Horizontal Mortisers

[Ben Abate]

Hello All,

I am thinking of purchasing a horizontal mortiser, I was wondering if any of you have a preference. Or tell me what you like about yours or if you would buy it again.

The ones that I have been looking at are:
Felder FD 250
Laguna
Knapp
And I haven't seen if MiniMax sells one.

Also; what options do you feel are necessary. Tilting head, two speed or variable speed, table extensions (out board tables) square mortise attachment, forward/reverse switch, indexing for dowels.

These machines are in the $3000.00 to $4500.00 price range. I would like to stay towards the lower end. So far forward and reverse and a two speed motor seem to be good options.

Thank you
Ben

[Jim Becker]

Mini Max (http://www.minimax-usa.com) offers horizontal mortising as an option to their jointer/planer combos as well as their full combos. I don't see a separate unit on their web site unless I missed it.

[Steve Rowe]

Ben,
I have the Laguna and have used the Felder at a school. Both were close in price and I ended up with the Laguna because it had the tilting head, the doweling fixture, and the mobility kit included. The Felder no longer has the tilting head. I thought the tilting head and doweling was a nice feature when I purchased however, I have used neither since the purchase so in retrospect, these features would no longer be a deciding factor for me. Both models are configured where the motor moves and not the table.

Having used both, I like the stop adjustments on the Felder better than the Laguna. The stops on the Laguna are a double jam nut setup and takes a lot of effort to readjust. The Felder have kip lever locks and are easily moved. The Laguna is single speed and one directional rotation. If you wanted to set it up for variable speed or reversing, you would have to change to a 3 phase setup with a VFD. I asked Laguna about this before I bought and they weren't at all interested in customizing that type of setup for me but I didn't really push the issue. I also think the miter gage setup on the Laguna is a bit cheesy. The Felder has dust collection and the Laguna does not. Realistically, I am not so sure the dust collection on the Felder really works well. Perhaps John R. can weigh in on this one.

It is interesting that Laguna told me the Laguna unit was a "better" unit than the Knapp. They didn't really specify why and the Knapp was more money so I didn't question it.

Another option you didn't list was the Rojek. It is likely to be less expensive than any of those you were considering so it may be worth checking out.

Steve

[Rick Lizek]

The Rojek is kind of tinny. I have access to one. Single speed and single direction of motor rotation. No tilt. Under $2,000 and from others I've talked to on the Grizzly G0540, the Rojek would be pretty close match, but the Grizzly is around $400. Do a search as your same question was recently asked. The Rojek does come with the doweling bar as an option. We have an older Griggio in our shop and most all the shops around here have a slot mortiser from Paolini, SCMI, Robland/Laguna (mortiser from a combo set up alone...nice unit for $600 plus making a stand and using a router or setting up a jackshft and a regular motor. It does come with a mortise chuck.) Another option is a converted handmill from the metal trades. If you can find a collet model it doesn't need much modification and they are typically heavier than the heaviest slot mortiser.

[John Renzetti]

hi Steve, I was surprised when you said that the Laguna salesman told you that the present Laguna Mortiser is better than the Knapp mortiser they sell. I've seen the Knapp mortiser and that is a real nice machine. Real heavy and solid. I'd rate it above the Felder FD250 that I have. I think it costs about $500-1000 more than the FD-250. There may some availability issues with getting it since production of the Knapp has moved to Robland in Belgium and production may have not been restarted for the mortiser.
Is the one you have made by Stomana in Bulgaria.
take care,
John

[Ben Abate]

John,
A bit early to be up posting on the web isn't it????? Damn, I have to be at work so thats my excuse. I will look at the knapp a bit better. Steve what are the two bars that come out of the front of the Laguna? Are they just handles to move it around?? The salesman that I spoke with Richard was not too familiar with the mortisers. I wish he would have been. But, he did email me a few pictures, I seen the two bars and thought what are they, then I thought they maybe handles. Well I'm happy to hear that you were able to use both machines. By the looks of it the Laguna seems pretty nice. But I will take your advice, I have used the Felder and I did like it. I was over John R's a few weeks ago and he has variable speed on his, he did mention that he likes it.
The dust collection on the Felder did not work too bad. Then again when you are working with a new machine you tend to pay attention to what is going on at the business end.
I have talked to Felder this week, lets see where they come in at. I would perfer the Felder but they just had another price increase.

Thanks you guys for your input
Ben

[Steve Rowe]

John - You are correct in that my machine was made in Bulgaria. I purchased over 1-1/2 years ago so I don't believe the transition of Knapp manufacturing was the issue. By better, they may have been referring to bang for the buck (plus, they were expecting several in during the following week). Laguna did throw in some extras (mobility kit, and additional hold-down clamp and doweling fixture) which would have been additional cost items had I gone for the Felder.

Ben - The two rods coming out the front are the handles for the mobility kit. They thread into the the base and I have them removed except when I need to move the machine. I can comment that the Laguna is very heavy and it is even difficult to move with the leverage offered by the handles. Definitely rely on the pictures that Laguna sends you as opposed to what they have on their website as there are differences. I may have to start using those fancy Zambus casters that John turned me on too because these machines are not getting any easier to move.

Overall, I have been very happy with the Laguna. As I recall, the Laguna was $300-400 less than the Felder at the time and the extras just sealed the deal. I would give the Felder a slight edge on overall quality plus it has the ability to use extension tables that the Laguna does not offer. The holddown clamp on the Felder is smoother and easier to adjust than the Laguna. Other than the stop adjustments, I would call everything else about equal. If variable speed is important to you, then I would opt for the Felder since it comes standard with the 3 phase motor. I have seen the Felder go on sale for less than what I paid for the Laguna so, given the time of year, I would wait for the Felder Christmas specials to be published before making the decision.

Steve

[Ben Abate]

Steve,
The variable speed is now an $800.00 option. I have 3 phase, I wish that were the case that it was standard with the Felder. Is there enough table to add side tables to the Laguna. Aigner makes the rails that a lot of guys use to add additional tables to bandsaws and other machines. As for the Christmas sale the price went up 4% from last month. Jesse and Hans told me this a few weeks ago the increase would be reflected in the Christmas catalog. I would prefer to purchase the Felder over the laguna but, Laguna as you said seems to throw in a few extras. Felder is not offering enough savings to me at this time. They are taking off about $120.00 on a $3500.00 piece. I was looking for them to come in around $3000.00 I am a pretty good customer of theirs. I have purchased quite a bit in the past two years. Buying machines is like buy an automobile with the back and forth stuff. I spoke to Jesse on Wed. of this week, I told him what my ceiling was in respects to price. If he can come at that he will have a sale. If not I will look futher into the Laguna. John R. told me I can put a variable speed on for about $300.00 so I may do that in the future.

One more question, how does the tilting head work??? And why would you need it. Do you use it for mortises that are anything other than 90 degree stuff. like chair rails and such.

Thanks
Ben












John - You are correct in that my machine was made in Bulgaria. I purchased over 1-1/2 years ago so I don't believe the transition of Knapp manufacturing was the issue. By better, they may have been referring to bang for the buck (plus, they were expecting several in during the following week). Laguna did throw in some extras (mobility kit, and additional hold-down clamp and doweling fixture) which would have been additional cost items had I gone for the Felder.

Ben - The two rods coming out the front are the handles for the mobility kit. They thread into the the base and I have them removed except when I need to move the machine. I can comment that the Laguna is very heavy and it is even difficult to move with the leverage offered by the handles. Definitely rely on the pictures that Laguna sends you as opposed to what they have on their website as there are differences. I may have to start using those fancy Zambus casters that John turned me on too because these machines are not getting any easier to move.

Overall, I have very happy with the Laguna. As I recall, the Laguna was $300-400 less than the Felder at the time and the extras just sealed the deal. I would give the Felder a slight edge on overall quality plus it has the ability to use extension tables that the Laguna does not offer. The holddown clamp on the Felder is smoother and easier to adjust than the Laguna. Other than the stop adjustments, I would call everything else about equal. If variable speed is important to you, then I would opt for the Felder since it comes standard with the 3 phase motor. I have seen the Felder go on sale for less than what I paid for the Laguna so, given the time of year, I would wait for the Felder Christmas specials to be published before making the decision.

Steve

[Ben Abate]

Steve or anyone else reading this,
Who carries Griggio, Paolini and SCMI in the US. I was looking at the Griggio website. Nice stuff; I like the idea of a tilting or pivoting table.

Ben

[Steve Rowe]

Ben,
A picture is like a thousand words. The pivoting head allows tilting the motor carriage assemble upto 45 degrees left or right. You loosen two nuts and pivot to the desired position as indicated in the first picture. I have not used it in this fashion yet but it would be used to make mortises that are not parallel with the face of the material (such as chairs, louvers, etc.). The orange kip levers were not provided by Laguna - I added them myself to replace setscrews.

With respect to variable speed, I was referring to the standard 3 phase motor which you can add a VFD later on without changing the motor. If you want this flexibility and decide on the Laguna, I would push them to put a 3 phase motor on it.

I too would have preferred the Felder over the Laguna since I have Felder equipment as well and it would have been nice to have interchangeable accessories between machines. The cost difference was just too much to suit me. Ironically, I was willing to pay more for the Felder, just not $300-400 more.

Pivoting head arrangement:
49985
Doweling fixture arrangement:
49988
Top table view with clamps:
49989
Top table view:
49986
Stop setup (doublenut):
49987

[Ben Abate]

Steve,
Thanks for the pictures; I see about the tilting head. I know Felder does not make that option any longer. If I would end up with a Felder I will have to talk John R. out of his. He has not attached it to his yet. John don't go putting it on now.
I like the idea of being able to do louvers. I suppose with some thought to a jig for indexing this task would not be too difficult. Possibly I could get felder to dig one up in Austria laying around.
You are correct that being able to interchange accessories is a nice option.
I'm really glad you responded to the thread. I would have not thought of some of these things.
I will put some effort later today when I get home to look at the Griggio. I'm sure it is out of my price range but I will still look.

thanks again.
Ben

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

One more question, how does the tilting head work??? And why would you need it. Do you use it for mortises that are anything other than 90 degree stuff. like chair rails and such.

On mine it tilts both forward and backward angling the cutter. This is useful for chairmakers and other applications where ya gotta work angled tenons.

[Ben Abate]

On mine it tilts both forward and backward angling the cutter. This is useful for chairmakers and other applications where ya gotta work angled tenons.

Cliff,
Let me get this straight, you have the Felder correct? And you say yours tilts forward and backward compared to the Laguna that tilts left and right. Hummmmmm. What would be the best tilt? I always thought that the mortisers tilted like Cliffs for the purpose he stated. Then when Steve sent the pictures of left and right and mentioned about the ability to do louvers I thought that would be pretty nice. Who makes the one that tilts back and forth and left and right. That must be the very expensive one. I saw that Griggio make one that comes in two models. The head tilts on one and the other has a tiltiing table. Now if the head tilts left and right and then the table tilts, all the above would be covered. Most likely very expensive. I am trying to find out who sells Griggio in the states. Haven't found a US dealer yet.

thanks Cliff.

Ben

[John Renzetti]

Hi Ben, Steve and now Cliff, We seem to be having a three way conversation here.
I'd like to see Cliff's FD250 with the fore and aft tilting head. Alright Cliff were you spraying lacquer again without a mask.
$800 is way too much for the VFD option. Not when you could buy the vfd from somebody like Dealers Electric in NY and install it yourself. It was pretty easy to do and I have a cd that Pete V in CA made up that gives all the instructions.
I haven't installed the tilting attachment yet on my FD250. I bought it for $20 from the guy in NY who bought that unclaimed container that contained the brandnew Felder KFS-37 (from 1994) and tons of other parts and accessories.
Laguna sells the Stonoma, Knapp and Griggio mortisers. They may have to order the Knapp and Griggio. I know at the IWF the guy that runs the Furniture and Cabinetmaking shop and course at the Univ of WI was looking for a hd mortiser. They use the Format K975 as a saw. The 250 was a bit light for what they needed. I sent him over to talk to Carl at Laguna about the Griggio and Knapp mortisers. I believe Carl told him that they would have to order them since they weren't stocking them.
The Griggio is really nice. I don't know if anyone else is bringing them in. I know Erik Reibling in NY has the Panhans which is the equal (in price also at around $5k).
Hermance in Williamsport PA carries the SCMI machines, so they would be local for you Ben.
Steve, I replaced the stock mobility kit on the FD250 with the Zambus casters. You only need the AC50s which are about $23/ea. Lifting that 500lb machine by those two handles and trying to maneuver it in place on the back wheels while trying to keep my feet out of the way was way too much trouble.
take care,
John

[Ben Abate]

Well guys,

I got an offer today from Felder, it is more to my liking. I believe I will go with it. I will however look at Hermance machine. I would really like the tilting head possibly I can get someone at Felder to find a retro kit in Austria. I was told that they were not sure if a tilting head assembly can be fitted to the new machines. Possibly someone can chime in here. John, your killing me ($20.00) I better email John up there again. Steve, John and Cliff thanks for the info. you guys were of great help.

Thanks guys

Ben

[Steve Rowe]

Steve, I replaced the stock mobility kit on the FD250 with the Zambus casters. You only need the AC50s which are about $23/ea. Lifting that 500lb machine by those two handles and trying to maneuver it in place on the back wheels while trying to keep my feet out of the way was way too much trouble.
take care,
John

John - I think I need to place a caster order. Did you order this with the stem or plate setup? I also like the feature where the motor head is sliding all over the place when you move it. Real awkward when you are also trying to keep from mashing your toes.

Ben - Glad to help.

Steve

[John Renzetti]

Hi Steve, Get the AC50S, which are the stem type. I had forgot about the motor moving around when moving that thing with the standard mobility kit.
take care,
John