Bandsaw - Delta format or Rikon/Craftsman?

[John Horrigan]

Good morning all. I'm a newbie here, referred from another forum and I have to say I've already found a lot to like in this place.

I'm hoping to tap into your knowledge this morning. I've been slowly working through the justification toward a bandsaw, almost at the point of making the purchase of a 14" tool.

In looking at what's out there, it seems to me there are two fundamental ways I can go - traditional cast-iron frame saws on the Delta format (in Canada that includes Delta, Ridgid, King, General, Canwood, Busy Bee and some others), or I can look toward steel frame saws (Rikon, Sears Craftsman, also General and Busy Bee). Although Rikon is not directly available in Canada, Sears is now selling the Rikon-produced 14" version, the same saw as the US Craftsman 22401.

I had a chance to look at the Craftsman model on the weekend and it looks like it might do the trick. I have some work to do on the pricing, as the Canadian pricing is higher than the US by nearly triple the exchange rate, but this may improve with upcoming sales, I'm told. If it goes where I think it's going, I can get a 1 HP, 8" re-saw (non-extendable) steel frame saw with cast-iron wheels for less money than a cast-iron, 6" re-saw (extendable) with aluminum wheels. My jointer is and will remain at 6".

There are some drawbacks I see in the Craftsman, like the fence and a non-standard blade that may be troublesome to replace in the future.

To make a long story short, I would like to hear what you folks have to say on the matter. What has been the experience with the Craftsman saw? Are the cast-iron bodies still a better choice? If a steel frame is good but perhaps the Craftsman is not a good example for whatever reason, what good alternatives are out there?

Thanks everyone.

Cheers
-John

[glenn bradley]

There's been some speculation as to whether the C-man is a Rikon (that's what I thought) or a Palmgren (their B.S. looks even more like it than the Rikon) but, either way. Blades can be made any size you want so that's pretty much a non-issue.

I think it was the recent issue of American Woodworker that just did a 14" B.S. bake-off. Very informative. Sears was a best-buy but got dinged for no quick blade tension release (the next B.S. i buy will have to have that to even be a contender).

Rikon's new tricked-out 13" resaw guy took the top slot even though it was reported to have more table flex than others. Flex was measured "at the outer corner" and the Rikon's table was the largest. I don't know it they took that into consideration or not. On the upside you'll get LOTs of opinions here from folks that have the machines which really helps.

Ooops. It was Popular Woodworking issue #158 and only steel frame saws were compared so no help on a CI to steel frame comparison. Also, pay atention to the trunnion design when making your decision ;-)

[John Horrigan]

Hi Glenn. I discovered the Craftsman was a Rikon when speaking with them directly about trying to get their products in Canada. They even provided me with the Canadian Sears part number (not 22401, but 27960 for us Canucks - I think the numbering change is what added to all the extra cost:rolleyes: )

I really like the Rikon 14" Deluxe and have read the review article you mention. There is just no way to buy that thing in Canada at the moment, so I'd have to pick it up at the border and haul it home, hoping I don't have any assembly or parts issues once I got here.

Good news about the bandsaw blade. One tick off the list.

Thanks
-John

[Brad Townsend]

I've had the Craftsman for better part of a year now and am very happy with it. Yeah, the fence is no prize (I put a Kreg on it), and I wish it had a quick tension release, but for the price, something was going to be left out. As mentioned, the blade length is not an issue. I ordered blades from Suffolk Machinery. Good blades at a good price delivered in less than a week. The saw runs smooth and cuts beautifully. My bandsaw experience is limited, so I'm claiming it's your best choice, but certainly a good one. If I were making the purchase now, I would give the Rikon a long look for the quick release and more powerful motor, but still am not sure I would spend the additional $300 (U.S.). Obviously, the Rikon is a more difficult option for you.

[glenn bradley]

John, I read that you were in Canada in the original post and just brain-faded right past it. I appreciate the challenge of seeing these tools reviewed and then not being able to get them just becasue your north of some line on a map.

Thanks for the clarification on the Rikon info. The folks at Suffolk (Makers of the Timberwolf blades a lot of folks like, 1-800-234-7297) are very helpful and friendly. I put one of thier blades on an old Sears 12" Tilt-head B.S. and it cuts like a real saw. Very impressed with these blades which can be ordered just about any size you like. Hope they ship to Canada.

[John Horrigan]

Glenn, that's good feedback on the blades. I've heard a lot of positive about Suffolk's products. Nice to know they are available in non-standard sizes too.

I also noted your comments on the trunnions. I suspect the Craftsman is pot metal, just looking at them, (they also seem pretty narrow, but still solid) but I'll have to check.

Thanks again for your help. Much appreciated.

-John

[Steve Sawyer]

John - I just (like a few days ago) purchased the Craftsman after a similar lengthy consideration of all the options. I'm not convinced that the Craftsman is made by Rikon, but I will say that the Craftsman, which this side of the border is priced about the same as the Rikon standard 14", has several of the features of the $300 more expensive Rikon Deluxe 14" model - cast iron wheels, tracking window, light (won't mention the fence :)) plus the compromise 8" resaw height (vs the Deluxe's 13").

I tried to find it again without success, but one of the woodworking mags has an article on steel-frame saws that's available online, and indicated that they're generally superior to cast iron in terms of rigidity. you might be able to find it.

Having assembled and played with this unit a bit, I'm not (yet) experiencing any buyer's regret. Not sure about the ball bearing blade guides - so many seem to think that hardwood/steel/ceramic/cool-block guides are the way to go, but it looks like I could easily change them if necessary.

The assembly was relatively painless, though the instructions left something to be desired. My 14-year-old chastised me for reading them. "I just follow the pictures, Dad!", and in this case he was exactly right. The instructions left out a couple of steps, and actually directed you to use the wrong fasteners on the storage base which interfered with the door closure. Had I just looked at the pictures, I would have saved myself a bit of dis- and re-assembly. Some of the bolt holes on the sheet metal on the stand were a bit mis-aligned; easily corrected with a 1/4" drill bit run through them. However, I've read of much worse (holes missing or inches out of place) on other brands of woodworking machinery including Delta, Jet, Grizzly, Ridgid...

The only complaint I have so far with it is that the trunnion (which I'm pretty sure is cast aluminum, not "pot metal") is far enough off-center that the considerable weight of that big table causes it to sag toward the blade when the adjustment bolt is loosened. What this means is that to keep the table perpindicular to the blade when adjusting the bevel you have to make sure that you either lift the front edge, or push down on the back edge to make sure that the table is seated squarely in the trunnion before tightening the adjusting bolt, then re-check the fore-and-aft squareness again.

I'll echo the coments of others that the "non-standard" blade length isn't an issue. You can either cut and braze a longer blade to length (Woodcraft sells a brazing kit for $35 US), or do business with a supplier that will cut them to custom lengths (extremely common). Even Woodcraft via mail-order offers this service on their house-branded blades, but not the Timberwolf. However, Suffolk Machinery (the manufacturer of the Timberwolf blades) apparently sells all blades cut-to-order, and at a very good price. I just ordered 5 blades to get their year-end 20% discount and paid a total of $75 US.

Finally, expect on the Craftsman (and probably any other European-style steel-frame saw) that if you mount it on a mobile base you'll probably have to shim it up using 3/4" stock to allow the storage cabinet door to clear the edge of the mobile base.

Hope this helps.

[John Horrigan]

Steve, that's excellent feedback. I certainly appreciate the set-up advice. Good comment on the shimming under the base, as that's exactly where I was headed.

How do you find the table height once it's mounted on the plywood and base? From the magazine review (which I've found and read, thanks also), it looks like the table is toward the high end of the range.

Also good news about the trunnions. All in all, it sounds like a good buy, now to wait for the price to come into range...

Thanks again.
-John

[Steve Sawyer]

How do you find the table height once it's mounted on the plywood and base?
The base and the shims probably bring it up about 1 3/4". I'm not tall (5'8"), but it seems a nice height for me - about mid-torso. I can easily work on it without stooping or bending over which could get tiresome when working on something like a bandsaw box where you might be standing at the machine for an extended period. It might be a little higher than ideal for resawing a long board, but I'd imagine that it will just be a matter of getting things setup properly w/a featherboard or some such and getting a convenient grip.

I too waited out the sales. Down here they regularly (about every four weeks or so it seems) go on sale for $429 U.S. That's what they're going for right now, through Saturday.

[Ron Blaise]

John:
I believe you mentioned a 14", I can't comment on Rikon's 14" but I do own an 18" Rikon (traded up from a Craftsman 12"). I love that saw! And don't know how I got by with my baby 12' for so long. If I were to give you any advice, it would be buy the best you can, so that you won't have to upgrade later. Whatever you decide to purchase, get good blades for it. Suffolk Machinery (TimberWolf) is hard to beat and really makes a saw perform as it should. I usually get my blades from them in 3 to 4 days. They have excellent recommendations for your saw model and great service too. Don't e-mail, they only respond to phone calls. As for Sears, well, I just don't like their service. If it were me, I'd buy a Rikon not a Sears clone. Wood Craft has Rikon and I worked out a good deal on mine from them and they have excellent service. Just my 2 cents.

[Steve Sawyer]

I'd buy a Rikon not a Sears clone.
I don't think that you can fairly refer to this as a "clone", Ron. There are enough actual improvements over the basic Rikon 14" (not your Big Guy) that it's really a different saw. I wouldn't be above accusing the Craftsman supplier and Rikon from purchasing components from the same source which would account for some of the similarities, but any European-style steel-frame bandsaw is going to look superficially similar.

I agree with buying so as to avoid having to upgrade later (at least on major purchases), and very carefully compared the two machines both from a construction and features standpoint. Since there was no price differential of any significance ($20 to be exact), I don't feel that I've "cheaped out" on this purchase. The factors that really sold me were the additional 2" of resaw height, and the cast-iron wheels. Neither of which I believe contributed significantly to the production cost, but contribute greatly (for me) to the saw's utility.

[Brad Townsend]

I don't feel that I've "cheaped out" on this purchase. The factors that really sold me were the additional 2" of resaw height, and the cast-iron wheels. Neither of which I believe contributed significantly to the production cost, but contribute greatly (for me) to the saw's utility.
Don't forget the worklight that illuminates the backside of the workpiece.:rolleyes: (I drilled a hole in the column and remounted mine on the front, where it will do some good.)

[Steve Sawyer]

Don't forget the worklight that illuminates the backside of the workpiece.
You notice I didn't mention it as a selling point! Notice too that the Rikon Deluxe 14" offers exactly the same "feature". What's with these folks? I've managed to twist mine around to get it pointing somewhat from the working side of the saw.

(I drilled a hole in the column and remounted mine on the front, where it will do some good.)
I was wondering if I that might be possible. Any issues to be aware of in doing this? It'd also be neat to have it wired into the hot side of the power switch so you wouldn't have to take up two sockets in the wall outlet or be forced to use a "Q" plug.

[Steve Canada]

John,

I recently went through thte same decision making process. Here was my rational, but first let me disclaim: I tend to splurge for more expensive tools, as I'm the type of person who likes to get the right tools first. This often means I spent more then I should, but over time, spend less on replacements and upgrades.

Delta - Was considering th 14" models for the extention ability. have read some people have alignment issues after the extentions are installed. (drill holes don't quite line up)

Ridgid - 3/4hp ruled this out, but it's still a nice saw.

King - Didn't strike me as quality saws, King is kind of lower end up here, and out west, harder to get.

General - Was in the top choices, many options in 14"

Canwood - I find thier machines to not meet my standards, plus I always find them for sale, which make me wonder. They seem like low buck knock offs.

Busy Bee/Craftex and some others) - I find these to be cheaper made machines.

Craftsman - Everyone I talk to tells me these tools arn't what they used to be, but I admitedly have never bought a Craftsman tool.

In the end I decided to go with this saw from General: 90-150
http://www.general.ca/machines/gi/90/90150.jpg

I decided the probability of me needed more then an 8" resaw was low. It has a better fence then the 90-125 (cast + riser), and also a 4" dist port plus internal impeller on the port. I don't like the 2.5" ports on the other models, as well as other manufacturers. I bought it at the woodshow and got a free mobile base.

I have yet to assemble it, but will this weekend. By the way, House of tools is selling the 90-100 for 599$ CA this month, which is a pretty good deal.
http://www.general.ca/machines/gi/90/90100.jpg

Hope this helps.

[Brad Townsend]

I was wondering if I that might be possible. Any issues to be aware of in doing this? It'd also be neat to have it wired into the hot side of the power switch so you wouldn't have to take up two sockets in the wall outlet or be forced to use a "Q" plug. You can get at everything pretty easily by removing the main power switch. The only issue is being careful not to drop any of the hardware down the column.:D If you do, it's going to be awfully hard to fish out. I disconnected the leads going to the light and pulled the ends outside the column through the switch opening before removing the jam nut from the inside that holds the light on. Since the nut also has to go over the wires, that way I knew I wouldn't lose it down the inside of the column. When I put the light back in, I slipped the jam nut and washer over the wires and put a loose knot in the end so they wouldn't fall off. I forget what size hole it is, but I drilled it about an inch over the switch opening. The whole procedure took about fifteen minutes. If you really want to get fancy, you can get a plastic grommet at the hardware store to plug the vacant hole on the backside. Not sure about wiring to the power switch, but can't see where it wouldn't work.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v238/btownsend/DSCN0915.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v238/btownsend/DSCN0917.jpg

[Ron Blaise]

I don't think that you can fairly refer to this as a "clone", Ron. There are enough actual improvements over the basic Rikon 14" (not your Big Guy) that it's really a different saw. I wouldn't be above accusing the Craftsman supplier and Rikon from purchasing components from the same source which would account for some of the similarities, but any European-style steel-frame bandsaw is going to look superficially similar.

I agree with buying so as to avoid having to upgrade later (at least on major purchases), and very carefully compared the two machines both from a construction and features standpoint. Since there was no price differential of any significance ($20 to be exact), I don't feel that I've "cheeped out" on this purchase. The factors that really sold me were the additional 2" of resew height, and the cast-iron wheels. Neither of which I believe contributed significantly to the production cost, but contribute greatly (for me) to the saw's utility.

I hope you didn't think I was cutting down any decision you go with Steve, that wasn't my intent. You'll buy whatever is best for you. AS for clones, many of the different brands are mfg in only a few Taiwanese plants so it's no surprise that they are similar. As I said, I've just had too many bad experience's with Sears, I sincerely hope you don't.

[Steve Canada]

AS for clones, many of the different brands are mfg in only a few Taiwanese plants so it's no surprise that they are similar.


On that note, whether it's true or not, all manufacturers claim to have their own engineers and quality control people at these factories to ensure compliance with THIER standards.

Many reatilers have told me, even though any tool might be manufactured at the same plant, that tool is manufactured to different tolerances and from different grades of materials for varying brands.

Food for thought.

[Scott Vigder]

I bought the Craftsman (not a big Sears fan) based on need (no working bandsaw) and price. For a little under $450, this one is hard to beat.
Yes, the setup directions were clearly written by a thousand monkeys typing a thousand pages. The pix were mildly better.
Adjusting the blade guides was a dream. Put them in place and tighten them and they stay where you put them. Wow. The blade tracking adjsutment is effortless, and the window to see into the housing is a big plus.
My only complaint is the fence tends to ride on the table when moving back and forth, so you'll need to add a teensy wooden shim to the base of the fence at the far end to keep it from scraping the table.
I just don't see a 14" saw out there within $250 that competes.

[Steve Sawyer]

I hope you didn't think I was cutting down any decision you go with Steve, that wasn't my intent
I understood your intentions Ron - no offense taken as I knew that you intended none. I just honestly don't think the Craftsman is a clone, but I can see how it could be mistaken as one.

[Steve Sawyer]

Brad - thanks! Boy, pictures and everythin' :) !!

[John Horrigan]

Holy smokes. I knew I had come to a good place for know-how, but this thread is incredible.

Thanks a million guys.

-John

[Andy Fox]

I tried the Craftsman 14" steel frame bandsaw earlier this year. (A search will reveal some of my difficulties.) I had to tap all of the holes in the table myself, and the thrust bearings failed on me and were spraying grease. Many others have had better luck than me with this saw though. I returned it and paid twice the price for a Delta X5 that's better in a few categories, but not twice as good. The Delta upper and lower guides are better, sturdier, and much easier to adjust.

If I had to make the choice again, I'm still not sure which one I would choose. For the price, the Craftsman is a good deal, and you can always get good bearings from a local bearing dealer if they fail.

[Chuck Wood]

John,

I purchased a Rikon 10-325 BS 3 weeks ago! And I love it! No problem setting up, and has all the cool extras.
I purchased mine from Woodcraft in Knoxville, TN. They had their annual woodworking show going on and they were taking $50.00 off the price plus extending the warranty an extra year. If you bought it at the show. They Even through in the mobile base.
The VP of Rikon was at the show and we talked for some time. He said that the blade that came with the saw was not the best quality available. And to replace it with a good quality blade like Timberwolf. :)

[Chuck Saunders]

I am looking for a 14" bandsaw (delivered under $500) and am considering the Craftsman, Rikon, Grizzly, and after visiting Woodcraft today Jet. I can say that except for the wheels and fence the Craftsman and the Rikon are the same. Now I guess I have to decide between european vs cast iron.
Chuck

[Al Willits]

fwiw, the Delta 14" saw I have has a 4" DC port, and the 6" extension mounted with no problems, and with the timberwold 3/4" resaw blades I've been doing up to about 7 1/2" wide oak boards today, I think that's probably pushing the saw a bit, but it does a nice job considering.
It does have the quick tension release also, and I added the cool blocks.

If I did it again, I might opt for a bit more horsepower though, another 1/4hp or so, would be nice.

Al

[Steve Sawyer]

I can say that except for the wheels and fence the Craftsman and the Rikon are the same.

I purchased the Craftsman about a six weeks ago, and I can tell you it's an outstanding piece of machinery, and actually much better than the Rikon IMO.

First is the 8" resaw height.

Then there are the ball bearing lower guides, the light, the window for checking the tracking - all features similar to the Rikon 14" deluxe that goes for about $300 more.

[Paul Rubas]

For a smaller bandsaw, the General (Canadian made) 15" saw is hands down the best machine out there. It is expensive, but you'll only buy it once and it will outlast you if you take care of it. Michael Fortune has one and seems to love it as well. Good luck!

[Don Bullock]

Fantastic thread. I was, and now still am, planning to buy the Chraftsman 14" saw. It seems like the best saw for the money at this time.

The information on moving the light is priceless. Thank you for that information. I'll be doing that as soon after I get the saw as possible.

I know that for some here the Chraftsman isn't enough saw. I'm just a part time hibbiest, that has a very limited budget. Springing $1,000 for a bandsaw just isn't my budget, nor do I think I can justify that much for one when I have so many other tools that I'll need to buy in the next few years. From what I read in the magazine article mentioned here and the comments and reviews I've read it seems this is a good buy for me.

Thank you to all for your contributions to this thread. The Craftsman 14" is going to be my Christmas present to me.

[David Marcus Brown]

I did a lot of research today and I'm betting that the Craftsman manufacturer is a German firm called Bernardo. Their saw is the same as the Craftsman, down to the resaw height, knobs and levers except the Bernardo has an open base and the craftsman's is enclosed. It's the HBS 350

[Corey Hallagan]

I was told the Craftsman is made by Yukon Tool. Here is a link to it at amazon and note it is a 1/3 HP tool as noted in the reviews not a 1 HP. The one shown is a 10" and not a 14"

http://www.Yukontool.com/

Do a search on Amazon for Yukon Band Saw and you will see their 10" saw and it is noted in the review it is the same saw sold as craftsman 10" I was also told they make larger saws than they offer in their own line up. Dunno...

Corey

[David Marcus Brown]

http://i12.ebayimg.com/01/i/000/7b/8d/5929_1_b.JPG
http://bernardo.at/upload/shopx/p_hbs350_b.jpg