Apples to apples price comparison Universal vs Epilog

[Tim Goldstein]

In the market for a laser and I think I have pretty well narrowed my choices down to a Universal or an Epilog. Between the 2 I like a few things about the Universal better, but not enough to count the Epilog out.

At this point it is looking as if the Universal fitted with the same features as the Epilog (air assist, vector table, ethernet connection) is considerably more money for basically the same machine size and laser power.

Question: Is the Universal really a much more expensive machine when compared to the Epilog equipped with the same options or have I just not negotiated enough with the Universal salesperson?

Thanks,
Tim

[Keith Outten]

Tim,

I just compared two machines, one from Epilog and one from Universal. The specifications for both machines are close. Epilog has the lower price because they have a discount/sale price right now. If you compare the regular retail prices for both machines they are close with Epilog still having a slight edge.

The tough part is comparing the technical capabilities of both machines, there are some differences such as optics, etc. This is where it becomes a real tug of war making the final decision. Both companies are rated very high in the tech support area and software support. I hear that Universal's price for CO2 tube replacements is much cheaper than Epilog, that is what has been reported here at SMC. Local support in your area should be considered, do both companies have a local sales/service office?

.

[Ed Newbold]

In the market for a laser and I think I have pretty well narrowed my choices down to a Universal or an Epilog. Between the 2 I like a few things about the Universal better, but not enough to count the Epilog out.

At this point it is looking as if the Universal fitted with the same features as the Epilog (air assist, vector table, ethernet connection) is considerably more money for basically the same machine size and laser power.

Question: Is the Universal really a much more expensive machine when compared to the Epilog equipped with the same options or have I just not negotiated enough with the Universal salesperson?

Thanks,
Tim Just my humble opinion, but I know of two Epilogs that broke down after six months usage (people who have posted on the forum). I like the Epilog software, but my Universal M-300 has been running flawlessly for over 4 years now.

In those two breakdowns I cited above, I also know the Epilog support folks got those broken machines back up and running again in something like 24 to 36 hours, so that's pretty good service.

I've called the Universal rep many times over the years to try to order some preventive maintenance supplies and to get some advice from her, but she simply does not return customer calls!

So, I don't really know which is best. I think if I had to do it again NOW instead of 4 years ago, I'd probably go with the Epilog.

Ed Newbold
Columbus, OH

[Mike Null]

I had a Universal for 8 years and always called tech support when I had a need for supplies or advice. They were always there and reacted efficiently.

I don't think I would ever call my rep for technical issues. The rep is a salesperson and most often has no technical expertise. A phone call is a phone call so why not go to the people who get paid to know.

[Tim Goldstein]

Thanks everyone for their input so far.

As far as support goes, either would be pretty much the same to me. I am about 20 minutes away from the Epilog factory. The Universal rep in this case is not just a salesman, but also runs a laser shop, sells and services used machines. He stocks a wide selection of common parts. So he seems to be a much better resource than most. Plus he is about 5 minutes from my plant location. So in either case someone is close enought to get them by the neck if there are major issues.

Yes the Epilog pricing I was given was the "Sale" price. But that is the pricing that Universal will have to be competitive with if they want to get my business. While there are a few things about the Universal I like better, there is nothing on it I would consider worth paying more for than the Epilog. I would say that there are actually some things on it that are not as nice as the Epilog. The linear guides on the Epilog are definitely a technically better and more expensive system then the rubber wheels on an aluminum track that Universal uses. But I think that the Universal system is adequate and the linear guides are actually overkill.

So at this point I feel I would be happy with either brand and will likely let price drive my decision.

Tim

[Mike Hood]

Just curious... but why would you rule out a Pinnacle M or Accuris? Much better value when I did all my researching (several thousand $$$ under either Epilog or Universal).

Wondering what your decision is based on (in comparison).

[Rodne Gold]

Let service , warrantee and the guarantee of short downtime drive your decision. NOT price. The co that offers the longest no quibble warantee on the tube as well as abilty to exchanged it within a day or so should be the one you pick.
All mainstream lasers supplied at the same price and wattage do the same thing.
Believe me , support is really the determinant of which system you should pick. Get it in writing too.

[Tim Goldstein]

Just curious... but why would you rule out a Pinnacle M or Accuris? Much better value when I did all my researching (several thousand $$$ under either Epilog or Universal).

Wondering what your decision is based on (in comparison).

What I don't like about the units offered from Sign Warehouse is that they are from Sign Warehouse. I have purchased a plotter from them previously and am less than 100% satisfied. Long story, but basically the on board processor locks up from static electricity in use. Their solution is to spray it all the time with anti static spray. They did offer if I wanted to spend the time and money to pack it up and ship it back that they would see if they could do anything. This is a GCC produced unit so I have a bad taste in regards to the to their products and also from Sign Warehouse in that I should have to eat the costs to get the unit to work as it should have originally. So that experience is the first black mark. Second thing I don't like is that they are internet only with out any local support.

Tim

[Mike Mackenzie]

Tim,

First off, regarding the price go to the universal rep and tell him you want the same price he should accommodate you.

second regarding the linear bearing system to the uls bearing system.

There are factors with this system that no one ever considers first they are not rubber wheels they are a very durable polycarbonate sealed wheel. They do NOT need any lubrication and they are very easy to maintain.
Just wipe them down and keep the track clean it is not even a five minute a day task.

Sure they will eventually wear and need to be replaced but the cost is very minimal especially compared to replacing the entire X axis arm assembly on the other brand.

Do not let anyone tell you that they "won't" wear this is not true anything that moves will eventually wear. The bad part about the linear set-up is the lubrication if you have ever seen the exhaust system of any laser system even after a six month period of usage you will understand why lubrication is not a good thing in a laser. There is a lot of particulates that come from the lasering of materials the oil attracts them like magnets. When this builds up over time the bearings and rails "WILL" wear and need replacement. These are quotes from a bearing Mfg.

1. Why is cleanliness important for your bearings’ operation?
One of the most common sources of trouble in anti-friction bearings is debris that contaminates the lubrication environment. Debris can be a major cause of abrasive damage, which can lead to reduced bearing life. Cleanliness doesn’t just mean clean bearings, but instead, it can also be applied to clean housings and shafts, clean tools, clean solvents and flushing oils.

What sort of damage can result from foreign material being present in a bearing system?
Abrasive wear, bruising and grooving can all occur if foreign material is present. Abrasive wear consists of particle contamination; bruising is an effect of debris from other fatigued parts, inadequate sealing or poor maintenance. Grooving occurs when large particle contamination is imbedded into the soft cage material.

Work on the rep if the price is not what you want I am sure you could come to an agreeable price.

[Patrick Cooley]

Tim,
I've had a Epilog for just under 3 years. I'm currently looking at a new machine. I looked at the Universal. My biggest problem in the slowness of rastering, the way it handled rounded corners for vectoring, and the carriage just didn't seem as as hefty as the Epilog.
I'm down to two machines in my search.. Trotec and Epilog. I like Trotec's warranty, but the Epilog has a bigger table. I'm traveling this week to a couple of installs to get a better idea of both machines.
Good luck with your quest.
Pat.

[mike wallis]

I've had my Epilog for 2.5 years now. I've gotten it to work for want I want to do but there are many work arounds to get the quality product I want to sell.

The next time I'm in the market for a laser the first thing I'll be looking for is how bad the banding is or power fluxuations in the tube. I plan on driving to where ever I need to go to get demonstrations on the material I'm using (I'll bring the material). Which ever manufacture can demonstrate the quality I'm looking for has my business. The second & third things I'll be looking for is warranty and service.

If I need to spend a few thousand more I'll do it, trying to work around the problems I've encountered is just not worth saving a few bucks.

[Tim Goldstein]

Mike,

Very interesting input on the ULS bearing system vs linear guides. Makes me wonder if some of the motor issues on machines with linear guides is not caused by contaminents getting into the bearings and making the balls skid instead of roll. It would not take anything very big to stop the rolling. Sort of like a little stone under a shopping cart wheel. Once the rolling is turned into skidding the amount of force goes way up and would be very hard on a motor. I can definitely see where the ULS "tires" would ride over the crud that is bound to accumulate much more easily.

Thanks for the input. Will be talking to my rep to see if we can get to a satisfactory price on the Universal.

Tim

[Tim Goldstein]

I've had my Epilog for 2.5 years now. I've gotten it to work for want I want to do but there are many work arounds to get the quality product I want to sell.

The next time I'm in the market for a laser the first thing I'll be looking for is how bad the banding is or power fluxuations in the tube. I plan on driving to where ever I need to go to get demonstrations on the material I'm using (I'll bring the material). Which ever manufacture can demonstrate the quality I'm looking for has my business. The second & third things I'll be looking for is warranty and service.

If I need to spend a few thousand more I'll do it, trying to work around the problems I've encountered is just not worth saving a few bucks.

Mike,

Can you elaborate a little more on the issues you have experienced, Your applications that seem to aggravate these issues, and what sort of work arounds you have used to get the job done?

Thanks,
Tim

[mike wallis]

Hi Tim, Besides the banding below are a couple of other problems that I had new out of the box.

1) The first 3 inches on the table cannot be used. If I used the first 3 inches the engraving comes out jagged. Beyond 3 inches there's no problem.

2) Second on certain grey shades I get a distortion in the engraving resembling a cracking effect. I've made a few adjustments to help this but it has never fully went away. The problem lies between the Epilog driver and the beam.

I've spent countless hours troubleshooting these problems with and without Epilog. What it came down to is this is how the machine performs, accept it or get another laser.

I forgot to mention another issue that has been occurring from the start. I get random vertical lines (about .010 thick) when engraving anything below 400 dpi. When engraving 400 dpi and above the lines are still there but because of the increased DPI they are not as noticeable. The lines are not in the image as I've blown them up and there not visible. Again it's a problem between the Epilog Print driver and the beam. When working with Epilog on this issue they said it only happens when the image is in monochrome (1 bit). AKA Photograve.... I talked to Photograv about it a while back and they said they have had several Epilog owners complain about this but they do not have this issue with other manufactures.

Right now I'm holding my tongue just right and getting an acceptable product, when the time comes to upgrade I plan to set aside a week go around and have demonstrations.

[Joe Pelonio]

Hi Tim, Besides the banding below are a couple of other problems that I had new out of the box.

1) The first 3 inches on the table cannot be used. If I used the first 3 inches the engraving comes out jagged. Beyond 3 inches there's no problem.

Mike,

I've had my Epilog the same time as you, and on this particular issue it's certainly not acceptable or normal. In fact I'd have to say that on most of my small retail sign deskplate/namebadge work I use the first 3" more than anywhere else, on my production jobs I use the whole available 12x24.
Is your a larger model? I heard from one guy that his older 20"x30" with dual heads had problems but it was only the first 1/2-3/4".

[Mike Null]

Joe is absolutely right. That is not acceptable performance and whether or not you still have warranty Epilog should fix it. Like Joe I use the top left corner for more of my engraving than anyplace else.

Would you put up with a car that wouldn't shift into first gear?

[mike wallis]

Hi Joe, it's an Epilog Mini 18.

I agree it is not acceptable but the way Epilog wanted to troubleshoot the problem was to just start sending me parts in hopes of fixing the problem (expensive parts like mainboards), they didn't know exactly what the problem was. Unfortunately I was going to have to pay for the parts wether it fixed it or not because the laser had just went out of warranty. The thing that gets me is the problem was there from day one but because I was so engulfed with the other issues with the laser I didn't catch it until the warranty ran out (one year). Example: I switched out 4-5 tubes in the first year just trying to minimize the banding.

[Joe Pelonio]

That's very unfortunate. I guess I can understand how you let it slip by,
but that doesn't make it right by any means.

Without having local technicians, as good as the Epilog techs are (in my experience) it's hard to diagnose a problem from several thousand miles away. "Throwing parts at it" is the fastest and least expensive way to get up and running. You could ship the whole thing back and let them use their electronic diagnostic equipment and actually run it but most of us can't spare the down time, and shipping would cost a lot. I don't know if any of the other companies have local technicians, and it seems like that would add a lot to the price of owning a laser, having to rent space, hire and train more people.

[Patrick Cooley]

My Epilog (24EX) was not able to engrave lasermax or cut to reasonable tollerances when I first purchased it. We went through weeks of sending samples back and forth and trying different things. My salesman stopped by to help a few times but didn't have answers. The techs we're always friendly on the phone, but it always seemed like I was starting over explaining the problems everytime I called.
I finally had to send it back for them to install a collumnator (Sorry for my spelling) and tune it correctly. It was a very fustrating time. Thank goodness I was still under warranty at the time.
I just talked with someone who owns 4 Trotecs. He said they had a problem with one of them once. He said a tech showed up to solve the problem, and when he couldn't fix it, they flew a tech in from the factory and fixed it.

[mike wallis]

[QUOTE=Joe Pelonio]
Without having local technicians, as good as the Epilog techs are (in my experience) it's hard to diagnose a problem from several thousand miles away. "Throwing parts at it" is the fastest and least expensive way to get up and running.[QUOTE]

Joe, maybe I didn't explain it correctly. Epilog wanted to sell me a part to try to fix the laser, if it didn't fix the problem I still owned the part but now I needed to buy another part to fix the same problem that the other part didn't fix. In my opinion that's not the least expensive way to fix the problem for the customer footing the bill.

Being an x-mechanic swapping parts does requires the least amount of troubleshooting effort but costs the customer more than what it should. They don't want to buy a part that's not broken just the one that is, and who does?

Recently I ran across another Epilog owner who has the same problem with not being able to engrave the first few inches, I haven't spoke with him yet about it but plan to. As far as I know he's just shifting the work piece over to compensate.

[Keith Outten]

Hi Joe, it's an Epilog Mini 18.

I agree it is not acceptable but the way Epilog wanted to troubleshoot the problem was to just start sending me parts in hopes of fixing the problem (expensive parts like mainboards), they didn't know exactly what the problem was. Unfortunately I was going to have to pay for the parts whether it fixed it or not because the laser had just went out of warranty. The thing that gets me is the problem was there from day one but because I was so engulfed with the other issues with the laser I didn't catch it until the warranty ran out (one year). Example: I switched out 4-5 tubes in the first year just trying to minimize the banding.

Geez Mike, I remember you mentioning having a banding problem but had no idea that you had other problems as well. The table issue would have pushed me over the edge, I lost my patience just over bad vector tables but never got the problem solved by Epilog so I improvised. I am now using one of Mr. Nulls vector tables and it works :)

Your situation is even worse since it will be almost impossible for you to sell your machine when the time comes. I will never purchase another engraver that has a 12 month warranty and I will refuse to pay for extended warranty time that should come with the price of the machine. Short warranty's reflect poorly on a product IMO.

Mr Stanaway, isn't there something you can do to help Mike out? Possibly you can ship him another machine since his has never worked properly.

.

[Kim Vellore]

Hi Tim, Besides the banding below are a couple of other problems that I had new out of the box.

1) The first 3 inches on the table cannot be used. If I used the first 3 inches the engraving comes out jagged. Beyond 3 inches there's no problem.


I might be guessing here, When the Epilog is powered off the head always stays in the left most corner and over time the belt takes the shape around the pulley and hardens, this does not happen to new belts but you never know what temperatures or conditions it was exposed to when shipping or before it reached you, if this happens the first few inches might not come straight, you can check this by inspecting the X belt with power OFF for any deformations by manually moving the head.
Kim

[Jeanette Brewer]

Mike:

There's apparently been some miscommunication on this. Epilog Laser will not charge you for a part that does not fix your problem. Simply return it with the RMA # clearly marked (for bookkeeping purposes only) and they'll credit you for that part. I guarantee it.

While I'm not in technical support, we've sold Epilog Lasers for 15 years so I'm intimately familiar with most of their policies. May I suggest that you contact Peck Sidara (one of the tech support supervisors) for clarification and to get your system up & running correctly?

Contact info: 303-215-9171 or email pecksz@zepiloglaser.com (remove "Z"s around @)

Please let me know if there's anything we can do to help from Texas!

[mike wallis]

Hello jeanette, apparently there was a communication problem. The tech I spoke to a while back had me to believe I would have to pay for each part. It's my fault for not taking it to the top but I had just went through a slough of problems with the machine at the time and just wanted to get back to production so I compensated by shifting the piece over. I guess you could say I was worn down.

I'll call Epilog when I get a breaking point to see what they can do.

[Peck Sidara]

Dear Mike,

Jeanette is correct in that customers do not have to pay for parts if the parts don't fix the problem. However, customers are required to purchase the part(s) upfront. If it doesn't fix the problem, send the original part back (contact us first, so we know it's coming back) and you'll receive a 100% refund, no re-stocking fee.

When you do get a break and would like to start the trouble-shooting process again, please contact me directly.

Thanks,
Peck Sidara
Epilog Tech Support

[mike wallis]

Dear Mike,

Jeanette is correct in that customers do not have to pay for parts if the parts don't fix the problem. However, customers are required to purchase the part(s) upfront. If it doesn't fix the problem, send the original part back (contact us first, so we know it's coming back) and you'll receive a 100% refund, no re-stocking fee.

When you do get a break and would like to start the trouble-shooting process again, please contact me directly.

Thanks,
Peck Sidara
Epilog Tech Support


Hello Peck, thanks for stepping in and clarifying the process.
Maybe while were troubleshooting the "First 3 inch engraving" problem we can address the other above mentioned issues as well. I know we've dealt with them in the past but maybe there has been a revision the the machine/components to fix the issues since it's been a couple of years.

Thanks again

[mike wallis]

Geez Mike, I remember you mentioning having a banding problem but had no idea that you had other problems as well. The table issue would have pushed me over the edge, I lost my patience just over bad vector tables but never got the problem solved by Epilog so I improvised. I am now using one of Mr. Nulls vector tables and it works :)

Your situation is even worse since it will be almost impossible for you to sell your machine when the time comes. I will never purchase another engraver that has a 12 month warranty and I will refuse to pay for extended warranty time that should come with the price of the machine. Short warranty's reflect poorly on a product IMO.

Mr Stanaway, isn't there something you can do to help Mike out? Possibly you can ship him another machine since his has never worked properly.

.

Hi Keith, the first year was a nightmare to put it lightly. Trying to start up a new business and dealing with all the issues with the laser I'm luckily I didn't drop dead from stress.

I'm with you on the warranty, my next machine will have to have a warranty longer than 1 year. And why shouldn't it, if you advertise "Never wear bearings", "Kevlar belts" and long tube life you should be able to offer at least 2 years on the warranty.

As far as replacing the machine or refund I actually perused it in the first year and got no where. The policy may have changed now but 2 years ago one tech told me he had never heard of anyone ever getting a refund.
I'd settle to just have the laser work properly at this point.

[Tim Goldstein]

Thought I would report back on my final decision on a laser. Just signed the sales order for my laser and now have to wait patiently for it to deliver.

Went with a Universal X2 Super Speed with twin 60 watt tubes in it.

Thanks to eveyone for your input and advise on this difficult decisions.

Regarding the pricing of a Universal to an Epilog equipped so they are as close as possible, the answer is neither one wants to lose a sale.

[Mitchell Andrus]

Welcome to the club

2 tubes... Jeez!!

Mitch

Edit: I just looked at your website. Cool tools.