is live oak and white oak the same?

[mark george]

I am rebuilding a 36 motorsailer with a fiberglass hull and wood topsides, I have been told that LIVE OAK is the best wood locally for me to but that will work well in a marine enviroment, I live in Houston Texas,, is live oak the same as white oak?

[Jake Helmboldt]

No, live oak and white oak are not the same.

Live oak is Quercus virginiana

White oak is Quercus alba

White oaks are largely tall and thin, live oaks are the massive, low-branched, spreading crown oaks more prominent in the deep south.

[Ian Abraham]

Quercus alba is the 'classic' white Oak, but there are many other species that are classed as white oaks. Quercus virginiana is also considered a 'white' species.
Here is a list of most of the oak species.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Quercus_species

I would suggest that although it's not exactly the same as Q. alba it can probably be used as a good substitute. It will have similar strength and durability.

Cheers

Ian

[Mike Parzych]

Somewhere I heard that live oak is what they use to repair Old Ironsides, so I guess you're safe using it on your project.

[Tyler Howell]

Somewhere I heard that live oak is what they use to repair Old Ironsides, so I guess you're safe using it on your project.
It's what the used to build old Ironsides. Very stable, dense, material:cool: .

[Rod Torgeson]

Mark....If I remember correctly, I believe Mike and Tyler are correct in that they used live oak in old ironsides. I visited that ship and the maritime museum next to it in 1980 and they showed where they needed a half "Y" support they used the crotch from a live oak tree.

Hope this helps. Rod<---in Appleton, WA

[Dan Gill]

Live oak "knees" were used in many, many wooden ships. In fact, at one time the Department of the Navy considered live oaks to be a strategic resource.

The planking of Old Ironsides was white oak, I believe. I know that's what they use to repair it now, according to a program I saw a couple of years ago.

[Jake Helmboldt]

All oaks are genus Quercus, but that doesn't mean they are the same or have similar properties relative to their wood. As many here will attest, red oak and white oak are quite different when it comes to woodworking suitability. Both are Quercus.

However, both live oak and white oak were used in ship building and white oak is known to be used for exterior applications like fence posts, so it is rot-resistant. Ironsides was built from live oak supposedly, not white.

I would look into getting info from boat builders that have specific experience with this issue and see what they say. Making a piece of furniture that doesn't work out or a set of exterior shutters that rot is a lot different than outfitting your boat with.

One thing to remember is that oak (at least white oak) discolors badly when exposed to water (it turns black).

Jake

[Don Abele]

If you want to know about Old Ironsides I can answer your questions. I am currently stationed aboard her as the Command Senior Chief (I am in charge of the 60 enlisted active-duty Sailors aboard).

The CONSTITUTION's hull is built like an Oreo cookie: 2 outer layers of horizontal planking of white oak and in inner layer of vertical live oak. In this manner, the architecht basically constructed plywood 209 years ago. Of course we are talking about plywood that is 18-28 inches thick!!! And you wonder why we are called Iron Sides?

Live oak is 8 times more dense than white oak. If you throw it in the water, it will sink. It is also VERY hard on cutting tools. I can personally attest to how fast it can dull a carbide bit and how slow you must feed it. It is only one of a few woods that I hate working with.

As for decking, the live oak on the CONSTITUTION is generally not exposed to salt water as it's the inner layer. The external hull, as I said is white oak and painted with a marine grade paint. The top deck (spar deck) is white oak 8 feet from the gunwals (to support the guns) and the rest is douglas fir. We seal the decks with marine spar varnish, but even so, with all the salt water and sun light, they are a deep black color. We do not holy stone the decks as they would have been done 200 years ago to keep them bright white. Our decks are in excellent shape and the currrent wood on them is well over 100 years old!!!

Not sure how much this helps you other than saying I would personally not build anything from live oak. If it were me, I'd look at teak which we used on our battle ships and is still in use today.

Be well,

Doc

[John Schreiber]

If you want to know about Old Ironsides I can answer your questions. I am currently stationed aboard her as the Command Senior Chief
Don,

It's an honor to have you as part of this community. Have you ever been aboard when she's sailing?

[Jim Mackell]

Don,

It's an honor to have you as part of this community. Have you ever been aboard when she's sailing?

Hopefully Don will be back to answer the question personally but it's my understanding that the ship only sails once a year. Each July 4th it's sailed into the harbor and "rotated" so that the boarding ramp is on alternate sides each year. If you're ever in the Boston area, it's a great tour.

Don, wishing you fair weather and following seas.

[Don Abele]

The ship gets underway between 6 and 8 times each year. This has dramatically increased from the days when they did a single 4th of July "turn-around". This was done to allow the ship to weather and wear evenly from year to year. She was towed into the harbor, turned around, and re-moored in the opposite direction.

We still do the turn-around, but have increased the number of underways for public demonstration and excellent press. Our first is the 2nd Saturday in June and the last is the first Friday in September.

On all but the last 2 (last Friday in August, first Friday in September), they are open to the public. Each underway has a theme to it, so certain groups are invited to each. For the 4th of July one, it is open to the entire United States via lottery. You can enter on our website (www.ussconstitution.navy.mil). By the way, we take 400-500 people underway, but have had as many as 900 onboard at one time.

The last 2 underways are actual sailing demonstrations. This is not open to the public as we bring in an additional 200 Sailors to help set sails. This is truly a sight to behold - she looks magnificient with her sails set. So to answer your question in a long, round-about way, yes, I have been actually sailing on her - 4 times and will get to do it 2 more times before I leave.

It really is an amazing ship, more so from our point of view in regards to the woodworking techniques that are used on her. I hope to eventually get some time and put together a photo essay of it, including some shots of our awesome wood shop with some seriously large toys...uhh...tools.

If I can answer anything else for you, please let me know.

Be well,

Doc

[John Schreiber]

I've read a bit about the restoration of that magnificent ship. As a sometimes sailor, I am in awe of the skill it takes to manage her.

I remember reading that the first time she was at sea under her own power after her restoration, the captain had no experience with actual wind driven boats. At first that seemed foolhardy, but then I read what other ships he had commanded. I think it had included the testing of a 50 mph hovercraft destroyer and other experimental ships. He was obviously a very smart guy highly trained in command decision making. He also had a couple of experienced square rigger captains at his side just in case.

I'll fill out that lottery form. Of course I'd really like to ride the waves with her under sail.

[Carl Eyman]

Thanks, Don, for your contribution. I have two comments. The whaling ship, Charles Morgan, which is at Mystic Seaport Museum in Mystic CT is about to undergo a massive rebuild. The museum has been collecting live oaks blown down in hurricane Katrina to get enough knees to replace those in need of it. I've heard they have or expect to have 200 truckloads of them to do the job.

My second point is this. Back in the 1960's a group of my friends bought a 65 ft+ schooner refurbished it and sailed it until the 1968 hurricane "Camille". She lost both masts in that blow; so while waiting for new ones they took the opportunity to do some other work. This was a double planked hull. That is a layer of planking on the outside of the frames and another on the inside. To their horror they found the frames were almost completely rotted. They were oak. The information they got at the time was that oak made a wonderful wood for boats that were to be operated in colder waters but it was very susceptable to rotting in warm waters. I cannot say I know this for a fact, but if I were building a boat to sail out of Houston, I'd want to check it out. PS, I don't know what kind of oak it was.

Don, of course, the Chas. Morgan is just a pup compared to your ship. She was built in 1847, forty some years after yours. She was still whaling up to the 1920's I believe.

[Bruce Page]

I toured the CONSTITUTION back in the mid 90’s and was awestruck by her grace and beauty. The museum is a must see also.
Don, you and your predecessors have done a wonderful job of preserving her!

[Scott Neblung]

They are in the same subspecie family so the answer is .............yes.

Now if you said pin oak.......than no.........as thats a red oak.

Scott

[Don Abele]

Carl, it's funny you mentioned the live oak from Katrina. A firm down there that was contracted to do a lot of the clean up actually contacted us and was going to donate the live oak to us. Unfortunately, as the military goes, we could not accept it because we have very specific standards of where we get the oak from and how it's harvasted. We currrently have a fairly large on-hand stock of it and we own a grove of live oak in Kings Bay, GA. We very rarely replace any live oak, so it's really not in all that big of demand from us.

As for warm water deteriorating oak - CONSTITUTION primarily patrolled north of the equator and now sits in some pretty cold water, so I could say that it sounds likely to me. The other thing to remember though, the underside of our hull, from about a foot above the standing water line to the keel is completely covered in copper. The original sheeting was produced by Paul Revere and his sons (who produced all the copper for the ship). This serves not only to protect the hull, but also prevents marine growth on the hull. Our sheeting was repaired in 1997 and when inspected last year was still in perfect condition.

At the end of 2007 we will be starting a 3 year restoration on her. We will remain open through the entire thing. In 1979 Congress passed a law protecting and preserving the CONSTITUTION. Part of that law states she has to be maintained in her originial configuration. So a 50 year plan was created to return her to that configuration. This next restoration is one of the last major steps. We will be completely stripping the entire spar deck of all deck planking. The deck is currently flat - this was done to make walking on her easier. Unfortunately, it is not historically accurate. The original deck had a camber to it which would shed water off into the scuppers at the gunwals. We are going to restore that camber. So all the deck comes up, the traverse beams will be cambered in place, and then all the decking goes back down. Nominally a 3 year process, but we are hoping to get it done sooner.

Be well,

Doc