the picture before interior work) way the outside was done for the siding. Since the drywall fastens to the 2X6, which fastens to the poles, there is tons of room behind the drywall for running electrical, pipe for air or even 4" duct for DC if you use that size. I used a 220 hanging heater and added a large ceiling fan to blow the heat down. Most snow on record here this year and everything was toasty. Just my 2 cents.

[James Suzda]

I have a 40 x 50 "attached" pole type construction garage and there are a few things that I would like to point out to you if you decide to use the pole construction. First make sure you are dealing with a company that knows everything there is to know about snow loads in MN. I think there are many more pole sheds that cave in during heavy snows than stick built buildings. Along the same problem of snow loads, if possible have the contractors use screws to put down the roof tin. When the snow pushes down on the tin nail fasteners will pull up and then will no longer seal when the tin goes back down.
Next, if at all possible put all the doors on the gable ends of a metal roofed building!! When you get a ton of snow sliding off the roof and it falls in front of the doors, it is a shock to the system.
As for insulation, I'd think about using a spray foam insulation. This will stick to the tin and fill up the openings between the rails and posts and will seal up everything nice and wind proof. Whereas conventional bats will allow wind to blow through the openings from the corrugation. (That "curvy" foam that they install deteriorates and falls out.)
Another thing I had my contractor do was to drill down all the posts as far as they could reach with their auger truck. Then I had them wrap the posts with plastic to above grade. Then I had them back fill the holes with small pea gravel and sand. Here in Wisconsin I live in a very heavy clay soil. When this stuff heaves it will push poles out of the ground. Back filling with sand and pea gravel the soil will just slide against the poles and not lift them. BTW, before I poured my floor, I had 3 feet of shell rock put in for a base and no re-bar or screen in the cement, but used that money to buy a heaver bag mix of concrete.

[Don Bullock]

Brian,
This is a very interesting thread and one I need to read carefully. I'm currently planning on a 24' x 40' shop/garage for my "new" home. Right now I'm leaning very strongly toward getting one built by Tuff Shed. Their garages are as good or better than the garage I presently have attached to my house and the cost is considerably less than a "stick built" structure. This weekend I plan to sit down with one of their sales reps. to see what the actual cost will be in the area where the house is. This might be an option for you as well.

50 days and I'm free!!!:D:D:D