SawStop triggered brake pics...

[Walt Caza]

Good Day All,
I just wanted to share these pics of a triggered brake cartridge locked onto a fresh 50 tooth carbide blade, as requested by Ben G.
This is my first try at posting pics on the Creek. (squash to fit, huh?)

I drove 4 hrs each way to attend a Sawstop hotdog demo. I arrived in time
for the first demo of the day, wife rode shotgun. We were the only two
to show up for the early bird. The rep seemed so pleased by my dedication
that he agreed to my request to keep the brake locked onto the blade.
I wanted to hang it on my shop wall.

I did buy my saw that morning. As you can see, the results of a trigger
are NOT as violent and destructive as many expect. In fact, usually just
a few carbide teeth get cracked as far as visable damage shows.
Perhaps the structural integrity of the blade is also compromised ?
Some who have seen my souvenir suggest prying off the brake to
reclaim the fresh blade, but I like the shop decoration.

I also made a nice MPEG video of the hotdog and big bang !
Removing the blade/brake from the mounting pins can prove a bit dodgey.
The firing spring locks it all on saw at about 150 pounds of pressure.
The brake adjustment screw is backed off and they are pryed off as a set.

Be well,
Walt

ps when I told the wife I wanted to upgrade my contractor saw,
she said, 'get a good one'. I believe I did !!
:)

[Art Mulder]

Some who have seen my souvenir suggest prying off the brake to reclaim the fresh blade, but I like the shop decoration.


Don't!!!

Next time someone suggests that to you, why not respond with something like : "I bought a saw designed for safety. So, why would I then do something so dangerous?".

translation: would YOU put a damaged carbide-toothed blade on your saw and take the chance of it throwing a loose tooth at you at who-knows-how-many meters-per-second !?

I know of a fellow nearby who teaches woodworking, and he throws out a blade even if it is just dropped onto the concrete floor. Why take the chance?

[Mark Rios]

Those are great pics, Thanks.

I see that 5 teeth engaged the brake block, with the top/5th one being right at the top. Have you looked reeeeeeaaally closely and the first and second teeth below the block to see if they actually hit first? Stopping in five teeth while the blade is spinning at 3400+ RPM is amazing.

[Ken Werner]

The saw stop is calling me...calling me....calling me....
Thanks for posting those great pictures, and I hope you can answer Mark's question. And BTW where was the demo?
Ken

[Jim Murphy]

When I saw the hotdog demonstration, the blade/brake were passed around for inspection. I took a very close look, and there was a tiny, but definite ding on the tooth ahead of the blade, and maybe a tiny scratch on the tooth ahead of that one. But that was it.

[Leon Jester]

Re-using a damaged blade is not economical and it's dangerous.

Let's look at the economics of it:

Emergency room fee: $250 -- this is for walking in the door and saying you need to be seen by us.

Labs: at least $75 -- we'll draw them, if for no other reason, to check your coagulation.

X-rays -- between $175 to 400, depending on body part -- that's plain films, not a CT scan.

Suture material, suturing -- about $200 -- if you're lucky.

If you're not lucky: Surgical consult, probably $500.

Surgery: OR time is about $1,500 per hour. More if there's an assistant.

Anaesthesiologist Fees: about $2,500 for general anaesthesia.

Surgeon's fees: start at about $1,100 and go up, depending on what's being fixed and how long it takes to fix it.

This has gotten you to the OR from the ER. It hasn't put you into a hospital bed yet.

Really, gang, you don't want to see us professionally. It's not economical.

And let's say you're really unlucky, the fragment hits you in the neck and severs an artery -- funeral costs are at least $7,000, although they may be cheaper than seeing us, it's not going to be a lot of fun for your family.

Cost of a really fancy new blade: Less than $175.

You're ahead on bucks just to trash the blade and not see us. Really.

[Tom Ruflin]

Walt, thanks for posting the pictures. I would like to see the hotdog demo in person someday, as long as it's not in my shop with my SawStop! Pictures like this make me happy that I bought one last year.

[Mike Spanbauer]

Lol Leon... sound business advice for any power tool really. Saw stop can't overcome common sense though. That tingly feeling is critical to listen to on any tool. My closest calls haven't been on the tablesaw.

Regardless, it is a powerful peace of mind AND the fact remains that accidents do happen. I think the technology and saw itself rock. I just had issues w/ the market position and technology adoption tactics employed by the manufacturer.

I've heard too many great things about the saws themselves to not believe the users.

Use it in good health, you certainly did good for that upgrade :)

mike

[Mike Heidrick]

Walt, what is the wait time on your new saw?

[Ben Grunow]

Thanks Walt. The close up is great, maybe someone could tell em how to crop it and make it my dexktop image (so it fills the screen). Thanks again.

[Steve Canada]

Re-using a damaged blade is not economical and it's dangerous.

Let's look at the economics of it:

Emergency room fee: $250 -- this is for walking in the door and saying you need to be seen by us.

Labs: at least $75 -- we'll draw them, if for no other reason, to check your coagulation.

X-rays -- between $175 to 400, depending on body part -- that's plain films, not a CT scan.

Suture material, suturing -- about $200 -- if you're lucky.

If you're not lucky: Surgical consult, probably $500.

Surgery: OR time is about $1,500 per hour. More if there's an assistant.

Anaesthesiologist Fees: about $2,500 for general anaesthesia.

Surgeon's fees: start at about $1,100 and go up, depending on what's being fixed and how long it takes to fix it.

This has gotten you to the OR from the ER. It hasn't put you into a hospital bed yet.

Really, gang, you don't want to see us professionally. It's not economical.

And let's say you're really unlucky, the fragment hits you in the neck and severs an artery -- funeral costs are at least $7,000, although they may be cheaper than seeing us, it's not going to be a lot of fun for your family.

Cost of a really fancy new blade: Less than $175.

You're ahead on bucks just to trash the blade and not see us. Really.


This is why I have all my injuries in Canada. :p

[Ted Baca]

Pretty amazing saw. I saw the hotdog demo Saturday in Denver at the WW Show. I actually missed it since the person in front of me blocked my view at the precise moment. I had asked to have the blade at an angle so I could see if it deflected enough to hit the throat plate. It didn't seem to, as it retracts so fast. I plan to order mine Friday. This saw has so many features not mentioned in the brochure. The table top is so easily adjustable, no mallet required it actually has adjusting screws and a pivot.
I found out also today in phone conversation from SS that the trunnion has cam adjusters to insure that the blade stays true at all heights. The person I spoke with also told me that the mnobile base should be out by the end of Dec., he tells me it all 1/4' steel construction and had a bottle jack and foot activated pump for lifting. I just thing this saw is the greatest thing since .....well sliced bread.
By the way that last picture really shows how the teeth dug in. Thanks for the great close up.

[Joe Jensen]

Pretty amazing saw. I saw the hotdog demo Saturday in Denver at the WW Show. I actually missed it since the person in front of me blocked my view at the precise moment. I had asked to have the blade at an angle so I could see if it deflected enough to hit the throat plate. It didn't seem to, as it retracts so fast. I plan to order mine Friday. This saw has so many features not mentioned in the brochure. The table top is so easily adjustable, no mallet required it actually has adjusting screws and a pivot.
I found out also today in phone conversation from SS that the trunnion has cam adjusters to insure that the blade stays true at all heights. The person I spoke with also told me that the mnobile base should be out by the end of Dec., he tells me it all 1/4' steel construction and had a bottle jack and foot activated pump for lifting. I just thing this saw is the greatest thing since .....well sliced bread.
By the way that last picture really shows how the teeth dug in. Thanks for the great close up.

It's a decision you won't regret. I love mine...joe

[Randal Stevenson]

I am still waiting to see the contractor saw (these are WAY out of my budget otherwise for the foreseeable future).

HOWEVER, I would love to see the blade pulled off the brake, and analyzed, by it's manufacturer, to actually see what kind of damage the blades take.

[Randy Meijer]

Anyone know what the brake material is?? Looks like aluminum in the picture; but that could be deceptive. Thanks.

[Jim Murphy]

Randy,
You're right, the block itself is aluminum.

[Blaine Harrison]

The third picture, close up of the brake itself shows pretty much how far the blade spins after the brake is activated. It's not far. Combine that with the blade dropping (which would seem to effectively move the blade backwards) and you've got very little forward movement of the teeth once the brake is activated.

While this is good technology, there's an OSHA-type guy on another forum who bashes SawStop because you have to actually touch the blade to activate the safety feature. I've got mixed feelings about that statement, but theoretically, he's right. A perfect safety feature would prevent contact in the first place. Someday maybe technology will get to that point.

I saw the hot dog demo at the Chicago WW show. It's loud and impressive. I was at least as impressed with the fit and finish of the saw itself. I'm not completely convinced that the saw is worth the price, but as one other poster said, it's cheaper than a blade-touch accident.

One thing that I don't think I've heard mentioned is what percent of accidents on the TS involve actually touching the blade. Seems to me that most accidents I've heard about involve kickback where the work piece or cutoff causes the damage. The last accident I heard about (I think on this forum) was with a splitter with pawls was in place. SawStop technology would not have prevented that.

My $0.02 (or $0.03).

Blaine

[Lars Thomas]

While this is good technology, there's an OSHA-type guy on another forum who bashes SawStop because you have to actually touch the blade to activate the safety feature. I've got mixed feelings about that statement, but theoretically, he's right. A perfect safety feature would prevent contact in the first place. Someday maybe technology will get to that point.


Well, until the Table saw is equipped with ESP, the Saw Stop seems like a reasonable stop-gap. I, for one, am glad my air bag only deploys after an accident. It wouldn't do me much good before.

[Jim Hinze]

While this is good technology, there's an OSHA-type guy on another forum who bashes SawStop because you have to actually touch the blade to activate the safety feature. I've got mixed feelings about that statement, but theoretically, he's right. A perfect safety feature would prevent contact in the first place. Someday maybe technology will get to that point.


Technically the OSHA dude is correct, but I personally feel it's a bit short sighted.

Obviously today we have the Gr-ripper, push blocks, push sticks, blade guards, splitters and riving knives. Those are all designed to keep your hands from making contact with the blade but as we've all either seen, heard of, or experienced first hand are not all reliable.

Barring a star trek-esque force field around the blade preventing human skin from passing the barrier, .. or more reliably just not using or operating a table saw, I don't think we'll ever see the "Perfect" safety feature.

Love saw stop or hate it, the technology is sound, and is proven to save apendages. At some point in the near future, one will be in my shop.

[Mark Rios]

Well, until the Table saw is equipped with ESP, the Saw Stop seems like a reasonable stop-gap. I, for one, am glad my air bag only deploys after an accident. It wouldn't do me much good before.


Lars, I think I saw an article in Psychic Weekly that an ESP equipped saw is in the works. However, the wood you use must be on an astral plane.




:D

[Barry Beech]

One thing that I don't think I've heard mentioned is what percent of accidents on the TS involve actually touching the blade. Seems to me that most accidents I've heard about involve kickback where the work piece or cutoff causes the damage. The last accident I heard about (I think on this forum) was with a splitter with pawls was in place. SawStop technology would not have prevented that.

Blaine



I think this is the accident that you referred to. The kick-back cause the gentleman to lean into the blade and seriously injured his hand. That is one of my major worries when working on my tablesaw. That is why a saw stop is in my future.

The saw stop would not prevent the kick back but this gentleman would still have his hand intact after this accident.





I recently read a post, possibly here, in which a man was hit by a kickback because his dust collectior caused a quarter inch piece of plywood to lift and contact the blade.

Yesterday afternoon a close friend who has many years of accident free experience with a table saw had an accident that may cost him his middle finger, and had his ring and little fingers seriousy cut. He was ripping a piece of Walnut about three inches wide and thirty six inches long and was using a push stick when the offcut side of the stock flew back and struck him in the lower stomach causing him to flinch and lean forward, the hand holding the push stick dropped and contacted the blade.

I have had a few kickbacks but never on the offcut side and he has mentioned having several in spite of his being very safety conscious.

It doesn't seem plausible but does anyone think it's at all possible the vacuum from the DC may be involved in this?

[Lars Thomas]

Come on Mark, You haven't seen the article yet. It's in next month's issue, but as a fellow psychic, you obviously knew that.

[Steve Canada]

I just got off the phone with Sawstop.

I was wondering WHEN the contractor version might be available in Canada. Well,I was surprised to know it's not even available in the US yet. They said they don't even know when it will be available.

That sounds like a long time, and the Cabinet version is out of my price range right now. :(

[Walt Caza]

Hi Blaine,
In response to a couple of your points, SawStop does not market
their brake technology as a 'perfect safety system'. The manual clearly
states on page #1 that the goal is to minimize any injury.

Also, you mentioned that SawStop would not have prevented a kickback
injury. SawStop just might have prevented kickback with either of two
features:

-the riving knife shadows the blade and does prevent kickback, rising and
lowering with the blade, even on bevels, even on non-through cuts,
while helping the workpiece not move away from the fence, and also
not having the workpiece lifted behind the blade, which is where many
kickbacks get their mulekick power to cause harm
(even a person who normally uses No guard will find it unobtrusive):)

-the Sawstop blade guard is of such a clever design, that is often used
by others that admit they used No guard previously (and have told me so)

Furthermore, had a kickback happened, the brake would stop the blade
and retract it below the table surface in between 3-5 milliseconds
thus minimizing injury, depending on user adjustment of the blade to
brake gap. (smaller gap, quicker triggered brake stopping)

Personally, I find it difficult to believe that anyone who ever put in a full
day on a tablesaw, trying to be productive while trying to stay intact,
would not be at least curious about the benefits of this technology.
It is a step of progress. There must be a SawStop, before a JointerStop,
BandsawStop, LawnmowerStop and FoodProcessorStop to become possible and lesson injuries for all. (I have put in thousands of full days in 23 yrs)

I did not post these pics looking for debate. I am comfortable with my
choice, and I am comfortable with the choices others make for themselves.
I posted them because Ben G. asked me to...

In peace,
Walt

[Mark Rios]

Come on Mark, You haven't seen the article yet. It's in next month's issue, but as a fellow psychic, you obviously knew that.


My nose is burning from the diet coke that just exited it.............................:D :D :D

[Lars Thomas]

Mark, if you liked that one . . .check out the response to your posting over at http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=46282

[Nick Roper]

I think this is the accident that you referred to. The kick-back cause the gentleman to lean into the blade and seriously injured his hand. That is one of my major worries when working on my tablesaw. That is why a saw stop is in my future.

The saw stop would not prevent the kick back but this gentleman would still have his hand intact after this accident.

Actually no it wouldn't have, and this is why I hate lawyers. They can turn even the best idea into a fraud riddled mess without even trying. I guess any business is suseptable to it, but lawyers seem to make it an art form.

Although Mr Gass represented that position before the CPSC, Exhibit B in response to his proposal was a letter by Mr Gass to the editor of Woodshop News, whose engineers disputed the claim that a Saw Stop would prevent accidents in the case of kickbacks and sudden displacement of wood in the same manner as it would the hotdog test.
Mr Gass was forced to acknowledge that, "Certainly, if the user pushes hard toward the blade and the wood is displaced, the hand would slip forward into the blade at a speed sufficient to cause more than a 1/16" nick-perhaps even amputation-even with a Saw Stop"

You will find this paticular misrepresentation on page 60 of part 3 in the PTI response of the CPSC proposal.