Cabinet Saw Advice sought [Archive] - Sawmill Creek Woodworking Community

Ted Baca

11-14-2006, 1:42 AM

Fellow WW'rs
I am in pursuit of a new table saw I am replaceing an old Sears Contractors and wish to get into a Cabinet Saw. I beleive I have narrowed my search to a General 650-T50, Powermatic PM2000 and a possibly a SawStop. I have read that some General owners are less than satisfied with assembly, due to poorly written manuals and experienced difficulty in obtaing parts from General. I like the Powermatic as it has a lot of features I would like. But how is the Powermatic quality in comparison to say the Model 66? The Sawstop has a great safety feature but being a newer company witha new idea, will they make it in the market place? And if they don't parts would not be available. I have also heard that t can misfire with moist wood. So it is not a top contender here although I like
the way the saw is built. So if I could get some feedback form woodworkers that have had personal experience, I could really use some input from someone other than a salesman.
I am a newbee here and hope I am doing this right. Forgive me if I am not.
Ted

Mark Rios

11-14-2006, 2:48 AM

Hi Ted. Welcome to the Creek.

You sure are making a big jump in a saw. Good for you.

First off, I'm not sure where you are getting your info from but there are some SS (SawStop) owners here that can give you first hand advice. From what I understand, the misfire thing is a virtual non-issue. There is a VERY talented and longtime architect and fine woodworker here, Mark Singer, who just sold his PM66 to buy a SS. Here is a couple of threads of his that you might find helpful.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=45558

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=45769

This thread will help give a little more info on the braking system,

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=45634

Go ahead and go up to the search button and do a (Google SawMill Creek) search on PM2000 and PM66. You'll get a lot of info on these two saws as well.

From what I've been reading here in the Creek and other forums, the Diamond Standard PM66 may just be giving way to a newcomer in the form of the PM2000 or the SawStop. I'm not sure that the General is in the running for the top spot. I've been following this issue for awhile now and I am looking forward to seeing what shakes out.

BTW, just a word to the wise, if you get a new saw (or any new tool) here, the rule is, no pics....didn't happen. :D :D :D We look forward to seeing what you get. ;) ;) ;)

HTH and Welcome again.

scott spencer

11-14-2006, 5:08 AM

General/GI does have a reputation for poorly written manuals, but I believe the General actually comes with wings attached and has less assembly than other saws.

That said, this is a lifetime purchase that should be the last saw you ever own. I wouldn't let the first few hours of assembly of any of them deter me from the saw that I really wanted....I've yet to read of someone who didn't get past that step, so look at the big picture and chose what you like.

Jim Murphy

11-14-2006, 10:11 AM

Ted,
I recently upgraded to a cabinet saw from a contractor saw, and spent a lot of time reading up on the various saws, like you are now. I have taken woodworking classes where I used Unisaws, Powermatics, and some Euro saws, like Felder. My choice? SawStop, which was delivered about two weeks ago. Couldn't be happier.

The brake (and potential safety regulations affecting other saws) gets a lot of attention, but forgetting the high-tech brake, the saw beats the competition in a lot of other ways, in my opinion. First, the quality of the engineering and construction is evident. Table is flat, no run out on the arbor, extra beefy trunnion, reducing vibration. Cast iron top is larger than other tables. The Bies clone fence is fully adjustable, but mine was spot-on out of the box. The riving knives and blade guard are great, although some WWrs have found the anti-kickback pawls left scratches on the stock (I haven't seen this on beech ply or the maple I have been using this week). The riving knives (that's right, plural, one knife without the blade guard, and one with) are easily adjustable, both left and right, and up and down (closer or farther from the blade). The cast iron table has a pivot point on the operator side of the saw, and there are adjusting screws on the rear right and left to tweak the miter grooves to be perfectly square to the blade (no dead blow hammer needed). The cranks are the smoothest I have used, because if I remember correctly, they are hydraulically assisted.

The only problem I had in set up was attaching the wood side table. The holes in the table to attach to the front and back rails were drilled too high on the table. I needed to redrill the holes in order for the top to be flush to the cast iron. Not a big deal, but considering how everything else was spot-on, it was diasappointing.

There are interlock switches which kills the power if doors are left open, there is a master cut off switch near the electrical box on the saw, which allows you to put on a padlock so the saw can't be used. The on-off switch is a fairly large paddle in front, which can be turned off easily with your knee or thigh. No more jury-rigged paddles. There are other features I found unique (include other adjustments to the movement of the blade). I suggest you go to the web site, where you can download the owner's manual, which I also found to be clear and done well.

Regarding wet wood: The saw has a "Bypass Mode" which allows you to use the saw without the brake being active. Once you cut the first piece of wet wood, the saw will tell you (via a light) if the brake would have triggered if the brake was activated. If it would not have triggered, you reactivate the brake, and go to work. If it would have triggered, well, I wouldn't use wood that wet for a project. You would be best off letting the wood dry, or if you insisted, you could do the project with the brake turned off. So, to me this is no big deal.

I have to admit that the safety features really got me interested in the saw. I witnessed the hot dog demonstration twice, and found it impressive. My sons (17-24) use the saw, and I never felt quite comfortable about that. Even if I am standing next to them, sometimes things can happen too fast. They have all taken lessons, and know what is and what is not safe -- but mistakes do happen. Now I feel a lot better about them using the table saw. The riving knife is also a huge improvement over the splitter.

Although I purchased the saw primarily for safety (and was going to upgrade to a cab saw someday) I couldn't be more pleased with the quality performance of the saw.

mike wise

11-14-2006, 11:39 AM

I have the PM200, it is the first cabinet saw I have ever owned. It just might be the last. I love this saw. No I really love this saw. I does all that I ask it to do, and it does it with class. I can not talk about any other make or model, but I can tell you that the PM2000 has done everything I was told it would.

Have fun looking, the shopping is almost as fun as the using.

Mike Wise

Matt Moore

11-14-2006, 11:53 AM

I too have a contractor saw and hope to upgrade within the next year or two. My primary reason for upgrading will be safety. I don't really "need" the power of a cabinet saw and don't "need" the other features. I have outfited my Delta Contractor saw with an excelllent fence (Incra), decent dust collection, and many others accessories as well so for the hobby work that I do I can't really make a case to spend 1500-2000k on a new machine just for performance (at least not at this point).

Now saying all of that, when I told my wife about the SawStop and the price, she said, as soon as we have the $, get it. She loves the saftey of it and so do I. I have a healthy respect for the saw I have an will continue to do so even with the SawStop but it can't hurt to have the safety feature. The fact that this saw is almost in a class of its own in regard to quality and features is icing on the cake.

Several years ago, I was driving in the rain and had a person pull out in front of me and my wife. Once the person realized what they did, they started to stop in the middle of the road. I had to swerve two times to avoid crashing. We were going about 55mph. At that time we had recently purchased a Jeep Grand Cherekee and it had antilock brakes on all 4 wheels. The ABS allowed me to slow down and manuver the vehicle at the same time. Without the ABS, I would have hit the person since I was going too fast to miss them or would not have been able to control the vehicle if on the brakes in the rain without ABS. I told my wife that we will never have a car without ABS since I believed it saved a major crash and maybe our lives.

So what is the point. We all can say we are the best drivers (or table saw users) and it will never happen to me but the fact is that accidents do happen whether we are a professional driver or hobbiest and if we can be prepared for them, we should. The extra money for ABS on a car is usually less than $500 but that is a fraction of what a major crash may cost. Is saving $500 really worth it? I say no.

Just the same with the SawStop.

The safety is the most important to me and I love the fact that the saw is great too. Of course if the saw was junk it really would not matter since they would not be in the market long. But if you read everyones comments that has one and all the reviews, this saw is second to none in the cabinet saw class in quality, performance and safety.

I CHOOSE SAWSTOP.

Ted Miller

11-14-2006, 12:08 PM

Ted, I have the PM200 and I also purchased the Laguna TS back in '99 and its one of the best saws I have ever used. I have never had problems with either saws except for the motor on PM which was replaced free of charge, just my labor to install. But I have used the Sawstop a few times lately and really like its performance, the only con was it would not accept moulding heads. I am sorry but for me General has left some bad tastes in my mouth, I sometimes feel you are only paying for the name with General since I have torn down a few jointers and saws from other overseas companies and they are exact duplicates in my eyes...

lou sansone

11-14-2006, 12:28 PM

I have owned a variety of table saws. I have not seen the SS in person, but most folks really like them. the safety features really make it worth the extra cost. there is a world of difference from the saw you own to anything you have mentioned. you will really like owning a good cabinet saw
best wishes
Lou

Ted Baca

11-14-2006, 1:53 PM

Gentlemen, thank you all for your responses and great food for thought. I was just reveiwing some of the threads on the SawStop and it makes a great argument for reconsidering it. I currently lean towards the PM2000 and the responses in favor of that saw here aid in my quandry. I think overall the Powermatic would be better than the General in both assembly and parts assembly. The SawStop still comes into play, the fact that a moulding head can't be used is a minor concern, however a concern. Cost doesn't enter into this for me as this is my last saw and I want it right.
The casters on the PM would allow me some additional storage on wheels, which is always nice. Shop real estate always is at a premium. As a side note I was directed to this forum by a dealer and have really enjoyed the vast information available here. I look forward to any further advise on this thread.

Matt Moore

11-14-2006, 2:16 PM

Ted Baca

11-14-2006, 3:13 PM

Matt I agree. with your first point and that is my stumbling block at this time. I realize that no company has a crystal ball or GM and Ford would not be battleing Toyota for the American Market. However I do not want to invest in a saw that has only been on the street for 2 years. I spoke with a SawStop rep on the phone today and shee indicates that they are selling about 2000 saws a year. I don't know if that is good, average or outstanding. So I need to decide on that, but I do realize that if they failed as a company that I would still have a saw that can be used without the safety device. One other point she confirmed for me was that
the SawStop cannot be used with a Moulding Head and that needs some consideration as well. If I do wind up with the PM2000 I may not have that safest saw but a darn good one at the very least.
As far as the mobile base I beleive that the PM would be more vibration free since it would set directly on the floor.

Mark Rios

11-14-2006, 3:55 PM

I'm not arguing with your post Ted, just hopefully adding to it, but I believe ( I'm fuzzy on this) that if a company is making a product like this they have to continue to make parts available for it for a certain period of time after stopping production. I know this is the case in automobile manufacturing. They have to supply parts for at least ten years after a model production has been stopped. Hopefully, one of the members here with REAL knowledge of tablesaw manufacturing (certainly not me) can chime in and correct me or fill in what I may have left out.

That being said (correctly or not), what are the wear parts on a tablesaw? The bearings, maybe the arbor, belts, switches, I'm not sure of anything else. If SawStop did go out of business, the only part that wouldn't be able to be serviced is the brake mechanism (maybe the arbor but you could have one made if it wore out in fifty to a hundred years). The saw still works without the brake. If it's truly a top of the line saw, it will still be with or without the brake. All the other parts on the saw can be replaced with equal or better quality aftermarket parts. After the warranty period anyway, I'm not sure that, as long as my saw is working just fine, the company going out of business would bother me too awful much. Inconvenient? yes, perhaps. But it wouldn't result in a useless product. Without the brake, isn't it still a top of the line saw?

Am I on the right track anyone?

Matt Moore

11-14-2006, 4:11 PM

As far as the mobile base I beleive that the PM would be more vibration free since it would set directly on the floor.

I am not sure that I would agree with this. With the weight of these saws, nothing in those mobile bases is going to allow vibration to seep into the saw.

I spoke with a SawStop rep on the phone today and shee indicates that they are selling about 2000 saws a year. I don't know if that is good, average or outstanding.

I don't really know either. If my memory serves correctly, up until the last several months they have been selling all they could make. It has only been recently that some have started to show up in stores. So the demand has been as much as they could make. Also, I would expect the sales to increase as they become more redily available and people and touch and feel them in the stores.

So I need to decide on that, but I do realize that if they failed as a company that I would still have a saw that can be used without the safety device. One other point she confirmed for me was that
the SawStop cannot be used with a Moulding Head and that needs some consideration as well. If I do wind up with the PM2000 I may not have that safest saw but a darn good one at the very least.

I would be interested in knowing how many people use their table saw with a molding head. In the few years I have been lurking here and other sites, I don't recall ever seeing a thread about someone using a molding head on theirs. Therefore, be sure to have an idea if you will ever realistically use it in this mode. For me it would not even be part of the consideration.

Erik C. Hammarlund

11-14-2006, 4:13 PM

there's no reason to think sawstop will go out of business. $6 milion+ in sales a year isn't enormous but it's not chump change either. And even if they DID go out of business, you'd have ample notice and plenty of time to get whatever spares you wanted. I think that would be a bad reason to avoid the sawstop if you are otherwise leaning that way.

Mark Carlson

11-14-2006, 4:27 PM

Ted,

You have 3 great saws on your list. I bought the General 650 2 years ago. The PM2000 and the SawStop wern't available at that time. The quality of the General is outstanding (it might be the best) but is lacking the newer safety features of the other two saws. If I was buying today I'd seriously look at the SawStop because of safety issues. I'd also consider a European slider like a Minimax.

That being said I'd hate to ever part with my General 650.

~mark

scott spencer

11-14-2006, 6:04 PM

I had a molding head for a couple of years and did use it occasionally. I sold it this summer in response to another wwer's request for one. While a molding head may be a rarity, a dado stack is not, and I'm unclear whether or not the SawStop accepts dados or box joint sets. That'd definitely be a consideration for my use....YMMV?

CPeter James

11-14-2006, 7:30 PM

While I do own a PM66, I have looked closely at the PM2000, the Sawstop, and the General 650. As far as quality goes, maybe a tossup, but the General, made in Canada is pretty nice. The PM2000 has some very nice features and is a lot of money less than the SS. The built in mobil base on the PM2000 works well and they seem to have overcome the problem that they had on the first units. The issue of dado and moulding head is a good question. If it won't take a molding head, how can it take a fill width (13/16") dado set? The riving knife and dust collection seem to be good on the PM2000, the General I think just dumps into the base and the Sawstop has built in ducting.

The Sears unit appears to be an overpriced, overhyped unit made to sell in a non speciality store. When you spend this much money, you really should be shopping in a location that deals in only this type of tool. You need sales people that know AND USE woodworking machinery and know the specs like some people know sports stats. Go to several stores and talk to different people. Find knowledgable people nearby who can give you insight. Join a guild or woodworking group.

And remember the most expensive tool you can buy is the cheapest, you buy it over, and over, and over again.

CPeter

Ted Baca

11-14-2006, 8:43 PM

Mark Rios. please don't take my comments as argumentative. I appreciate what you are stating. As I did mention even if the PC board or brake failed and were no longer available. I would have a very respectable table saw anyway. I originally started this thread with the SawStop as a third place contender. But I must admit from a "confused mind" I have placed it in a more favorable point of contention. Erik you make a valid point 6 million is not chump change. I never put the math to it when I heard the 2000 unit number. I can't imagine that General or Powermatic are selling much more if anymore of any one model in those quantities in any calender year. But if they did fail as a company I would suppose that I could contact the dealers for remaining parts if all the SS owners weren't thinking the same thing. Actually I really doubt that they will fail unless Delta, Jet, powermatic, General and evryone else developes a better safety system.
Scott, you are probabaly right about the mouldinbg head but it would make a tool that much more versatile. Not adding that much weight to the decision. Mark thank you for adding your experience with the General. It does seem to be the best built saw in this group. I like tha fact that it built on this continent and has the Baldor motor. I was told an am witing for confirmation from General that they will be adding Riving knives to their whole line and they expect them to be retrofitable. So my quandry continues again what a great source of information this website has proven to be.

Jim Murphy

11-14-2006, 9:26 PM

To answer one of the above questions, The SawStop does have a brake cartridge to use when using a dado set up. It requires a change out of the brake, which takes about 30 seconds. Each saw comes with a regular blade brake and a dado blade brake.

I also agree with the comment that a mobile base is not a problem. I purchased the HTC mobile base for my SawStop, and it seems rock solid to me. I like the PM2000 built-in wheels, and doubt either system adds to a vibration problem.

Matt Moore

11-14-2006, 9:33 PM

Directly from the SS website regarding dado.

"http://www.sawstop.com/media/Cartridge-Blade-Schematic.jpgThe brake mechanism is shown in the drawing to the right. The arrow shows how the aluminum brake pawl pivots into the teeth of the blade. The brake pawl is part of a replaceable cartridge that includes the spring, fuse wire and electronics necessary to burn the fuse wire. An optional dado cartridge provides the same protection for dado cuts.

The standard and dado brake cartridges are single-use components that must be changed if the brake is ever activated. Changing a brake cartridge is fast and easy, no more complicated than changing the blade. "

Mark Carlson

11-14-2006, 10:39 PM

. I was told an am witing for confirmation from General that they will be adding Riving knives to their whole line and they expect them to be retrofitable.

Thanks for the news about a possible riving knife in the future for my General 650. I'm very interested in any thing you might hear on this. I'll be asking my local General dealer (Eagle Tools) the next time I'm there. ~mark

Ted Baca

11-14-2006, 11:44 PM

Mark Carlson

11-15-2006, 12:09 AM

Mark Carlson. I did hear that the riving knoves would available by the end of 2007 from the US General distributer. However when I received an e-mail from a General employee in a request for a copy of the manual, he was not aware of the news. So I have to wonder. However are you aware of the Merlin Splitter that available from General? I will purchase one should I decide on the 650. Also you may not be aware that General aquired Sommerville Excalibur which was the owner and distributer of the Merlin Splitter as well ast the Osborn Mitre.
Just an FYI

Ted,

End of 2007? Thats way off in the future. I hadn't heard about Excalibur and General. I looked at the Merlin Splitter but ended up getting a Shark Guard from Lee Styron. 3 different sizes, easily removed spitters with a blade guard that will now take a 4in DC connection. Another recommendation:)

Heres a picture from a previous thread.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=38383&d=1147487437

Noah Katz

11-15-2006, 2:30 AM

"As far as the mobile base I beleive that the PM would be more vibration free since it would set directly on the floor."

IMO sitting directly on the floor would give more vibration because elastomeric caster wheels will absorb a lot more energy than hard concrete.

That said, the vibration might be insignificant in both cases.

I'm considering a PM2000, and if I noticed more vibration with the saw lowered, I'd bond polyurethane under the base.

Speaking of the PM2000, a FWW comparison review

http://www.wmhtoolgroup.com/site_files/FineWoodworking_050606.pdf

showed its fence deflection with a side load to be significantly higher than several of the other saws.

.006" isn't a lot, but neither is a 6 lb side load. With a 20 lb load, which doesn't seem unreasonable, that becomes ,020". and it seems that could really affect cut quality.

But I haven't read anywhere, including the review, that this is an issue; just looking for reassurance from owners that it's not.

Thanks

scott spencer

11-15-2006, 6:16 AM

Mark Carlson. I did hear that the riving knoves would available by the end of 2007 from the US General distributer. However when I received an e-mail from a General employee in a request for a copy of the manual, he was not aware of the news. So I have to wonder. However are you aware of the Merlin Splitter that available from General? I will purchase one should I decide on the 650. Also you may not be aware that General aquired Sommerville Excalibur which was the owner and distributer of the Merlin Splitter as well ast the Osborn Mitre.
Just an FYI

Hi Ted - General/GI had a rep by the name of Peter Kennedy that was extremely helpful to me when I owned a GI contractor saw. Perhaps he could clarify the rumor about a riving knife.

larry merlau

11-15-2006, 7:52 AM

i was in your boat about 4 years ago,, done the research, listened to the crek and others in wwrking.. went with the general 650, got it and it was fine no trouble at all.. the manual was alittle deceiving in the mounting of the fence hardware and the hole configuration location...but in all the saw was and still is my greatest improvment in my shop. the dust collection in the base works good but you do need the over head dust collection as in a guard type for the blade. the beis splitter as of then and now doesnt work on the left tilt 650??? why i dont know.. but there are others out there that do. the ss wasnt an option at the time i got the general, and my reason for going with then general was the way it was built.. i contacked wilkie and talked witht htem in person on the pro's and con;s between the pm and general. got alot good info from them and they didnt get the sale but made my choice obivious.. the SS is something to consider now days for sure. safty is by far more valuable than any other option.

Jim Becker

11-15-2006, 9:48 AM

IMO sitting directly on the floor would give more vibration because elastomeric caster wheels will absorb a lot more energy than hard concrete.
I thought that the (PM2000) wheels retracted when the saw isn't moble so that the saw cabinet is directly on the floor? This is the method that Mini Max uses on most of their machines including the J/P I have and it's rock-solid. The Vega "machinery mover" mobile base funcions simlilarly with no wheels down when it's not being moved. If the PM2000 moblity feature works that way, I wouldn't worry about it.

Noah Katz

11-15-2006, 2:11 PM

"I thought that the (PM2000) wheels retracted when the saw isn't moble so that the saw cabinet is directly on the floor?"

Yes, my comment was based on that assumption.

Steve Dewey

11-15-2006, 2:26 PM

I have a PM2000

Yes it sets on the floor when not mobile

It is the most vibration free tool I've ever used. It puts everything else in my shop to shame.

I just picked up the 5HP version last month. Cuts straight thru 3" hard maple w/o even slowing down.

Only 3 minor complaints:

1 - Dado insert apparantly on backorder nationwide (solved w/ shop made zero clearance insert.

2 - Seems to require overblade dust collection (but don't all saws?) haven't installed one yet.

3 - height adjustment is "fast" - good and bad - great for moving it up to change blade, bad when trying to dial in a dado depth. One of the blade height gizmos has made me a bit more accurate. I wish it worked like my planer where 1 rev was a 1/16" (or even 1/8").

JayStPeter

11-15-2006, 2:51 PM

I have a Unisaw now that I like. If I was buying now, it would be the SS. I want that protection around if my kids ever use the saw (either with or without my permission). Since my kids are young, I have a while before I worry about that. So, we'll see what the market brings over the next 5 or 6 years.

Ted Baca

11-15-2006, 5:59 PM

Scott, I am waiting for an e-mail back from General I forget his name on the confirmation. But I think I am leaning towards the PM2000 or the SawStop. Larry, thank you for the input on the General, it is indeed a HD machine, but I like the deeper table of the SS and PM 30-30.5" vs 28" not much but some added stability when ripping. I may have misstated my intentions earlier but I beleive the PM2000 would be more stable on it's cast base than a SS or General on a mobile base. I did find out today that SS is bringing out a mobile base for thier saw in 07. They told me that the
other bases on the marker are too lightly made for the weight of their saw. He further indicated that the mobile base would be designed to fit under the saw base only. Similar to what PM is doing. I really like that design by not having the extension arm out to the legs of the extension table. That allows me in a smaller shop the ability to have wheeled cabinet that can slide under the extension ofr storage.

John Bush

11-15-2006, 6:21 PM

Hi Ted
I have the HTC mobie base for my SS with the 52" table. The saw is very stable on the base when locked in, and moves very easily when in the moving mode. There are three foot controlled levers to simply lift for mobility and latch down to lock. Easy and effective. It would be nice if there were no extensions but I can fit a cabinet under the table as is so that has not been a big issue. Good luck, JCB.

Ted Baca

11-15-2006, 6:50 PM

John, thank you for letting know about the HTC do you know what model it is. I have looked at Jet, Generals, and onther brand I can't recall. They all had the extension between the base and the two legs under the extension table. That would keep the tool cabinet fromrolling under freely. I though about maybe building ontop of the two extension bars on the General as they sate it will hold 1000#'s but I would hate to have it buckle and have the extesion table bind the fence. On another note any complaints on the SS you care to share?

Rob Bodenschatz

11-15-2006, 7:04 PM

I have the PM2000 and love it. Vibration is not a problem but you wouldn't expect it to be since it sits directly on the floor when casters are retracted. This is my first cabinet saw so I can't really compare it to any of the other saws in that category.

Don't know you're located, Ted, but if you are anywhere near Philadelphia, feel free to come on over & take it for a spin.

John Bush

11-15-2006, 7:29 PM

Hi Ted,
The HTC model is specifically sized for the SS and I don't recall the #. I am a hobbiest and chose the SS because I was looking for an upgrade to a better CS than I had and the SS was just being introduced. I checked out the PM66(2000s weren't available then) and the unis and after a limited bit of soul searching figured the quality alone was worth the extra $$ for the SS, and the safety benefits were icing. I've been pleased with all aspects of the saw and just need to get out there and use it more. JCB

JIm McMullen

11-15-2006, 7:39 PM

Hi Ted,
I went through the same process as you are a few months ago. I have used a good 'ol Rockwell contractors saw for 30 + years and just wanted a cabinet saw (didn't 'need' one, just wanted one). I had the same three saws under consideration as you have. I bought the SS after putting it through its paces at a local store. I also know of several professional cabinet shops that have bought them for use for their employees use(safety reasons). As many nice folks here can atest to, I tend to be a bit 'anal' and was probably too obsessed with things like table flatness, arbor runout, fence quality, etc. To make the long story short, the safety feature got me. I have never had an accident as I have always been VERY spooky about my machinery, especially my shaper, but I am getting older and am fully aware that I can screw up and then that's it!! The SS is a very well built machine. If you want the best built machine re: table flatness, you might buy the General (I have great respect for their quality control), but my saw's top is within .002" in all directions and with extensions +-.008". The arbor runout is .000". Fit and finish is excellent and the fence is really very good, much to my surprise. The extension table is a bit 'cheesy' but it fit right on with no problem and is flat. I too bought the HTC base and there is no vibration and I can move the saw easily. As far as cutting wood, the saw does just fine, although I doubt it is any better or worse than your other candidates. Dust collection is much better than my old Rockwell( which I built a pretty good chute for), but not super efficient. I don't like the color (black) and I am particularily displeased with the gross stuck-on decal !--I would rather the saw have a less glossy finish sans the advertising. ..just my personal preference, but I think it's a bit gaudy (PM fits in this category too IMHO). All in all I'm pretty darn happy I have it and, although I never want the cartridge to 'fire', if it ever does I'm going to kiss the darn thing with tears of happy relief in my eyes. Cheers, Jim

Ted Baca

11-15-2006, 9:02 PM

Rob, thanks for the invite, but I am Colorado. Sounds like you are happy with the PM2000. I think someone misunderstood an earlier comment about the vibration. I keep the PM2000 as strong contender in my quest here because the vibration (or lack of ) is a concern. The wider base that they use gives a good stabile stance. If it weren't for the SawStop being such a safe saw I would already have the PM. I know they aren't the same company as they were years ago, but I have some Jet tools and have been very happy with the service they offer and they are the same company now. I am sure you have read the reviews and that FW and Workbench gave them equal award status. I am thinking that the SawStop was considered equal due to its brake. So I have to think the PM would have won hands down had the SS not had the brake.

John B. I would probably wait for the SS base when they release it for sale. I do have a question that arises after your last comment. You mention the 2000 wasn't avialabale when you purchased the SS. Had it been do you think you would have still bought the SS or do you have any regrets?

Jim, I understand your reason for the SS although I haven't commited to that yet. I really like the PM and the General is maybe more saw than I need for a home shop. I was a little displeased with the General Rep that told me a Riving Knife is on the way and a Factory rep. tells me a day later he knows nothing of it. I started looking at the 220 and the General Rep was to let me know if the Merlin Splitter was going to be available, a month ago, and hasn't responed to my e-mails. I do believe the 650 is a great saw but I am concerned about availability of parts. The dealer actually eluded to that as a problem when I inquired about ordering the mobile base from General. I think at the end of the day the argument for the SS is hard to ignore. I have always tried to be safe in the shop. I use extra caution with the TS and Miter Saw but the lingering fear is always there. That one split second when blood covers your work and you can't count to ten. It scares me. I do feel that the SS propaganda preys upon that fear in its advertising and I want to make a consciense decision with out that fear as a major ingredient. But it seems that the reality of the possibility is unavoidable.

Deep down inside I get that buy the PM you know that PM is agreat line of tools and the support will be there. But harboured next to it is that fear we all run through our minds when we hear the saw kick up to speed.

Tom Ruflin

11-15-2006, 9:08 PM

This is why I own a SawStop! http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=45979

Not to mention that it's a great saw even without the safety break. I think riving knifes are also very important like theone on the Sawstop or the PM2000.
I have my sawstop on a Delta mobile base that was used for the contractor's saw I had. I would not want to push it a mile on the base but it works for my situation and is rock solid when not in mobile mode. I just cut myself with a chisel and got 2 stiches ( see OUCH!!! thread), I got throught it fine but cannot imagine what it is like to come in contact with a table saw blade.

Gary Herrmann

11-15-2006, 10:41 PM

I've had a General 650 for about a year now. I've got an overarm blade guard and the merlin splitter for it. The PM2000 was just coming out when I bought, so I didn't really consider it. I did think about the SawStop, but didn't have the $. I've been very pleased with my 650 - especially since I got it on sale.

Yes, the manuals aren't all that great, but I had no problems getting the saw and running. I moved from a benchtop tablesaw to a cabinet saw, so I would have been happy with most cab saws.

Given the same financial resources, I'd get a 650 again. Nothing against the PM2000, but a friend looked at them at the 66 and said they weigh about the same as the 2000. I find that a bit odd, since the 2000 has a cast iron base. Did the 66 have a much heavier top and trunnions?

If I had the money, I'd buy a SawStop. If I had big bucks, I'd buy a 10 ft slider - not that I could get it down the stairs tho... :(

Bruce Wrenn

11-16-2006, 10:17 PM

I am not sure that I would agree with this. With the weight of these saws, nothing in those mobile bases is going to allow vibration to seep into the saw.

I don't really know either. If my memory serves correctly, up until the last several months they have been selling all they could make. It has only been recently that some have started to show up in stores. So the demand has been as much as they could make. Also, I would expect the sales to increase as they become more redily available and people and touch and feel them in the stores.

I would be interested in knowing how many people use their table saw with a molding head. In the few years I have been lurking here and other sites, I don't recall ever seeing a thread about someone using a molding head on theirs. Therefore, be sure to have an idea if you will ever realistically use it in this mode. For me it would not even be part of the consideration.Haven't used my moulding head this week, but most likely will on Monday. I often have to make a short piece of replacement moulding in my business. Last year, I made enough V groove siding for two dormers. The pattern was no longer available. This is a bread and butter operation. Yesterday, we set an "eyebrow" over pool house doors at local YMCA, with siding made with moulding head. Already have a piece of replacement base made for a job for next week. Couldn't live without my moulding heads. They are Sears brand by the way. Only problem I have had is forgetting to empty can on cyclone.

John Kain

11-16-2006, 10:52 PM

As a surgeon, I will own the Sawstop within a year for it's safety.

However, there are a couple things worth noting.

1. The Mobile Base is sturdy. And I mean sturdy. I've tested the PM 2000 and 66, Delta Uni, and Jet....and there's no difference in stability.

2. Sawstop was at least as good as all others listed above in terms of trunion stability, accuracy, and cut.

3. Sawstop's fence is equal to the Beis.

4. Did I mention the safety?

5. Larger table size.

6. The moulding is an absolute non issue for most woodworkers.

If Sawstop ever goes out of business, you can count on me to set up the manufacturing of the brakes for both the blade and dado blade set up. I know there will be a market!

David Giles

11-16-2006, 11:23 PM

Matt Moore

11-17-2006, 8:16 AM

I think Erik is correct on the company size. A $6MM/year company is a perfectly stable size that is big enough to support a reasonable amount of staff and development work. And still make the owner rich over time. I'm glad to see that they are selling enough saws to keep the company going without outside investment.

I agree. It seems to me that more people are coming out every week on the forums (this one and others) and talking about their purchase. I would not be surprised if their sales continue on a large growth pattern for a while.

The one difference with this saw is that it will intice many to buy it even though they don't need or wanted to upgrade. The safety feature is a very compelling argument all by itself. None of the other brands can claim that in the way SS can.

Personally, I doubt SS is producing enough for the demand at the point. The demand will continue to increase as they are more widely known.

Also, once the contractor saw is available, I would think that it will dwarf the sales of the cabinet saw. It will put it in a price point that many, many more people will be able to justify and afford.

Ted Baca

11-17-2006, 11:36 AM

Matt you are correct in your assumption. I had spoke with a Gary at SS and he didn't indicate a price on the contractor but I think once it hits market that will skyrocket sales. One other item I gleened from the conversation is the circuit board is a Texas instruments product. Also he said the whole switch box is about 100.00 thru the parts dept. At that I would almost buy and extra brake of each and a switchbox. What else could go wrong?
But realistically I don't think SS is going anywhere and they start to get into financial problems, face it mis managment can cause that for a healthy company. I think someone like WMH Tools or The company that owns Delta-DeWalt, etc would probably pick them up. I want to attend the Denver WW Show this weekend there will be SS demos and I hope to gather some more info but I can't come up with a reason not to buy this saw.

To all forum members, this has been a great thread and I have learned a lot from my fellow WW's and as a new member(first thread) I don't think I will ever buy another tool without seeking the advice of such a vast knowledge base as the sawmillcreek member ship. Thank you one and all!
Ted

adam quinn

11-17-2006, 12:34 PM

The PM2000 is not made in the US. If you are looking at Powermatic have should also look at the PM66 it is made in the US. I got the PM66 last year with the 5hp motor. I mainly make reproduction trim. So I am working primarily with 14' boards.

My previous saw was a delta contractor saw. It would regularly lock up and sometimes even kick back. The MP66 with the 5hp motor is unstoppable and I have yet to have it kick back. It is worth it to get the 5hp motor.

I LOVE this saw. I could not be more pleased with the table top. The difference is this top is round ground. You can almost see yourself in it. It is so smooth the boards glide over the top. This makes it much easier to control the cut. I apply a coat of paste wax every couple of months to keep the top shiny and slick. The round ground top also resists rust more than the flat ground top.

I was disappointed to see that the PM2000 had a flat ground top, and that it was not made in the US. I still think it is a quality saw with nice features. But the PM66 is a proven product. It has been changes little since it was introduced.

Just remember any saw you get will take time to set up. I had to use some masking tape as shims on the extension wings to get them flat and I had to use shims between the cabinet and the top to get it flat. But one I did it is flat within .005"

just my .02c

Adam

Jake Helmboldt

11-17-2006, 9:53 PM

Adam, you mention that the 66 you bought required shimming of both the wings and the top. FWW magazine's comparison several months ago reflected your problems. However, the 2000 was much better in terms of flatness and alignment.

The biggest problem I've had with PM has been their American-made AccuFence on my 64A. I'm all for buying American, but they better get those guys in TN to shape up. They can't produce the quality of the Taiwanese in their own company and probably make a lot more $$.

Besides, the 2000 has a true riving knife. That alone is worth buying it over the 66 IMHO due to the enhanced safety. I also think the 2000 simply looks like a much more polished and evolved product.

JH

adam quinn

11-18-2006, 9:11 AM

The biggest problem I've had with PM has been their American-made AccuFence on my 64A. I'm all for buying American, but they better get those guys in TN to shape up. They can't produce the quality of the Taiwanese in their own company and probably make a lot more $$.

JH

What problems did you have with the fence. I bought the 50" fence with extension table. I have nothing to compare it to other than the delta and it is far better than that. I have not noticed any quality problems with the fence.

Besides, the 2000 has a true riving knife. That alone is worth buying it over the 66 IMHO due to the enhanced safety. I also think the 2000 simply looks like a much more polished and evolved product.

JH

Maybe they have changed when I compared the two side by side the 66 just seamed to have a smother top. I am sure the 2000 was flat but when I ran my hand across it it was not a slick and smooth. Also my shop is not climate controlled and the rust resistance of round ground was appealing. (of course this may be a wives tale)

It is true the PM2000 does look more evolved but that was the least of my concerns. In my neck of the woods no one I new had purchased the PM2000 yet but they all had the PM66 and loved it.

Another factor in my consideration was resale value if my business did not work out. Around here the USA made saws have resale value and the Taiwanese do not.