Before I buy the SawStop???

[Ted Baca]

I have all but decided on the Sawstop. The dealer actually tried to talk me into the PM2000 last night, saying that the SawStop was way overkill for a home shop. I think it is well designed saw aside from the brake mechanism. I agree with him that PM2000 would be a lifetime tool to be enjoyed and offer years of trouble free woodcutting. But I like the SawStop for first the obvious reason. But also the design of the table top for adjustment and I really do like that the hand wheel for the blade tilt is outboard. I have some concern for the life expectancy of the electronics in a dust and vibration envirment. SawStop assures me it hasn't been an issue in 2 years. I would like to hear from all the Home Shop SawStop owners on your experiences. Do you look back and say I could have saved some money and bought another saw? I don't like the time it takes for the initial start up? What ever you tell me would be helpfull. I had another thread when I was trying decide between three models but I really want to hone in on this purchase, a no regrets decision.

[Dan Drager]

Clearly the PM2000 is a fine Product that will last a lifetime. But you chose the Sawstop for a REASON. Beware the salesman who tries to stear you away from the product you wanted in the first place.

[Mike Henderson]

Manufacturers often offer sales bonuses that go to the actual sales person (not to the store) for the sale of certain items - when you get a hard push like you described, I'd suspect that the salesperson is being compensated for the sale of the item being pushed. Take his advice with a big grain of salt.

I agree with Dan - you prefer the SawStop for a good reason. If you buy the PM you'll never have the SS safety feature and never be able to add it - short of buying a new saw.

Mike

[Roy Wall]

Ted -

I think I picked a great time to get back into hobbyist (yet serious) woodworking. It was 18 months ago and I got a Sawstop. It was a little work to get it set up....but I am very pleased with the saw.

Waiting for the codes to check out does not bother me...it gets me concentrating on the cut to be made.

I bought it primarily for the safety feature. Secondly, it was a well built machine with improved DC. What I didn't realize was the importance of the riving knife....it is a great feature! I imagine the PM2000 will give you the same level of precision the Sawstop can deliver....a good, accurate table saw is...well, a good accurate table saw. And I suppose there are 5-10 good cabinet saws that fit these criteria of accuracy, durability, and machining.

So you just have to ask yourself if you want to spend the additional $1500 for the "blade stop". I believe the electrical components are reliable - just like the power going to the machine.

Since I DID NOT have a table saw, this was a 'first purchase" - plus my wife loved the look of it and thought the brake feature was amazing. She encouraged me to get the machine.

It hurt the wallet.....but the pleasure of using the saw over time diminishes an upset stomach!

Best of luck!

[Steve Canada]

The question about the Electronics is warranted. IF the electronics EVER fail, sawstop is looking at a very serious lawsuit.

I would assume the electronic components must perform for the life of the machine and must hold lifetime warrantee or a recommended replacement schedule if they don't last forever.

Can anyone confirm?

[Sam Blanchard]

Ted:
I bought my 31230 SawStop and never looked back.
The fit and finish is awesome. The main table on my unit arrived DEAD flat, measured with my Starrett 380-24 straight edge.
Waiting for the electronics has never been an issue. I don't hardly notice it now and agree that it is a great time to concentrate on the upcoming cut.
It's just a damn fine saw and you won't regret owning it. The pleasure of using such a fine tool lasts far longer than the concern over price.
Good luck with your decision, whichever way you go.;)

[Walt Caza]

Hi Ted,
Having spent this summer shopping cabinet saws, I know how this decision
can be trying. I am thrilled with the SawStop cabinet saw, even if it did
not have the brake system. I went with the 50" SS rip fence as well.
The 3hp single phase runs so quiet, I can speak over it, while standing at it. Comparing actual cuts with my previous contractor saw is quite revealing. The new cuts are so smooth, I wonder how I ever got by 23yrs
with my old saw. The riving knife is unobtrusive, and a great help.
It is a joy to spin the wheels for height and bevel adjustment.

Start-up is just a few moments per session. I don't mind watching the lights settle on green for ready. It confirms I have everything set-up
properly, and that the system is active. Subsequent starts are quick with
the red paddle switch, which offers handy bump off with your knee.

I timed a regular blade to dado stack swap this week. If I have things
handy, and do not need to search for them, I can swap to dado in about
8 min. I can swap back to regular blade, brake cartridge and table insert
in about 7ish min. I have improved alot over my earlier fumbling and
hesitation. (these times incl gap adj and saw running again)

In fairness, minor downsides would be that the Bies style fence must
be adj parallel to miter slots and blade while removed from the rail.
I know all Bies type rip fences do this, but my old Unifence adjusted
while mounted to the rail, so you can moniter as you go.
The big cast iron top seems particularly scratch-prone, perhaps
available metal and casting are not what they once were ...

In the event of a brake trigger, the tighter the blade to brake gap, the
quicker the stop. May mean the difference between a band-aid and
stitches, so it is important. I do not feel confident yet, to make this
critical adjustment from up top through the table insert. Instead, I
shine a light in the right side cabinet,(has interlock) and check the gap
from a side view, rather than a top view.
Caution: you may want to move the rip fence aside before ducking under
the extension table ... DAMHIKT !

Another quibble is the table insert retaining screw is shared between
the regular insert, and the walnut dado insert. These 4MM screws
with allen key head are proving hard to locate, as I would like back-up.
(don't ask me how I know this either!)

The blade and arbour have a dust collection shroud which is great for
sawdust pickup, but also hungry for the arbour nut.(ya, DAMHIKT)

Overall, this saw is amazing! It offers a dizzying array of adjustment
options, and is built like a brick outhouse. As the cornerstone of my little
shop, it is super functional and a joy to own.

Please allow me to offer you fair warning. The mere mention of Sawstop
invokes heated passions for many reasons. The key is to learn to
brace yourself after mentioning it in any online forums!

Best luck with your major shop purchase,
Walt

ps when I power up this fine machine, I realize that the inventor has
given us pure genius, and has earned his rewards ...
(braces himself for verbal onslaught)
:)

[Ted Baca]

Steve Actually the sawsop comes with a 2 year warrnaty on everything but the motor which is 5 year. This is a cause for concern. They say that
they will work with you after warranty period in a case by case manner. But and I mean BUT, what if they change their attitude, ownership or simply go out of business. I beleive that in the next five years all major manufactures Jet, PM, Genrela, Delta etc will come out with a similar braking device for tablesaws and that may cause Sawstop to lose it's hold in the marketplace. I realize I am asking for the "crystal ball" answer here but I haven't ever been a gambler. And the 1550 difference can buy a planer and a jointer or save it on one emergency room visit.

[Dan Clark]

First, as others have mentioned, salesmen are motivated by money. Indirect or direct, ALWAYS remember that some of the advice comes from their interest in making the most money. For example, the PM2000 may provide the dealer with a better margin (profit), or they may have a dealer or sales rep spiff to promote a specific brand.

Second, regarding "...way overkill for a home shop", I think that's complete xxxxxxxxx! IMO, safety is important anywhere. It is not limited to a production environment. I think it is reprehensible for the salesman to tell you that.

I believe everyone should choose what they are comfortable with. If someone doesn't believe in the SawStop safety feature, that's fine; it's their money. But it sounds like SawStop safety is important to you. Go with your gut feeling.

Dan.

[Mark Singer]

If you got the PM 2000 and had an accident......you will always and forever know you made the wrong decision....don't take a chance! I consider myself experienced on a cabinet saw....nothing ever seems to happen that surprises me...still I bought the SawStop and yes I had a Pm 66 before...which is a great saw....except for one feature. Even besides safety the SS is a`better machine.

[lou sansone]

I think the SS blade brake idea is pretty good. The issue of SS going out of business is a valid concern. You could get left hi and dry. I have taught ww in my home shop, and if I were to continue to do that I probably invest in the SS for the liability issues ( teaching high school students can be nerve wracking and having that safety feature would help with the stomach acid ). For me personally, I have never had an accident with a TS, except for one kick back that the SS main selling point would not have helped. It's riving knife would have helped and I think in many ways the riving knife does its job many times more than the SS blade brake does ( how many of the SS owners here have actually had the brake employed because you were going to cut your fingers?). By that I mean, the riving knife is really making the cut safer a good portion of the time you are actually sawing, as opposed to the very infrequent times one might be sawing their hands off.

Having said all that, for me personally, since at this time I am not teaching in my own shop, a full featured European sliding table saw would be better choice for me. You might think about the sliding table saws, if you are willing to spend a fair amount of $$ and have the space for one. They are not for everyone, but I would give them some consideration.

best wishes in your new purchase

Lou

[Tom Ruflin]

I'm a hobbiest and love my SawStop. I had a Delta contractor saw before it so I do not have experience using other cabinet saws. I did investigate some of the other saws and at the time SS was the only one within my budget that had a riving knife. The PM2000 was not on the market yet. If I absolutely, positively, without a doubt could not afford the SawStop then I would go for the PM2000 as it has a true riving knife. I have 2 friends that have had table saw accidents, one lost a finger and another almost lost 2 fingers. I would not take any chances.

[Matt Moore]

It's riving knife would have helped and I think in many ways the riving knife does its job many times more than the SS blade brake does ( how many of the SS owners here have actually had the brake employed because you were going to cut your fingers?). By that I mean, the riving knife is really making the cut safer a good portion of the time you are actually sawing, as opposed to the very infrequent times one might be sawing their hands off.
Lou

You are right that the riving knife will reduce the injuries most of the time but that is not the point. The point is to make the safest saw possible and if the worst case scenario occurs then reduce the injury to a scratch rather than lost fingers or a mangled hand.

Similar to saying: I don't think I need an airbag since most of the time the seatbelt by itself (if worn) (the riving knife is removable) will save my life or reduce my injuries 100% of the time. We know that is not true.

It is obvious that SS did not set out just to build a saw with only its safety technology. They set out to use all the safety features found in saws today and add their technology as well. It is by far the safest cabinet saw on the market. If you do some searching, it is well known that kickback can cause your hand to move into the saw blade. Will the riving knife reduce the chance of this occuring. Absolutely, but will it stop it 100% of the time, no. So in that case the brake does its job. This is just the same in a car. The airbag is a complement to the seat belt. One without the other is less safe no matter how you look at it.

Take a look at the testimonials on SS's website. Proof that with or without the riving knife the worst case scenario does occur and the SS kept the injury from being serious. Just a bandaid is needed in most cases. http://www.sawstop.com/why-sawstop-testimonials.htm

[Matt Moore]

Steve Actually the sawsop comes with a 2 year warrnaty on everything but the motor which is 5 year. This is a cause for concern. They say that
they will work with you after warranty period in a case by case manner. But and I mean BUT, what if they change their attitude, ownership or simply go out of business. I beleive that in the next five years all major manufactures Jet, PM, Genrela, Delta etc will come out with a similar braking device for tablesaws and that may cause Sawstop to lose it's hold in the marketplace. I realize I am asking for the "crystal ball" answer here but I haven't ever been a gambler. And the 1550 difference can buy a planer and a jointer or save it on one emergency room visit.

Why is the warranty a cause for concern. 2 years is the same as Delta. Powermatic is 1 year.

The savings can't buy your finger back. You are looking for a panacia in regard to the company. We can find good and bad with every company.

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

IF the electronics EVER fail, [...]

I would assume the electronic components must perform for the life of the machine and must hold lifetime warrantee or a recommended replacement schedule if they don't last forever. Can anyone confirm?

The only thing I can confirm is that nothing lasts forever.

[CPeter James]

Doe SS offer extended warrantys like the computer peopld and other electroncs manufacturers do? This might be something to think about.

I might have bought a SS except for one thing, it took about 5 year for them to get a product to market and I jumped before then. Still might down the road.

Most important, think about what Mark Singer said. What is the price of safety?

CPeter

[Ted Baca]

Hey Guys thank you please keep 'em coming. Great feedback and I am feeling better all the time hear. (watch for my new thread trying collect the dough) just kidding. One note on the warranty PM carries a 5 year not 1. I am glad to hear so far that no one is had any remorse on the SS purchase. Looking forward to more feedback here. Thanks

[John Gornall]

I'm comfortable with my tablesaw. I've moved through 3 tablesaws over about 35 years and before I had my own saw I worked in a shop where I received good training on using a saw safely. I have not had a saw accident but I realize that I could.

I've also had a number of chop saws over the years and recently got a sliding compound miter saw. I'm far more uncomfortable using this saw than my tablesaw. It bevels left and right, it miters left and right, it does both at the same time and the blade travels over 12 inches. I find I have to stop before each cut and give it all a good think. Where does the blade start, endup, where could the workpiece move to, and the cutoff, and where should my hands go? Sometimes I do the cut on the tablesaw where I'm more comfortable.

We hear there are a lot of saw accidents - I wonder what the percentage of these accidents are on saws other than tablesaws.

I also wonder when Sawstop technology will come to other saws.

[Mark Singer]

I will say it again....if you get the other model and have an accident ...you will say "Shoulda"...everytime you shake hands with someone

[Matt Moore]

I will say it again....if you get the other model and have an accident ...you will say "Shoulda"...everytime you shake hands with someone

I 2nd that.

[lou sansone]

You are right that the riving knife will reduce the injuries most of the time but that is not the point. The point is to make the safest saw possible and if the worst case scenario occurs then reduce the injury to a scratch rather than lost fingers or a mangled hand.

Similar to saying: I don't think I need an airbag since most of the time the seatbelt by itself (if worn) (the riving knife is removable) will save my life or reduce my injuries 100% of the time. We know that is not true.

It is obvious that SS did not set out just to build a saw with only its safety technology. They set out to use all the safety features found in saws today and add their technology as well. It is by far the safest cabinet saw on the market. If you do some searching, it is well known that kickback can cause your hand to move into the saw blade. Will the riving knife reduce the chance of this occuring. Absolutely, but will it stop it 100% of the time, no. So in that case the brake does its job. This is just the same in a car. The airbag is a complement to the seat belt. One without the other is less safe no matter how you look at it.

Take a look at the testimonials on SS's website. Proof that with or without the riving knife the worst case scenario does occur and the SS kept the injury from being serious. Just a bandaid is needed in most cases. http://www.sawstop.com/why-sawstop-testimonials.htm


I would agree that the SS is the safest cabinet saw on the market. There is a balance between safety and function. If I were buying a cabinet saw or, as I said, if I were continuing to teach in my shop, I would probably buy a SS. There is much to be said for the European sliding table saws, both in regards to safety and function that I believe should also be considered when evaluating a "saw". I would say that some combination of a SS blade brake and the European sliding table saw technology, would constitute the "safest" saw on the market.

Lou

[Ian Gillis]

Hi

I'm not interested in entering the SawStop debate, but I was motivated to go to their website and read some warranty information.

Tag end of warranty statement:


SawStop disclaims any and all other express or implied warranties, including merchantability and fitness for a
particular purpose. SawStop shall not be liable for death, injuries to persons or property, or incidental, consequential,
contingent or special damages arising from the use of the saw.

I doubt if Volvo guarantees that you can't be injured in one of their cars, either.

From the maintainence section at the back:

Maintenance


1. SawStop Safety System:
The safety system in general requires little maintenance. The system performs continuous self-checks both
before and during saw operation. If a problem is detected, the appropriate status code will be displayed on the
LEDs on the switch box.

Brake Cartridge:
Although the brake cartridge requires no maintenance, the condition of the cartridge should be checked
after approximately every 10 hours of saw use. The cartridge is sealed to prevent the entry of dust or other
contaminants into the housing. While a small amount of dust within the housing will not effect its operation, you
should replace the cartridge if a significant amount of dust is visible inside the clear plastic housing. This would
indicate that the cartridge housing seal has been damaged.


WARNING! Never use a brake cartridge if more than a small amount of dust can be seen
inside the clear housing. If sawdust becomes packed inside the housing, the brake make fail
to activate or may activate more slowly, thereby resulting in a serious personal injury.

Again, nothing shocking here, IMO. To use the car analogy again, don't expect your brakes to work after 10 yrs if you've never maintained them.

Cheers
IG

[Jim Murphy]

My SawStop has been in the house about two weeks now. It is a fine machine. Unless you are taking milk from the baby to pay for it, you won't regret getting one, in my opinion.

As far as safety is concerned, I don't think of safety as a "black or white" situation, that is, something is safe or unsafe -- one or the other. I think of it more like a continuum with degrees of safety. Some things are totally unsafe. And some things are totally safe -- the safest thing is to never turn on a power tool (or, I guess, handle a sharp hand tool). But everything else is somewhere in between. In my opinion, SawStop greatly enhances safety with the riving knife, and the brake technology. You have greatly increased your odds of remaining safe while using a table saw. Is this increase of safety (not a guarantee of never any injury) worth the price? Well, that is up to everyone to decide for themselves.

[Kent Cartwright]

I, too, have that thought in the back of my head questioning the long-term ability of Sawstop to remain in the market. They are going up against an entrenched lineup of reputable companies, which is a tough way to enter an established market. I assume they are succeeding at the moment due to their competitive advantage. However, that competitive advantage will eventually be eroded away as the competition adjusts, or they are bought out by the competition. (Holy cow, all that edumacation actually applied to a woodworking thread!! Go figure).

With that being said, I would buy the Sawstop today if I had the funds. My logic goes like this:

Buy the saw and enjoy the saftey benefits as long as the saw remains functional, even if the parent company goes away;

Buy a couple of extra cartridges "just in case";

Remember that even if someday I can't buy replacement cartridges and the electronics goes haywire, the basic machine is still competitive with other similiar brand saws even without the saftey mechanisms. I will still have benefited for MANY years from the electronic saftey features, assuming there is no way to retrofit to a new or upgraded system.

Now this is a worst case scenario, and I am not anticipating nor wishing bad things for Sawstop. This is just the process I have gone through in deciding to put off buying a couple of other nice tools in order to replace my current tablesaw with a Sawstop saw as soon as possible.

Good luck in your decision! One thing I think is pretty certain, is that the next five years will likely be VERY interesting in the tool business as the competition heats up. I think us woodworkers are going to benefit greatly due to Sawstop's decision to enter the market, because other companies are going to either innovate, lower price, or face losing market share. I think this means bigger, nicer, shinier woodworking toys at good prices!

Kent

[David Giles]

After two years, no regrets at all. And I'm prone to second guessing my tool decisions. The saw operates in a high humidity, dusty environment without any problems. Very well made, flat tables, no wobble from the arbor. I'm ambivalent about the brake cartridge because I don't ever plan to touch the blade, but the riving knife is a great safety feature.

If SS ever goes out of business and their cartridge supplier doesn't offer aftermarket cartridges, I'll just rewire the motor to the switch bypassing the electronics. How hard can it be?

The SS isn't for everybody, but if you've decided that it works for your situation, you won't regret it in two years. Unless you decide to trade it in on a Minimax slider!

As a side note, I'd avoid additional cartridges. I think SS makes continuous improvements in the electronics and Fedex is a wonderful way of getting a new one tomorrow. But a couple of spare ZCI are worthwhile.

[Rick Schubert]

Ted and everyone,

I wonder if you had a PM2000 with the riving knife and had an overhead blade guard/DC that you ALWAYS used, would you basically eliminate kickback and also the chance of ever touching the blade? At least to the point of saving the $1500 which you then could spend on a better, safer jointer or some other safer piece of equipment that combined with your PM2000 would make your overall shop safer than just buying the Sawstop.

Regarding the salesmen, I agree with all the other posts on his motives that money might be driving his comments. But he might truly believe that the PM2000 is a better value. In fact, he might even make a greater commission on the Sawstop since it is a more expensive machine.

BTW, I have no connection to Powermatic and in fact do not own any of their machines.

I also like the previous suggestion to go with what your gut is telling you. Good luck!

Rick

[Matt Moore]

Ted and everyone,

I wonder if you had a PM2000 with the riving knife and had an overhead blade guard/DC that you ALWAYS used, would you basically eliminate kickback and also the chance of ever touching the blade? At least to the point of saving the $1500 which you then could spend on a better, safer jointer or some other safer piece of equipment that combined with your PM2000 would make your overall shop safer than just buying the Sawstop.
Rick

Well the issue I have with this is there are scenarios where both the riving knife and the blade guard may not be used.

I liked the analogy of safetey being on a continum. With each safety device (guard, riving knife, sawstop, feather board, etc) the tool gets a little safer. The SawStop takes safety to the highest level possible for a cabinet saw. If the money is available, I just don't understand why our digits are worth so little in the grand scheme of things.

That $1500 difference will be blown in a heartbeat on all kinds of stuff. Why not blow it on safety. We are willing to spend thousands to keep our floor clean of dust and keep fine dust out of our lungs but forget the fact that if we touch the blade we may not have any fingers left so we scimp and save.

It is no different than being in the market for a car, looking at one car with an airbag and another without.. .other than that, they are virtually the same car. You have the money for either one but the one with an airbag is $1500 more. You think to yourself. The chances of me ever getting into a car wreck are slim to none and I don't think it helps in every case anyway, so I will save the $.

That is fine and good, until we become a statistic.

[Jason White]

I have not used the cabinet saw, but have played around with the "prototype" contractor's saw (which is not yet in full production).

The "electronics" are contained in a sealed brake mechanism, which gets replaced whenever the blade brake fires. The brake cartridge plugs in much like a monitor plugs into a computer using a "serial" port. The serial port is the only part of the electronics that is exposed. All of the microprocessors, etc. are contained in the sealed cartridge. Also, the saw performs self-checks of the electronics each time it's started up. I fired the brake several times, and it's performance was flawless (and cool asxxxxxxx!!).l

As for the contractor's saw itself, it's a decent saw as long as you opt for the "optional" cast-iron wings and T-square fence. The stamped steel wings and cheaper fence aren't the best in my book.

JW

[Charles McKinley]

Unless something has changed you can turn off the brake on the saw stop so the point about maybe taking the gaurds off the other saws and not always there is a wash.

This may have changed but there was talk of this in the earlier threads for when cutting wet or green lumber.

When the time comes to replace the PM66 I see a MM410 combo machine in its place. No need for the fingers to be near the blade. With a power feeder attached any of the blades.

If you want and can afford the SS go for it. I'm recovering from minor hand surgery and I can tell you it really blows. Just as an experiment try brushing your teeth or wiping you back side with your non-dominate hand. :(

[Mike Heidrick]

Buy the tool you want the first time. Be thankful for any features you value that you can afford. Only you decide where your $ goes for each feature - at least for now.

[Jason Simon]

Well, I've had mine about 5 months, and I absolutely couldn't be happier.

It has held up well in my home hobby shop,and I just blow the dust off the cartridge when I change it out with the dado one...

No big issues so far.

I'd go for it if you can afford it,

[Ted Baca]

Well gentlemen, I have gone for it. I placed my order friday. I have a two week wait but am getting things ready in the shop so the two weeks is welcome. I have gleened some good information and advice for all the responding posts. I thank you one and all. I have read three magazine articles, all with favorable review. Looked at other forums, and found some great videos in the Wood magzine website. The only real negative that seemed to be constant in the forums was political. And the politics in a woodshop is "return to the enviroment you borrow from". I figured out when I went back and talked with the manager is that he was pushing the Powermatic because he thought I was a "discount motivated buyer". I was disapointed when I couldn't strike a deal on the SS but I was not leaving without putting my name on one. The discount would be a short term victory and I believe, and with all your help, that the long term rewards will overshadow any discount. I did order 2 extra ZCI's and 1 each of the blade brakes. I am gonna wait for the SS mobile base, hopefully bribe some freinds to help me get it on there when it is finally released for sale.
So again thank you.:D

[Jeff Fritzson]

If I had the initial funding there is no question I would buy a SawStop. However, there are some valid concerns that I do think have come up but that still would not deter me from buying the saw.

1. The warranty on the electronics is two years. I understand that a manufacturer has some limitations but iright now the biggest difference between the SS and any other saw on the market are the electronics and the braking cartridge. If in two years and a day either one of those fail, then there is s repair required and I would want to know approximate pricing to replace. This is one additinal area that can fail that other saws do not have.

2. The company has not been around very long so if it did go out of business and number one above happened (even before the 2 year warranty was up) you would have in essence a great version and some people say better version of a PM 2000.

Even with those two concerns, I would buy it if I could. I have a Unisaw that cost me a third of a SS and could justify the costs as an upgrade to a contractor saw as I was able to sell that for a good price.

If you can afford it, I would buy it. Just my thoughts.

Jeff

[Jason White]

My apologies for my potty mouth. Apparently it's not tolerated here (even though I meant it in a good way).

JW

[Dave Fifield]

"As cool as....a Sawstop!!" :D