Advertiser Free Sawmill Creek - Vote Now!!

[John Bailey]

In case you've missed it, there's a vote going on at the Creek. If you would like to keep Sawmill Creek as an advertiser free forum, you should make a 2007 Contribution. We've suggested $6. Most contributors have contributed more. I would like to see the Creek remain advertiser free. If you feel the same way, consider making a contribution. I've always sent $6 for myself and another $18 for others who cannot contribute right now. That's $2 a month - well worth every penny for the infomation I get here. There'll be a decision made the beginning of December. So, there's not a lot of time, just 9 days.

If you would like to see the Creek stay advertiser free, consider making a 2007 Contribution now.

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You can donate by PayPal by emailing your donation to;

sales@northwindassociates.com

Or you can send a check via snailmail to the following address;

Make checks payable to SawmillCreek Woodworkers Forums!

SawMill Creek Woodworkers Forums
c/o Northwind Associates
8770 Little England Rd.
Hayes Va 23072

Thanks for supporting The Creek!!
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Thanks,

John
__________________

[Frank Fusco]

I believe accepting advertising would be a benfit to the forum and it's members.

[Tom Henry]

If you use that "dead space" next to the logo and do it tastefully, I think it would give the funds needed to open up the doors for a better SMC. But I know there are some out there who are against the banner. 20k would be enough for a ton of "band width"..

[Kurt Rosenzweig]

A banner type ad wouldn't bother me either. To be honest I hardly even notice them anymore. Theres another forum that is actually putting the ads in the body of the discussion board just like another thread. Now thats bothers me. Tacky as can be. It's all about money I guess.

[Bill Lewis]

Make this a sticky, so it'll remind me to make my donation later.
I'm at work, and I don't do personal financial transactions at work.

I personally would like to see SMC stay advertiser free. It could be ok, but we won't know until that pandora's box is opened. Also, it is very hard to go back once you go there.

[Tom Henry]

What if instead of a banner or something along those lines you just had a sponsors link that you could go to that would direct you to there site. That would be harmless and would bring in some cash!

[John Bailey]

Bill,

Thanks for your response. The fund drive is a stickey now, but often a lot of folks don't see it. This is often the case for those of us that use the "New Posts" feature, when there hasn't been any action on the stickey. It was getting a bit slow, so I decided to provide a reminder. I'll try to remember to remind you tonight. In the meantime, you're going on the count.

Thanks,

John

[Reg Mitchell]

I for one would rather see it free of ads. I get enough spam in my mail without comeing to my leasure place and seeing more. There is enough ppl in here that can be far greater help to another member and give a hands on about a tool without all the hype. To me this room is for woodworkers talking to woodworkers and should remain that way.
Reg

[Keith Outten]

I for one would rather see it free of ads. I get enough spam in my mail without comeing to my leasure place and seeing more. There is enough ppl in here that can be far greater help to another member and give a hands on about a tool without all the hype. To me this room is for woodworkers talking to woodworkers and should remain that way.
Reg

Thanks Reg,

I couldn't have said it any better myself.

.

[John Shuk]

No ads is better for me.

[Kirk (KC) Constable]

If there was advertising, would we stop seeing posts reminding everyone about contributing? And would the member/contributor labels go away?

[Stu Ablett in Tokyo Japan]

I fear this will be an unpopular post, but it is an honest one, and one that does not in anyway violate the TOS.

I do not fear the actual little pics that are adverts, what I worry about is the strings attached to theses adverts.

I'm not saying this will happen at SMC, I'm saying it can happen.

How many times have you opened a WW magazine to see a breathless review of some new tool and then find a half dozen full page color adverts in the same magazine made by the same maker who's tool has the breathless review?

I could be wrong, but I think that Fine Woodworking is add free, is it not? I think this is one reason it is held in fairly high regard.

I worry that this is also true for SMC, one of the reasons that the community here has had such a good reputation is in part that it is advert free.

The one thing that never changes is that all things change.

I'll watch with my fingers crossed.

Cheers!

[Joe Mioux]

I could be wrong, but I think that Fine Woodworking is add free, is it not? I think this is one reason it is held in fairly high regard.



You are wrong. FWW magazine does have ads. There is one out there ad free though.

Now for my take on advertising.

Adverstising is not a bad thing. How else do we find out about new products. Magazine reviews of a new product may not be timely. Ads can be informative and not necessarily trying to sublimillay force a person into buying something that isn't needed.

Magazines ads are fine. A potential WW banners or popups on SMC would be annoying. The difference is you can turn to the next page in a magazine, but on the internet they will remain at the top or bottom or side of the screen. Ads on SMC will take up too much space on the screen.

Just Say No.....

Joe

[Stu Ablett in Tokyo Japan]

You are wrong. FWW magazine does have ads. There is one out there ad free though.

Joe

OK, I stand corrected, what is magazine without adverts, Shop Notes...?

I know I've seen it before.......:confused:

[Joe Mioux]

OK, I stand corrected, what is magazine without adverts, Shop Notes...?

I know I've seen it before.......:confused:

Hi Stu: I think you are correct with Shop Notes

Joe

[Tim Morton]

I have seen some sites that do accept ads, then turn around and offer the members an option to block the ads by paying a fee. That seems to be something that would be fair. I owuld just make it mandatory that any members with an affiliation with a sponser, show that in there avatar and signature in order to avoid any confusion.

I also agree with others who would prefer to do away with the "fund raising efforts" and the "contributor lables"

I don't see a problem with using the area next to "Sawmill Creek" I guess the question should also be asked...do we want to limit it to just WW ads, or do we want to have pop-ups of john cougar singing the prasies of chevrolet.:D

[Kirk (KC) Constable]

You are wrong. FWW magazine does have ads. There is one out there ad free though.

Now for my take on advertising.

Adverstising is not a bad thing. How else do we find out about new products. Magazine reviews of a new product may not be timely. Ads can be informative and not necessarily trying to sublimillay force a person into buying something that isn't needed.

Magazines ads are fine. A potential WW banners or popups on SMC would be annoying. The difference is you can turn to the next page in a magazine, but on the internet they will remain at the top or bottom or side of the screen. Ads on SMC will take up too much space on the screen.

Just Say No.....

Joe

Ads won't take up any more space than the fundraising stickies do... and for the life of me, I just can't understand Stu's concern about ads affecting the 'community'.

The WOOD site is loaded with promotional stuff, and Wood Central has ads that havn't seemed to cause any problems.

KC

[Larry Fox]

My vote is for ads-free.. I agree with Reg that we get enough ads everywhere else in our lives. One of the main reasons that I made the switch to satellite radio and never looked back.

[Reg Mitchell]

[quote=Tim Morton]I have seen some sites that do accept ads, then turn around and offer the members an option to block the ads by paying a fee. That seems to be something that would be fair. quote]
Then again we are putting a burden on those less fortunate to have to put up with the ads and could see a deminish in the population of SMC. One of those might just be the one that might have a unique way of handeling a problem. I would rather add a few dollars when I contribuite for someone less fortunate than myself to insure that that person is around when I might need his/her problem solveing sloution. Besides SMC isn't a money makeing venture its just a place for good friends to help each other :)
Reg

[Tom Henry]

What is everyone afraid of, that ads are going to take over SMC? I think that one ad at the top of the page that isn't going to take up space that already isn't being used won't hurt anything. Now I contri. to the 2007 year and did my part to keep it ad free but I don't see the harm of one ad that would take the burden off the money situation. This is a great site and I would not have been pushed away from the site if there was a ad at the top of the page.

[glenn bradley]

I'm for add-free. The magazines I enjoy most are pure info and no filler. Just like cable TV used to be, a premium is paid to get 100% good stuff. I can do my own research if I want to know what's out there. I don't need it invading me while I'm doing something else. I'm good for $25 a year and consider it a fantastic bargain. A couple bucks a month for all I get out of this site; chump change!

[Tim Morton]

[quote=Tim Morton]I have seen some sites that do accept ads, then turn around and offer the members an option to block the ads by paying a fee. That seems to be something that would be fair. quote]
Then again we are putting a burden on those less fortunate to have to put up with the ads and could see a deminish in the population of SMC. One of those might just be the one that might have a unique way of handeling a problem. I would rather add a few dollars when I contribuite for someone less fortunate than myself to insure that that person is around when I might need his/her problem solveing sloution. Besides SMC isn't a money makeing venture its just a place for good friends to help each other :)
Reg

Burden? Strickly speaking for those who cannot afford to contribute i personally feel that "ads" are less burdensome than the stickies here asking for money. IMO thosze stickies have the feel of the people who camp out in front of the local Wal-Mart asking for money as I walk in. I can certainly afford (and have) to donate for myself and lots of people here...I just don't like the constant capital campaing mentality that has arisen in this forum the past 2 years....I was under the impression the first year we raised 3 times the amount needed for the year...and then we did it all over again in 06...and now again in 07.

JM(probably unpopular)O.

[Keith Outten]

Tim,

All of the threads announcing our November Fund Drive will be deleted on December 1st. There will not be any more fund drives this year, we will be able to afford to pay our bills or not based on the November Fund Drive. Later in the year should we need to fund another server or replace our existing server I will find another means of paying for any new equipment if I can.

.

[Paul Kinneberg]

Glenn I agree with you 100%. Keep it ad free! I see enough ads in the magazines I get I don't need or want them here its just clutter I feel I can get elsewhere and $25 a year is a bargain. Just my 2 cents.

[Bruce Shiverdecker]

Just a thought, but there is not ONE of us that won't walk into a woodworking store and spend XXXXX $'s on the newest and greatest piece of EYE CANDY and not think about it. But come here and be asked for $6.00 causes a BIG debate about whether or not to have advertizing. Other than a way for us to get all the wonderful information and support that we get here, for FREE, I see no reason to add adventizing to the site.

That said, having a link forum where a screened advertizer pays for their listing, with a BRIEF description of their services, where we can go when looking for something, at least to me, makes more sense.

Our woodworking club charges a whopping $18.00 a year for 10 meetings. The comment is that if you can't get $1.80 out of a meeting is because you aren't coming! If you can't get $200.00 worth advice, help, and ideas here, in a year, you aren't participating! I know you can get that much just lurking.

To come up with, $6.00, a person could forgo about two Starbuck's a year. A couple less Lotto tickets could do the trick AND the return is MUCH BETTER!

As always, you aren't required to agree with me, but I appreciate being able to express my feelings; hopefully in a positive way.

Happy Turkey munchin' to all (btw if you don't like turkey, ham is good, too!)

Bruce;)

[Charlie Plesums]

I am not offended by a reasonable number of woodworking related ads - many sites seem to do it without giving 60% of their space to ads (like a few do). I am able to control my urge to click the ads, which is where most of the the potential risks lie.

If it is easy to "turn off the ads" for the supporting members, I think this is a brilliant solution - better even than blocking pictures for visitors.

But I also want to support this forum, so my 2007 contribution is in the paypal.

[Scott Vigder]

[quote=Reg Mitchell]

I just don't like the constant capital campaing mentality that has arisen in this forum the past 2 years....I was under the impression the first year we raised 3 times the amount needed for the year...and then we did it all over again in 06...and now again in 07.

JM(probably unpopular)O.
Personally I find it much easier to ignore a sticky asking for $$ than to ignore a big 'ol flashing banner telling me how wonderful Brand X is. Unlike PBS marathons, here you can ignore the promotion and still use the content. Think of it more like those annoying Red Bucket beggars: they do not impact your ability to shop at the store they have staked out.

I vote loudly for NO ADVERTISING. I have learned more from this forum than from any other single source. Would I rather see more threads about techniqes? You bet. Do I tire of threads asking people's opinion about certain tools? Sure. But remember, when shopping, information gleaned from real life experiences will be more valuable than manipulative advertising every time. When some of us face a large expense for a big new tool, I feel confident we will get better information from 10 Creekers than 100 advertisers.

And since I like to vote with my wallet as well as my feet, I donated $50 last month. :D

[Peter Lyon]

I guess I'll throw my $.02 into the pot. I'm not opposed to a limited amount of advertising to assist paying for the bills around here. Just like in my life, I'm sure that the owners/maintainers of sawmill creek have unexpected costs that arise throughout the year.

What I don't know and haven't seen any mention of is how much revenue does a couple of small banners placed at the top of the screen bring in? Are we talking hundreds or thousands of dollars per year?

Although I've contributed in the past, I've been deliberating whether to continue my financial support due to a distaste for the way certain matters that occurred a month or so back were handled. I believe I will contribute for one more year and see how this year unfolds.

Lastly, I would like to echo Tim's idea of doing away with the "200X contributor" labels found under peoples names. I have always found them to be completely unneccessary and, frankly, downright petty.

[jerry cousins]

i vote for no ads. and in response to someone's suggetion about allowing ads and then paying to block them - i would suggest the reverse - block them all and then let people pay if they want to see them.

jerry

[Keith Outten]

What I don't know and haven't seen any mention of is how much revenue does a couple of small banners placed at the top of the screen bring in? Are we talking hundreds or thousands of dollars per year?

Lastly, I would like to echo Tim's idea of doing away with the "200X contributor" labels found under peoples names. I have always found them to be completely unneccessary and, frankly, downright petty.

Peter,

There are other woodworking Forums that generate over $20,000.00 per year with Google ads, most are smaller in size then SMC. Now you know what that gray space at the top of this screen is worth and what we give up every year. Plus it costs me $300.00 per month for a bank loan I had to assume responsibility for in order to keep SMC online. Everyone here knows that I hate advertising but if you want it as a means of us providing a totally free SMC we can go that way. We only need $1,400.00 to reach our minimum donation level for this year so it looks like we will be advertising free for another year at this point. Another two grand will get us a new server and of course we could add more bandwidth later in the year if it is necessary and we receive additional funds. We sure could use a new battery backup, the one we use now is only lasting about 15 minutes when we lose power. Our System Administrator wants to add a second server and serve web pages from this one and use the new machine for our database but that's another two grand. We do have money in our emergency fund...for emergency's.

We started the Fund Drive ads in our signatures November 1st to bring attention to this annual event. Lots of Members complained that they didn't know that SMC was Member Supported and never knew we had a Donate button. Now there are those who are expressing a dislike of our pushing our fund drive. What we learned is that you can't please everyone all the time :)

The fund drive is going to end the last day of November and every thread will be deleted, we will also return our signatures to a more normal state. In the future we will be using our signatures to promote our FreeStuff Drawing Tool givaways since many of our Members don't visit our FreeStuff Forum.

The 2007 Titles are going to stay, we have to have some method of letting Members know that we are Member Supported and the titles show who is providing financial support. We are looking at adding more perks for contributors in an effort to entice more Members to donate which would sure be less offensive than fund drives.

.

[Tony Porter]

Peter,

There are other woodworking Forums that generate over $20,000.00 per year with Google ads, most are smaller in size then SMC. Now you know what that gray space at the top of this screen is worth and what I give up every year. Plus it costs me $300.00 per month for a bank loan I had to assume responsibility for in order to keep SMC online. Everyone here knows that I hate advertising but if you want it as a means of us providing a totally free SMC we can go that way.

We started the Fund Drive ads in our signatures November 1st to bring attention to this annual event. Lots of Members complained that they didn't know that SMC was Member Supported and never knew we had a Donate button. Now there are those who are expressing a dislike of our pushing our fund drive. What we learned is that you can't please everyone all the time :)

The fund drive is going to end the last day of November and every thread will be deleted, we will also return our signatures to a more normal state. In the future we will be using our signatures to promote our FreeStuff Drawing Tool givaways since many of our Members don't visit our FreeStuff Forum.

The 2007 Titles are going to stay, we have to have some method of letting Members know that we are Member Supported and the titles show who is providing financial support. We are looking at adding more perks for contributors in an effort to entice more Members to donate which would sure be less offensive than fund drives.

.

you cant please everyone, if you go member supported you have to do a fund drive some dislike that, then you get i donated so i should get more, or i donated more than others so i should get more, allso with donations you dont know how much you will get to plan for the sites future.

So keith i say to you as the man with all the responabilty for paying the bills and taking all the flack do whats right for you, if accepting ads relieves some of the stress i am sure you have worring about this site 24/7 accept ads, people will get used to it and i am sure you wont be putting anoying pop ups all will be tastefuuly done ,people dont like change but they get over it

[Peter Lyon]

To clarify, I don't find the fund drives offensive at all. I can totally appreciate the need to cover expenses, and dare I say, even compensate yourself for the time, effort and expertise you provide.:)

What I find bothersome is sense of public shame that goes along with not having the "200X Contributor" under your name - whether intended or not. I often wonder if those who have the "member" label feel like a modern day Hester Prynne.

Thanks for putting a dollar value on the banner. I can honestly say, there aren't many people (including me) who would say no to that kind of money if given a choice.

[John Piwaron]

I vote for ad free.

If, however, contributions don't rise to the level needed and ads must appear, I think they should be very relevant and not the annoying pop ups taking up a lot of screen space.

Heck, one reason I buy a print magazine at all is for ads. The kind of ads that appear in FWW are what I mean. Ads aren't the reason for the mag mind you, but they are useful.

The kind of ads to avoid are "off topic" - cars, drugs, public service, and so on. The kind of ads to have are for things to further the hobby or business of woodworking - ads for schools, tools, lumber, etc.

[Keith Outten]

To clarify, I don't find the fund drives offensive at all. I can totally appreciate the need to cover expenses, and dare I say, even compensate yourself for the time, effort and expertise you provide.:)

What I find bothersome is sense of public shame that goes along with not having the "200X Contributor" under your name - whether intended or not. I often wonder if those who have the "member" label feel like a modern day Hester Prynne.

Thanks for putting a dollar value on the banner. I can honestly say, there aren't many people (including me) who would say no to that kind of money if given a choice.

Thanks Peter,

Possibly we could use an icon instead of the title if that would make people more comfortable but I seriously doubt it makes a difference to many. Lots of Members who have been here for a very long time haven't noticed the titles at all. They haven't seen the DONATE button either or the contact link at the bottom of each page or .....you get the picture.

Woodworking is now a very expensive hobby. I doubt that 50 cents per month is out of reach for any woodworker including children, which is why we selected such a low figure for our suggested annual donation. I have accepted donations of just one dollar per year and gave them the same title that those who donated a hundred dollars and nobody knows but me. At The Creek the kids can hang with the big dogs for a buck a year if that is all they have or I will give them a Contributors title for free if they send me a private message and ask.

I'm sure you understand that it isn't really about making money but there is some satisfaction for me when people recognize our investment and hard work by donating something to show their support for our Community.

Happy Thanksgiving to Everyone,

Keith

[Jim Benante]

I am amazed that $6 is too much to spare for anyone on this site. I can think too many ways to save $6 to put toward a good cause.
I could skip one meal a year for access to this site. I could drive my car 3 gallons less in a year. I could buy something used instead of new once a year. I could utilize this forum to save $6 in wood by limting mistakes. I could save $6 a year in tools by buying tools that last a lifetime based on reviews here. I could build something instead of buy it and save $6. I could turn my heat down a degree in the winter for a few days a year. I could do hundreds of things to save $6 in a year.

This thansgiving evening I want to thank the creek and its members for saving me from many mistakes and helping me work through problems. I don't have anyone else to teach me woodworking and this site has taken that role.

Those of you who want to question everything, stop and realize the benefits of this forum and pony up 6 bucks to help keep it going. There shouldn't even be a question about ads as we should all help to keep the community we expect to be part of going.

[John Bailey]

Thanks Jim,

And well written.

John

[Tim Morton]

I am amazed that $6 is too much to spare for anyone on this site. I can think too many ways to save $6 to put toward a good cause.
I could skip one meal a year for access to this site. I could drive my car 3 gallons less in a year. I could buy something used instead of new once a year. I could utilize this forum to save $6 in wood by limting mistakes. I could save $6 a year in tools by buying tools that last a lifetime based on reviews here. I could build something instead of buy it and save $6. I could turn my heat down a degree in the winter for a few days a year. I could do hundreds of things to save $6 in a year.

This thansgiving evening I want to thank the creek and its members for saving me from many mistakes and helping me work through problems. I don't have anyone else to teach me woodworking and this site has taken that role.

Those of you who want to question everything, stop and realize the benefits of this forum and pony up 6 bucks to help keep it going. There shouldn't even be a question about ads as we should all help to keep the community we expect to be part of going.

It is not always "can I afford it". For me personaly its the "contributor label". And a close second is all the " Checks in the mail" Or "paypal sent" posts...I feel the contributions should be completely invisable and behind the scenes. I know we can continue this forum "ad free" and anonymous.

[Keith Outten]

Tim,

Share your thoughts with us about how we can collect donations without any advertising and letting our new Members know that our Community is self supporting. For three and a half years I have only been able to convince a very few to donate. The current fund drive has 227 Members donating as of last night in 23 days.

There are probably over 5000 active Members here, why is the donations ratio so low?

Is the self supporting model where the majority donate small sums even possible in a woodworkig forum?

I really like the ad free and anonymous idea because I dislike fund drives and begging for money. I don't know of any public Forum that has accomplished this in a large scale yet and I have had many Forum owners contact me and share their comments. Most just tell me to quit trying this model because it won't work and transition to an advertising model.

Would shutting down our server for one week each year be acceptable, just to get everyone's attention? Of course I'm joking about temporarilly shutting down The Creek but it does get lots of attention when it happens even for a couple hours.

I refuse to give up on a user supported community without a fight.

.

[Kristian Wild]

Thanks for keeping to your noble values Keith. While it's pathetic that we can't get 20% of the membership to cough up 50 cents a month, it is an unfortunate reality check of how much people take for granted.

If you have to go to a tastefully done advertiser supported forum just to keep it running - and to get a good sleep at night - then I will support you and the other admisitrators all the way.

Thanks for everything,

Kris

[John Bailey]

Kristian,

Thanks for your insight. And Keith, we've got 6 more days and with everyone's help to remind everyone they know, I think we can get enough for the member supported site. Not everyone follows these stickeys, and not everyone follows the fund raising discussions we have. I think most just take part in the wood working discussions. Imagine that!!;) So, the more we can do to remind foks, the better.

John

[Cory Newman]

I'll offer my 2 cents - I don't have an emotional tie to this forum so I'll just state some simple facts.

There are 10,313 members if that indicator is correct. And of that 226 feel it is worth $6 a year. What is that saying?

And from what I have read, the host has taken out a personal liability to keep this site afloat?

Saying no to advertisements isn't being noble, its being foolish. Post the banner ad, pay off the debt and use the rest to improve the infrastructure of the website. Improve the speed and reliablilty of the forum and perhaps more of the 10,313 will feel there is a value here. Then do the noble thing and remove the advertisements at some later date.

[Tim Morton]

Keith,

Do you think it would it work if you sent a PM to all 5000 members announcing that as of 1/1/08 there would be a $5 dollar charge to be a member. Explain that the reason for this is that we are determined to keep this an ad-free community. And then the server would be shut down for X amount of time to clear the cookies and relogging in would require the $5 contribution. Plus all new members would be required to pay a $5 dollar fee for a one year subrscription. I completely agree that reardless of financial situations we must get more than 227 out of 10000 to contribute or else the site will fail. Personally I am just grasping at straws here as well and throwing out possible reasons in my posts as to why the fundraising has hit a snag. I never have a problem shooting off my mouth when it isn't requested of me:D

I think the initial fund drive you did in the beginning was SO successful because it had the feel of a barn raising...we all wanted to keep SMC afloat and it had the feelign it was going to close or be taken over. I guess the question is how to get the feel of the barn raising back.

But one thing about using ads, I think maybe if you did a mock-up of what you were thinking it would give people an idea. As opposed to them thinking it might be THIS:

http://www.hometheaterforum.com/

[Frank Hagan]

But one thing about using ads, I think maybe if you did a mock-up of what you were thinking it would give people an idea. As opposed to them thinking it might be THIS:

http://www.hometheaterforum.com/

Tim, that has to be the worst one I've seen yet! I quit visiting one forum when they had the keywords in the content ... certain words in the posts themselves ... double underlined. If your mouse cursor hovered over those words, a little pop-up window came up with some ad.

A Google ad in the upper right hand corner would probably provide at least part of the income ... I think probably $200 a month based on what I pull in on a site with 1/10th the volume of this one (or even less traffic ... I can't do LOOOOONG division!) Add an Amazon.com affilliate store we could all go to and at least have Amazon.com kick in a few bucks of the money we are already spending, and you might have it. But would that be enough? $2,400 to $3,000 from Google, another $2,400 from an Amazon.com affilliate store, and you have almost enough for daily expenses. But not enough for growth.

I suspect it will be a "tasteful ad" and "user supported community" even then.

While there are "no ads ever" folks here, most people don't care if there's a banner ad up in the upper right hand corner. The ones that do care do so out of very noble intentions, and I certainly don't want to denigrate them, but their numbers are evidently small enough that they may not be able to support the community all by themselves.

[Laurie Brown]

But one thing about using ads, I think maybe if you did a mock-up of what you were thinking it would give people an idea. As opposed to them thinking it might be THIS:

http://www.hometheaterforum.com/

Holy $$$$!!! If SMC turned into that, I'd be gone in a heartbeat, and I'm sure I'm not alone. Where the heck IS the forum in all that mess??

I vote no to ads. I run a web server and host several sites, and I refuse to allow a single ad of any type to touch my server. I get inundated every day in life on the TV, radio, billboards, pop up ads, email spam, telemarketers. I only frequent web sites where there is a minimum or no advertising. Seeing ads on a site just turns me off. There is too much of it already everywhere we look, please do not add to it here!

I run a forum on one of my sites, which is a fantasy horse racing game site. I ask for voluntary donations and get quite a few because those who donate get a bonus that other users don't get, to encourage donations. Restrictions for non-contributors and extras for contributors are a great way to get donations, and are fair. Not sure what those could be here on SMC. But if there are 10,000 members and less than 300 contributors something is wrong, especially since they're only being asked for $6.

[Tim Morton]

I think they would be looking more like this, which BTW is not even noticable IMO.

http://www.tundrasolutions.com/forums/

[Ryan Combs]

First off, I'm new here, but have been checking out the site for a while. At first I didn't even notice the lack of ads, but can appreciate their abscence. The above linked sites ads (even the tundra one) all seem to have too much presence. Other forums like woodnet.net and my other hobby sites www.rcgroups.com (http://www.rcgroups.com) and www.wattflyer.com (http://www.wattflyer.com) both have ads. Rcgroups are more visable, but easy to ignore, because they are in the corners and out of the way. Either way is fine with me, as long as the ads do not take over the content, and if $10 or whatever is needed, then it is worth it to me. I think if you make it mandatory, many possible users will be turned away before they have a chance to decide if the content and layout is worth the price.

Thanks, Ryan

[Joe Mioux]

I'll offer my 2 cents - I don't have an emotional tie to this forum so I'll just state some simple facts.

There are 10,313 members if that indicator is correct. And of that 226 feel it is worth $6 a year. What is that saying?

And from what I have read, the host has taken out a personal liability to keep this site afloat?

Saying no to advertisements isn't being noble, its being foolish. Post the banner ad, pay off the debt and use the rest to improve the infrastructure of the website. Improve the speed and reliablilty of the forum and perhaps more of the 10,313 will feel there is a value here. Then do the noble thing and remove the advertisements at some later date.

Cory:

Back in October of 2005, SMC was under some critical expenses. John Baily took it upon himself to start an unsanctioned fund drive. If my memory serves me correctly, we generated over $7,000. That money was more than enough to keep SMC healthy.

Once again earlier this year, before you joined, John Bailey pushed again and we responded.

The reason you may see so few SMC regulars responding is that we have put up money earlier this year or last year.

I remember some members pledging $100 last Oct.

Personally, I have put up money and will be happy to do it again. I just didn't want to do it now, until your post.

John, Keith, Jackie, Aaron. "the check is in the mail" actually I will do the paypal thing.

Once again, I will contribute my usuall ( which is more than the pittence $6.00 that is asked).

Joe

[Joe Mioux]

Tim:

There are some members who take pride in the fact that they contribute to this fine forum and help keep it alive and healthy.

Not everyone has your take on the annoymous donor theme.

think about it.

sincerely joe

[Mike Leone]

There are several members of this forum that belong to the other ww forums. several members have left for various resons which you will find on the threads on the other sites.
I see no reason not to take adversising dollars to maintain this site if it doesn't compromise the integrity of the site
Now my .02
I learn a lot from the members of the various sites, I also contribute, that said I also learn a lot from advertising not about buying but about what to ask befor I purchase a product. When you eliminate all advertising from a site I think it is a dissurvice to the members. If not for advertising I would not know about festools except seeing a display at wc. I haven't seen any memtion of rebates for steel city on this site, but surly some members of this site have bought steel city tools, I think that is a dissurface to those members.

[Rob Will]

I vote no to ads. I run a web server and host several sites, and I refuse to allow a single ad of any type to touch my server. I get inundated every day in life on the TV, radio, billboards, pop up ads, email spam, telemarketers. I only frequent web sites where there is a minimum or no advertising. Seeing ads on a site just turns me off. There is too much of it already everywhere we look, please do not add to it here! .

I agree. I won't get into the details of my high stress day job but I don't even have time to read all the mail. The nice thing about SMC is that it loads fairly quick and it helps me get right to the point of what I am looking for. Who has time for a bunch of adds anyway?

Also, we need to keep in mind that some members use dial-up connections. Any added graphics brought on by adds will just slow things down.

And one more personal opinion here. Ads take up time and space. Links to topic related websites do not. There have been times when the moderator has deleted somebody's link that I thought would have been helpful to the discussion. I would allow links to advertiser sites but not the ads themselves.

Rob

[Andy Hoyt]

With all due respect to our members and guests from outside the US; I'd like to address just those who reside within its borders; but the lesson is indeed for all.

Upon occasion of the current holiday at hand, I find myself giving thanks to all who have gone before, and especially to those hardy few who landed at Plymouth back in 1620. It was their descendants along with some additional immigrants a hundred and seventy years or so later who took a bold and daring step by setting in motion various elements that would cause one of mankind's greatest experiments to unfold. Oddsmakers at the time gave it little hope of survival, as do some of their contemporaries.

But here we are two hundred thirty some odd years later and we're still at it - warts and all. The business model gets tweaked occasionally by quirks, circumstances, and your annual vote. It's kinda like the Golden Gate Bridge - it's always getting a paint job.

And so too is Sawmill Creek. It's always getting painted and tweaked. Sometimes the warts get a makeover, sometimes it's a nip here and tuck there, sometimes nothing happens at all, and sometimes it's a whole new thing.

But here's where, and why, I like this analogy and why I've sent some money down to Virginia from time to time. SMC, just like the US is another grand experiment in democracy. A unique set of rules; citizen soldiers; the free choice to particpate or not; and no monarch-like advertiser exercising subtle (or otherwise) influence. We are thusly free.

I'm not sure how large a forum we really are comparitively speaking - haven't bothered to find out - but I'm fairly certain it's "up there". That the creek has survived this long at that size on a business model that other forum owners are telling the Outtens to abandon is reason enough for me to want it to continue. My guess is that the other owners see SMC as a threat to their own survival and by pulling us into their model we become less of a threat to them as we struggle to learn how to live under a whole new bill of rights.

SMC is unique. So am I. And so are you. Together we comprise a mighty force sending forth the signal that we take care of our own and our borders are open. I'm grateful to be here, and give thanks that you are too.

[Joe Mioux]

Andy:

Well said.

there is one point thought. I don't really view this forum as a democracy. It is more of a Benevolant Dicatorship. SMC does not hold elections.

Joe

[Andy Hoyt]

Okay. How's this?

Whaddya say we hold an election which will run until December 1st. During which time our citizens will vote with their wallets as to whether they want a benevolent or malevolent dictator.

[Charles McKinley]

Demonstrate your Creekitude by showing you've got Moxie!

Hey Andy,

What doesa chocolate drink from the 40's have to do with Creekitude? :D

I believe that this site can be member supported and continue to grow. I have offered to help to plan futuer fund raising and present it in a way that it is better understood by the community. I didn't even realize that a "fund drive" was even going on! I saw the few extra notes ia the sig lines but it didn't state that it was any different than the ongoing donate button that is always there.

Perception is reality. I believe that a lot more people value this site than have donated and it is a brake down in communication. There are a lot of subtalities to fund rasing but the ASK cannot be one of them. The freerider problem is hard to over come without a direct question being asked to a person. Ex. You are surrounded by people after some one has a heart attack and shout call an ambulance and even if everyone knows the person no-one may call. Look directly at some one and say it and they probably will even if they don't know the person.

The experiment goes on!

[Joe Mioux]

Okay. How's this?

Whaddya say we hold an election which will run until December 1st. During which time our citizens will vote with their wallets as to whether they want a benevolent or malevolent dictator.

LOL

thanks Andy!

[John Bailey]

Perception is reality. I believe that a lot more people value this site than have donated and it is a brake down in communication.

Charles,

I believe you're right on. I kinda fell into this job a year ago when we had a real emergency and I thought we'd loose the Creek. I don't really know what I'm doing. All along, I've thought the real problem is simply getting the message out. I truely thought this yr's. drive would be a laid back affair with lots of folks contributing small amounts. I still have think we're going to get the required amount with average contributions being relatively small. Almost everyone has contributed more than the $6 recommended. Another thing to think about is that we'll continue to get contibutions during the year. There's a number of members that have indicated their willingness to contribute when they find out whether or not there will be advertising. So, I'll think we'll have a good fund raising day right after the decision is made to be member supported without advertising if, in fact, that is the case.

As a community, we need to have more folks contribute. I like the idea of being independent of advertisers. For $6, it's not really a money thing. The folks that can't, or shouldn't, pay that right now will be taken care of by the rest of us. I don't quite understand the reasoning behind those who could pay and don't and still take part, but my principles tell me to respect there decision and help them out also. It's part of the community thing to me.

The bottom line is that I think you are correct, Charles. I believe there are, literally, 1,000's of folks out there who simply have not gotten the message. Next time we'll do better.

John

[John Bailey]

SMC is unique. So am I. And so are you. Together we comprise a mighty force sending forth the signal that we take care of our own and our borders are open. I'm grateful to be here, and give thanks that you are too.

Hey Andy,

Can I move to Maine?:rolleyes:

Well said my friend.

John

[Joash Boyton]

I think that if the ads are kept to woodworking, that would be fine.....Google does some well-paid advertising, and for those with dial up, with google, most of their ad's are just text ad's, and take up a box around 1.5"x3.0", I think that if it comes to that, advertising would be fine, I log around 4 hours on the net every day, and don't even care about ad's, in fact I find them helpful, for example, those really cheap pen kits at woodcrafts they were advertising the other day.......

I think that if there was a fee to be a member, I would be turned off of here (no offense) I can just not log-in, and find all the info by being a guest, and there are other ww forums as well. I think that if there is not enough $$$ contributed, that we should resort to advertising, just don't make them too blatant, and keep it too woodworking.

Just my $0.02 worth(hey, that's worth $0.03 in AUD$:D)

Joash:)

[Jim Becker]

I would allow links to advertiser sites but not the ads themselves.
Links like that are allowed by the TOS as long as they are not in signatures and as long as they are not blatant advertising by the vendor, themselves. Only direct links to other forums and auctions are disallowed.

Jim
SMC Moderator

[Andrew Melamed]

eh, Ill try to donate later or tommorow. Have to go put some money in the bank so my debit card doesnt go over.

[Elliott Cameron]

I am a nobody on this forum. RARELY post , infrequently browse. I get the impression that this place is a " Country Club " . If you keep it 'user-supported' the people who have the "contributor stamp" under their name will eventually start feeling that they 'own' the place. It is just a simple fact of human nature. Eventually the "BIG" contributors will start using their contribution $$$ to try to leverage their opinions on how things "should" be done and how the forum runs.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with having woodworking related banner ads at the top of the page. They have a two-fold benefit.
1. They generate much needed $$
2. They are a source of info that some folks would might not otherwise know about.Special sales , discounts , clearances etc...

If this site does decide to be strictly user supported , then there needs to be a cap on how much each person can contribute to eliminate the possibility of people using their $$$ to influence things. Don't say it won't happen because you know it WILL ! Human nature. you can't change it.

What is wrong with advertising anyway ? I run a small "niche" business that would not be able to attract new customers without advertising. Advertising is the American Way. Capitalism....our way of life !!

Elliott

[John Bailey]

Thanks Andrew,

Welcome the support.

John

[Syd Lorandeau]

My contribution is in, no ads
Syd

[John Bailey]

Thanks Syd, much appreciated.

John

[Tom Quatsoe]

Normally I would support advertising, because the more $ available, the more functionality that could be added. However, the more I think about it, the beauty of SMC is in its simplicity. It is well laid out, there is a lot of data per page, it loads quickly, and there is significantly more info in the database due to no sign up costs.

My donation was just sent. Keep up the good work.

Tom

[Joash Boyton]

well-said........:)

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Normally I would support advertising, because the more $ available, the more functionality that could be added. However, the more I think about it, the beauty of SMC is in its simplicity. It is well laid out, there is a lot of data per page, it loads quickly, and there is significantly more info in the database due to no sign up costs.

My donation was just sent. Keep up the good work.

Tom

Thanks Tom! and BTW..........Welcome to the Creek! Thanks for wading right in!

[Ken Fitzgerald]

I am a nobody on this forum. RARELY post , infrequently browse. I get the impression that this place is a " Country Club " . If you keep it 'user-supported' the people who have the "contributor stamp" under their name will eventually start feeling that they 'own' the place. It is just a simple fact of human nature. Eventually the "BIG" contributors will start using their contribution $$$ to try to leverage their opinions on how things "should" be done and how the forum runs.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with having woodworking related banner ads at the top of the page. They have a two-fold benefit.
1. They generate much needed $$
2. They are a source of info that some folks would might not otherwise know about.Special sales , discounts , clearances etc...

If this site does decide to be strictly user supported , then there needs to be a cap on how much each person can contribute to eliminate the possibility of people using their $$$ to influence things. Don't say it won't happen because you know it WILL ! Human nature. you can't change it.

What is wrong with advertising anyway ? I run a small "niche" business that would not be able to attract new customers without advertising. Advertising is the American Way. Capitalism....our way of life !!

Elliott

Elliott...........I beg to differ.............The owner of SMC is, in fact, Keith and Jackie Outten.....they own the equipment and software and have for a couple of years soley funded it. Aaron provides the free professional system administration. Recently Kieth stated he'd taken out a personal loan to fund next year's expenses. On the other hand, some of us feel it's not right that Keith, Jackie and Aaron foot the bill for the rest of us.

I personally don't like seeing the contributor tag after my name. I've been poor and know first hand what it's like to feel bad because I couldn't afford to contribute or even participate. Contributors have even had their privileges suspended here for violating the Terms of Service (rules). Being a contributor here really doesn't buy you anthing other than personal satisfaction of knowing you were able to help financially support this place and keep the Creek flowing.

[Jim Becker]

Elliot, I have to agree with Ken. Financial contributors are held to the same set of rules as all members at SMC. There have been a few people who have given larger sums, but it was through kindness and commitment to the community...they didn't receive anything more for it. Not even an SMC hat, etc...

[John Keane]

My contribution is in the mail. I would prefer to remain ad free.

[John Bailey]

Thanks John

John

[Tim Morton]

Elliott...........I beg to differ.............The owner of SMC is, in fact, Keith and Jackie Outten.....they own the equipment and software and have for a couple of years soley funded it. Aaron provides the free professional system administration. Recently Kieth stated he'd taken out a personal loan to fund next year's expenses. On the other hand, some of us feel it's not right that Keith, Jackie and Aaron foot the bill for the rest of us.

I personally don't like seeing the contributor tag after my name. I've been poor and know first hand what it's like to feel bad because I couldn't afford to contribute or even participate. Contributors have even had their privileges suspended here for violating the Terms of Service (rules). Being a contributor here really doesn't buy you anthing other than personal satisfaction of knowing you were able to help financially support this place and keep the Creek flowing.

well said ken!!

[Dan Forman]

I'v been away from the creek for a few months, but there is a check in the mail for my contribution. The main concern I would have about advertising is if they would want to have any say in content, that is, would they monitor us for negative comments about their product, and try to interfere in any way. I don't have any objection to the "pledge drives".

Maybe it would also help to try to clarify what having more money from advertising would mean to the site. In what ways could our experience be enhanced by having the sort of budget that could result from advertising. If we had some tangible advantages to weigh against maintaining the status quo, it would be easier to put the matter to rest. I didn't have time to read the entire thread, so maybe this has already been done, I just saw a few figures floating around that were pretty impressive, but not much on how that would be allocated, and how that would change our experience when we are logged on.

Dan

[lou sansone]

I would prefer SMC to be ad free. if I want adds, all I have to do is read my woodshop news. I come here to learn and share about woodworking, not to get pitched to by sellers. I think I can figure out how to spend my money without other folks help. keep the creek ad free

lou

[Keith Outten]

I'v been away from the creek for a few months, but there is a check in the mail for my contribution. The main concern I would have about advertising is if they would want to have any say in content, that is, would they monitor us for negative comments about their product, and try to interfere in any way. I don't have any objection to the "pledge drives".

Maybe it would also help to try to clarify what having more money from advertising would mean to the site. In what ways could our experience be enhanced by having the sort of budget that could result from advertising. If we had some tangible advantages to weigh against maintaining the status quo, it would be easier to put the matter to rest. I didn't have time to read the entire thread, so maybe this has already been done, I just saw a few figures floating around that were pretty impressive, but not much on how that would be allocated, and how that would change our experience when we are logged on.

Dan

Dan,

There are lots of projects, software and hardware that we could use here at SMC. A new server is in our future since the existing machine is 3 years old. Our System Administrator wants to add a second server and split our network load to improve performance during peak usage periods. Currently neither server is in our budget. We have an emergency fund that we will use to repair our existing server this year if a new server isn't funded. It would be prudent for us to replace our servers battery backup soon, the existing battery backup is a hand me down from Hampton Roads Online and the batteries are weak and only last about 15 minutes these days.

There are a number of vBulletin add-ons that would be very useful here. Aaron Koehl showed me a few that he would like to add which would add nice features to our existing software. I don't spend much time window shopping for software, when it isn't in our budget.

Recently several Members inquired about the possibility of restoring our chat server. A new chat server is possible as soon as Aaron upgrades vBulletin and a couple other operating system support programs. The vBulletin upgrade is in the neighborhood of $160.00. The chat software is free and the operating system upgrades are free but it will require some time and a system shutdown for Aaron to install and configure all the software.

Many of our Members know that Aaron Koehl is capable of programing custom software and could create modules for SMC. Although it would be nice to have slick features that no other woodworking forum has it is unreasonable to ask Aaron to provide custom programing for free. The very small fee Aaron receives each month barely covers his time to manage our server and forum software. I mentioned that Aaron and I were planning to create a new ShopTours module recently that would be very popular because woodworkers could build their own shop tour with an integrated database. This project is currently on the shelf, many of our Members hated the concept because we would have used advertising to support the programing and operational costs. If we decide to move forward on the ShopTours project in the future it will be a separate business venture for Aaron and myself and not associated with SMC in any way.

.

[Chuck Wood]

I for one would rather see it free of ads. I get enough spam in my mail without comeing to my leasure place and seeing more. There is enough ppl in here that can be far greater help to another member and give a hands on about a tool without all the hype. To me this room is for woodworkers talking to woodworkers and should remain that way.
Reg

I'm with Reg....I too get enough spam to feed the whole family :rolleyes: I say leave it up to the people that run the SMC. If they need it to keep up with the changing needs, then so be it!!! :)

[Dan Forman]

Dan,

There are lots of projects, software and hardware that we could use here at SMC. A new server is in our future since the existing machine is 3 years old. Our System Administrator wants to add a second server and split our network load to improve performance during peak usage periods. Currently neither server is in our budget. We have an emergency fund that we will use to repair our existing server this year if a new server isn't funded. It would be prudent for us to replace our servers battery backup soon, the existing battery backup is a hand me down from Hampton Roads Online and the batteries are weak and only last about 15 minutes these days.

There are a number of vBulletin add-ons that would be very useful here. Aaron Koehl showed me a few that he would like to add which would add nice features to our existing software. I don't spend much time window shopping for software, when it isn't in our budget.

Recently several Members inquired about the possibility of restoring our chat server. A new chat server is possible as soon as Aaron upgrades vBulletin and a couple other operating system support programs. The vBulletin upgrade is in the neighborhood of $160.00. The chat software is free and the operating system upgrades are free but it will require some time and a system shutdown for Aaron to install and configure all the software.

Many of our Members know that Aaron Koehl is capable of programing custom software and could create modules for SMC. Although it would be nice to have slick features that no other woodworking forum has it is unreasonable to ask Aaron to provide custom programing for free. The very small fee Aaron receives each month barely covers his time to manage our server and forum software. I mentioned that Aaron and I were planning to create a new ShopTours module recently that would be very popular because woodworkers could build their own shop tour with an integrated database. This project is currently on the shelf, many of our Members hated the concept because we would have used advertising to support the programing and operational costs. If we decide to move forward on the ShopTours project in the future it will be a separate business venture for Aaron and myself and not associated with SMC in any way.

.

Keith---Has this been explained before, in a way such that everyone would be likely to see it? If not, maybe there would be a way of doing so before time runs out, especially if the "new features" could be described as well. The extent of advertising should be described as well, just a banner in the blank spot vs. blinking doodads and other assorted whatnots. Change is difficult for a lot of folks, and to ask this of people, it is best to make the options as clear as possible, otherwise many will envision the worst possible outcome. I would recommend creating a very detailed proposal to put before the members, spelling out all of the advantages of advertising, all of the benefits that would make available, and detail exactly how that would change the look (how invasive/extensive) the advertising would be. I think that's the only way to get a good vote on this, people need to be able to make their own cost vs. benefit assessment before voting.

Do you have any thoughts about my other concern, that of advertisiers wanting to exert some control of content, such as negative reviews of their products?

Dan

[Lincoln Myers]

I am a nobody on this forum. RARELY post , infrequently browse. I get the impression that this place is a " Country Club " . If you keep it 'user-supported' the people who have the "contributor stamp" under their name will eventually start feeling that they 'own' the place. It is just a simple fact of human nature. Eventually the "BIG" contributors will start using their contribution $$$ to try to leverage their opinions on how things "should" be done and how the forum runs...

If this site does decide to be strictly user supported , then there needs to be a cap on how much each person can contribute to eliminate the possibility of people using their $$$ to influence things. Don't say it won't happen because you know it WILL ! Human nature. you can't change it.

Elliott

I couldn't disagree more with these statements.

-Linc

[Keith Outten]

Dan,

Should we ever decide to use Google Ads the advertisers wouldn't have a direct association with SMC and thus no influence on the content of our Forums. When direct advertising is used there is a close relationship that has to be protected or suffer a loss in financial support. Prior to the system that Google uses advertising would have been detrimental to our ability to openly discuss certain issues. Google offers an alternative that provides a rotating advertisement based on keywords providing ads that are relevant to woodworking subjects.

I have seen sites that use Google ads that are text based links and those who use small graphics. Our System Administrator has researched the possibility in the past and would be able to provide more information about how it works and how he would implement any graphics. Our Fund Drive is almost over and we have already received enough donations to continue as a Members Supported Community for our second year so there isn't any sense of emergency now. We have plenty of time to discuss whether our Members prefer to expand the Creek or keep things exactly as it is at the present time. We hope that donations will continue to be made so we are able to at least build a second server this year.

.

[Greg Funk]

I have a few comments and suggestions, largely based on observations of another very well run site (rennlist.com) I am a member of. Rennlist is a little larger than SMC but consists of members equally passionate about their hobby (cars). Member dues are a little higher ($16-18/yr) and provide a few additional benefits (access to certain forums, posting and viewing pictures. classified ads etc). No pressure from Administrator or moderators to join, however, there can be pressure from individual members. I believe the % of paid members is higher than SMC.

No fund drives at rennlist. I think in general the decision to join a group is a personal one and often triggered by some particularly helpful bit of advice. This can come at any time of the year. Once a member joins they can be sent an annual renewal notice. There are usually enough incentives or reminders during the year to encourage users to sign up as members.

I would replace the 'xxxx contributor' notation with a simple member designation. I am not sure why you want to continue to provide member benefits to a 2005 or 2006 contributor.

In addition to direct member support rennlist also has a number (approx 70) of commercial sponsors. Sponsors have some limited ability to post once in a while about their products and have an ad banner rotated through certain forum boards. I had never noticed any banner ads, however I started looking when I noticed the issues SMC was struggling with. Some of the forums have an ad banner (http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforums/forumdisplay.php?f=58) and some don't (http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforums/forumdisplay.php?f=59).

I think for users to make an informed 'vote' on whether or not they want any commercial interests supporting SMC it is necessary to clearly define the scope of what commercial sponsorship entails. Clearly, there are many examples of offensive and annoying ads which I understand everyone would prefer not to see. On the other hand I believe I have provided an example above of an innocuous ad and have trouble believing it would seriously detract from anyone's enjoyment of this site.

My final suggestion would be to not consider the sponsorship decision to be an either/or one but rather consider having both. Member support could provide the base essentials to run the site with the commercial sponsors funding some of the 'nice to have' features. If you find yourself with too much money you could always sponsor some high school woodworking initiatives...

[John Bailey]

Thanks Greg. Those are well stated suggestions. Until last year we didn't have a fund drive. But our numbers have doubled and we needed to do something. We've always tried to keep the site open to all, both members and guests. Until recently, we were able to provide full access to both. That's one of the things that make SMC unique. We, still, are providing access to guests, but we had to cut back on providing access to pictures because it was slowing us down. After the fund drive, we are going to have some discussions about how to continue with the funding. Hope you can join it at that time.

Thanks,

John

[Jim Becker]

I am not sure why you want to continue to provide member benefits to a 2005 or 2006 contributor.

This one I can answer...at that point in time, many contributors gave more than the suggested $6 per year. Some gave hundreds. We feel that counts when it comes to the few small extra benefits that financial contributors have access to.

[Greg Funk]

This one I can answer...at that point in time, many contributors gave more than the suggested $6 per year. Some gave hundreds. We feel that counts when it comes to the few small extra benefits that financial contributors have access to.

If someone gives more than the annual membership then they should naturally receive membership for multiple years. For substantial contributions (financial or otherwise) you can add another designation for 'lifetime member'.

I think it is good to instill the notion of an annual membership that needs to be renewed each year.

I also think the $6/yr contribution should be raised. For most contributors on the board it is unlikely to be a deciding factor whether or not they join. If the annual membership rates are increased it would also allow you to provide a usable set of features for those who weren't in a position to contribute or didn't use the site enough to justify membership.

Greg

[Jim Becker]

I hear you, Greg. But keep in mind that the $6 is a "suggested annual donation", not a membership "fee". Most folks who donate send multiples of that. SMC registration is free. Access to almost everything at SMC is free. (the downloads in the new plans forum the one major exception...it's a carrot...) Will this ultimately work long term? I don't know. But as Keith has pointed out, SMC is a "valuable market", so if we have to go to Google Ads at some point, we can adapt. That doesn't look like it's going to be necessary for now.

BTW, in order to keep track of things on a more formal bases, Aaron would need to write more code. We have more important needs to use up his copious free time... ;) ...and so does his lady friend...

[Aaron Black]

I found this site in may, when due to illiness I had to take a leave of work.
I sorry to say I really don't have the six bucks this year ,but be sure I will give in future years when times are better. That being said I like the site being ad free, once you start you start with small ads I guarentee it will turn into more until its to much. AARON

[John Bailey]

I found this site in may, when due to illiness I had to take a leave of work.
I sorry to say I really don't have the six bucks this year ,but be sure I will give in future years when times are better. That being said I like the site being ad free, once you start you start with small ads I guarentee it will turn into more until its to much. AARON

Aaron,

You take care of yourself - we got you covered. Thanks for your support.

John