Two questions (tablesaw and jointer)

[Matthew Dewell]

First off, I've been looking at getting a Jet Supersaw or Tablesaw. I'm confused as to what the advantages of the Supersaw vs. a Tablesaw are. Can anyone help me here?

Second, how is a parallelogram jointer different? What advice does anyone have as to buying a jointer? Should I consider a parallelogram jointer? Now, I will admit, a jointer is down the road for me to buy, but I'm just trying to get a feel for what to look for.

Thanks in advance.

til later,
Take Care

[Hoa Dinh]

A Jet Supersaw is a model (Supersaw) of a tablesaw from a manufacturer (Jet). A Jet Supersaw to a tablesaw is like a Honda Civic to a car.

I have a feeling that you may be benefited from a book. A WW forum like this one is perfect to seek advise/answer to a specific question/problem. Your questions are very broad. Besides, there are a lot still unknown about you: budget, shop space, projects, ....

Go to a local library and check out some books on woodworking and/or woodworking power tools. And then, if you have any specific question, just ask.

[scott spencer]

Hi Matthew and welcome to SMC!

The Supesaw is from a classification of table saws known as a hybrid, meaning it has traits from a traditional contractor saw (motor size, electrical requirements, and trunnion mounting style in this case) and other traits from a cabinet saw (internally mounted motor, shorter drive belt, and possibly a full enclosure). Note that there is a second version of the Supersaw out, but the original is still available in limited supplies....usually heavily discounted. The original had four legs that mounted to a half enclosure, and feature the not-so-popular Microglide fence. The original also had some issues with the blade raising mechanism...it's likely that's been corrected. The newer version has a full floor to table enclosure, a different blade raising mechanism, and offers a much nicer Exacta fence (a Biesemeyer clone). Other hybrids from this class are another Jet model (708100), the 3 Delta models, 3 Craftsman models, Steel City, a General International, Sunhill, Grizzly. IMO, all those models have merit at their price points depending on what you like. The Steel City and Craftsman models have cabinet mounted trunnions like a cabinet saw.

A hybrid is an excellent alternative to a traditional contractor saw that has the motor hanging out the back. That motor location takes up additional space, poses obstacles with dust collection, has a longer drive belt (more vibration and less efficient power transfer, alignment complications, and risk of hitting something with the motor when tilted. There's literally no downside to choosing the hybrid over a traditional contractor saw IMO. Hybrids start in the $400 range and go upwards of $1200 or so. Most will run on a standard 110v circuit making them a good choice where 220v isn't available. That said, some of the nicer hybrids approach the cost of a full commercial grade 3hp cabinet saw like a Grizzly 1023, which is a more substantial machine....the table surface is about the same size, but underneath it's a different animal. They tend to cost a couple hundred more and require 220v, but if those are not obstacles, a cab saw is an excellent long term investment.

To many wwers the TS represents the most important tool in the shop, and is usually the tool that people have the strongest preferences about and most passion about, so spend your research time and budget proportionately, and find one that you'll be happy with.

[Jim Becker]

Scott's answer on the saw is comprehensive.

Relative to your jointer question, a parallelogram bed design allows for the edge of the table to remain exactly the same, exact distance from the cutters no matter what the depth setting happens to be. For folks who do things that require "big bites" (very rare any more), that can be a big advantage. For most folks who set their jointer to 1/32" cut...it's mostly a moot point. That said, the jointers that have this design tend to be the higher end/price products. Grizzly has helped out in that by introducing a parallelogram design jointer "similar" to the Delta DJ-20 last year...very affordable for those who want that feature.

[Matthew Dewell]

Thank you Hoa Dinh. I knew the Supersaw was a tablesaw, and I had heard/read it was a hybrid. Yet, when I was looking through the recent Jet catalog, they seem to have set the Supersaws (70878#K, 70877#K, and 70877#XK models) apart from their other saws (70866# models) within the 10" range. Why?

I'll admit I'm sort of new to woodworking, but I'm looking at setting up a decent shop to do a range of projects, ranging from cabinetry to small boxes; mainly from magazines like Wood and others. I had heard one of the most important tools in your shop is your tablesaw. So that's why I'm looking into it so diligently. Yes, I have checked out books from the library and they have been helpful, but I have not found any that explain the difference between a hybrid and a regular tablesaw. That's why I came here, to the experts. ;o)

I will say I have a Porter-Cable router and router table and a DeWalt 708 Compound Double Bevel Miter saw that I bought some years ago on clearance, and before I knew exactly what I was doing. At the time, I just had some projects that I knew I could get done with those tools. I have since gone to a few Woodworking shows and have found I really want to get into this stuff and should consider expanding and rebuilding my shop.

So, Scott and Jim, thank you very much for your input. I'm still curious what all a hybrid saw offers over a normal one. Do you have any good input for this, as I want to know before I buy one of the most important tools in my shop?

Now I'll admit, as it seems to show, I'm sort of sold on Jet saws. I really haven't done a price/power/life comparison of them to saws like what Delta offers, and I know Powermatic is sort of out of my league. Especially considering it’s just a hobby and not a professional career I'm seeking from woodworking. But Jet looks like a decent middle to upper line saw that has a lot of options to their tables.

I don't know if I would consider a Craftsman for a tablesaw, but about every other hand tool in my shop is a Craftsman. Still, I'm not opposed to spending around $1200 to $1500 for a tablesaw (supersaw[hybrid]), so that's why I'm looking into Jet's saws. I'm not sure I would consider them for a planer, jointer, bandsaw or even drill press. But I believe I have heard they are a fairly good middle to upper line tablesaw manufacturer, so that's why I'm interested in them.

Now as to a jointer, I was told that Grizzly offered a good cheap one for the price, and I'm guessing they meant the 6" at about $325. But I have since realized I'll be using some wood that is around 8", so I'm reconsidering on going with just a 6" and heading towards a more advanced one. Now, according to Jim, it doesn’t sound like I would really need to look at a parallelogram jointer, but I was just curious why they seemed to be so much more expensive than the wedge bed kind.

I'm not considering getting a jointer any time soon, but I've heard, a jointer and a planer can save you a lot of money in the long run, by buying unmilled lumber and doing it yourself. So I'm looking at what I need to consider down the road here.

After I get a tablesaw, I'll probably look at a bandsaw, then perhaps a drill press.

Anyway, thanks for your input so far. I still would like to know what advantages a hybrid tablesaw offers.

Thanks again for the input and I look forward to hearing more.

til later,
Take Care

[Jim Becker]

Matthew, the "hybrid" saws are a compromise between a contractors' style saw (trunions mount to the table top) and a cabinet saw. (trunions mount to the cabinet...top is separate) The only "advantage" the hybrids have over the typical contractors' style saw is better OEM provided dust collection and sometimes a little more power. (1.75hp vs 1.5hp) Most cabinet saws have 3hp motors (or sometimes 5hp) and weigh a heck of a lot more than the contractor's style saw or the hybrids. The extra mass and power is very nice to have...if the budget allows. (These heavier saws also require 240v power)

The hybrids are nice machines. But often for only a few more bucks you can get a decent 3hp cabinet saw so it's worth at least considering them. That said, the Jet, Delta and Craftsman hybrid saws do have decent bang for the buck.

[scott spencer]

Like many brand names, Jet is continually updated and changing their tool lineup. The original Jet Supersaw had some sporadic issues and got a somewhat bad reputation because of them. Jet's response was to improve the Supersaw, update it, and reintroduce it with a full enclosure and improved fence...hence two versions of the Supersaw....stock on the original will eventually sell out. They also recently introduced the 708100 which a very basic model currently on sale for $400. It appeals to the entry level price shoppers..it's very much like a contractor saw but with the benefit of having an internally mounted motor vs one that hangs from the back.

The primary advantage of a hybrid over a contractor saw (assuming that's what you meant by a "normal" saw) is the motor location. An outboard motor takes up extra spaces, creates the need for a longer belt, poses a risk of hitting things when tilted and knocking out the alignment, and dust collection is much harder with them. The original intent of the outboard motor was to provide easy acess to remove the motor for portability so the saw could be moved from jobsite to jobsite. With the rise in popularity of portable "jobsite" saws like the Bosch 4000, DW744, or PC3812, most contractor saws have become primarily stationary saws in a workshop...the term contractor saws is now mainly a misnomer, and there's no longer the need to have the motor mounted externally. The hybrids have addressed that issue. In actual use, there's not much difference where the blade meets the wood, but if you're starting from scratch there's no need to buy the nuisances of having a saw with an outboard motor unless you plan to remove the motor frequently and move the saw to new locations on a regular basis. Any of these saws can be mounted on a mobile base and easily rolled across the shop, which is different than relocating it to a new site.

If you can justify the expenditure of $1200-$1500 and have 220v available, you're better off buying the more industrial grade cabinet saws. You'll gain power, mass, and longevity.

Jet is a good solid brand name. While it's important to buy what you like, I think you'd open up more possibilities by expanding your list to include other equally respected names. There are pros and cons to each brand and situation. Many of the imported Asian saws are very similar in construction and function...in fact many come from the same factory and simply receive different paint, fences, and accessories. No brand makes the best of anything. Some are more consistent than others, but on any given day, an incredible sale can come along on a brand other than Jet that could save you hundreds on a comparable machine. It's important to weigh the factors that are important to you. Jet has a strong dealer network and the support that's associated with them. There's usually a premium to pay for that support but is worth it to some people. Grizzly tends to offer comparable machinery for a lower price ...they're what's known as a direct importer and don't have a dealer network, nor the dealer markup....Sunhill, Bridgewood, Woodtek, and Yorkcraft are others. The downside is that it's typically mail order, which isn't for everyone. To some, it's important to get the most tool for the money spent, so it has appeal. They're essentially theoretically opposing methods of retailing similar machinery. These are just examples of two brands. Delta, Shop Fox, Craftsman, Steel City, PM, GI, General, Woodtek, Sunhill, Bridgewood, Ridgid, and Yorkcraft all have some competitive machinery too, and all have different appeal to some extent, be it service, warranty, price, quality, features, etc. If you like the concept of the Sears saws but not the Sears name, consider Steel City...SC is an associated business with Orion International, the company that makes the current Craftsman hybrids...they're very similar to the SC version.

Once you've done enough research, you'll know when the right deal comes along for you.

[Matthew Dewell]

Wow, thanks a lot guys. Hmm, now I have to consider a lot more. I guess the Jet marketing got me with its name of Supersaw. But once the benefit of more power was mentioned (Arrr Arrr Arrr), I'm interested in the 3HP to 5HP arena of tablesaws.

Jim, please pardon my ignorance, but I'm unsure of what exactly a trunion is. I know it has something to do with adjustment of the saw blade, but I'm not sure exactly how or what it does. Would you be kind enough to inform me about a trunion, front and/or back.

As to electrical power, that's more in my arena. I have a separate simple 110V, two 15amp fuse box run to the workroom, but I can easily go about changing it to 220V if need be, to handle a more powerful saw. So now I think I should be looking more at Jet's 10" arbor XACTA saws and other brands. I would guess, subconsciously, I'm a little sold on Jet, from seeing their use and potential, but I'm open to looking at other brands. I'll start by looking at Grizzly (http://www.grizzly.com/home.aspx)'s offerings in that arena.

Do either of you believe my thinking is on track with getting a tablesaw first off in my equipment list (ignoring my owning a miter and router already) and them looking at a bandsaw after that?

Thanks so much for your help. It is much appreciated.

til later,
Take Care

[Jim Becker]

The trunion is the assembly that holds the arbor, blade and other things that make the table saw a table saw. The heavier, the better, IMHO...more mass equals less vibration, especially under heavy load. On contractors' style saws, the trunions are mounted to the bottom of the table and lighter in weight...makes sense since these things were designed to be "portable". They are bit harder to adjust for blade alignment 'cause you're effectively moving the blade relative to the table, but there is no reason that these machines can't be super accurate. Cabinet saws have the trunions "hung" from and fastened to the saw cabinet and those assemblys are really beefy. The table top is separate and easy to get "dead-on" relative to aligning the blade since you are moving the table top relative to the fixed blade.

I have a Jet left-tilt Xacta saw and have been very pleased with it. The Delta Unisaw is the one that most are measured toward, although Powermatic's offerings are often judges superior. Grizzly's cabinet saws (1023XL, etc) are very cost effective. And SawStop offers a unique feature. Lots of choices...you budget will help you decide. All of them will require a 240v circuit be installed in your shop.

[scott spencer]

Here's pics of various trunnions:

The Griz 1023 has a typical cabinet style trunnion system similar to those on a Unisaw, General, Jet, and most others:
http://images.grizzly.com/grizzlycom/pics/jpeg500/g/g1023s_det1.jpg

Here's a pic of the bottom of the trunnion system on a Griz G0478. It's similar to that of the DW746, and GI 50-220 hybrid....possibly similar to the trunnions on the original Jet Supersaw but I can't recall:
http://images.grizzly.com/grizzlycom/pics/jpeg500/g/g0478_det4.jpg

Here's a pic from the top of the trunnion system of the Craftsman 22124 and Steel City hybrids. These are the only hybrids I know of that use cabinet mounted trunnions:
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y203/hewood/22124trunnion.jpg

Here's a bottom view of the Ridgid 3650 trunnion...similar to those on the older Craftsman contractor saws. Note that it's minus the motor bracket and motor:
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y203/hewood/sawparts/Ridgid_UnderTheHood_Big.jpg

I think you're on the right track to get a TS first, and to expand your search to the bigger cab saws. It's hard to imagine needing more than 3hp, but 5hp wouldn't hurt if you've got the cash and juice to power it.

[Jerry Olexa]

Scott, you are da MAN!!! Seriously, Good info.. Thanks

[Matthew Dewell]

Thanks, guys, for your info about trunnions.

til later,
Take Care

[Mark Rios]

WOW Scott, that's a great answer.

You DA (tablesaw question answering) Man!!!



Hi Matthew and welcome to SMC!

The Supesaw is from a classification of table saws known as a hybrid, meaning it has traits from a traditional contractor saw (motor size, electrical requirements, and trunnion mounting style in this case) and other traits from a cabinet saw (internally mounted motor, shorter drive belt, and possibly a full enclosure). Note that there is a second version of the Supersaw out, but the original is still available in limited supplies....usually heavily discounted. The original had four legs that mounted to a half enclosure, and feature the not-so-popular Microglide fence. The original also had some issues with the blade raising mechanism...it's likely that's been corrected. The newer version has a full floor to table enclosure, a different blade raising mechanism, and offers a much nicer Exacta fence (a Biesemeyer clone). Other hybrids from this class are another Jet model (708100), the 3 Delta models, 3 Craftsman models, Steel City, a General International, Sunhill, Grizzly. IMO, all those models have merit at their price points depending on what you like. The Steel City and Craftsman models have cabinet mounted trunnions like a cabinet saw.

A hybrid is an excellent alternative to a traditional contractor saw that has the motor hanging out the back. That motor location takes up additional space, poses obstacles with dust collection, has a longer drive belt (more vibration and less efficient power transfer, alignment complications, and risk of hitting something with the motor when tilted. There's literally no downside to choosing the hybrid over a traditional contractor saw IMO. Hybrids start in the $400 range and go upwards of $1200 or so. Most will run on a standard 110v circuit making them a good choice where 220v isn't available. That said, some of the nicer hybrids approach the cost of a full commercial grade 3hp cabinet saw like a Grizzly 1023, which is a more substantial machine....the table surface is about the same size, but underneath it's a different animal. They tend to cost a couple hundred more and require 220v, but if those are not obstacles, a cab saw is an excellent long term investment.

To many wwers the TS represents the most important tool in the shop, and is usually the tool that people have the strongest preferences about and most passion about, so spend your research time and budget proportionately, and find one that you'll be happy with.

[Jerry White]

Mathew,

You certainly have received some good, in-depth replies to your questions. I would like to add to Jim's excellent reply on the parallelogram jointers. An additional feature of this design is that it is easier to adjust the tables for a co-planar relationship. To me this is the major advantage of the parallelogram design. I own a Delta DJ-20. If I were buying today, I would look very hard at the Grizzly G0490....possibly a better machine at much less cost.


Relative to your jointer question, a parallelogram bed design allows for the edge of the table to remain exactly the same, exact distance from the cutters no matter what the depth setting happens to be. For folks who do things that require "big bites" (very rare any more), that can be a big advantage. For most folks who set their jointer to 1/32" cut...it's mostly a moot point. That said, the jointers that have this design tend to be the higher end/price products. Grizzly has helped out in that by introducing a parallelogram design jointer "similar" to the Delta DJ-20 last year...very affordable for those who want that feature.

Enjoy your quest of good tools!

Jerry

[scott spencer]

WOW Scott, that's a great answer.

You DA (tablesaw question answering) Man!!!

Jointer - flattens boards, squares an edge....get one. :D