How can these old style glazing bar profiles sit nicely in halving joints ?

[Jake Darvall]

Hello,

I want to plane up glazing bars with different profiles than the regular ogee types I'm used to. But I'm having trouble with visualising it. Thought maybe somebody could give me some help.

Got this absorbing book in front of me, on old wood working techniques and the like. And theres a diagram of some I'd like to try.

However, I'm at a loss to understand how some of these profiles will cross well in a halving joint.

First and second picture shows that halving joint....this is just the regular ogee profile (the book calls it an 'eliptical' ogee).

My understanding of these regular ogees is that the width of the tongue and the width of tip of the sashed profile should equal in order for the bars to slip over one another with a clean look.....
3rd picture

But, if the top of the profile is curved....not flat.....or.....these flat widths differ how can they cross nicely ?
4th picture shows a picture of some of the profiles I want to try.

I'd imagine a curved top profile would meet nicely at the joint if all 4 quadrants met at a single point, uno.......but, if you had a single point, that means there's basically no width left for the tongue to slip through. http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/images/smilies/confused.gif any ideas ? Have I described the problem well enough ?

ta.

[James Mittlefehldt]

Hello,

First and second picture shows that halving joint....this is just the regular ogee profile (the book calls it an 'eliptical' ogee).

My understanding of these regular ogees is that the width of the tongue and the width of tip of the sashed profile should equal in order for the bars to slip over one another with a clean look.....
3rd picture

But, if the top of the profile is curved....not flat.....or.....these flat widths differ how can they cross nicely ?
4th picture shows a picture of some of the profiles I want to try.

I'd imagine a curved top profile would meet nicely at the joint if all 4 quadrants met at a single point, uno.......but, if you had a single point, that means there's basically no width left for the tongue to slip through. http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/images/smilies/confused.gif any ideas ? Have I described the problem well enough ?

ta.
Hi Jake from the other side of the commonwealth.

I don't know the answer but am only shooting in the dark, though I suspect that someone will happen along who does know. I am looking at a an old book called The Practical Carpenter And Joiner, done originally in the twenties I think. It shows an illustration that is similar to your pictures 1 & 2, and shows it pretty much as you have it there.

It also shows glazing bars as you call them where the back and front are more square and the front half is the same as the back half, in this one the horizontal bar runs across the window, while the vertical one is let into a through mortise in the centre of the horizontal bar, and made in two pieces rather than running through.

I don't think I have ever seen sash bars or glazing bars that were of different widths, probably because as you noted joining them neatly would be difficult. They do not show any bars with rounded profiles so maybe they did not use them.

Doubt if that is much use but there you are. By the way what is the book you are looking at?

[Jake Darvall]

Hi Jake from the other side of the commonwealth.

I don't know the answer but am only shooting in the dark, though I suspect that someone will happen along who does know. I am looking at a an old book called The Practical Carpenter And Joiner, done originally in the twenties I think. It shows an illustration that is similar to your pictures 1 & 2, and shows it pretty much as you have it there.

It also shows glazing bars as you call them where the back and front are more square and the front half is the same as the back half, in this one the horizontal bar runs across the window, while the vertical one is let into a through mortise in the centre of the horizontal bar, and made in two pieces rather than running through.

I think thats just a tennon and cope joint of sorts......which sounds like the only way to do these joints like I have pictured using unusual curved topped profiles and the like.



By the way what is the book you are looking at?
The wooden Plane. Its history, form, and function. By Whelan. Its mostly about about plane types, but theres a chapter on sashmaking planes and techniques.

Really enjoying it actually. Answering a lot of questions for me. stopped a bit short on describing this problem of mine though.

I've been talking to others on another forum, and I'm beginning to believe you can't do halving joints cleanly this way with these domed topped profiles. Have to tennon and cope instead.

Who knows... I find this one tricky.

Thanks for responding James. :)

[Jim Holman]

I believe the book you are reading is based on english woodworking methods. In any old sash makers chest you are bound to find a sash doweling box or two. As you have discovered some of these profiles cannot be joined with a halfing joint. Doweling on the muntins is the answer that works for me.

[Jake Darvall]

Thanks Jim for your input.

I posted a similar thread here in Australia. And I was put straight. Along the lines of what your saying with dowels. But also small tenons.

Thinking both could be used. Dowels, I'm guessing in this application would be quite strong since it seems entirely long grain to long grain gluing.

Here's the photo I was showen.

I've managed to work out how to cope the negitive profile into the bars, but haven't tried making a jig for drilling those dowel holes yet.

Sounds like that Sash doweling box is the answer .... I wonder what that looks like.

Have a good weekend mate.