Varnishes/Poly brands

[Matt P]

Hi,
I've read many times of people using particular brands of varnishes (e.g. Waterlox, Target).

1) Does the brand really matter that much? What is the difference from the Minwax Poly that I buy at the hardware store? Just wondering. I also bought a can of Last n Last poly.

2) Someone was telling me to thin the varnish 50% and wipe on thin coats, rubbing off the excess quickly with a rag. Supposedly to build a series of thin coats. Is this worth it?

p.s. I live in the city and don't have equipment for spray applications..

Thanks,
matt

[Jeff Heil]

I used Minwax exclusively, until I tried Varthane Poly. Minwax was adequate, but the Varthane is a far superior product in my experience. I use mostly satin poly and thin it to 50% with mineral spirits to make my own wiping varnish. The Varthane is thicker, levels better (read less sanding between coats) and has a pleasing amber color. I have used it on furniture and hardwood flooring with much success.

My two cents, I am sure there are other brands of poly that are better than Minwax. Buy a gallon of another brand and see what you think. Minwax is readily available and reasonably priced, but I think there are better options.

I found wiping 3-5 coats of poly to build sufficently. It is a decent alternative to a spray setup, but you have to be willing to accept the amber tone and sometimes plastic look of poly.

[Rob Millard]

Matt,

I’ve used Behlen’s 4 hour Rubbing Varnish, which is sadly no longer made and their excellent Rock Hard Table Top Varnish, for nearly all the tops on my furniture. A couple of years ago I tried some Minwax Poly, for the first time in some years (I used to use it on interior trim when I worked as a carpenter), and I was surprised at how thin it was and how many coats it took to build a decent film. This thinness also made rubbing out a challenge since it was quite easy to get witness lines. Still, in the end the result was pleasing, and I’ve thought about trying a better quality poly, because they cure much more quickly than the varnish (which is glacial). Also, back in my carpenter days, a customer supplied the poly for one job, and since he was a first class tight wad, he found some off brand of poly. It was pure junk, so brand certainly does make a difference.
For the most part, I’ve been unimpressed with wiping varnish, but I did try the method described in an article by Thomas E. Wisshack in Fine Woodworking No. 132, October 1998. If I was patient and applied enough coats the resulting finish was durable and lacked the heavy look of brushed on varnish.

Rob Millard

[Jim Becker]

Different formulas perform differently and each "brand name" tends to have unique formulas...even though many of the brand names are owned by the same companies. Minwax is the "retail mass market" leader...it's available everywhere--and they are the prime offender in the "poly everywhere" mantra. They have a few "good" products, based on folks reporting, but many others are lacking.

Finish choice is a very subjective thing. There are great products, but sometimes you need to make a bit a effort to source them since they are not on the shelves at your local 'borg. Pratt and Lambert #38 varnish, for example, is a wonderful lighter toned alkyd varnish formulated with soya oil. Hard to find, but worth the effort.

And then there is the oil-based versus water borne choice. I pretty much only use water borne products for spraying. De-Waxed shellac is my other regular use product, both as a barrier coat and as a final finish, depending on the project. I generally use Target Coatings USL as a clear finish when spraying...but there are many fine products in this space, many recently reviewed in Fine Woodworking.

Yes, I have used Minwax polyurethane varnish in a pinch...just drive to the store, buy it and use. But I also need to refinish my kitchen table this spring 'cause it just plain hasn't held up to the daily cleaning. And kitchen tables are the only thing I'd use poly on...reluctantly, that is. I just don't like it. Very subjective, eh?

[Matt P]

Yes, I guess it is subjective.. Maybe I'll try another brand..
thanks,
Matt

[Jim Becker]

Matt, try several to find something you like. Investing in a few quarts is worth it in the long run.

[Howard Acheson]

Jim, and others have given you good advise on your first question. Let me deal with your second question about wipe on varnishes.

There are commercially available wipe on varnishes made by Minwax and Watco but you can easily make your own by mixing equal parts of your favorite varnish or poly vanish and mineral spirits. Here is something put together by a friend of mine on how the process works.

QUOTE

There are a number of suggested application regimens that are totally subjective. The number of coats in a given day, the % of cut on various coats, which coat to sand after, when to use the blade and a whole host of other practices are all minor differences between finishers. There are some things that I consider sacred when applying a wipe-on finish.

First, you can use any full strength oil based clear finish. Polyurethane varnish or non-poly varnish is fine.

If you are making your own wipe-on the mix is scientific - thin. I suggest 50/50 with mineral spirits because it is easier to type than any other ratio and easy to remember. Some finish formulators have jumped on the bandwagon and you can now get "wipe on" finish pre-mixed. If you use a pre-mixed, thinning is generally not neccessary. But making your own is cheaper and you know what's in it.

The number of coats in a given day is not important. Important is to apply a wet coat with an applicator and merely get it on. Think of a 16 year old kid working as a busboy at Denny's you have sent over to wipe off a table. Sort of swirl the the material on like you would if you were applying a paste wax. Don't attempt straight strokes. The applicator should be wet but not soaked. The applicator can be a paper towel, half a T-shirt sleeve or that one sock left after a load of washing. Then leave it alone. The surface should not be glossy or wet looking. If you have missed a spot, ignore it - you will get it on the next coat. If you try and fix a missed spot you will leave a mark in the finish.

Timing for a second coat involves the pinkie test. Touch the surface with your pinkie. If nothing comes off you are ready for another coat. If was tacky 5 minutes ago but not now, apply your next coat just as you applied the previous coat. Remember, you are wet wiping not flooding. After applying the second coat, let it fully dry for 48 hours. Using 320 paper and a sanding block ligthtly sand the surface flat. Now, begin applying more coats. Do not sand between coats unless you have allowed more than 24 hours to elapse since the prior coat. The number of coats is not critical - there is no critical or right number to apply. For those who need a rule, four more coats on non-critical surfaces or six more coats on surfaces that will get abraded seems to work.

After your last coat has dried at least over night you will have boogers in the surface. You should not have marks in the surface because you ignored application flaws. You may have dust, lint and, if you live in Texas, bug legs. Use a utility knife blade at this point. Hold it between your thumb and forefinger, near the vertical, and gently scrape the surface. Gentle is the important word - no harder than you would scrape your face. If you start scraping aggressively you will leave small cut marks in the surface. After you have scraped to the baby butt stage gently abrade the surface with 320 dry paper or a gray ScotchBrite. Clean off the surface. Now, leave the area for two hours and change your clothes. Apply your last coat with a bit more care than the previous coats and walk away.

An anal person is going to have a tough time with this process. Missed spots have to be ignored. Wet wipe, don't flood. Scraping to babies butt smooth means scraping no harder than scraping a babies butt. Ignoring any of these will leave marks that are tough to get out. Getting these marks out requires some agressive sanding to flatten out the surface and starting over.

Jim Kull

END QUOTE

Finally, It works better to use a gloss varnish for all coats except the last. The flatteners in semi-gloss and satin tend to rapidly fall out of suspension when the finish is highly thinned. If you want a non-gloss finish, use it only on the final coat or two and be sure to stir the material frequently or you will end up with cloudy streaks.

[Matt P]

Thank you Howie,
Sounds good
Matt