Slider or Cabinet Saw?

[Doug Mason]

As a hobbiest woodworker, I use a cabinet saw and it does everything I need--with the exception of sheet goods--in which case I use the Festool set-up. However, I notice that alot of people on SMC seem to lust after a sliding table saw (myself included--even though I have never used one and, so far as I can tell, have no need for one). But at what point does one cross the line of having a genuine need for a slider? If one isn't a professional cabinet/sheet goods worker, what is the use of a slider? Perhaps just safety and convienince? And if a woodworker builds primarily furniture, would the slider actually be a disadvantage compared to the cabinet saw?

[Mark Singer]

A slider is great for shops where cabinets are made from sheet goods...like kitchens. The furniture or fine cabinet makers have a tradition of working with cabinet saws and that seems true today as well. David Marks, Sam Maloof, Krenov and most of the furniture makers on SMC seem to perfer the cabinet saw. I asked my friend Chris Federschon who teaches woodworking and a class in the tablesaw (he has a book as well he compiled on cabinet saws) and he said the slider just gets in the way. I like the intimacy of the cabinet saw. What comes of is a "rough" dimensioned piece anyway...from there it goes to the jointer ...planer...hand plane...back for final dimensioning using a sled on the cabinet saw.......so really...break down and dressing is an easy portion of the overall agenda in furniture making. A nice cabinet saw is fun to use also
just as you typically one find many handplanes in the shop of the sheet goods cabinet maker....sliders are not often the choice for furniture crafstman....they can be....but the cabinet saw still seems to reign

[John Renzetti]

Hi, I've been using a slider for about 8 yrs. I really like it. There is a learning curve, but once you get used to it, I you'll wonder how you did without it. Unless you are cutting a lot of sheet goods I don't recommend a large table of 8ft or more. A smaller table of around 50 to 81 inches will allow you to work comfortably with solid wood as well as cut some smaller panels down to size. In fact for most small shops I think the small slider coupled with something like the Festool saw and guides is the most cost effective way.
See if you can try one out. Stay away from the big sliders who excell at cutting down sheet material but could turn you off to a slider on your initial try.
take care,
John

[Ed Kowaski]

I don't disagree with what Mark and John have said.
Most sliders do not have dado capability which is a big deal for some.
Sliders cost considerably more, furniture makers tend to be cash strapped.
It's also partly a cultural choice I believe. Shops I visit that are owned by European born always have a slider.
I don't recall anyone with a slider wondering if they should get a cabinet saw.

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

From a new Convert to sliders
Mine has a dado.
I love this machine and I don't know how I managed to cut wood without it. It totally spoils you.

If you are asking that question then you have not used a slider - not a nice Austrian slider at any rate.

When I got mine I was just a tiny bit worried that the fact of that great big chunk of moving real estate would be an issue that I'd have to learn to live with all the rest of the time when I wasn't actually processing sheet stock.

Well Oh Boy was I wrong.
I built two router mounts. (1) is a permanently hung table at the end of the cast iron where the slider can run stock across it and (2) mounts to the cast iron table VIA the mounting hangar holes (12 MM I think) It holds a router right side up and it tilts. So thanks to the slider I have two Router options one with tilt. Woo Hoo

I keep thinking of ways to use the slider to do things I could never have done on my conventional saw - at least not nearly so easily if at all. An example is my dovetail jig. It is absolutely super, easier to use than either my Omnijig or My Leigh D4. produces flawless DTs and is infinitely adjustable for spacing and width. And I credit the fact of the slider.

I was diddling with an idea to turn it into a Log Processor by mounting a chain saw on a jig attached to the table. I nixed it cause my Sthil 036 isn't powerful enough to take the 3 foot bar I'd need to use.
I may re-visit the idea though.


The Miter fence has become my universal go to fence. I rarely use the rip fence as the slider makes ripping most things way easier and way safer. I also truct the Miter Fence's positional stops. I do not ever bother to check square-ness or angles any more because the fence is simply as accurate as I can measure - maybe more so.

DADO: All Saws made by Felder can have have Dado. I don't know about Altendorf or Martin. I ordered mine with that capacity and I bought the special three piece dado head. It is a sweet cutter with rotatable carbide inserts. It's got little scoring knives set on edge on the outer edges of the cutting faces that score the work to eliminate tearout.

One thing you may have issue with is the fact that you will have to work on Your left hand side of the blade because that's where the sliding table is.
I am left handed so it comes naturally.

I have relegated my old table saw to be my Abrasive cutting Wheel machine for steel. I won't even sharpen my old blades as I won't ever usethat saw again for wood.

My slider has an automatic brake. It takes about 5 - 6 seconds to stop the blade when you throw the off switch. It's a rather nice feature. Because of the brake you have to have a three hole pattern in your blades as there are studs on either side of the arbor. Forrest or any good grinder can modify your old blades for about $20. a pop.

Safety:
I think it's the single safest machine I have ever run. There is simply no reason to be close to the blade. The sliding table has a T slot (some have two) that runs the length of the table which allows you to use all manner of clamping options.

Down side: all those sleds you used to rely on to get any kind of accuracy will all become firewood.

[Steven Wilson]

I like square panels. It doesn't mater how big, or how small, if it's made of plywood, solid stock, or a combination (frame and panel), I like square panels. I have a slider, I have dead on square panels; always. Ripping stock is a little different but I'm able to do it at least as well as I did on a PM66.

Did I say that I like square panels? I also like the ability to crosscut anything with obscene accuracy. Did I say I like square panels?

As for slider size anything will work, you have some positives and negatives with the various size configurations but they will all work much better than a table saw.

[Gary Curtis]

I don't think anyone mentioned the notion of safety. You can clamp wood to the slider, while at the same time you are standing 30 some inches to the side of the blade during the cut.

Tops in safety, of course, stand the Euro format saws such as Felder, Mini-Max, Knapp. They have riving knives, a blade guard with builtin dust collection.

Having only used my General slider for 4 months, I can't claim to have a lot of knowledge. But, crosscuts are astoundingly easy and accurate. Plus, you don't meaure the wood and mark it. Just set the flip stops. Productivity is high.

The size of the table makes is superb for plywood, but annoying at times. On mine, at least, I have the option of unbolting the slider and outrigger and simply replacing the left wing table to return the cabinet saw to its orifiginal configuration.

Gary Curtis

[Kelly C. Hanna]

I bought one for my Grizzly and hated it with a passion. Had to remove it all the time for big sheet operations. A cabinet saw is better by a long shot if you like to change operations quickly like I do.

Now there is one exception.....Steve Jenkins has one that you don't have to remove....it is bigger than my truck and has a 16" blade....I'd surely like to have that in my shop, but it ain't big enough!!:D:D:D

[Craig Feuerzeig]

Once you have a scoring blade you will never go back.

[Jim Becker]

The only thing that keeps me from "switching" to a Euro slider is cash. I originally intended to move to one as part of my home addition project since I'm doing the cabinetry, but some unexpected expenses and a higher budget is likely going to keep me from that upgrade. Even though I don't work with sheet goods a lot, I like the idea of a slider for a number of reasons including the one that Gary brings up. While it presents a "different way to work", I find the utility it brings to be attractive.

Do I need one? No. I can make anything I need to with my existing tools. It's just a desire I have to embrace some different technology. (And I might be inclined to do a saw/shaper combo to compliment my J/P combo already in the shop) But that idea's on hold for now. Ching...ching...

[David Less]

Doug,

Based on the helpful info from this sight. choosing a slider over a cabinet saw should be a no brainer.

P.S. If someone would grant me two wishes:


http://gallery.clearvuecyclones.com/albums/Custom-Built-Godzilla-Cyclone/Knapp_KFS_20_ST.sized.jpg

http://gallery.clearvuecyclones.com/albums/Custom-Built-Godzilla-Cyclone/Knapp_Separates_end.sized.jpg

Good luck on your decision

David

[lou sansone]

I know this is an old thread, but I have just had time to read it. A couple of thoughts come to mind

1. a minimalist could argue successfully for a hand saw and a hand plane as the extent of their tools. knock your self out..

2. must have and nice to have are definitely different and each person has to come to some decision on their own.

3. I have spoken with quite a few folks who replaced their cabinet with a true European slider and have never found one who thought they made a mistake.

4. I am a hobbyist and intend to stay that way, but that does not mean I can't own tools that the professionals own. In fact, because I make my living another way, I don't have the pressure to make the tools "pay for them selves". As a hobby they never really will.

5. try a slider or visit a shop that uses one and see how they like it.


best wishes
Lou

[Rob Bodenschatz]

Cut it out guys!!! I like my PM2000. Now you're giving me buyers remorse!

[Frank Snyder]

Don't fret, Rob. I just bought a new PM2000 too. I'm sure I'll be lambasted for being too opinionated here...I considered sliders and combo machines a while back, and I felt that the cabinet saw and single-function machines best fit my working methodology (and my piggy bank). I do a lot of M&T joinery and I'm at home using a tenon jig on the table saw.

For sheet goods, my Festool saw and guide rail work like a charm. The thought of wrestling a 4x10 sheet of 3/4" plywood onto a slider doesn't appeal to me. It's much easier for me to just cut the plywood in place with the Festool saw. I'm not trying to offend the slider camp, but I see the cabinet saw as a more versatile piece of equipment than I do a slider. It's simpler to maintain and adjust, and cheaper to own. Sliders excel at processing sheet goods, but then so does does my Festool saw. Just my two cents...I still think sliders are cool :cool:.

[tim rowledge]

I've actually never owned anything but a slider. Now admittedly the first one was a Ryobi BT3000 but it's still a slider. It taught me that having a (relatively) seriously accurate mitre fence was a Good Thing. Then I got a second hand Robland X-31 which taught me that a 4ft stroke was good and powerful motors even gooderer.

Then I got an MM CU300 and learnt about the joy of a format style slider with a honkin' great table and a 12" blade. Oh and scoring blade.

The only downside of the big MM is the inertia when the entire sheet table is attached. If you're cutting a lot of small parts it acan be worth removing it to reduce the mass you push and pull - but the exercise isn't exactly a bad thing for most of us, is it now?

I've had 17ft planks of 14" by 3" fir on my slider for cross cutting. I doubt that would be convenient on a typical unisaw. A mitre guide running in a little slot just isn't going to hack it.

Add all the other conveniences (riving knife, decent guard, secure clamping, 12" j/p, mortiser, monster shaper.... I wouldn't do it any other way.

[Phil Pritchard]

I don't disagree with what Mark and John have said.
Most sliders do not have dado capability which is a big deal for some.
Sliders cost considerably more, furniture makers tend to be cash strapped....
I'm right with you there. If your work is predominently sheet materials such as MDF, MF-MDF (melamine-faced MDF), veneered MDF, chipboard, MFC, veneered chipboard, etc then through housings (dados/grooves) are generally out because they can weaken the structure - the alternatives are KD fastenings, biscuits and dowels. In any case rebates are cut much more quickly on the spindle moulder (shaper) or with a router - and that doesn't tie up your saw, either. So you don't really need a dado head. If your work is mainly solid wood then consider a table-saw with a fold-down or drop-on sliding table or a short carraige (slider) and preferably a scoring unit (another European thing) and live with the fact that you'll not be able to rip an 8ft board down the middle so easily. The main thing is get a retractable scorer unit.


I don't recall anyone with a slider wondering if they should get a cabinet saw.
No. Because if you've taken that decision then you're committed to sheet work and you'll get by with the slider when solid timber work comes up.

Maybe I'm biased - I'm on my fourth panel saw (slider), and my second Altendorf.....

Phil

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

I bought one for my Grizzly and hated it with a passion. Had to remove it all the time for big sheet operations. A cabinet saw is better by a long shot if you like to change operations quickly like I do.

Those after market sliders are (I think) hard to manage. And they don't come right up to the blade and they eat shop floor space like it was free.

I looked long and hard at them and decided on a real slider.

[Robert Mickley]

Ok I'm starting to see a trend here, now I don't own a slider. Nor do I have the desire to own one. I use a cabinet saw, and handle sheet goods on a panel saw which I bought used and cheap.

Sorry back to the trend

If you handle tons of sheet goods a panel (Err I meant slider) saw is good.
If your using dimensional lumber a cabinet saw is good

So the cheaper the material your working with the more expensive the tools? :D :D
Sorry couldn't resist guys

[lou sansone]

Ok I'm starting to see a trend here, now I don't own a slider. Nor do I have the desire to own one. I use a cabinet saw, and handle sheet goods on a panel saw which I bought used and cheap.

Sorry back to the trend

If you handle tons of sheet goods a panel saw is good.
If your using dimensional lumber a cabinet saw is good

So the cheaper the material your working with the more expensive the tools? :D :D
Sorry couldn't resist guys

I will let the pros comment with full authority on this concept, but I would imagine that lower cost materials have a lower profit margin and thus require greater efficiency in their processing to make a living.

[Robert Mickley]

I was just poking fun Lou. You give me a stick and I just gotta poke something ;)

[Joe Dusel (Vista, CA)]

I make furniture and cabinetry and I am on my second sliding table saw. The first was a Minimax and the current one is a Felder saw/shaper (John R. made me buy it). I personally could not see how I could work with a cabinet saw. I don't have dado capability on my machine, but to tell you the truth I don't really miss that. As was mentioned, it's nice to be able to easily cut panels, but these machines are also much better for cutting solid wood. I don't have to wrestle with big hunks of wood and a little mitre gauge when crosscutting, and doing straightlining of long wavy edged board is also easy with a long slider. Even cutting the ends off a benchtop or tabletop is no big deal with a slider. And, with the European machines safety is a number one concern, so riving knives and decent guards are standard. Felder sells something like 6 different splitters for their saws to go with different blades. My machine also has 5 OFF switches plus safety interlocks that prevent the machine from starting when you are changing the blade. I think that even a machine with a small slider (say 4') is much better than a cabinet saw.

Here's a link to my setup:

http://www.woodistry.com/shop_tour.htm

The thing the cabinet saws have in their favor is definitely the price.

Joe

[Ed Kowaski]

Phil excellent point about dado's weakening the structure. I've been preaching that for years, mostly to deaf ears. :(

Most of these man made sheets are effectively stressed skin panels or torsion boxes if you like. Long cuts, like dados, through a "skin" destroy the integrity of the panel.

I really don't like dado blades, I don't even own one. I'm on my fourth panel saw as well. :) A Delta RE-35, Altendorf F45, Holz Her upright with scoring and a Mini Max S315. I'm committed or possibly should be.

[Kelly C. Hanna]

I replied about the weakening but then re-read Phil's post and deleted it. I rarely ever work with those sheet goods...plywood only [except for MDF shop jigs or RAS tables now and again].