Quality

[Mark Pruitt]

This should possibly go in the General Forum, but since you guys are the ones I spend the most SMC time with, I'll just say it here.

Just barely over a month ago I bought a new Rikon Mini. Out of the box, it had a boogered-up tailstock, which Tom Sherman at the Roanoke Woodcraft store gladly replaced. Tom is a great guy, and I cannot say enough good about the way he took care of that problem.

Two weekends ago, the set screw for the spindle lock gear worked its way loose and I had to get a new screw (old one undoubtedly got lost in a pile of shavings). To properly install the set screw, the switch must be removed, and the two grommets on the rear popped out to enable the user to pull the switch far enough out to gain access to the set screw. It is recommended that the screw be reinforced with Thread Lock (why in the world did they not use Thread Lock to begin with? Cutting corners?).

So here I am today, trying to work these stupid grommets loose, having a terrible time with it, and just seething with anger over the fact that some moron didn't care any more about doing the job right than to improperly install a set screw. (And you know I am wondering what else was done wrong, that hasn't bitten me yet!)

I bought this lathe because I enjoy turning, not because I wanted something that I would have to work on. One month into using it, two problems already. Don't get me wrong--as to the lathe itself, it is a fine machine and has performed nicely. But given these experiences I will likely never buy another Rikon tool. The Woodcraft people have gone out of their way to help me and I appreciate them very much. I will be their customer for a long, long time. But probably not Rikon's.

So, here's what this all boils down to. I am going to purchase another lathe some time in the coming months, and this time I am going to buy Quality. I don't give a rat's you-know-what if the thing costs ten grand or if I have to take out a second mortgage to pay for it or sell half of everything I own. I am angry, and dang it, I am going to have a quality machine. Period.

And forgive me if this is inappropriate. I needed to vent, and thanks for "listening."

Mark

[Matthew Fallon]

bummer,

i came really close to purchasing an 18" Rikon bandsaw. i passed after quite a few people experienced tracking problems,and other faulty parts etc...
something thats going to get a lot of use like a lathe or bandsaw i think i'd rather pay more for quality..i'll be looking for a used laguna or minimax...

i have the jet mini-lathe, and though i dotn use it often(my big guy is a 1960's powermatic model 40.) i really love it when i do, the fit/finish etc, it just feels like a tight little machine . the speed belt takes seconds for me to switch now...
got it on a real good sale at amazon,and had a jet rebate as well :)
only other mini i tried were a penn state and a grizzly. i still liked the jet best.but grizzly was cool in that the speed could go real slow,like 5 RPM,be good for applying finishes maybe.

[Jim Becker]

Mark...bummer on the tool being less than you anticipated. It happens sometimes. I'm sure that the machines you are now considering will meet your expectations...there are a lot to choose from when you move up to the next level away from the mass production machines as you hinted to in another thread. (The PM 3520 being an exception as it's an exceptional machine for being mass produced)

Buy heavy, big swing and VFD variable speed. (2hp) Match the format of the machine to the work you like to do and intend to do. Try to turn on the machines you are considering if at all possible before you buy...it is likely that there is someone who has them within some reasonable (or at least acceptable) distance of you. You're certainly welcome to come up and take a "spin" on my Stubby and I bet Bill will help you out with a trial on the Vega on the same trip.

[Bill Grumbine]

So, here's what this all boils down to. I am going to purchase another lathe some time in the coming months, and this time I am going to buy Quality. I don't give a rat's you-know-what if the thing costs ten grand or if I have to take out a second mortgage to pay for it or sell half of everything I own. I am angry, and dang it, I am going to have a quality machine. Period.
Mark

Hi Mark

For $50.00, I won't email this to Susan. :D I know just how it feels. Back in the old days of my beginnings, I had one of the very early production Jet 1236 lathes. I was calling in to Jet service to get parts under warranty (again) and the guy on the other end of the line remarked that I must have had just about everything that could go wrong with this lathe go wrong. I think he was right. Hopefully you have reached that point already and things will smooth out for you.

Bill

[Corey Hallagan]

Mark, I hope your not setting yourself up for dissapointment. I think you are wrong to strictly relay quality to cost. There are many cases documented here on SMC of people who have bought "quality" machines and have been dissapointed by the problems they have encountered. Fact is... any given machine tool can encounter problems from the get go. Call it luck of the draw. The key is having good people to deal with that can fix it and you :). As you said, Woodcraft has gone the long yard in fixing you up.

I have a low dollar lathe... PSI Turncrafter Pro. costs 159.00. Not one problem...bottom line. The Jet Mini is a very good lathe.... yet folks have had problems on occassion with them. The new General Maxi lathe.... you would expect much from General.... wham one member here purchased one and is having problems.

In my experience in buying top of the line products... often I have been dissapointed in the outcome. Spending more dollars just does not ensure you won't have the problems.

Many folks have been using the Rikon and have had absolutely 0 problems. Again.. luck of the draw. Good luck!

Corey

[Mark Pruitt]

Thanks for the feedback. Jim, I did have an opportunity to put in some time on Bill's Vega back in July, and even as inexperienced as I was I had an extremely positive experience and I know that I would enjoy owning one. I've never turned on a PM 3520; there is probably someone local who would let me test drive one. I appreciate your offer to try out the Stubby. I looked at it on the web and the S750 is a pretty incredible machine.

While I am not going to allow money to be a primary factor in what I choose to buy, it looks like for less than $3500 I can get my hands on something that will set me for life and not have me wishing at some point that I had sprung for more. If I can accomplish that with less than $3500, then so much the better.

Two machines that have my attention at this point are the PM 3520B and the Vega 2600. Two very different machines, each with strengths and each offering accessories that mitigate the substantial difference between them. Between the two, the 3520B is likely what I will end up buying.

But nothing is certain at this point. Except for the fact that life is too short to spend it screwing around with tools that disappoint.

[Travis Stinson]

You'll be very happy with the 3520 Mark. I've had mine about 1 1/2 years and have had zero problems or regrets, and I've given it a workout. Like you said, life's too short to have any regrets about tools. Get it and don't look back.;)

[Andy Hoyt]

Mark - Another approach to contemplate is what John M has done. He's got a chevyvegathingamabob for big stuff and a smaller (I forget what flavor) spindle lathe for - ummm - spindles. Of course, John never actually turns his machines on, but the notion seems to hold water. If space isn't at too much of a premium in your shop it might be an equally affordable consideration.

[Jim Bell]

Too bad about your experience w/ the Ricon. I bought an inexpensive lathe a couple yrs ago. Had similar problems as you. I finally disassembled the entire machine. I carefully cleaned, deburred, lubricated and reassambled taking care to tighten and adjust the entire machine. It has worked perfectly since. the lathe is a Carba-tec. I figure it was assembled in China on early Monday or late Friday. I turn nothing but pens and the like on that machine. I also have a Delta Midi and a PM3520. The Delta just simply spins things for me. The PM 3520 at about 3hrs had a bearing in the headstock go bad. Service people said unheard of and I agree......except for mine. They sent a service rep over from Tampa. He replaced both bearings and all has been well since(3 yrs) you just never know. My turning club has several Ricon lathes that are used on a regular basis. So far there have been no problems.
Jim

[Bill Boehme]

So, here's what this all boils down to. I am going to purchase another lathe some time in the coming months, and this time I am going to buy Quality. I don't give a rat's you-know-what if the thing costs ten grand or if I have to take out a second mortgage to pay for it or sell half of everything I own. I am angry, and dang it, I am going to have a quality machine. Period.

And forgive me if this is inappropriate. I needed to vent, and thanks for "listening."

Mark

I hear you brother! Just say the word when you want us to grab our torches and pitchforks.

I have used a PM 3520 on many occasions and it doesn't leave anything to be desired as far as I would ever need to turn.

Bill

[Mark Pruitt]

So early this morning I went out to mount a cherry blank on the Rikon. You will not believe this. The spindle lock gave way on me! I am at my wit's end. I've done everything right and this thing has given me so much grief. I kept the box. I'm boxing her up right now and will be out the door with it in a few minutes. This is insane.

There is simply no excuse for this kind of shoddy workmanship.

Thank you guys for helping me deal with a "bad" weekend--although I have to keep it in perspective. There is much that I have been blessed with.

[Chris Barton]

Hi Mark,

You are doing the right thing. Trade it in at your local woodcrap toward a PM3520b.

[Jim Becker]

Mark, I agree...take it back. Fortunately, Woodcraft is pretty good when it comes to such things and yours apparently knows of your issues already.

[Gary DeWitt]

Sorry to hear about your problems. At least SOMEONE will stand behind the sale.

There is never enough time to do it right, and allways enough time to do it over! Quality around the world is on a downswing, has been for about half a century.

I was head of quality control at a large printing company my last position. We did it right the first time. Period. Management hated it, but when I left the company after 6 years, it had doubled in size, production, and revenue, and still had all the clients it started with and many more. This doesn't happen with shoddy work. I defy anyone to find an error of any kind in a Disney DVD or VHS package between 1998 and 2004!
There was a guy named Demming who researched production techniques and "discovered" that quality control was too expensive and time consuming, and promoted "quality assurance", whereby each and every person involved was responsible for thier own quality control. Doesn't work. People are somehow unable to "see" their own mistakes. That's why there was a quality control department in the first place! There are several books by and about this guy, and he's well respected and his metods are used worldwide now. Well, that's the direction my company took, and they began the long slide into oblivion. Hopefully for them, they'll wake up before they go bankrupt.
Leaving soap box now...back to your regularly scheduled curmudgeon.
Good luck with your next lathe!

[Andy Hoyt]

Speaking of quality, Gary. How's that new General working out? I was impressed by its specs.

[Mark Pruitt]

...and there is a Delta Midi sitting where the Rikon once sat. Chris, I would have loved nothing more than to put the credit toward a 3520B, but I've got to do a little more studying before I take the Big Leap. In the meantime I need something to use, plus I am by no means forgetting that the LOML needs to make her way into the Vortex as well.;)

Gary, you raise an excellent point. I have known for a long time that I can proofread someone else's work much more easily than my own. That goes hand in hand with what you're saying. BTW, like Andy I am curious as to how you're enjoying the General thus far.

Who knows how this Delta Midi is going to do, but I'm choosing to be optimistic. The sad part of all of this is that the Rikon is IMHO a more well-designed machine. It has spindle indexing positions, a shroud over the motor to keep shavings from falling directly onto it, a 12" swing as opposed to 10", and the belt/pulley assembly is more easily accessible. Plus, it has the handle on the left end to make it easy to carry, and a little tool caddy on the back. But all of that means nothing if it is built by morons!

Oh well, I'm going to go out and get dirty and see what I can make of what time is left. Thanks again guys.

[Mark Pruitt]

Oops...I forgot...picture required. Gotta keep the pic police satisfied!
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[Bruce Shiverdecker]

Wow Mark, you have had a terrible time. It seems that you alone have had more go wrong than all of us others combined together. It's a shame that the Woodcraft store or Rikon didn't just swap you for a new one.

I've run mine Hard for about a year now and the only thing I had go wrong is that the screw that locks the banjo down tore the threads and had to be replaced.

Sorry you had the bad experience. I can understand why you would want to replace it and get another one.

Bruce

[Gary DeWitt]

Allllllright, now that TWO people have asked, including the OP, I'll talk about the general. Don't feel like I'm hijacking the thread now. So far it's great! I turned a bit on it yesterday, and will some more today, really enjoy the VS on it. I roughed out a 10" olive blank the other day, starting at about 300 and going up to about 700, no problem. A bit of vibration at around 475, but it went away at a higher speed and didn't seem to threaten to "walk".
I have added around 300 lbs sand in and between the legs. If I have any more trouble with out of balance wood threatening to tip it over, I'm going to widen the feet by bolting on some 1/2" plate steel, maybe 6-8" bigger all around each foot.

I'm glad to see you got a Delta midi to tide you over. I have had one for about 2.5 years, the only trouble I've had with it is breaking off the lever that tightens the tool rest to the banjo. I suggest you start looking for a metric replacement in steel soon, if you tend to over tighten stuff like I do.
You will probably find it very easy to change belts after using it awhile, I did. If you get a squeek in the spindle right near the handwheel, there are TWO set screws that hold it on, DAMHIKT. My handwheel was too tight, causing the whole spindle to heat up after an hour or two, so I loosened it. Still squeeks now and then, so I spray wd-40 when it does.
Overall, a pretty good lathe, especially for the price. I'm keeping mine to use for sanding, buffing, or just turning something really small that seems ridiculous on the general.
Good luck in your search for the "perfect" lathe. I think there are many fine machines out there (and some real dogs) but there's a small chance of a defect in anything you buy now. Seems the more you pay, the slighter the chance, but that doesn't seem to make a difference to the person who gets the one lemon that company put out that month! Get the one that suits your purpose best, and has the best customer service reputation.

[Corey Hallagan]

Mark, glad they fixed you up. Bernie W. used a little Delta and had wonderful results with it. Hope it works out for you.

Corey

[Curt Fuller]

People are somehow unable to "see" their own mistakes. That's why there was a quality control department in the first place! There are several books by and about this guy, and he's well respected and his metods are used worldwide now.

You're absolutely rite! :rolleyes: :D :p


Gary, if you want to come over and smack me upside the head, I deserve it.

[Gary DeWitt]

Where do you live? Guido will be right over.:D

[Mark Pruitt]

Where do you live? Guido will be right over.:D
Uh...I think you meant "rite over.":p

[Glenn Hodges]

I hear this more and more today, lousy product and the company gives you the "I could care less," when you return it. This puts a bad taste in the mouth of American consumers which is not easily removed. It is not only the tool or machine responsible, but the company you buy it from. I do not blame you one bit for looking elsewhere when you look to purchase a bandsaw. This is one reason I value this forum, we pass along positive and negative experiences with tools and machines to help our net buddies when they make purchases. I bet a lot of companies with poor customer service really hate the internet, and especially forums like the SMC. Thank you and others for the input about this and other equipment, and I hope you all will continue with this valuable information.

[Jim DeLaney]

...There was a guy named Demming who researched production techniques and "discovered" that quality control was too expensive and time consuming, and promoted "quality assurance", whereby each and every person involved was responsible for thier own quality control....

Actually, the name was W. Edwards Deming, with one 'n'. He was largely responsible for the industrial recovery of Japan after WWII.

Quite a well known figure in industrial/Quality Control circles. Sadly, he passed away about twelve years ago. See http://www.lii.net/deming.html

[Mark Pruitt]

I hear this more and more today, lousy product and the company gives you the "I could care less," when you return it. This puts a bad taste in the mouth of American consumers which is not easily removed. It is not only the tool or machine responsible, but the company you buy it from. I do not blame you one bit for looking elsewhere when you look to purchase a bandsaw. This is one reason I value this forum, we pass along positive and negative experiences with tools and machines to help our net buddies when they make purchases. I bet a lot of companies with poor customer service really hate the internet, and especially forums like the SMC. Thank you and others for the input about this and other equipment, and I hope you all will continue with this valuable information.
Glenn, I think you're 100% correct.

But after reading your response, I did want to point out again that my one and only beef is with Rikon Quality Control, not with Woodcraft. The people at the Woodcraft store handled all problems I had with the utmost courtesy and with a "can-do" attitude, and I have nothing but good to say of them for the way they handled things. They are good people and I am very concerned that people reading this thread understand that. As I said earlier, I plan on being their customer for a long time.

[Martin Braun]

Not to rain on your parade, but to make you aware (in case you aren't already); Delta Midi's have had some trouble with bad bearings in some runs, and also if you got the older production runs, they had plastic handles instead of metal for securing the motor & for the tool rest post bolt.

With that said, I have an older one, and even though I should call & get the plastic replaced, I have never had any problems with my Delta Midi. The plastic has not broke. The bearings are still nice & tight. I have been turning on it for 2 years now, and even though I have a PM, I still enjoy using it for small stuff that I don't feel like wrestling with a huge tool rest or tailstock to turn. I plan on keeping it, because it's great for teaching on (small intimidation factor) and nice for portability as well.

[Bill Boehme]

Metal is not necessarily better than plastic if things are made right. I bought a Jet Mini about a year ago and the locking levers are made of metal (probably cast aluminum or just pot metal). One of the locking levers stripped out about 4 months ago so I just went to Rockler and bought an off-the-shelf plastic lever. Comparing the innards of the old metal lever and the new plastic one, I would say that the plastic one is likely to survive longer. Neither version is what I would call really heavy duty and if I got really ham fisted about torqueing them down, neither would be able to survive for very long. The amount of torque necessary to secure the tool rest height and the belt tension is not very great and most of us probably overtighten them.

Bill

[Keith Outten]

Bill,

I own a Jet Mini and I love the machine. There is a design issue in my opinion that could definately be improved upon by Jet that concerns the locking nuts on the tailstock and banjo. Jet uses a round washer that is threaded and will not take a lot of torque. I started making replacements by machining 1/2" thick flat bar and sold a bunch of them awhile back. Search our archives and you will find a thread with the details and a rough sketch of my replacement block if you would like to make one or two. I provided the dimentions and thread sizes in my post, you will find lots of comments concerning my fix for the Jet Mini. Increasing the contact area allows the tailstock to be locked with a light touch and there is no creep to worry about.

.

[Martin Braun]

I agree with you on that. I think it's less wear & tear on the tool rest post as well. Folks probably whack it with the butt of their tool or something trying to tighten it. Thanks for letting us know they also have replacements at Rockler.

[Bill Boehme]

.......There is a design issue in my opinion that could definately be improved upon by Jet that concerns the locking nuts on the tailstock and banjo. Jet uses a round washer that is threaded and will not take a lot of torque. I started making replacements by machining 1/2" thick flat bar and sold a bunch of them awhile back. Search our archives and you will find a thread with the details and a rough sketch of my replacement block if you would like to make one or two. I provided the dimentions and thread sizes in my post, you will find lots of comments concerning my fix for the Jet Mini. Increasing the contact area allows the tailstock to be locked with a light touch and there is no creep to worry about.

Keith,

I did some searching and found the posts that you are referring to. One thing that surprised me is that nobody apparently knew that these things are called "T-slot nuts" and are very commonly used in metal machining on lathes, milling machines, and drilling machines. The only problem is that something to fit the Jet mini lathe may be an oddball size that is not available. However, as Andy London pointed out, there are T-slot nuts available from Lee Valley (even if they don't know the right name for the part) that can be modified for the job. It seems like a pretty simple solution to insert a piece of all thread, stake it, and then tap it to the desired size (sort of a do-it-yourself helicoil). By the way, if anybody is wondering, T-slot nuts ARE hardened and they would be the dickens to work without annealing them first.

Bill

[Mark Pruitt]

Mark - Another approach to contemplate is what John M has done. He's got a chevyvegathingamabob ..... Of course, John never actually turns his machines on .....
Oh, I'm not so sure about that....:D :D :D
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[John Miliunas]

Oh, I'm not so sure about that....:D :D :D
51173

LOL!!! :D Thanks, Mark! Man, does that bring back some rather recent memories! :) :cool:

BTW, Mark, hope you enjoy that Delta more than the Rikon. Like someone else mentioned, you've had enough issues with it to cover several machines. Our experience (at the store) with them has been quite positive, but hey, even BMW produces a lemon every now and again. :o Have phun with the new lathe! :) :cool: