New back saw advice - teeth size etc.

[Robert Trotter]

Hi folks, I've searched but haven't found what I want. Either not there or I am not there on how to search.:o

I am looking at some small back saws for doing mainly mortice and tennons and general cutting to length of smaller pieces and for some dovetails and for making cuts for dados, grooves and sliding dovetail joints. You know, everything.:D

I am thinking of carcas or small tennon saws as I thought they would be the most useful. Limited buget so probably two saws. X-cut and rip.

I was thinking that I could use them for dovetails when I need to as well rather than a dedicated dovetail saw. Is there any problem with using a small tennon saw (carcas saw) for dovetails?

So now to my question:-
What tpi or ppi is good?
Does tpi recomendation change for softwood or hardwood and for different hardwoods?
Also what set or kerf? and rake?

I would like something not too hard to start. (which I have read LNs are)

I am a hobbyist so time is not the major factor. Obviously I don't want to spend five minutes making one small tennon cut. I would like a good finish. Going for cut and join with minimal or no paring.(when my skill gets there of course- but I will be trying - gotta aim high:) )

I was thinking of 16tpi for a cross cut saw and maybe similar for the rip saw. Going for the lower range for useful blade depth for the x-cut and the deeper blade for the rip saw. My thinking is that deeper for cutting tennons (rip) would need more depth　and cutting shoulders would be more of a shallow cut.

Is this reasonable thinking? Your advice?

OK now about me...to help you help me...

I don't have any western saws and haven't used one for 19 years. I have some Japanese saws (I live in Japan). They cut very thin kerf and leave a nice finish. If cutting things like dovetails I have no problem with the thin boards. But when cross cutting the shoulders for example on a tennon on wide face I sometimes get a bit wavy. Or cutting the tennon cheeks.
Also, I would just like to have a very nice western saw to use. :D
(this is the main reason, really. Just trying to justify the cost:D )

I like the japanese saws and they cut quick. I have read that they are better than western saws especially for finish. but I have also read that a good western saw tunbed and sharpened correctly will be just as good. Is this right?

I have used mainly softwoods till now and Japanese saws are designed for softwoods really. But I want to use mainly hardwoods from now.

So people say 15tpi or 14 tpi or whatever and I don't really know the difference in cut speed and quality. Most Japanese saws I have, have a LOT more teeth. Probably getting up to double. So your thoughts and advice on tpi etc for speed and finish would be greatly appreciated.

My general thinking is that the more teeth the merrier but I am sure this is not right.

Robert
(Japan)

[Ken Bryant]

The good news is, the more the teeth, the finer the cut.

The bad news is, the more the teeth, the slower the cut.

[Robert Rozaieski]

Number of teeth really depends on how thick the lumber you are going to saw is. For boards in the 3/4" range I like about 12-14 tpi. If the teeth are too small (if there are more TPI) they will clog before they have a chance to exit the saw kerf and clear the sawdust and stop cutting, slowing your cutting time dramatically. The thicker the board the less tpi you want. If you will work in narrower stock, you can go with a higher tpi. I have 2 carcass saws (1 rip and 1 crosscut) both at about 12-13 tpi. These are basically used for cutting case pieces to length, carcass dovetails and tennons in larger pieces. I have one dovetail saw (rip) I use for dovetailing thinner stock for drawers and such and cutting small tennons that is around 18 tpi. This saw will cut up to 3/4" stock but it's really not ideal for stock that thick. The cutting slows noticeably.

The other thing is since tennons cheeks are cut along the width of a board, you generally want more tpi for cutting tennons so the teeth don't clog up as much, even in thin stock.

[Charles McKinley]

Hi Robert,

Adam Cherubini had an article in Popular Woodworking #157, Oct. 2006. It cover the PPI /pitch,rake, fleam and set and how it affect a western saw.

He recommends keeping 10 teeth in the kerf for dove tail and other fine work. This comes out to 14 ppi for 3/4" stock. More rake for harder woods and makes starting easier but slows cuts in softer woods.

www.vintagesaws.com has a great tutorial on sharpening saws and details the terms I mentioned above. They can also set you up with a quality vintage saw sharpened to your specs and furnish the files to keep it cutting. Cook's (sp) Saw Sharpening in York PA may also have saws for sale.

I have 17 ppi on my one saw and it is way too fine on 3/4 but is fine on 1/2."

I will be sending some saws out probably to Cook's unless I can locate the guy in Erie that sharpens by hand as the saws I have need major overhauls and am going through theses questions myself. I can sharpen the saws I have that the teeth are OK but I think I made the saws that needed makor tooth wokr the same or worse when I jointed them and tried to reshape the teeth. I have the benefit of access to $3 auction saws though to practice on.

I think going through one of these vendors will save you a lot of money and provide you with the quality of saw you want. You will have the shipping cost regaurdless if you go new or used.

Mike Wenzeloff (sp sorry Mike) make awesome saws that would be custom made but may not fit your budget. Try searching Mike's post there have been many discussions he has contributed to on sharpening and tooth shape and number.

[Robert Trotter]

Hmmmm.... Is that how it goes Ken?:rolleyes:

Robert said,


If the teeth are too small (if there are more TPI) they will clog before they have a chance to exit the saw kerf and clear the sawdust and stop cutting, slowing your cutting time dramatically. The thicker the board the less tpi you want.

And


The other thing is since tennons cheeks are cut along the width of a board, you generally want more tpi for cutting tennons so the teeth don't clog up as much, even in thin stock.


Sorry Robert, but these sort of contradict each other. :confused: I don't quite get what you are saying about the tennons. Wouldn't it be equivalent to a thicker piece of wood so you would need a lower tpi?

Charles, thanks for the info.
I will have a look at the sites. And actually I was thinking of Mike's saws. Just trying to get some info so I understand how it works and what to ask for. But still thinking at the moment.

Is there a reason for having a cross cut saw at different tpi than a rip saw?

Robert

[Robert Rozaieski]

Sorry for confusing you Robert. Sometimes my fingers don't quite type what my brain is thinking. You are correct. A tennon is equivalent to a thicker board so you want LESS teeth per inch, not more. I knew what I meant! ;)

As for number of crosscut vs. rip teeth, my two carcass saws are very close in tpi (I think 12 for the crosscut and 13 for the rip). They work well for the operations I use them for (tenon cheeks and general joinery crosscuts).

[Robert Trotter]

Thanks Robert.

That must have been a popular name, hey:D

If I decide to go with Mike W's saws I think I will just trust him and follow his advice on tpi/ppi etc.
I just need to decide on the useable blade depth.

The last project was a chair and my next projects wll be a hall table. So mortice and tennon with small parts 1/2" to 3/4" and legs probably 40mm (1 1/2")or bit less motice and tennon. How much "leftover" blade should I have? 1/4" or more? So would 2 1/4" or 2 1/2" useable blade depth of the saw be right for the above table? For the chair I made the deepest tennon cheek was 55mm or 60mm across (less than 2 1/2") width of cut moticed into the 40mm legs. All others were smaller. tpi???

I have looked at few sites for second hand saws and some of them are pretty expensive really considering they a not a lot cheaper than a new one from mike and they need to be sharpened etc anyway. Plus I would have to get more stuff just to refurbish them, so I think a new custom saw will be the way to go.

Robert

[Jay Davidson]

I would agree with the recommendation for Mike Wenszloff at http://www.wenzloffandsons.com/saws/.

The LN back saws also cut incredibly well - perfectly balanced, fast cuts, and accurate.

"Buy quality and only cry once."

[Robert Trotter]

Thanks Jay. Do you have any of Mike's saws?