Fire extinguishers re-visited

[Bart Leetch]

I was advised by the people that service our fire extinguishers here at the apartment complexes not to ever purchase cheap plastic valved extinguishers because they will fail to hold pressure & about the time you need them they won't work.(this plastic is an oil based product & breaks down with age) The person that told me this explained that as plastic breaks down it shrinks & he showed me some older plastic valved extinguishers that had leaked down & we examined them along side metal valved extinguishers & you could clearly see why they had leaked down.

I have replaced my in home fire extinguisher with a metal valved one.

But being the frugal person I am I kept the plastic valved one around & just kept an eye one it.


This extinguisher has been around for about 5 years just long enough for most people to forget about checking to see if it still held pressure. Yep you guessed it about 9 months after replacing this fire extinguisher it failed & lost all its pressure. Its still full of extinguishing agent but no pressure. It went into the dumpster.

[Teri Lu]

Hi Bart,

I had to use my fire extinguisher some years ago in the kitchen. It is a dry chemical type and I only needed a quick squirt to put out the fire. My extinguisher is a metal valved type and the guy said it was much preferred to the plastic ones since he said the plastic ones usually break when they try to unscrew the valve for cleaning. It is still holding pressure after over 10 years.

One thing to note about dry chemical extinguishers is that any use leaves the powder on the valve seat which quickly provides a leak path for the pressurizing gas. Indeed, my extinguisher was reading no pressure 10 minutes after I used the quick squirt. The guy at the refill place suggested a CO2 extinguisher for primary use especially in the kitchen and a dry chemical for follow up if needed. The reasoning is that a CO2 extinguisher can be used and no leakage afterward.

BTW, I kept finding dry chemical powder in the kitchen for at least 5 years afterward. Another reason for a CO2 extinguisher! Only problem is that CO2 extinguishers are much more expensive because of the high pressure tank.

-- Teri


I was advised by the people that service our fire extinguishers here at the apartment complexes not to ever purchase cheap plastic valved extinguishers because they will fail to hold pressure & about the time you need them they won't work.(this plastic is an oil based product & breaks down with age) The person that told me this explained that as plastic breaks down it shrinks & he showed me some older plastic valved extinguishers that had leaked down & we examined them along side metal valved extinguishers & you could clearly see why they had leaked down.

I have replaced my in home fire extinguisher with a metal valved one.

But being the frugal person I am I kept the plastic valved one around & just kept an eye one it.


This extinguisher has been around for about 5 years just long enough for most people to forget about checking to see if it still held pressure. Yep you guessed it about 9 months after replacing this fire extinguisher it failed & lost all its pressure. Its still full of extinguishing agent but no pressure. It went into the dumpster.

[Randy Meijer]

I'm sure there is some truth to what the extinguisher guy says; but I would also bet their propfit margin is a lot higher on the metal extinguishers. I have my extinguishers hanging by several doorways and glance at the gauge every time I walk past them so unless the leak is catastropic, I will notice if the unit is failing. (As a minimun, folks should check their extinguishers every 6 months when they change the batteries in their fire detectors.....once a month would be much better) Additionally, I treat them as throw-away items and replace them every 5 years just in case. I do keep the old ones around as long as they hold a charge.

Same thing with those aerosol tire puncture repair cans......I buy a new one and put it in the car every Jan. 2. Cheap insurance.

[John Bush]

Fire code here requires me to recharge all the extinguishers in my bldg each year. My service guy shows up on schedule and does them, usually without me knowing he's been here. I usually like to discharge them just for practice. I was surprised that they only last a few seconds. I had purchased some of the cheaper styles from the Boy Scouts and he said they were good for only one season. Be safe. JCB.

[Bob Marino]

Bart,

Thanks for posting. Am I to surmise the KIDDE extinguishers (like the ones sold at HD) fall into the plastic valve catagory? Did he recommend any brands?

Bob

[Tyler Howell]

Good thread thanks.
In all my buildings we check them quarterly for discharge or leaking. They are professionally maintained every few years. Excessive, maybe for the average home owner but nothing wrong with checking pressure on a regular basis.
Good practice to light one off now and them out side and see how they respond under real conditions. Local FDs will often set up a demo and training session for small groups.

P.S. Obvious to the most casual observer:

Don't practice with the unit you are depending on unless it is about to be maintained or retired. They leak big time if even a little is released.
There are different kinds for different fires. check it out.

[Jim Mackell]

Almost without exception the extinguishers found at Home Depot or Lowes have plastic valves. Almost without exception, you should think of them as a disposable product with a 4 or 5 year life span and replace them at that time. Same as your smoke detectors.

Not only can the valves leak or fail, the powder inside can clump itself together into a solid unmovable mass just from ambient humidity.

When you replace your extinguishers try out the old ones. Most of them will work, most of the time. Practice aiming at the base of the fire, not the flame. Too many times the powder is blasted right through the flames and never is applied to the object that is actually burning.

[Cecil Arnold]

The NFPA standard for Portable Fire Extinguishers recommends (requires in commercial occupancies) that all extinguishers be inspected annually by an individual licensed/certified to do so. The inspection of a powder type would include checking for compaction of product, pressure, and amount of product (normally considered full if the safety wire is intact). OHSA, in commercial occupancies, requires a monthly visual check with appropriate records. The record of both annual inspection and monthly checks is normally fulfilled by the tag attached to the extinguisher.

So far as plastic vs. metal, you will pay somewhere in the range of $10 each to have a unit checked. Often you can buy a (plastic) unit for that amount. In commercial occupancies a new unit is considered to be accepted/okay for one year from the date of purchase.

Everyone should have an extinguisher in their shop, the decision between plastic or metal is economic if you properly maintain them. Where's Dale Thompson when you need him?

[CPeter James]

If your shop is heated or does not go below freezing, consider getting a 2 1/2 pressurized water extinguisher and filling it with a solution of water and dish detergent. The detergent acts as a wetting agent and is much more effective on wood, shavings and sawdust that eigher dry chem or co2. One other nice thing is that you can try it and get used to how it works for little of no expense.

CPeter

[Tom Jones III]

Cecil, any tips on where to locate the extinguisher? I put mine on the wall beside the door, I figured if a big fire ever started I would want to be near the door anyway.

[Kyle Kraft]

At my work they hold fire extinguisher training every so often. The company that supplies the extinguishers offers the "training units" for sale at a greatly reduced price. These are the industrial units not the BORG models, so they are refillable and servicable. Just a thought.

[Bart Leetch]

"I'm sure there is some truth to what the extinguisher guy says; but I would also bet their profit margin is a lot higher on the metal extinguishers."

I have know the guy that does the servicing since before he started doing this kind of work. So I'll just go ahead & believe him. Besides that the difference between steel & plastic seems very obvious to me.:)

[Rennie Heuer]

Cecil, any tips on where to locate the extinguisher? I put mine on the wall beside the door, I figured if a big fire ever started I would want to be near the door anyway.
I have one at each exit, for the same reason.

[john blanchard]

Is there an obvious way to tell if its metal or plastic just looking at it or is it listed somwhere?

[Jim King]

Even here in the Amazon hundres of miles from the nearest road we have a Civil Defense inspection of fire extinguishers every six months and we have humidity that you could only burn something with a lot of effort.
If you ever had a fire you would be a beleiver.

[Bart Leetch]

Is there an obvious way to tell if its metal or plastic just looking at it or is it listed somwhere?


Yes John the handle & entire valve assembly is either a cheap plastic black being the most common color or steel. Plus the price is higher for the steel valved extinguisher.

But safety is hard to put a price on.

[Cecil Arnold]

Tom, on the way out is about the best place to have one. C Peter has good advice on water type extinguishers, soap is a good wetting agent and for WW shops water is the best agent, however as many electrons as some of us are consuming a good 2A 10BC would be nice in case the electrons (or some of our VOCs) should get out of control.

One other thing everyone should be aware of. Fire extinguishers are "First Aid" devices. If you have a fire, CALL THE FIRE DEPARTMENT FIRST, then try to control it with the extinguisher. The guys in the fire house don't mind making calls when they are real, and besides they might enjoy looking at your tools and shop.

[Derek Johnson]

Alot of good points have been brought up about extinguishers. At the minimum, you should have an ABC extinguisher (dry chem). The following is for a Class A extinguisher:
Criteria Light
(Low)
Hazard Occupancy
Minimum rated single extinguisher 2-A*
Maximum floor area per unit of A 3000 ft2
Maximum floor area for extinguisher 11,250 ft‡
Maximum travel distance to extinguisher 75 ft

I am basing this due to the low or light hazard of a workshop. For heavier fire load (more wood chips/dust, larger area), you would use the moderate hazard. Just cut the floor area per unit in half to 1500 ft2.

I have 1 H2O Ext, and 1 ABC. I can charge the water ext. whenever it loses pressure with a standard compressor. All the above info is from NFPA. Being a firefighter/Fire Inspector has its advantages!

[Roger Bell]

So I am convinced. I want to order a couple right now. Can anyone recommend a brand and (web-based) source for the water extinguisher for the shop? And for the CO2 based unit for the house and as a back up for the shop? I want quality units with price as a secondary consideration. Help me out here. Thanks.

[Al Willits]

No expert, but I'd suggest put them (I have 4) where you'll see them, the more highly visible the better.

Having done a fair piece of welding/grinding in my garage, I found the threat of fire is very likely, and I've found when a fire start, most people are not quite so calm, and having multiple extinguishers make for less confusion.

For those who do a bit of boating, I have also found that you can compact the extinguishers powder so tight it won't come out when needed, I now rotate how the extinguisher sits during the year, and replace yearly.

Al

[Cecil Arnold]

Roger,

You will have to go to a fire and safety co. to find a water type extinguisher. So far as I know none of the BORGS etc. carry them. Check your yellow pages under safety. Forget the CO2, it's a too unit. Too heavy, too costly, and too limited. Get an ABC unit and worry about the clean up after you have to us it. Just my advice.

[Derek Johnson]

Roger,

Check with a local Fire department. They may have an old water can sitting around that they would like to get rid of. If that option gets you nowhere, Check your yellow pages for a fire extinguisher dealer. They should be able to get you one fairly reasonable. The CO2's are heavy, as said a couple times, so you should go with an ABC. Just make sure if you ever use it, clean up WELL afterwards!

[Herman Jeroue]

I think, if you want good insurance, you have to pay for it. The same is true with fire extinguishers, why skimp on something that might save your life someday? If you buy the cheap plastic valves and throw them away every five years or so you could buy a good metal valve extinguisher for the same amount of money you pay over a long period of time.
Metal valve extinguishers are also rechargeable.

[Joe Jensen]

I have a 3 car garage hobby shop. What extinguisher do you recommend? I'd like on that my wife can handle as well...joe

[Craig Walls]

You can tell the plastic ones at a glance. I agree with the earlier post...buy 'em and just keep an eye on 'em for loss of pressure. Also, every now and then give them a shake...it keeps the powder loose inside.

You defintely want your extinguishers by your exits. As far as use, there's an acronym (isn't there always?) "PASS". Pull the pin, Aim at the base of the flames, Squeeze the trigger (handle), and Sweep it back and forth. You can actually put out a large amout of fire with one if you are careful. I'd reccomend at least a 5 lb and preferably a 10 lb ABC in the shop.

Co2 is a good bet. One big downside is that they have no gauge and so must be weighed to determine their condition.

The water can is a good idea as well; however if the fire involved one of your machines or was near electricity, you'd be wishing for the other type.

[Randal Stevenson]

Reading up on these posts make me want to mention something and ask a question.

First, those water ones may be fine for wood, BUT DON'T shoot your live, ELECTRICAL power tools. (Think ahead, practice for emergencies, because some people panic and don't react/think well)

Second, the question.
While I have seen those kidde ones (tiny joke thingies) around, I believe I have seen the decent ones at Sam's club, reasonably. Also, check with your work, as most commercial business get serviced once a year (at least), and you can get them from them too (picked up mine new for $20).
Thank you!

[CPeter James]

I don't claim to be an expert, but do have over 30 years as a volunteer firefighter. I have about 6 or 8 10 lb abc extinguishers around the house and in my vehicles. Over the years many of them have beem used, mostly on other peoples fires (I did have a lawn tractor go up once and saved it). A 10 pounder will do a lot of fire fighting. They are rated 4A, 60B,C. I like the short, fat ones as the sit on the floor and are very stable. Get the ones with metal valves and they will last a lifetime. I also have about 4 or 5 2 1/2 gal pressurized water ones filled with dish soap and water. I pick them up at yard sales. They are all stainlees steel and have gauges on them so you can check their condtion easily.

CPeter

[David Rose]

Badger is the brand our local extinguisher inspectors carry. I have no idea if it is any good.

But my experience, once only thankfully, I was very disappointed. My unit is a 10# ABC and was freshly charged before we had a kitchen grease fire. Maybe these are more difficult than some fires.

Pan had enough grease to really burn. Wife took it off the stove and set it on the floor. At her scream I was there and grabbed the extinguisher. First quick blast and the flames just blew around some. Next blast, and I was careful on direction and distance from the fire, I held down the lever until dry. This was only a few short seconds. That still did not put out one pan of grease. By the time I ran around and grabbed a dish towel, the flames were fully back. The towel did the job.

For an electical or chemical fire, extinguishers may be OK. If I have a wood fire in the shop, I keep a gallon of water for that. The fire extinguisher is there too, but I'll go for the bucket first. If my experience was typical, a gallon of water should do about 100# of extinguisher worth of fire.

David

[CPeter James]

I hope something was wrong, either with the extinguisher or the technique. A 10 pounder will do a lot of firefighting - used properly. Did you ever get any trainging on its use?

BTW, Badger is a good brand

As for you bucket of water, double it effectiveness and add some soap. Much wetter.

CPeter

[David Rose]

No sir, I've had no training on use of the extinguisher. The only other time I tried one, was on a cardboard box that I set on fire to "play". Well, the extinguisher man was there to empty and recharge, and he did give me a pointer or two, but that's all. It did put out a large box, but it did that very quickly. I'll ask for more, next time he comes.

I thought surely there must be more to the extinguisher than my experience. While not huge, a 10#er is not a small one either.

Thanks on the soap tip. I'll do that. "Wetter" water, hmmm...

David


I hope something was wrong, either with the extinguisher or the technique. A 10 pounder will do a lot of firefighting - used properly. Did you ever get any trainging on its use?

BTW, Badger is a good brand

As for you bucket of water, double it effectiveness and add some soap. Much wetter.

CPeter

[Randy Meijer]

A 10# ABC extinguisher is about the equivalant of 4 gallons of water for an "A" type fire and 30 gallons fo water for a "B" or "C" type fire.

[Lars Thomas]

Costco is stocking metal valved extinguishers for under $20.00. I picked up one this weekend.

[Cecil Arnold]

A 10# ABC extinguisher is about the equivalant of 4 gallons of water for an "A" type fire and 30 gallons fo water for a "B" or "C" type fire.

Actually under the rating system (ABC) pounds don't mean anything. An extinguisher rated as a 2-A has the extinguishing capacity of 2 1/2 gallons of water (in the astonishment of a wood rick [oak I think]). When it comes to the "B" type fire (flammable and combustible liquids) the number indicates the size pan of flammable liquids the unit should be able to extinguish (in the hands of a non-expert user). An example being a 10 B extinguisher would be able to control a 10X10' pan of gas (they use pentane in testing). The C designation only indicates that the unit can be used on a charged electrical circuit and none of the numeric information attaches to it. Just to add to the confusion, there are D class agents used to extinguish metals fires. Back to the subject of pounds, one extinguisher company had the same extinguisher rated as both a 10 and 20 BC unit by changing the orifice size in the control valve, thus changing the discharge rate and increasing/decreasing the rating. It's surprising the amount of minutia you pick up in 30 years dealing with this stuff.