Saw Stop Question...

[Kevin Herber]

I just read Mark's thread on his new SawStop and did not want to hijack his gloat, er - thread!! :D

When the stop component kicks in, what happens to all the inertia in the motor? Does the blade falling down release tension on the belts and thus on the motor so it can safely wind down?

I know from my ins. adjuster days that when a car makes a sudden stop, like a collison with a drive wheel impacted, the sudden stop can damage the drive train. Lots of inertia.

It seems there would be heck of a lot of inertia on a 5hp motor turning at a few thousand revolutions. Hard to stop that without some major damage in a thousandth of a second.

Anyway, just wondering how it works.

[Howard Acheson]

As I recall when this was asked some time ago, the belt(s) slip and there is no damage to the motor.

[Joe Jensen]

I have a Sawstop and this was a concern I had. The sawstop has a motor and belt to a jack shaft, and then a belt from the jack shaft to the arbor. That arbor is mounted in a small swing arm that swings from the jack shaft. When the saw trips, the momentum of the blade causes the arm to swing with the blade below the table. That dissipates a lot of the energy. If you go to their website you can look at the manual where they have an exploded view.

[Dave Lehnert]

Just incase you don’t know. The stop mechanism stops the blade. it damages the mechanism and blade to the point they need to be replaced.

[Matt Moore]

Just incase you don’t know. The stop mechanism stops the blade. it damages the mechanism and blade to the point they need to be replaced.

I know I am about to start something here. Who cares if it kills the blade and brake. I can't believe so many people get hung up on this. Most of us in the hobby spend so much money on all kinds of stuff and we are complaining about a few hundred $ that we may never spend. Many of us have hundreds of dollars if not thousands in some cases of tools that either barely get used or don't get used at all. My fingers and hands are worth a few hundred dollars.

If I had the $ to replace my contractor saw and hopefully I will at some point, I will have this saw in a heartbeat.

[Joe Jensen]

Just incase you don’t know. The stop mechanism stops the blade. it damages the mechanism and blade to the point they need to be replaced.

Yep, if I EVER trip it, it will destroy blade and a $60 cartridge instead of my hand. OMG

[Ben Grunow]

You will get to hang it on the wall in the shop and enjoy looking at it while flipping the lights on and off with any one of your 10 fingers (hopefully).

P.S. I have SS and dont look forward to using the technology but it would be cool to have on the wall just so those who have never heard of the SS could actually see the reality of it.

[David Rose]

Hey Ben,

Blow up a blade for us! Don't risk injury, just try a weiner or something. :D Would make for some really cool pics, I'll bet.

David


You will get to hang it on the wall in the shop and enjoy looking at it while flipping the lights on and off with any one of your 10 fingers (hopefully).

P.S. I have SS and dont look forward to using the technology but it would be cool to have on the wall just so those who have never heard of the SS could actually see the reality of it.

[Mike Heidrick]

How many saws stop owners own the dado brake and or extra break setups?

[Per Swenson]

Mike,

When we ordered the saw, I bought one each as extras.

For false trips. That never happened.

So I figure it this way.

Give me $500 for my time ,hospitality ,workingmans tour of Northern NJ,

new brake and blade and I'll demo a hot dog.

For a thousand and a waiver we can use someone else's finger.

Per

[Walt Caza]

Hi All,
As a Sawstop owner, I stock an extra regular brake cartridge and also an
extra dado brake cartridge. It never hurts to have back-up...
This way, if I were to have a brake trigger, false or legit, I can at least
minimize downtime.

Ben is right on about the wall decoration. I have a triggered brake locked
onto a fresh 50 tooth carbide blade hanging on my shop wall. I attended
a hotdog demo, and asked the rep if I could keep it afterword.
(Thanks Claude)

As for switching from blade to dado stack, it is getting quicker and easier.
I now know to back off the adjustment screw, to gain a little grace
to reinstall and turn-lock the red key.

I seek no debate, but will say that even without the brake, this is
a smooth and precise tablesaw, a joy to use!

Have a good day,
Walt

[Dave Lehnert]

I know I am about to start something here. Who cares if it kills the blade and brake. I can't believe so many people get hung up on this. Most of us in the hobby spend so much money on all kinds of stuff and we are complaining about a few hundred $ that we may never spend. Many of us have hundreds of dollars if not thousands in some cases of tools that either barely get used or don't get used at all. My fingers and hands are worth a few hundred dollars.

If I had the $ to replace my contractor saw and hopefully I will at some point, I will have this saw in a heartbeat.

OK! At what point did I say it was a bad thing for that to happen? Just stating a fact of how the unit works. Nothing more or less should be read into my statement.

[Chuck Wood]

Walt,


I seek no debate, but will say that even without the brake, this is
a smooth and precise table saw, a joy to use!

That was going to be one of my questions! The safety factor aside. What's the saw itself like ?:confused: Quality? workmanship? Would you have bought the saw regardless of the blade stop?

Thanks!:)

[Bill Boehme]

I have given the SawStop a detailed close-up check-out and my impression is that it makes the Delta and Powermatic look like portable tabletop saws by comparison. If you like well built machinery -- cars, saws, or whatever -- then this is a machine to like.

Bill

[Joe Jensen]

Walt,
That was going to be one of my questions! The safety factor aside. What's the saw itself like ?:confused: Quality? workmanship? Would you have bought the saw regardless of the blade stop?

Thanks!:)

The saw is amazingly well built and precisely machined. Having said that, WHEN I bought the SawStop I would not have sold my 1990 vintage PM66 to buy it if it did not have the safety feature. But, once I bought the saw and READ THE MANUAL, I learned why it cuts so well. The SawStop has adjustments for blade heel at 90 degrees and 45 degrees when the blade is down and up. My PM66 never had this, instead relying on the precision of the machining. I assume the PM66 was very well made as it was a top brand american manufactured saw. I use dial indicators and I'm very picky on setting up. I thought I had great cut quality with the PM66, but the Sawstop is clearly better. When I checked every adjustment on the SawStop, every single adjustment was already set within 0.001". This was using a master plate and their gauge setup. After checking all settings, I used the SawStop to cut Home Depot 3/4" shop plywood. Using a medium sharpness Forrest 30 tooth rip blade I had ZERO chipout on the top or bottom of either the "keep" side or the "scrap" side. I've never experienced that before.

SO....After I've seen how well it cuts, I would have been willing to spend the $1500 plus my PM66 to upgrade....joe

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

Just incase you don’t know. The stop mechanism stops the blade. it damages the mechanism and blade to the point they need to be replaced.

Just guessing here but Dave's post directly answers the original question about where all that enegery goes.

Something has to absorb all that energy and that is the place and the process where it happens.

[Matt Moore]

OK! At what point did I say it was a bad thing for that to happen? Just stating a fact of how the unit works. Nothing more or less should be read into my statement.

Alright, then I will remove my remark from being directed at you and just redirect it to all those that get hung up on this.

How about this disclaimer for regular saws:

If any part of your body hits the table saw blade, you are likely to loose fingers or mangle body parts and they cannot be replaced for a few hundred $. Your life will be changed forever and the contact with the blade will likely cost you thousands of $ just for starters.

Oh and by the way, the Sawstop keeps this from occuring.

Now, I am really starting something.. :D

[Mark Singer]

I was told by the representative of SawStop and Jesse of Eagle Tools, the dealer that the trunion is much larger and is on a damped trunion mechanism so it absorbs the shock without damage to the saw. At the show they had hourly timed demonstrations using the hot dog....(which did not seem Kosher :rolleyes: ) . After all these tests on the same saw it still worked fine. Now in your shop how often will it need to retract into the safety mode......hopefully not at all! When an accident occurs it is there for you.....

[Ted Calver]

I happened to be at the Norfolk, Va Woodcraft today and witnessed a saw stop demo. I was very impressed. There was not even a nick in the test hot dog. The fit and finish of the saw were excellent ( better than my 5 year old PM 66). Earlier, the Jet/Powermatic rep suggested that pressure treated wood would trigger the stop mechanism. Someone asked the question about the effect of PT or very moist lumber during the demo and the response was that wood with a 40% moisture content could trigger the mechanism, but there was a special disable key to use when cutting such problem woods. I liked what I saw.

[Dan Clark]

The Sawstop looks like a great saw AND it has an device to prevent crippling injuries if the worst occurs. I see no downside. You get a good saw. And you get a safe saw.

If you activate the brake, you'll spend maybe $200 total to replace the parts. Maybe some hours to reset the saw. That's trivial!!!

For a bad hand injury, your medical bills could easily exceed the cost of the entire saw! If you loose time from your job, how much would that cost? And then there's the ultimate cost... How about every time someone goes to shake your hand? Most people are courteous enough not to mention it. But YOU will see it in their expression!

I don't understand the negative hysteria about the Sawstop. Nobody is forcing them to buy it.

To me, the saw brake is like a car air bag. 99.999% of the time, you won't need it. But life is funny; $hit happens. I don't expect to use the air bag, but it's nice to have it there just in case.

So why all the negativity?

Dan.

[Wayne Watling]

So why all the negativity?
Dan.

Hi Dan,

I don't harbor negative feelings against the Sawstop machine itself, this would be a little silly of me if it were the case, its only a hunk of metal and parts. I did however read somewhere that the developer of the technology and owner of the company tried his best to get the technology mandated into law so it would be required for all new TS's. Once I read this it stuck and it kind of turned me off the company, I'm getting my new MM slider very soon and I don't want any Sawstop technology in that slider, I think the slider is safe enough for me and I'm willing to accept any risk. I don't want private companies and governments telling me that I need Sawstop technology in my slider.

Wayne

[Jim Bell]

EXACTLY what Wayne said!! Great technology.....Unfortunately a jerk thought it up. Wrather than promote his product as one moght expect the inventor went to congress to enact legislation to require his equipment be installed on all table saws of 5hp or less. (as memory serves) My feelings are that many people are seriously injured in other ways using a table saw. I would like to see a wood worker buy a decent saw / blade and spend $500.00 on lessons to properly set up and use his new saw. If you like the Saw Stop and feel you need it ,Great! As for myself, with 40+yrs of sawdust making and not so much as a scratch from a saw blade I just don't see the sudden emergency. I wish you all the best.
Jim

[Jude Tuliszewski]

Sorry if this is a bit off topic, but I to saw the info about the developer of the saw stop trying to force feed it to everyone via congressional hearing on safety. Incidentally the developer, if I am not mistaken, is a lawyer. The take I got from it seems very clear to me, he went to the saw makers with his design and they all told him no thanks so he got POed and tried to make it so every other saw maker had to use his devise weather they liked it or not, not to mention he would stand to make a very large amount of money from royalties until the patents ran out. It turned me off as well. What should have been a great idea has been tainted by greed and ego. Just my humble opinion.

Jude

[Mike Henderson]

There was a thread that went into all this in excessive detail a while back. Different people have different feelings about whether the inventor is doing right or wrong in trying to improve the safety of table saws.

I'll offer my overall opinion, however. We are all a lot safer today because of required safety devices than our ancestors were. GFCI, for example, has saved many people from death or serious injury from shock.

I have no objection to investigating safety improvements in table saws and requiring those which demonstrate significant reductions in injury and the attendant costs in lost time and disability. While the SawStop inventor can push his invention, I'm sure the committee will examine all approaches and only require those which are cost effective. To reject a safety improvement just because the inventor is advocating for it is short sighted, IMHO.

Mike

[Wayne Watling]

I'm not sure the technology would add much to a sliding table saw apart from extra cost.
Once you start mandating this type of technology where does it stop. No one is saying the technology is a bad thing but its expensive because it requires huge changes and additions to machine design/structure to cope with the forces etc. Typically the only person at risk is the operator unlike a vehicle or an electric circuit where any number of innocent victims could be affected by an accident, so it should be left up to the operator to decide for him/her self.

W.

[Mike Henderson]

I'm not sure the technology would add much to a sliding table saw apart from extra cost.
Once you start mandating this type of technology where does it stop. No one is saying the technology is a bad thing but its expensive because it requires huge changes and additions to machine design/structure to cope with the forces etc. Typically the only person at risk is the operator unlike a vehicle or an electric circuit where any number of innocent victims could be affected by an accident, so it should be left up to the operator to decide for him/her self.

W.
The Consumer Safety Commission, where I think this investigation is being done, will get input from anyone who wants to comment and will only require safety features if they can be well justified in terms of reduction in injuries and the attendant costs.

Remember that not all operators get to choose their saw. Some work in a company which purchases the equipment, and students at school use what the school has.

And even when an individual gets injured, the cost falls on all of society. Insurance may pay for the medical treatment, but that cost has to be paid by all the people who buy insurance (it's not free). If the individual becomes disabled, we all pay for that disability, both in the disability payments to the person and by the loss of that person's productive capability in society.

Safety features are insurance that you purchase with the product - something that will reduce the cost to society. Shouldn't that cost be borne by the person buying the product, and not by everyone else?

The key is "cost effective" safety requirements. I don't think anyone wants any more than that.

Mike

[Jude Tuliszewski]

Again, my apologies for being some what off topic. In regards to some of the comments that Mike H. made.
“There was a thread that went into all this in excessive detail a while back. Different people have different feelings about whether the inventor is doing right or wrong in trying to improve the safety of table saws.”
Detail is information, the more info the better to make an educated opinion. It appears that it is not whether the inventor is wright or wrong in improving safety that has some disconcerted, but the prima fascia reason of trying to push it in the saw manufacturer’s/consumers face. Safety improvements are generally looked upon favorably by most, and the saw stop is no exception as the market place and consumers will show.
“While the SawStop inventor can push his invention, I'm sure the committee will examine all approaches and only require those which are cost effective. To reject a safety improvement just because the inventor is advocating for it is short sighted, IMHO.”
If the saw stop inventor would have taken the approach he is now, by marketing his own brand of saw to “push his invention”, and not try to force mandatory compliance of the saw makers, after they turned him away, he would have avoided the negative attitude that some of us have. I for one think the mechanics of the saw stop are brilliant, and I am not rejecting the safety improvement, but I am rejecting the (seemingly) dubious path to acceptance the designer is taking. Don’t try to shove it down our (consumers) throats because you (the inventor) were not welcomed in by the saw manufacturers. As with a great many things, ultimately economics will drive the change in saw design to prove the saw stop a successful improvement. As market share of the saw stop grows, other manufacturers will get on the band wagon to keep up there market share. The comments about disability and insurance are well put and those factors will also stimulate further use of safer saws in the professional setting. I do not think it will take very many years for safe saws to become the norm. Just my .02 FWIW.

Jude

[Per Swenson]

Human nature just ticks me off.

Here in the sawstop thread again we have

people arguing a manufacturer's politics and

business model. Not for anything germane to the thread, you know good saw bad saw, but to offer their own righteous opinions from the SMC soapbox.

My goodness, we have gone from calling the inventor of what could be the safest saw in the world, a jerk, a lawyer and just about un American.

This, reason for some to never consider purchasing the tool.

That's fine. It is your right and opinion.
It also smacks of hippocracy.
Operate a windows based computer? Turn on the lights in your house?
Mr. Edison and Mr.Gate's politics and business models put
Mr Gass to shame in shear ruthlessness.
Or, if you drive a Ford, push the pedal with a Nike clad sneaker,
stop at Exxon Mobile on your way to Wall mart to buy more cheap
stuff.

The point of this?
The Saw stands on merit alone.
The rest , bloviation.

Per

[David Rose]

"Hipocracy"? It also might be called called "principle". Some of us don't drive Fords, wear Nikes, or shop at Walmart. I don't own a table saw. Saw Stop saw might have attracted me, if I wanted one, if not for their "politics". Fortunately, I have don't have to make that decision as I choose to do my primary sawing with a bandsaw.

I don't think this is human nature. I think it is the next step above that. But that is my belief and probably doesn't belong here.

I don't judge your choice of choosing the Saw Stop saw. It is probably a good choice! Please don't judge my and others reasons for choosing NOT to own one.

David


Human nature just ticks me off.

Here in the sawstop thread again we have

people arguing a manufacturer's politics and

business model. Not for anything germane to the thread, you know good saw bad saw, but to offer their own righteous opinions from the SMC soapbox.

My goodness, we have gone from calling the inventor of what could be the safest saw in the world, a jerk, a lawyer and just about un American.

This, reason for some to never consider purchasing the tool.

That's fine. It is your right and opinion.
It also smacks of hippocracy.
You know, if you drive a Ford, push the pedal with a Nike clad sneaker,
stop at Exxon Mobile on your way to Wall mart to buy more cheap
stuff.

The point of this?
The Saw stands on merit alone.
The rest of this is bloviation.

Per

[Per Swenson]

David,

Ahh, but your principled political opinion,
should that be considered by the person
interested in keeping his fingers?

Semantics aside, I wrote in generalities.
Steel owes no allegiance to principals.
Just good machining.

Per

[David Rose]

Per,

I've been in the "machining business" for almost 40 years. I have had many opportunities to get crosswise with machinery. I take a lot of precautions to avoid that.

I don't really care whether someone values my opinion. If they know me, they may value it. If not, then they won't likely. Either way, I want that to be their choice. I place great value on the individual's freedom to choose. This is where I get crosswise with the Saw Stop folks.

I am very happy that the Saw Stop saw seems to be a very good saw. I am also happy that they could not legislate (at least for now) that their saw or its devices be mandated. But I am one that believes the legal system has serious problems.

Hopefully, my statements will cost no one an appendage. But again, I think that should be the choice and responsibility of the operator.

David, who sometimes sets his bandsaw guide too high, but will blame no one else for it


David,

Ahh, but your principled political opinion,
should that be considered by the person
interested in keeping his fingers?

Semantics aside, I wrote in generalities.
Steel owes no allegiance to principals.
Just good machining.

Per

[Frank Fusco]

To me, the most interesting aspect of all the posts whenever a Saw Stop issues comes up is the quantity of responses. SS generates more passion than me griping about TOS.
I stopped reading most of them when someone pontificated that you could still get hurt with a SS if you slammed your hand down hard onto the running blade.
News flash for that genius......you can get hurt slamming your hand down on a circular saw blade even if it isn't running. :eek:

[David Rose]

LOL, Frank,

The tool that has "hurt me" the most in my shop has been the lowly chisel. Of course, mine are "scarey" sharp.

Daivd


To me, the most interesting aspect of all the posts whenever a Saw Stop issues comes up is the quantity of responses. SS generates more passion than me griping about TOS.
I stopped reading most of them when someone pontificated that you could still get hurt with a SS if you slammed your hand down hard onto the running blade.
News flash for that genius......you can get hurt slamming your hand down on a circular saw blade even if it isn't running. :eek:

[Wayne Watling]

LOL, Frank,
The tool that has "hurt me" the most in my shop has been the lowly chisel. Of course, mine are "scarey" sharp.
Daivd

I'm going to put together a partition to outlaw the "scarey sharp" approch to chisel sharpening, it just has to stop because too many woodworkers are getting hurt driving up insurance/healthcare claims. Sorry David you wont be able to do that any more.

I'm also going to give up woodworking and go head long into designing a device to prevent accidents from chisels, I'll then take it to congress and MAKE SURE all manufactures are required to fit that device to their chisels. By the way its going to cost $1500 per chisel...not a lot when you think about all the fingers it will save and the cost to the healthcare system, days of work etc etc.

What about spiked shoes for those living in cold climates with ice on the ground in winter, I'm thinking of inventing a new type of spiked shoe that I'm hoping will also get mandated into law. It will definately save the healthcare/insurance system millions in claims per year, how can you argue against a device that will add to your personal safety. The devise will probably cost you $250 per set of shoes but I'm going to force you to purchase this device whether you like it or NOT!

W.

[Wilbur Pan]

EXACTLY what Wayne said!! Great technology.....Unfortunately a jerk thought it up. Rather than promote his product as one might expect the inventor went to congress to enact legislation to require his equipment be installed on all table saws of 5hp or less.
Two corrections need to be made to this recounting of events:

1. Stephen Gass, the inventor of the SawStop braking technology, approached every manufacturer with this device, and was turned down by every one of them. He spent four years (1999-2003) on this effort. This seems like a reasonable effort at promotion to me, not to mention the numerous non stop demonstrations at trade shows.

2. In 2003 he approached the Consumer Product Safety Commission. What he asked for was that all tablesaws have a detection system that would stop a saw blade and result in a cut to a user no deeper than 1/8th of an inch. This would not necessarily be his. If the major manufacturers wanted to develop their own, that would be acceptable as well.

[Wayne Watling]

Here is an up to date news story of where the whole SawStop story is at. Hopefully people with a little commonsense have dropped the issue but I suspect not.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601109&refer=news&sid=aaomG4adRvHY

Gass is filing patents faster than than SawStop can stop a blade, I think eventually he will get his hands on our wallets. Obviously good technology, hopefully the big players will find a less expensive method to implement the technology into the saws of the future (without having to pay royalties to Gass (out of principle)).
When an ex patent attorney presents himself as the saviour of all woodworkering fingers and at the same time he himself along with 2 other lawyers work feverously at filing patents like wild animals then you have to be a little suspicious of their stated motives.

W.

[Mike Henderson]

Here is an up to date news story of where the whole SawStop story is at. Hopefully people with a little commonsense have dropped the issue but I suspect not.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601109&refer=news&sid=aaomG4adRvHY

Gass is filing patents faster than than SawStop can stop a blade, I think eventually he will get his hands on our wallets. Obviously good technology, hopefully the big players will find a less expensive method to implement the technology into the saws of the future (without having to pay royalties to Gass (out of principle)).
When an ex patent attorney presents himself as the saviour of all woodworkering fingers and at the same time he himself along with 2 other lawyers work feverously at filing patents like wild animals then you have to be a little suspicious of their stated motives.

W.
There's nothing wrong with what Gass is doing in filing patents. Our patent system is designed to encourage people to take risk and invent. A patent allows the inventor to profit from the risks taken if the patented thing proves to be valuable to society. Many things we use every day, like the lasers in your CD player, were patented at one time and the inventor got royalties for each one sold. But a patent eventually expires (about 17 years).

I'm sure no one would expect Gass to give away his inventions and patents. And, of course, other people are free (and encouraged) to invent devices which would compete with Gass' device and to patent them.

Mike

Let me add a story about one of the laser patents. In 1960, Charles Townes and Arthur Schawlow were awarded a patent on the laser (patent #2,929,922). However, Gordon Gould had also been working on the laser and had filed a patent application in parallel with Townes and Shawlow's application. Gould's application was initially rejected but after litigation, was accepted and issued in 1977 (patent number 4,053,845). Back then, I believe that patents were good for 20 years. This means that when the specifications for the CD were developed, the committee REQUIRED that a patent be used to implement the system. Gould collected royalties until 1997 (if I'm right about the 20 year life of his patent.

So what Gass is trying to do has been done before (many times).

P.S. for anyone who wants to look up the patents, go to www.uspto.gov (http://www.uspto.gov). You can do a search on the patent numbers (if I didn't make a mistake in copying them down).

[Mark Singer]

I have my SawStop running and it really seems like a great machine. Even ignoring the safety stop component it seems like a very well built saw. Fot me the difference in price is worth the price....just in case. Sometimes my son Ryan uses it and the peace of mind is worth it.
Just as I am glad that seat belts are manditory in cars...I am happy I have the brake mechanism on the saw. I have never been in a car acident where the seat belts played a role...its just nice to know they are there just in case. I have 35 years experience with saws and power tools and have all my fingers and.....I want to keep it that way!;)

[Wayne Watling]

I have my SawStop running and it really seems like a great machine. Even ignoring the safety stop component it seems like a very well built saw. Fot me the difference in price is worth the price....just in case. Sometimes my son Ryan uses it and the peace of mind is worth it.
Just as I am glad that seat belts are manditory in cars...I am happy I have the brake mechanism on the saw. I have never been in a car acident where the seat belts played a role...its just nice to know they are there just in case. I have 35 years experience with saws and power tools and have all my fingers and.....I want to keep it that way!;)

Mark,

It seems most people agree the technology itself is good and the saw itself is in a class of its own. The sticking point seems to be the mandating of the technology into law for safety reasons. Once you do that you are adding a huge burden onto the hobbist woodworker. Its okay for professionals who will simply pass on the cost to their clients but the lowly hobbist will have to absorb the full cost of the technology. You could argue that over time the cost will come down but I suspect with this type of technology that the cost can come down only so far because of the sizable additions and changes required.


Mike,

Obviously this has been done before, but if I didn't wish to use laser technology I could still listen to music via records, tapes or other media. In this case I would be required to dish up a ton of money (in the name of safety) if I needed to purchase a tablesaw. Its a little too much in this particular case and I hope that is what will keep this from becoming anything other than a discretionary safety system.

If schools, orgainzations and etc feel the need to implement SS technology that is probably a good idea, each organisation can make that decision themselves, but leave it up to the hobbiest woodworker to make that decision for him/her self.

I'm not saying that anything Gass is doing is new or illegal but I dont have to like or want any part of it and I am allowed to voice that opinion.

W.

[Alan Trout]

Being a business man myself I find what mister Gass is doing to be disgusting and reprehensible. I am a big beliver in a free market economy. It appears that he only decided to build a saw after he was turned down by manufactures. Well so be it. If his product is better then the other guys he will profit from his invention. If it is not better or the public does not see a need for the extra cost they will not purchase the product and he will fail as he should. But forcing a product on everyone is just wrong.

Now he is a hired gun for other lawyers so he can get back at the industry. Now he will try to force the issue with the cost of product liability so we all have to pay more one way or the other. Thats what I call a nice guy.

If he would have just gone out from the start and built a saw that kicked everyones butt I would have much more respect for him. I also bet that the other manufactures would be beating his doors down or would speed up development of their own safety devices to keep up.

I have no problem with the technology, in fact I like it but the way he has gone about promoting it has really turned me off and would not buy one of his saws for this reason alone. Which should be a right we all have.


Good Luck

Alan

[Mike Henderson]

Wayne - if you object to supporting Gass' technology, you can always buy a used saw that does not contain it. Any good cabinet saw has a life far in excess of the life of Gass' patent (about 17 years).

Mike

[Mark Singer]

Wayne - if you object to supporting Gass' technology, you can always buy a used saw that does not contain it. Any good cabinet saw has a life far in excess of the life of Gass' patent (about 17 years).

Mike

Excellent point! Just as you can buy an old car, at this point, a very old car that does not of seat belts or air bags......you know , when that accident happens....you will wish you paid a little extra for the new car and had the protection.

Most of the accidents I hear about occur with hobbiests that don't have the experience with machinery.....these guys need the extra safety if anyone does.

[Wayne Watling]

Wayne - if you object to supporting Gass' technology, you can always buy a used saw that does not contain it. Any good cabinet saw has a life far in excess of the life of Gass' patent (about 17 years).
Mike

As mentioned in my first post on the subject, I'm just about to take receipt of a brand new MM combo with slider. It should last for my lifetime so the tax wont affect me unless the MM dies and I have to purchase another new slider.

W.

[Jake Helmboldt]

Wilbur is the only one that bothered to post even some of the facts. Meanwhile others foam at the mouth while speaking half-truths or untruths.

Gass tried to get companies to buy into his product. They weren't interested. Wanna know the primary reason? Because the current (read ancient) design of tablesaws has implied danger that gets the manufacturer off the hook in the event you cut your fingers off. So the big corporate tool giants (you know, the ones offshoring their product to make more money) resist making safety improvements because they are virtually immune to liability as it currently stands. Boy, there is a business model that serves the consumer. I'm sure they don't have any of those slimy (corporate) lawyers behind that choice. Where is the wailing and gnashing of teeth over that?

As for the CPSC and push to have his product mandated; WRONG. He is simply petitioning them to require that saws incorporate some kind of technology, not his alone. This is about the only way we'll see any significant advances in tool safety because of the afforementioned incentive for the makers to do nothing. Gass is a small time operation that will make a ripple in the market. His market share will take quite awhile to build and result in the big boys from feeling the heat.

As for Gass making his own; he finally did so, but saying he should have simply done that from the start is absurd. Just getting a patent, much less getting a product to market is hugely expensive and burdensome for an individual. I applaud him for doing so.

As for cost, his contractor saw will be only a couple hundred more than the competition. And if a big company with an economy of scale had taken this on, the costs would come down quickly. Even in the event that safety was mandated we wouldn't see this huge jump in prices. Competition would keep things reasonable, and besides, there are so many existing saws on the market that there would be plenty of supply to keep prices affordable until the market stabilized with the safer saws well established.

Argue the merits either way, but please do so with all of the facts on both sides.

Soap box now put away.

[ed mirzay]

I know a few people in the real world (instead of online) that dislike the sawstop because the founder initially tried to force other OEMs to include the technology and they don't care for having anything "forced" on them.

Oh well, I know I will be near the first one in line when the contractor version goes on sale, supposedly at year end.

[Wayne Watling]

Excellent point! Just as you can buy an old car, at this point, a very old car that does not of seat belts or air bags......you know , when that accident happens....you will wish you paid a little extra for the new car and had the protection.

Most of the accidents I hear about occur with hobbiests that don't have the experience with machinery.....these guys need the extra safety if anyone does.

Mark,

Seatbelts and airbags dont represent a 200% markup in price of a new vehicle. I'm guessing at $1500 for the technology and some of the entry level hobbiest saws retail for $750.
So what is your limit, if someone invented/patented a product that guarenteed your house to be fireproof but it cost $1,000,000, But it would SAVE you and your family from the consequences of a possible fire, would you pay it?

W.

[Mike Henderson]

Mark,

Seatbelts and airbags dont represent a 200% markup in price of a new vehicle. I'm guessing at $1500 for the technology and some of the entry level hobbiest saws retail for $750.
So what is your limit, if someone invented/patented a product that guarenteed your house to be fireproof but it cost $1,000,000, But it would SAVE you and your family from the consequences of a possible fire, would you pay it?

W.
As commented earlier, the key is "cost effective". I can't say exactly what that is, but I believe the public hearings will address that issue in great detail.

Someone had earlier commented on the price of the SawStop contractor's saw but I don't remember what it was. I do remember that the price was not that much higher than an existing decent quality contractor's saw - so the stop technology (independent of the other parts of the SawStop cabinet saw) must not be that expensive.

Mike

Added comment - regarding airbags: For years, auto makers claimed that customers didn't want air bags and they would make the cars too expensive.

[Walt Caza]

Good Day All,
I find it interesting to note Sawstop is so often slammed for business tactics, politics and greed. I find it more interesting, as a woodworker,
to note I have not seen any negativity from Sawstop cabinet saw owners
and operators. We seem to be a happy bunch of campers...
When you are throwing sawdust, these things do not much matter.

In peace,
Walt

ps I do not take more chances in my car just because it has airbags!
:)

[Ben Grunow]

No way Dan, not going to turture my baby for you or any one else. Lets get together and hound Walt for some close up pics of his demolished blade and cartridge. Lets see it Walt.

FTR, I have extra cartridge for SS and dado cartridge as well.

[Mark Singer]

My suggestion is for those that can't afford or don't want to spend the money for the SawStop...don't! .... just use what you have and be careful! I am sure the SawStop is better than my old PowerMatic...I still miss the old dependable 66...everytime I pushed that switch that baby started up....funny how you can get attached to a material thing....and you can get attached to some SMC members and some .......pause....pause...not! (from Borat):rolleyes:

[Joe Jensen]

Mark,

Seatbelts and airbags dont represent a 200% markup in price of a new vehicle. I'm guessing at $1500 for the technology and some of the entry level hobbiest saws retail for $750.
So what is your limit, if someone invented/patented a product that guarenteed your house to be fireproof but it cost $1,000,000, But it would SAVE you and your family from the consequences of a possible fire, would you pay it?

W.

Where do you get those numbers? Have you actually looked at a SawStop saw? It's way beyond a PM66 or Unisaw. The precision, adjustments, and size alone put it in a different class. $500 more for the technology, maybe, but no way is it $1500. Plus, if someone with the manufacturing volume of a Jet were to implement it it would cost way less than the $500.

[Wilbur Pan]

Mark,

Seatbelts and airbags dont represent a 200% markup in price of a new vehicle. I'm guessing at $1500 for the technology and some of the entry level hobbiest saws retail for $750.
So what is your limit, if someone invented/patented a product that guarenteed your house to be fireproof but it cost $1,000,000, But it would SAVE you and your family from the consequences of a possible fire, would you pay it?

W.
One could argue that it's not the percent markup you should be concerned with in this analysis, but the $1500. By your estimate, the cost of protecting your fingers is $1500. This doesn't change based on the price of the tablesaw. So the question should be, is it worth $1500 to protect yourself from an amputation or permanent impairment of hand function?

One way of looking at this is to consider that the average woodworker that I've met seems to be in their 40's. If you retire at 65, that means that the average woodworker has about 20 years of productivity ahead of them. If you spread the cost of that $1500 over 20 years, that's $75 a year. So if you don't spend the $1500 for the safety feature and if you have a tablesaw accident, the only way to come out ahead for the average woodworker is to have such a small accident so that it results in less than $75 of lost productivity per year. Either that or be guaranteed that you won't have a tablesaw accident over 20 years. I have a hard time imagining any tablesaw accident that would result in such a small injury.

To put things into perspective, it can easily cost $1500 to replace a pair of driver and passenger side airbags, once they've deployed in an accident.

And, yes, I'd lay out $1,000,000 to save my family. Even if you want to look at this from a cold, hard, economic point of view:

Average family = husband, wife, and 2 kids.
Project average lifetime income of $35,000/year.
Everyone works for about 40 years (first real job at 25, retire at 65).
That works out to $5.6 million in total potential earnings that will be saved by a $1 million investment in safety.

[Frank Fusco]

Wilbur Pan said, "......the average woodworker that I've met seems to be in their 40's. If you retire at 65, that means that the average woodworker has about 20 years of productivity ahead of them. ....."

Most of the woodworkers I know didn't start until retirement at about age 65 (me included) and they expect to have about 20 years ahead to pursue their avocation.

[Wilbur Pan]

65? You seem much younger in your avatar. :)

By productivity I meant years of having a job as your primary source of income. Of course, I would expect that after retirement one would have plenty of time for woodworking. That's the whole purpose of retirement, no? :D

In fact, if you consider how many years post retirement one would have, then the amortized cost for SawStop technology gets even cheaper.

[Jake Helmboldt]

used to have an ad
"If you have a $10 head, wear a $10 helmet"

Saw Stop's contractor saw is slated to come in at under a grand, thereby making the technology several hundred dollars in that particular iteration. You could probably cut that in half in very short order with the economy of scale of a large producer. Corporate guys claim it would cost too much to retool their entire line. Yet this one individual (Gass) was able to bring this thing to market with a somewhat competitive price? The big guys are making excuses.

The rest of the SS premium goes into the fact that the saw is a beast. Local Woodcraft said it is the biggest trunnion he has ever seen.

Why aren't more people complaining about the fact that riving knives exist on every saw in the European Union, yet the virtually identical products here don't even offer that? As a consumer it pi$$es me off that these companies can't even do that. And I'm sure a lot has to do with the implied danger I previously mentioned that gets them off the hook.

JH

[David Rose]

Wilbur,

Look again. I thought Frank was already at least 80. :D :eek: :D I figgered he meant until it was time to get planted. ...not really... :D

David


65? You seem much younger in your avatar. :)

By productivity I meant years of having a job as your primary source of income. Of course, I would expect that after retirement one would have plenty of time for woodworking. That's the whole purpose of retirement, no? :D

In fact, if you consider how many years post retirement one would have, then the amortized cost for SawStop technology gets even cheaper.

[Noah Katz]

Leaving aside its namesake feature, does anyone know how good of a saw the contractor's version will be?

Is it really a plain old contractors saw with the motor hanging of the back?

Thanks

[Jim Murphy]

Regarding the cost when the brake is triggered. As everyone has already pointed out, it is cheaper than an ER visit. But as a recent purchaser of a SawStop, I was pleased to see that the company will replace the brake free, so the only cost is to replace the blade. The manual says (at p. 45):

"If the brake activated due to accidental contact between the blade and an operator, please return the cartridge to SawStop for a free replacement. During use the cartridge is constantly measuring data about the operation of the saw and the signal received from the blade. When the brake is activated, the most recent data is stored into memory and SawStop can download the data from the activated cartridge. This data is very important to our continuing research and development program. Therefore, contact SawStop to receive a free return shipping label and a free replacement cartridge."

[Al Willits]

imho....
Safety at all costs is one of them bogus statements that gets used when ever someone wants to justify something.
I'd/you'd/whoever spend a million/whatever to protect my family?
Have you???
You let your family in a motor vehicle?
Talk about unsafe....
I would think most do what they realisticly can to be safe, with what they have.

Unless I'm mistaken, nobody is against the Saw Stop or any safety devices, what some/myself seem to be against is the gov't telling us we have to have it.
Seems like a good saw with an excellent safety feature, one should give it a close look, because they want to.

If what's his name wants to patent the saw stop, more power to him. Those who want to pay the extra price, are more than welcome, those that can't or don't want to, so be it.
Personal responsibility, not the gov't mandating is what I'd rather see.

Same with seat belts for adults, but that's a whole new can of worms..:)

Just a thought, fwiw.

Al