I Wanna Build Something [Archive] - Sawmill Creek Woodworking Community

John Hart

11-20-2006, 8:03 AM

As many of you know, I just bought my dream home and we're in the middle of making it a fantasy homestead. One of the things I got with this place is a 22 Horsepower diesel engine that is located in the woodshop. (The Amish gentleman who was the previous owner used it to power all his woodworking tools.)

Anyway, it's got a 2" shaft going out to the shop that spins at roughly 1800 Rpm and I can mount any kind of pulleys on to this shaft and drive whatever I want. So here's what I was thinkin':

I figger I can build a lathe from scratch and have about a 4 foot swing if I wanted. Only thing is....I don't have a clue about how to start or what dangers I might encounter as far as loads, structural integrity, etc.

Anyone got any ideas, plans, warnings, off-the-wall advice, it would be most appreciated. I'm going to do this, but we could make it a Creeker project.

Thank you oh so much in advance!!! :)

Glenn Clabo

11-20-2006, 8:19 AM

I'd start from the beginning and work toward more complex.
Some guy named Leonardo had one idea.
http://www.stuartking.co.uk/articles/leonardo.htm

Jeff Myers

11-20-2006, 8:28 AM

Wow, what a cool project to start.
Is your shop on a slab or a crawl space?
Either way, I've seen some pix of very large home built bowl lathes
where the whole unit was concrete(rebar reinforced to be sure).
If on a slab, that'd be easy to come up with a form and pour the
base ,,,but if on a floor on joists over a crawl space,,,,that'd take
some structural reinforcment under the joists to hold the load but
something that was doable.
The reason concrete sounds like a good base is you could build the form
to your shape, round it on the spindle side so as to have good access
to the backside of bowls. You could imbed screw posts into the top of
the concrete to hold a steel plate that had your pillow blocks/spindle.
Plus, concrete is supposed to be great at damping vibrations.
You could build the base just short of turning height and you'd have
about 90" swing capability!!!!! Then concoct a stout tool rest stand
that was set atop one of those tool mobile bases so you could move
it easily. I'd get some advice on the concrete mix to make sure
you made a strong mix. These are just my thoughts, but certainly
seems doable to me and not too much work involved really.
I'm not an engineer so i may be waaaay out of line with my idea,:o
hope you get some good advice from someone who's actually done this kind of thing. Keep us posted, i'd love to see what you do come up with.

Charles E. Martin V

11-20-2006, 9:11 AM

The only thing that bothers me about this, is why did an Amish gentleman have a generator?:)

Nancy Laird

11-20-2006, 9:30 AM

The only thing that bothers me about this, is why did an Amish gentleman have a generator?:)

The Amish have used generators for a long time, to keep refrigeration for the fresh dairy goods that they sell, and for their woodworking machines. They don't use the electricity generated for "frivolous" purposes, like radio, television, computers, etc., but for their livelihood.

Nancy

Glenn Clabo

11-20-2006, 9:31 AM

Charles...It's a diesel engine that was/is used to spin a shaft...not make juice.

Glenn Clabo

11-20-2006, 9:34 AM

Nancy...John's place was electric free...until of course he spent a week or so laying cable and getting it hooked up. (Inside joke...sorry John ;) )

Frank Fusco

11-20-2006, 9:48 AM

If you do make that giant lathe, gear that sucka way-way down to just a couple rpms.

Charles E. Martin V

11-20-2006, 10:15 AM

They must have been progressive Amish. I'm right in Amish country and everything is still done by hand, and the ice house delivers ice for the ice boxes.

John Hart

11-20-2006, 10:27 AM

Nancy...John's place was electric free...until of course he spent a week or so laying cable and getting it hooked up. (Inside joke...sorry John ;) )

Ha ha ha ha hee hee Ho ho ho :D .....whew! :o Yeah...good one Glenn. For those of you who don't know....Glenn visited me before we had taken possession of the house, and I told him I would get the house wired in a DAY. He looked at me like my brain was made of oatmeal. The house took over a month and it's still not completely wired....The cable and trench to the house took a couple months....I just got power run to the north end and to the barn. The atrium STILL isn't wired. But I did get the shop first (of course :D ). We ran for two months on a generator I bought, but now we're on street power....boy, is that nice.:)

....Either way, I've seen some pix of very large home built bowl lathes
where the whole unit was concrete(rebar reinforced to be sure)....

Concrete sure sounds like a great way to go Jeff. I woulda never thought of that. Now....My first fear would be longevity. Wouldn't the vibration eventually degrade the concrete? I don't know much about it.....But I sure would prefer it.

....They don't use the electricity generated for "frivolous" purposes, like radio, television, computers, etc., but for their livelihood.....

Yup...this is fairly true for many of the Amish. Although, there are staunch traditionalists that reject all forms of modern convenience. The folks I bought the property from, are somewhere in the middle. He didn't have a generator and relied on other people to charge his cordless drill batteries...but he did have an alternator to charge 12V batteries for other stuff. The woodworking tools were driven by a 20 ft shaft under the floor with a pulley system belted to the output clutch of the engine. Pretty cool. :)

If you do make that giant lathe, gear that sucka way-way down to just a couple rpms.

I agree Frank...I want to be able to take it down to a crawl. I was thinking that I could either make the drive pulley easily interchangeable and mount up a tensioner pulley....or come up with a Reeves drive system of some sort. dunno yet. I'm wide open.

They must have been progressive Amish. I'm right in Amish country and everything is still done by hand, and the ice house delivers ice for the ice boxes..

All the families around us use ice for their refrigeration. There's an ice house about a mile away from us...for for many of them, it's two or three miles.....and they just send the kids with a pull wagon to pick up a block every couple days. Long walk for ice... I don't know of anyone on our street who have a generator. Lots of pneumatic systems though.

terry miller

11-20-2006, 3:05 PM

Charles not sure about in your area but were I grew up in Ohio the Amish have changed alot. When I was there last year going through the old stompin grounds most of them had electric which powered there workshops but not houses, had vehicles which they paid others to drive for them and some even had phones which would be set up as a community phone in sort of a phone booth. They sure have changed since the time of my youth in that area.

Frank Chaffee

11-20-2006, 3:13 PM

John,
If you really want to undertake this project you are nuts!

…And since you are nuts I am really interested in this project.

I second Jeff Meyers’ suggestion to use concrete for the base(s). I’m not qualified to say whether vibration would degrade the concrete or not, but should some wise person say that it will, it is certainly possible to isolate vibration from such a base.

If you don’t want to pay an engineer a K-note to spec rebar and mix, just use a lot of #5 or 6 bar, 2 to 3 inches from all surfaces and 1 foot or less on center, wire your bolt cage to the bars 1 or 2 feet deep, and use a five or six bag mix. If you get free professional advice from an engineer, so much the better. Vaughn McMillan would be one to contact about this.

Another approach might be to use square steel tubing (say 4” x 4” x ¼” wall) in a trussed framework with lighter members. The larger vertical tubes could be grouted to several inches below the tops after bolting to the foundation, and top plates with head and tailstocks could be either bolted or welded to those. This would allow the two drive shafts on either side of the Reeves to be supported at each end in pillow block bearings.

How about a set of rails in the floor for that thingie to rest the turning tools on?

Sounds like fun…
Frank Chaffee

Mark Pruitt

11-20-2006, 3:13 PM

....So here's what I was thinkin':

I figger I can build a lathe....
John,
Nice to know you have your priorities straight. Lathe first. Oh heck. Lathe only.:D :D :D

John Hart

11-20-2006, 4:21 PM

...If you really want to undertake this project you are nuts!....

Yeah...I'm nuts....But man! how can I resist the temptation?? Funny thing is...I like the idea of concrete but I'm a creton when it comes to concrete. I don't even know what you mean by "5 or 6 bag mix"! Hopefully my neighbor knows. I also like the 4X4 truss arrangement you mentioned. Maybe I should consider a hybrid design. I've been working a little on CAD to come up with a concrete design today...no luck so far...but I'll keep at it. After all, Mark's right....I got my priorities straight so I better sieze the day. ;)

Kenneth Hertzog

11-20-2006, 4:33 PM

Hi John
Great to hear from you. Have been wondering how the project was going. I build a lathe for the neighbor which has a VS reeves drive attached to it.
If you want I will send pictures. the last time I tried to post pics to the site it took three days to figure out. SORRY will send to your email though.
Then if you can post it thats OK. It has about 40 inches from floor to center of shaft.
ken
slippery rock, pa

John Hart

11-20-2006, 6:05 PM

Yeah...that would be great Ken! Me likes pictures. :)

Loy Hawes

11-20-2006, 6:34 PM

This guy has a custom lathe.

http://www.got.net/~burly/index.html

Maybe you can contact him and pick his brain.

Great project John. I am looking forward to the end result.

Ben Grunow

11-20-2006, 9:53 PM

Off the wall advise here.

A friend of mine had a wood splitter that he made that ran on a leather belt driven by a pulley on a PTO on his tractor (his son told me this so not sure if it is fully true but worth hearing if you are considering assembling some kind of machinery yourself). He could apparently drive his tractor to the splitter (at remote shed in woods) and loop the belt over the pulleys and start splitting fire wood. Well the belt tore one day and whipped hime right in the face knocking him out and leaving him with a bruise that made the entire left side of his face black with green trim (I did see this part but didnt ask).

So, put a shroud on any belts.

Don Orr

11-21-2006, 3:39 PM

Hey John, Sounds like a cool project to me. A couple suggestions. Do a search for Moulthrop ( I think Ed for first name or son Phil) and see if you can find the homemade lathe they made many years ago. Very interesting design and worked very well. There was a write up in FWW if I remember correctly a long time ago. A guy up here in way-northern NY state built a lathe and used a truck transmission which supposedly gives him 12 speeds forward and 4 reverse. I've seen his work several times and it is BIG. On the order of 30" or more! I'll see if I can find his info at home.

Good luck, have fun and keep us posted.

John Hart

11-21-2006, 8:03 PM

Thanks for the leads guys! I'll definitely check them out. Thanks for the advice Ben. Yep...I fully intend on making this a safe machine. Belts scare me to death. (arm eaters).

I'm also thinking that I can give it long ways....maybe 15 feet. The channel through the shop is perfectly square and I should be able to mount steel to it. That should provide a stable platform for a beefy tailstock. I would like to turn some pillars.;)

Kenneth Hertzog

11-22-2006, 9:12 PM

Hi John
I'm going to try and post pictures

who knows it just might work

ken

just tried for another 2 hours and still no pictures

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Just a note A BIG THANK YOU TO NANCY LAIRD for the pic help

Jeff Borges

11-22-2006, 10:35 PM

what a fun idea!!!
just a brief laymans explanation of concrete. 5 or 6 bag mix defines its strength. an engineer would define it by psi strength. more bags = harder concrete. As for vibration and degrading, think of all the concrete freeways, they do quite well.. (with a high PSI mix, something in the neighborhood of 3500-4500). Most of the degrading comes from freeze/thaw cycles, but if your concrete is indoors.. I would think thats not an issue. I agree the vibration damping would be wonderful, using the earth as your base..no more ballast boxes!!

I am eager to see where this goes.. what a fun idea.

John Hart

11-23-2006, 6:09 AM

Thanks for the pictures Ken! That really gives me some fundamental structural ideas. This morning, I'm going to go clean out the shop and get some good pictures of where this this needs to go. I'll post them later (unless dinner stops me) The concrete channel that held the underfloor pulley system should be able to accomodate the entire machine. We have tons of scrap steel at work that I can just throw on the truck, so I should have plenty of materials, and I'm really liking the concrete idea.

Jeff...Do you think I should mount everything to shock absorbers...or just directly to the concrete?

Gary DeWitt

11-23-2006, 11:00 AM

A few thoughts I can contribute:
There was a guy a few years back, built a large swing bowl lathe out of mostly large angle iron, I beam, and large pillow blocks, 2" IIRC, who spent nearly a year building, only to say when it was all done that the amount of effort cost more than a store-bought, but the satisfaction was greater.
There is a turner in south america with a homebuilt that uses recycled railroad track for the ways!
I've seen large printing presses installed, where several units bolt together and must be level within .001 of each other and must not vibrate much more than that so the printed colors register with each other. When Heidelberg sets one of these beasts up, they have their customer install a concrete base, FOUR FEET DEEP (THICK) with lots of rebar, and the size of the press, about 10' wide and 100+' long. An impressive amount of stabilization! The press units are bolted down to the concrete, bolts welded to the rebar and poured right into the pad, with no dampeners of any kind. Just bolted directly down, as no vibration is desired.
For your spindle, I'm wondering if there is some other macinery that could be recycled/adapted. There are surplus and salvage yards out there with some of the most amazing stuff, if you can get to it with a cutting torch and perhaps buy it by the pound.
Also, what about using a car engine crank and bearings? A small 4 cyl might work, with the rest of the works removed, or just the crank and bearings mounted in a headstock welded up out of thick sheet steel...
You don't really need a morse taper in the HS, as long as you can get a chuck attached you could use those drive centers that fit a chuck.
Here's a link to an AAW forum thread with some interesting ideas, including where to get a spindle:
http://www.woodturner.org/vbforum/showthread.php?t=940&page=1&pp=10&highlight=homemade+lathe
This was from a search of their forums for "big homemade lathe", there are other articles of interest there too.

In the end, I think you could be quite successful with this, especially if you enjoy metal work as much as you do wood turning.
Good luck, and keep us posted!

Jeff Borges

11-23-2006, 12:28 PM

As for shock absorbers, a rubber (thick and hard) or urethane donut would probably help with the beginnings of a big hunk of off balance wood.

It seems to mee that vibration is only a short term issue for two reasons: first, you should be turning anything big at a fairly slow RPM anyhow until its reasonably balanced, and second, most of the "time" spent turing is refining that balanced chunk, right? Just a thought.

Also, having the headstock on dampeners, might allow for simple adjusting when using your long ways (centering to the tailstock).

Remember to take lots of pics and video, this would be great on You Tube too! :p ;)

John Hart

11-24-2006, 8:04 AM

Well..I finally got the shop cleaned yesterday. The place was a mess before we moved in and then I made it a bigger mess while we were moving. So yesterday, I pulled up the tractor and loaded it up with all the junk, started a burn pile, and got the place swept out. Now there's nothing but tools. I'll take some pics this morning to show you the channel that I have to work with and where this monster will go. ;)

Railroad tracks???? Thats Cool Gary!!!:) Ya know..that would be perfect. They could be mounted right in the channel.

Sounds like the shock absorbers are probably not necessary. I hope to have a preliminary design to bounce off everyone later this weekend.

John Hart

11-24-2006, 9:02 AM

Ok...here's the channel in question. The last owner covered it with boards to keep from falling in and had his main pulley shaft running the length of this channel.
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He told me that I could have the main shaft but I knew he wanted it for his new house...so I gave it up.

Up against the wall is where the engine shaft comes through. I just need to install a short shaft on pillow blocks with a pulley to drive the lathe.
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Kenneth Hertzog

11-24-2006, 10:35 AM

John
For the lathe that we built the shaft came from Bailey's. You give them the size you want the they will thread the end for what ever you need and they also have the pillow blocks
hope that helps
ken
slippery rock, pa

Ken Garlock

11-24-2006, 12:38 PM

Back in 1981, 2 years after moving to Plano TX, I installed a 50 ft. self supporting ham radio tower. The tower builder, Rhone, called for a base 5.5 ft. deep and nearly 6ft. square. That was 6.6 cubic yards, and nearly 24,000 lbs of concrete.:eek: The base also required a network of #3 re-bar. The hole took me most of the summer to dig it. ( I went to college to avoid this cheap physical stuff.:cool: ) There were also three 4 ft. long legs that were install in the base. I let the concrete cure over 30 days before attempting to raise the tower....

When we moved up to the 'farm', I had the tower disassembled and trashed. But my point of this story is that that base was as good as the day it was poured, not so much as a hint of a crack. The tower was up, with some sizable antennas at the top, for 10 years with the tower continually torquing the base, even though some notable Texas spring thunderstorms. Yes, that was a lot of concrete, but it served its purpose very, very well.

Lesson learned: If you use enough concrete it will not budge. Let the concrete cure for at least 30 days, the more the better, and it will not disintegrate. ( humm, isn't disintegrate a differential?) Find out what the highway department uses for a concrete mix, that would be a good starting place.;)

Don't forget to install some BABs, Big xxx Bolts, in the wet concrete. Stop at the hardware store in Kidron, and get some one inch #6 by as long as you can get bolts. Then cut a chunk of 1/4' steel plate 3 or 4 inches square, drill a hole for the bolt, and drop the steel "washer" down to the head of the bolt. When installed, the only the bolt threads should remain out of the concrete.

Sounds like you have a fun project on the horizon.:cool:

Andrew Harkin

11-24-2006, 3:12 PM

Are you thinking of a direct drive for the lathe only, or something like the old overhead belt systems in older shops? I grew up working in my dad's old shop that had a pretty massive overhead belt system, and the remainder of the shop is still running with overheads at it's new location. It still has a enormous metal lathe and large grinder running off it.

If you're thinking that, I could take some pictures of specific parts, specifically how you change gears on the lathe.

John Hart

11-24-2006, 6:05 PM

Don't forget to install some BABs, Big xxx Bolts, in the wet concrete. Stop at the hardware store in Kidron, and get some one inch #6 by as long as you can get bolts. Then cut a chunk of 1/4' steel plate 3 or 4 inches square, drill a hole for the bolt, and drop the steel "washer" down to the head of the bolt. When installed, the only the bolt threads should remain out of the concrete....

Sounds like a good plan. That way, I have control over the initial slab for mounting anything. I will follow this advice. Thanks Ken.:)

For the lathe that we built the shaft came from Bailey's. You give them the size you want the they will thread the end for what ever you need and they also have the pillow blocks.

Great! Thanks Ken. I was definitely looking for a source that I could get some threads done. Got someone local for the pillow blocks though. They've been real helpful during my move so I gotta throw them some business.

If you're thinking that, I could take some pictures of specific parts, specifically how you change gears on the lathe.

That would be great Andrew. I won't be doing an overhead belt system, but would be very interested in seeing the pics anyway.....A little help from the past and a little innovation on my part and we'll have a winner! :)

Thanks everyone!

Andrew Harkin

11-24-2006, 8:49 PM

I'm going up there again on Sunday to do some sawing, so I'll take some pictures of things while I'm there. Of course, if I'd have noticed that there were 2 pages to the thread already when I posted the first time, I wouldn't have had to ask. :)

David Klug

11-24-2006, 10:50 PM

Yeah...I'm nuts....But man! how can I resist the temptation?? Funny thing is...I like the idea of concrete but I'm a creton when it comes to concrete. I don't even know what you mean by "5 or 6 bag mix"! Hopefully my neighbor knows. I also like the 4X4 truss arrangement you mentioned. Maybe I should consider a hybrid design. I've been working a little on CAD to come up with a concrete design today...no luck so far...but I'll keep at it. After all, Mark's right....I got my priorities straight so I better sieze the day. ;)

With a 5 or 6 bag mix you should have a foundation strong enough to turn a whole tree.

DK

Charles McKinley

11-24-2006, 11:31 PM

Gary DeWitt

11-25-2006, 1:42 AM

To add to Ken Garlock's post re: concrete, if you have ever seen the highway dept. pour a freeway, you may have noticed the concrete covered in old carpets which they keep wet for a certain period of days/weeks after the pour. This is because the strongest concrete is cured wet. The very strongest is cured under water, such as footings for bridges. You might want to look up the optimum period of time to keep your concrete wet for greatest strength...

John Hart

11-25-2006, 5:49 AM

Hi John,

How are you going to get it stopped if something goes wrong? I love the thought of making a big lather but a used 3 hp 3 phase motor and a VFD sound a lot safer than getting a 26 (?) horse diesel disconnected.

This looks like it will be an interesting project.

On another note you and several others are not far from me and I would like to get togeather some time.

Thanks Charles. Well one of the things the Amish do when they convert Electrical machines to pulley-driven, is they replace the electrical switch with a pneumatic switch. I don't know how it works yet, but it does the work to engage and disengage the drive pulley to the machine. I've used it on his table saw and power down is just as fast as an electric kill switch.

Yup...Creeker visits are a treat for sure!:)

To add to Ken Garlock's post re: concrete, if you have ever seen the highway dept. pour a freeway, you may have noticed the concrete covered in old carpets which they keep wet for a certain period of days/weeks after the pour. This is because the strongest concrete is cured wet. The very strongest is cured under water, such as footings for bridges. You might want to look up the optimum period of time to keep your concrete wet for greatest strength...

I saw this on the discovery channel. The heat generated from curing can actually weaken the concrete, so if you cool it with water, it makes it stronger.

Ken Garlock

11-25-2006, 11:45 AM

John, I couldn't remember the name of the hardware store in Kidron, so googled it. It is Lehmans Hardware (http://www.lehmans.com/). The web site is interesting to browse even for us city boys.;)

Check out the BIG copper kettles like your grandparents used to scald hogs and make apple butter. (not at the same time:) ) I have my maternal grandparents kettle from back around 1910.

Andrew Harkin

11-27-2006, 11:56 AM

My camera died halfway through our milling, so I didn't get any pictures of the lathe. From the sounds of what you're doing, I'm not sure it would have been of much use anyways. Good luck, and I'd love to see pictures of the progress once you get going on it.

Jon Shively

12-01-2006, 10:58 PM

John, I was looking through my farm paper tonight and saw an ad you might be interested in.

From, "THE FARMER'S EXCHANGE" classifieds.

Older Hendey metal lathe, 14" swing X 30" between centers, quick change thread speeds, drive-all trans., flat belt drive. Good working condition! Ph. 574-862-2496. Leave message.

Originally I was real excited John as I had thought I found you a belt driven wood lathe. Only when copying word for word the ad did I realize it is a metal lathe. Don't know if you are interested or not or if wood projects can be turned on a metal lathe. Also don't know how expensive or cheap this lathe can be purchased for.

I am located in North West Indiana, an hour North of Purdue University (West Lafayette, Indiana). This paper comes out of New Paris, Indiana. This lathe is probably in the Topeka, Shipshewanna area most likely. Don't know where in Ohio you are located, if you are interested and it is near me, would get you some pictures and do what I could for you. Sorry it wasn't a wood lathe.

John Hart

12-02-2006, 6:15 AM

Thanks Jon!

Ya know...for what I'm trying to do...a metal lathe would work just as well as a wood lathe because I would separate its fundamental parts and remount them in my larger configuration. The total span for the ways will end up being a little over 9 feet so I would mount the headstock at one end and mount the tail to the track. Haven't worked out the details yet...but if that lathe was cheap (And I mean REAL cheap) I would be willing to drive to Indiana to get it. Any pics would be most appreciated. I am strapped for cash big time right now...so I might not even be able to pull it off for a month or so.

Thanks again! :)

Jeff Borges

12-02-2006, 11:43 AM

9 feet??? Wow. you could turn front porch columns in one shot!!!

or pencil posts for beds......hmmmmm.. would you want to make me a shaker flag post??:rolleyes:

John Hart

12-02-2006, 12:09 PM

Yeah Jeff....My objective with this project is to be able to turn large vases and hollow forms and also have the capability to turn columns up to about 8 feet. I figure if I have the horsepower...might as well use it.;)

John Hart

01-21-2007, 2:04 PM

Got some pieces on Friday and today.

The rails were Friday's haul. They are 300 pounds a piece and it took three guys to get them in the truck.
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I was able to unload them myself with not much trouble.

One of the End pieces was today's little project. It weighs in at 500-600 pounds and required a towmotor. One of the guys at work offered to help me out in that department.
First...it had to be dragged out of the tangled mess of the boneyard
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then loaded on the truck
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I could only take the one piece today because my lil' pickem-up would probably die during the 50 mile trip to the house.

So, I got home, tore off the tailgate and nearly busted a gut getting it to move...but the bedliner was slushy icy stuff, so I managed to get it to fall off the bed. Surprisingly enough, I did not personally get damaged in this operation.;)

But after it was on the floor, I couldn't move it. Nuts!!!!:(
So I got out some of those ratchety strap down thingies, hooked it up to a support beam and dragged the end piece, 10 feet across the floor....one inch at a time. (using two fingers!:) )
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So here they sit....Waiting for the other two pieces. I may start stripping these to get ready for prime and paint.
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Ken Fitzgerald

01-21-2007, 2:40 PM

You really are going to do this? John...you sure have a lot more determination than I! Good luck! Keep us posted!

John Hart

01-21-2007, 3:04 PM

Yup...really am. It may take me 6 months, but I'm gonna do it and it's going to be a Scrapway!

Ken Fitzgerald

01-21-2007, 3:12 PM

Paint it white...or somebody we know will whine a lot!

Andy Hoyt

01-21-2007, 3:24 PM

Waa waa waa

Bill Wyko

01-22-2007, 3:53 PM

Well, being a deisel I'm sure it has torque up the wazoo. My diesel ram has over 1000lbs of torque with minor mods. Diesels are made to load up so you should be able to turn a tree trunk if you get the right speed.:D

Glenn Clabo

01-22-2007, 4:34 PM

Don't tempt him with the tree trunk idea...it is John "impossible just takes a little larger" Hart ya know. I'm sure he's already picked out his first tree in the back forty...eh John?

Paul Engle

01-22-2007, 4:41 PM

John, on the gear reduction, a 13 speed truck trans works very well...The hydrualic shop test stand I work on in the ship yard at Long Beach Ca we used a 5 speed truck tranny coupled to a 200 hp electric motor from one of the ships Fire fighting supply pumps , and one of the test stands had a brownie attached 5/3 speed , thats some pretty low greaing and you could run that thru a 2 speed differential and go even lower and still not loose any torque . Granted you would have to get very close in the coupling and use air to change ranges but boy you could slow it down and the thing would handle oh say 80,000 lbs no sweat. with the right carrage you could put a whole tree on it and have lots to turn :eek: . Plenty of wrecking yards in the area , you could hook the diesel to the tranny by belt or chain or direct drive coupling even the tranny from a say C60 would give you 4 speeds or use one with pto and run it hydrualicly , 1st thru 4th Generation Vickers stuff is not that expensive , and a tilt / swash plate A unit would give you infinite speed control ,just don't spring a leak ...ugh been there done that .

John Hart

01-22-2007, 6:50 PM

Yeah...why stop at just the trunk. Lets go for the whole tree!:D I'm sure the engine can handle what I intend to throw at it. Picture 4 amish guys running a powermatic planer, TS, and jointer simultaneously while running a 5 HP compressor...all off the same engine. It might be ugly but it sure knows how to go round and round.

Paul...I've given some thought to the transmission idea and I'm very open to the idea. You really think I can get a scrap tranny that'll work? I gotta hook up a kill mechanism though. I want this thing to stop when I get skeered.:)

Just down the road a piece, there's a bunch of trees that someone is clearing. Huge stumps. easy pickin's. There's also a sawmill nearby...little family operation. I walked around there on Sunday and they throw the burls away in a big pile.....Burls that are 2-3 feet in diameter. Gotta go talk to that guy.

Christopher Zona

01-23-2007, 12:40 AM

Damp out the vibrations. It could get really ugly if your lathe hits your building's natural frequency.

Christopher Zona

01-24-2007, 12:10 AM

I was thinking more about this today. It’s a bit long too.

Wow, where to begin? You mentioned 1800 rpm, is that at idle, or is the idle lower? Something to consider here is the engine’s own torsional vibrations, which typically are worse at idle. Just watch a tensioner on the accessory drive of a car. An engine doesn’t run at a constant rpm, but rather in a range, say ± 50 rpm due the cylinder firing.

The front end accessory drive is excited because of the inertia of the alternator rotor. Without getting too technical, the engine rpm and the alternator rpm can be and usually are out of phase with each other. What we design, where I work, to eliminate this is to allow the alternator to decouple from the system momentarily. This allows the alternator to speed up and slow down as required. Did I loose you?

Where am I going with this? The diesel’s own torsional vibrations can end up transmitting through whatever drive system you make. They may or may not magnify when you get to the spindle.

I think it may have been mentioned, but if you're using auto wrecker stuff, it would be a great way to solve a few problems.

Use the PTO from the diesel into a tranny, from the tranny to a belt drive to the head stock shaft. Use some sort of spring styled automatic tensioner like those found on a car. A tensioner usually will have some method of torsional damping in it. This will help to reduce the effects of the engine torsionals.

Plus, a tranny can do two other things (1) give a speed range while having the diesel at a constant rpm and (2) it will allow a means to ramp up the turning piece speed instead of giving the system a shock load. This will ease the torque applied to the spindle on start-up.

I imagine that a hydraulic master cylinder could be hooked up some how and then attach a disc and caliper to the spindle shaft.

Sorry that I was so long winded, but my mind was racing today about this.

Bill Boehme

01-24-2007, 12:37 AM

Use the PTO from the diesel into a tranny, from the tranny to a belt drive to the head stock shaft. Use some sort of spring styled automatic tensioner ...... tranny can do two other things (1) give a speed range while having the diesel at a constant rpm and (2) it will allow a means to ramp up the turning piece speed instead of giving the system a shock load. This will ease the torque applied to the spindle on start-up.
I do hope that you guys realize that this may take woodturning into an entirely unanticipated direction -- I can see it now -- at some AAW Symposium in the future, immediately following the keynote address, the voice crackling on the public address system announces over a hushed crowd, "Gentlemen, start your lathes"! That can only lead to the obvious next step -- tailgate parties at the Symposium.

Bill

Gary DeWitt

01-24-2007, 2:13 AM

What about air brakes from a semi? Seems they would be safest if you could figure out a way to shut off the power so as to not wreck some part of the "drive train" when emergency stopping. While we're being automotive, how about a pedal operated clutch? Linkage would be interesting, perhaps you could rig it with a rod near the floor, paralell to the ways, with a pedal that would slide along the rod making it possible to put the clutch in easy reach wherever you were turning at the time. On the other hand, perhaps you don't want to be anywhere near your spinning tree when you need to stop it turning!!
Glad to see this thread reactivated, this is fun!

John Hart

01-24-2007, 6:25 AM

Here's a little information about the current setup with the engine. This 22 HP diesel has a clutch that is currently operated by a lever with linkage out to the shop. I bring the engine up to operating speed of 1800 RPM, then engage the clutch. Idle is somewhere around 700. The output shaft of the clutch drives a 6" 3-groove pulley, that drives the line shaft out to the shop. This line shaft used to drive all the woodworking equipment in the shop...but now only drives the air compressor and a 10 KW Generator on demand. Originally, I thought that I could engage a tensioner pulley to drive a Reeves-style pulley for ramp up and speed control. I also figgered that I could use a pneumatic 1/4 turn actuator to disengage the clutch in an emergency. This is the total depth of my thoughts on this subject so far.
The transmission idea is intriquing, but I have no money to sink into the project. (all funds must go to the renovation of the new house;) ) So, innovation must win the day here.

As far as speed stability, the generator has been my greatest source of data on this. When the generator is operating under a nominal load, everything is nice and steady. When demand from the house increases, like when the water heater kicks in and the microwave turns on and someone is blowdrying their hair, the generator puts a huge load on the engine (nearly 20 HP required sometimes). When this occurs, there is a total speed loss of 50 rpm at the generator driven pulley. I run some wave-form sensitive equipment as well, and it functions nicely with the generator, so that is a nice indicator of the frequency fluctuations. When I was monitoring heavily, I noted a 55 to 65 Hz fluctuation...all dependent on devices in the house randomly varying the load.

Vibration damping is of huge concern to me. Considering the mounting method of these structures and the high over-hung load of the wood on the spindle, I'm going to need some reinforcement. I fear that a rigid strut might come loose from it's mount due to vibration and stress, so I'm wondering about air-shocks for dampening at the top of the headstock.

John Hart

01-24-2007, 6:27 AM

John Hart

01-24-2007, 6:28 AM

I do hope that you guys realize that this may take woodturning into an entirely unanticipated direction -- I can see it now -- at some AAW Symposium in the future, immediately following the keynote address, the voice crackling on the public address system announces over a hushed crowd, "Gentlemen, start your lathes"! That can only lead to the obvious next step -- tailgate parties at the Symposium.

Bill

The tailgate parties have already begun. No facepaint as yet....but it's early.:)

Glenn Clabo

01-24-2007, 7:45 AM

John,
Just to keep the juices flowing...
There are some surplus shock mounts out there...and may be around you at the local junk yards in the form of engine mounts. Here is one that gives you two options...http://www.surplussales.com/Cab-RacksHardware/shockmount.html
The "Vibration Pads" may (I don't know the loads you are figuring on) work like they do here... http://www.vibrodynamics.com/english/products/hammers.htm#MRM
Or the "Giant Shock Mount" could work if you can figure it into the mounting scheme. They are rated for 550lbs each.

John Hart

01-24-2007, 10:31 AM

Great links Glenn. Thank you. Now I have to do some calculations. Here's the dilemma: (And I'm going to talk in terms of centrifugal force, even though the experts say that centrifugal force is not a real force, it still can be calculated and it's easier to understand than centripetal force)

The equation m w**2r, describes the force that is exerted outward, from center, offered by a spinning object. m = mass, w = Angular Velocity in Radians per second, and r = radius of the object.

We also have to consider the aspect of the wood itself. If the world were perfect, then a piece of wood would have equally distributed densities and it would spin as a balanced mass, exerting force equally in all directions, thereby running smoothly. But, in our not so perfect world, a 100 pound piece of wood...perfectly round...will have unequal distribution of density and cause the lathe to wobble. If there was, say, a 5% disparity on one side, this would equate to a 5 pound weight, swinging on a string, (the diameter of our 100 pound piece of wood.)

Applying the formula at 200 RPM and 20" diameter wood, we get... 5 pounds * (20.94 Radians/sec)**2 * 10" = 21,924 lbs of radial force.

at 100 RPM the force is 5483 lbs
at 50 RPM, the force is 261 lbs
at 25 RPM, the force is 130 lbs

200 Rpm seems a tad out of the question, but only if the imbalance/weight exists. As the piece is turned, the disparity is decreased, and the weight is reduced, then it can be cranked up. The necessity to do this calculation...even roughly, is going to be a high priority methinks. Especially since, I'm going to have a 5 foot swing:eek: .

So.....what shock absorber will work? In Glenn's link, there's one rated at 500 pounds, and the headstock weighs more than that....but then, I would use more than one, and equally distribute them. Or, are you thinking, just for the support members?

No...I don't intend to put a 5 foot diameter piece of wood on it....But I think I need to design for the possibility.;)

Bob Hallowell

01-24-2007, 11:36 AM

John,
While your at it you might as well make a mighty big bandsaw with that motor to round you blanks aliite before you turn them:D

Bob

John Hart

01-24-2007, 12:24 PM

John,
While your at it you might as well make a mighty big bandsaw with that motor to round you blanks aliite before you turn them:D

Bob

That's one that I did get figured out.:) I've designed a chainsaw cradle that mounts to the ways.

Mount the piece of wood to the headstock, and using a handcrank, rotate the wood into the chainsaw. It'll take several passes and kind of a slow process.....But a heck of a lot better than dealing with a 200 pound gnarly chunk with a roughing gouge!!

And I already have the handcrank!:)

Here's a conceptual drawing I just did in my office, since my cad drawings are in my other computer. Please pardon the presence of the other picture. I didn't want to erase it because it is vitally important to another project.