Rob's Workshop

[Rob Bodenschatz]

Alright, here we go. I thought you may want to follow along for the building of my new workshop. I'll try to post as many pics as I can of the progress and I'll try to keep everyone updated as much as I can.

I've been at the Creek for about a year now so some of you know me. For those who don't, here's a quick intro. I'm a novice woodworker. I've done a few small things but nothing I'm especially proud of. Until this year, I basically worked on a $100 benchtop table saw and a benchtop bandsaw. I enjoyed working on projects but the limitations of the equipment was frustrating to me. Not only that, but I knew my TS especially was very unsafe. So, this year I made a committment to buy good equipment. Already I've noticed that I enjoy this hobby so much more. The tools do make a difference. Some of my purchases over the past year have been a PM2000 table saw, Delta X5 6" jointer, Dewalt planer, Grizzly bandsaw, Bessey clamps, Hitachi 12"SCMS, PC air compressor & nailers, dust collector, router. Picked up a five or six Bailey planes as well. I've built a rock solid but inexpensive bench, built some jigs (crosscut sled, router dado jig), and bought some cherry & walnut (thanks Mike Morgan!). The only project I've really had a chance to work on is my mudroom bench/cubbies. They're almost done so I'll provide pics when it's presentable. Not fine woodworking by any means but I learned a lot while making them. Speaking of learning, I've picked up so much great info from this and other sites. I don't know how people shared information before Al Gore came up with this thing called the internet. Wait, I know. Books and magazines. I love woodworking books and magazines. I've got more than I can count right now. FWW, Workbench, Popular WW, & ShopNotes are my favorites magazine right now. Setting Up Shop, The Workshop Book, Tablesaw Magic are some of my favorite books. As far as formal training goes, I've taken one of Alan Turner's courses and hope to take more. I'll also be taking a six day course at Jeff Lohr's school of woodworking this winter.

Enough about me, let's get to the new shop.

It should be said up front that costs need to be controlled on this project. You already know that, though. True for every project. I'm pretty much at my limit with this thing financially. Because of that, I want to get the structure up now and worry about the things I CAN do later, later. Like insulation, interior finish, flooring (maybe?), dc, air, etc, etc, etc. That said, I'm trying not to do anything that would preclude being able to do some of the things I want to do later. I am not a professional WW by any means. I work full time as a consultant and own another business. I have a five year old, a four year old, and another one due this month. Between work and family, I only get a few hours in the shop per week. You may ask, "Then why the **** are you building a shop?" Good question. We really want to finish our basement. That's where my shop is now. So, in effect, I'm being evicted. Plus, the noise and dust has become an issue. Also, once the kids grow up, I'm sure I'll have more time to spend out there. I've worked in cramped garages and cramped basements, I find that I get more enjoyment out of this hobby if I can do it in an environment that is comfortable and organized. Another thing, while we do plan on staying in this house forever, you never know what the future brings. Because of that, I don't want to do anything that would hamper resale value. Or, who knows, maybe one day I won't be interesed in ww anymore. I'd like the shop to be able to easily converted to a garage if necessary. These things all affect my decision-making.

Unlike some of the more ambitious members here, I have hired a general contractor to do the heavy lifting for me. Simply don't have the time to do it myself. It's going to be a detached building about 20' from my house at the end of my driveway, land is pretty flat. Dimensions are 24'x36' with 10' walls and a 12/12 attic truss roof. There will be a subpanel hooked in from the house and plumbing will be run to the building. This structure will be visible from the street and will look like a garage, except with nicer carriage-type doors. In other words, needs to go well with the house. My closest neighbor is about a football field away. This is what we're working with.

Let's talk about the floor. Remember I said I'd like to revert back to a garage if necessary? That's part of the reason for going with a slab. That, and cost. I guess if I knew that this would be a ww shop forever and I didn't have to think about resale and the costs were the same, I would probably go with a perimeter foundation with a wood floor on top of that. I think that for the reasons I mentioned, slab is best. Now, I really want a wood floor. The whole creaky knee thing plus I like the looks of it. I've heard people say they'd laid sleepers and plywood down on top of concrete to get that wood floor. I think I'd like to take it a step further and raise a floor on top of 2x6s. This would provide enough room for dust collection ductwork and wiring. You may say, why not just lay conduits and ducts in the concrete? Well, I GUARANTEE I will be moving the location of my dustmakers. I would like to get in the shop for a while before I commit to locations for these things. Once they're in concrete, they're, well, set in stone. Of course, raising the floor will cost me six inches of wall height. I think I'm ok with that since my walls will end up at 9'6". Should be sufficient. Connected to this discussion is heating. I've heard a lot of people say to install radiant heating in the slab. If I were not going to raise the floor, I probably would. Raising the floor leaves the option open for installing radiant heating under the wood floor. Until then, I'll probably do some sort of electrical heating.

As I mentioned before, I'll have attic trusses put in for storage. I've played with the idea of putting my DC and air compressor up there but I'll wait to make that decision. Leaning toward scrapping that and building a small closet outside. Not a critical decision at this time since all I currently have is a pancake compressor and a Delta dust collector. No cyclone yet. I'd rather not have electrical or dc drops from above but I will if I need to. Much prefer to go under-floor. Leaving all options open.

Windows. I want lots of windows. I know all about the loss of wall space but I'm willing to work with that. Here's my plan: there will be windows along both 36' walls. The wall that faces my backyard will have four windows placed about 50" above the floor (I do realize I need to account for the raised floor). The opposite wall will have a strip of transom windows up high. This will let light in but still allow me to use that wall space. I think that should work well.

Lighting. I'll deal with that once the building's up.
Electrical. Same thing. Lot's of outlets on floor, walls and ceiling. I will be putting an extra conduit underground from the house. One reason is for the unexpected. The other is that I'd like to extend our home audio system into the workshop.

This shop will share some space with the lawn & garden division of the family enterprise. Because of this, I wanted to have plumbing run to the building. We'll just be putting a sink in. No bathroom. The house is close enough for that. There will need to be areas designated for lawn & garden tools. You'll see that on the proposed shop layout in an upcoming post.

The GC is getting the permit now. He should be able to break ground in the next week or so.

Whew, what a brain dump. I've provided the logic for some of my decisions but they're not all set in stone. Looking forward to your comments.

[Jim Becker]

Sounds like a plan to me!! Bravo on the windows...natural light is nice. I'm looking forward to this whole story as it develops!

[Craig Walls]

Wow, how exciting! My wife and I just finished our shop approx a year ago and I am loving life. You're going to like having it away from your house. Yes, lots of windows are great but almost as great is that wall space. We put a wall of cabinets across the back and with the two roll ups in the front that only leaves the sides. A lumber rack that holds 12' lumber takes up a lot of wall space! Planning! Planning!

Here in Alaska we have radiant heat and it is great. A word of caution: wood is not a good conductor putting tubes under the wood effectively insulates the floor and you will lose a lot of heat. If you do it that way at least place a reflective shield on top of the slab or it will absorb your heat. The system works best in a slab. They have these metal plates you can fasten to the underside but they are a compromise and not as effective.

Put in twice as many outlets as you think you need. 220 in several places. My preference was to enclose all storage incl bins, drawers, etc to keep that layer of dust off.

Have fun and keep us informed. Craig

[Andy Hoyt]

Hey - Rob. About that floor. My recommendation is to pour the slab (with or without radiant heat within – that’s your call) and forgo the raised wood floor. Buy up a bunch of rubber matting and lay that down for a comfortable walking surface. Sure this means that you'll end up with ducting within the shop and (probably) no floor outlets, but I’d like to believe that proper tool location planning and a well-schemed duct layout will mitigate the impact.

I’m a few years removed from the latest in radiant floor heating design, but I see a huge conflict between the installation (now or later) of a hydronic system installed under a wood floor that has no access from below and the vagaries of a ductwork layout which may need to be altered from time to time.

I'm also concerned by the structural logistics and detailing. It's a garage with a slab and a garage door. Will that door be located with its lower edge contacting the slab or the raised floor; and how will your garden tractor get in and out? With the door rigged to close at slab level perhaps an interior ramp in a cutaway portion of the floor would work, but that will chew up precious square footage. A door rigged to close at the raised floor level works better for you at the interior, but presents drainage headaches for you, your concrete guy, and that future buyer who will probably want a plain old garage.

It’s quite likely this will also be something that your builder will need to know the minute the site is prepped for footing and slab pouring; thusly becoming a point of no return. It will also add significantly to the cost of the project. How much? I dunno, but a whole lot more than a few hundred square feet of rubber matting, and letting the builder deal with the usual considerations, conditions, and standards.

Perhaps you have this already detailed, and if so I’d sure like to see it. Thanks.

[Rob Bodenschatz]

Andy, good point about the transition between the door and the raised floor. I actually spoke to my builder about that the other day. It will be a flat, garage-like transition from the driveway. If I were to bring the floor all the way up to the door, I obviously would need the door to open outward. Or, have a standard garage door (which I don't really want). That's fine, I was going to have the door open outward anyway. As far a garden tractor goes, I don't have one. I may get one in the future. I get your point, though. What I'm thinking about doing is having an area inside the door where it will remain concrete. You'll see in my layout below how I plan to handle that.

Remember, I won't be doing the raised wood floor right away. I want to get a feel of the shop before I put it in. It may be that I end up dropping DC and electrical from the attic and usings mats like you say. I just want to make sure I don't do anything that would prevent me from putting it in later.

Here's my current proposed shop layout...

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[Travis Porter]

My shop is close to the same dimensions as yours. Being that you are using 12/12 pitch (which I did), I had to put gutters up from the start. The builder/GC should have put the sidewalk that runs along the front of the building a 1/2 inch lower than the slab to prevent water seepage. The best I can tell, the steep pitch of the roof causes the water to accelerate fast.

Congrats and good luck. It can be a lot of fun and pain at the same time.

[Rennie Heuer]

Only half kidding.........Where are the toilet and refrigerator?

[Rob Bodenschatz]

Only half kidding.........Where are the toilet and refrigerator?
Valid questions. Just don't ask where the sofa and loveseat are going. :rolleyes:

As mentioned above (I know, easy to miss, I ramble), no toilet since the shop will be right next to the house. I never get more than one or two consecutive hours in the shop anyway so I can hold it if I need to. Come to think of it, maybe I will find out how much extra it would cost to rough one in in that corner next to the sink. Just in case I want it later.

Refrigerator. The shop is right next to the garage so the plan is to have a fridge in the garage. If I can squeeze a small one in the shop, I may do that.

[Kelly C. Hanna]

Very well thought out plans you have! Can't wait to see the progress.

[Art Mulder]

Here's a thought... the 12/12 pitch is pretty steep. Will it be all trusses or will you have storage space upstairs? If you have storage upstairs, it might be cheaper to put the compressor and DC up there, rather than build an outdoor shed. You can have the pipe from the DC drop down into the shop, so the actually shavings are in a barrel down at floor level. On the other hand, that does make for a much longer DC pipe, since you seem to be aiming for under-floor piping.

Neat idea having that wet/garden/dirty areay in the front, and then a step up to the wooden floor of the shop.

...art

[Jim Becker]

Just don't ask where the sofa and loveseat are going.

Don't laugh...Robert Tarr has both in his shop! Really! 'Come in handy for parties... ;)

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When you look at your layout, be sure you are considering work flow and leave space for manipulating/assembing/finishing larger projects. A knock-down assembly table would be useful in that regard.

[Andy Hoyt]

I hear you on the floor Rob, but I'm still bothered by it. By the time it does get installed you'll have gotten used to utilizing the entire footprint for your activities. And that stepdown effectively reduces the floorplan by roughly 25%, because you'll be tripping and stumbling all over it - at least I would.

Down off the soaper - let's get it built!:D

[Rob Bodenschatz]

Art: Yeah, I've considered putting the DC & compressor up in the attic. I am putting attic trusses up there to leave the option open for that. That, and I want to use the attic for light storage. Not a decision that needs to be made immediately since I'm leaving the option for both. I don't plan on building that closet right now. If I want it, it'll come later.

Andy: I hear ya. Not totally convinced on the raised-floor plan but I think I like it. Once I get the shop up, I can tape that area off & see how it works. Maybe I'll get one of those invisible dog fences and shock myself every time I go over the line. :D My mindset is to not eliminate either possibility. I think the only thing I need to keep an eye on is window height.

[Rob Bodenschatz]

Down off the soaper - let's get it built!:D
Amen brother!

My GC got the electrical and plumbing permits today. Said he can start within a week.

[John Bush]

Hi Rob,
I am trying to send pics to show the window arrangement but I am not a techie and have to wait for my daughter to show me how. I also have a 12-12 pitch that I added dormers to expand the room for an upstairs. this would give you more storage space as needed as well as more natural light. I have pictures of before and after hanging my ductwork and drops so you can get a sense of the visual change. I'll keep trying. JCB

[Matt Drewello]

Rob,

Just a suggestion. You may want to consider moving the location of your lumber storage. Bringing it from the front of your shop all the way to the back wall seems to be a little inconvenient.

Matt

[Alan Turner]

Rob
Looks pretty good. I like the fact that you have the larger tools clustered a bit, which will shorten your DC runs for the main offenders: planer and jointer; table saw; band saw. Where is the widebelt going?

[Rob Bodenschatz]

Matt, you're right about the lumber storage being placed in an inconvenient spot. I did have it closer to the front where you currently see the bandsaw and router table. The reason I moved it to the back was because of the window going along that wall. I'm willing to listen to any ideas. I don't really want to drastically change that window configuration, unless there's a really good reason to do so.

[Rob Bodenschatz]

Thanks Alan, that was the intent. I really wanted to have the bench/assembly area near the lower windows. Wanted to get some sort of power tool "work triangle" as well. DC plays a big part in that, obviously.

Widebelt. Hmmm. How about this. If I start the lumber rack five or six feet up, I could stow it under there? Do those things come on mobile bases? Don't know too much about them. You bring up a good point. Surely, I will be adding machines in the future that I can't anticipate right now. I'll need to keep that in mind so as to allow for some flexibility. Now do you see why I was nervous about setting the DC ducts in the slab?

One thing that I think it very cool about your shop (well, one of many) is the fact that you have your crosscut sleds stored under your outfeed table. They slide in and out very easily and you don't have to worry about finding a wall to hang them on. I plan on stealing that idea.:)

[Jeremy Gibson]

Rob,

Congratulations on getting this major project started! I've been looking longingly at a spot on my property for a seperate shop for several years to get out of my overcrowded piece of the garage. I've joked before that my lumber rack consists of leaning lumber against my wifes '67 Mustang (I really do!), but it also makes me ask you about storing sheet goods. My mental shop design puts sheets on their long side below the hardwood racks, or on their short side in a dedicated sheet good box. Do you have a place in mind for this?

Also, your shop size is about the size I would build given the funds. Would you be willing to share what you expect to spend on the enclosed shell with the GC and/or your final costs with finishing the interior? I know of a few places around my parts that build pannelized garage-size buildings for a little under $20K, including the slab foundation.

[Rob Bodenschatz]

Jeremy,

I have a spot on the layout for sheet storage next to the router table (says Plywood Storage). I plan to build a rack that will hold the sheets up on end. Seems to take up less floor space that way. Willing to listen to suggestions, though. Keep in mind the windows above where I have the bandsaw.

As far as cost goes, I did get some estimates in the range you mention for pre-fab & pole buildings. The range of the bids I received for this configuration was between $35K and $60K. I live near Philadelphia so you'll want to take that into account. Remember that this will be standard framing built on a slab with 8-10 windows, plumbing & electrical run to the shop, siding and roofing to match my house and 12/12 attic trusses. Once I started adding those things into the cost of the pre-fab & pole buildings, the overall prices started getting closer to where I ended up. None of this includes interior finishing. I'll handle that myself.

[Art Mulder]

Matt, you're right about the lumber storage being placed in an inconvenient spot. I did have it closer to the front where you currently see the bandsaw and router table. The reason I moved it to the back was because of the window going along that wall. I'm willing to listen to any ideas. I don't really want to drastically change that window configuration, unless there's a really good reason to do so.

Random ideas...

1- those inner walls that separate the shop from the garden/storage area. I assume that you plan to add those yourself? Why do you need that large an opening? You could make the one wall 10' long, (The one adjoining the plywood storage in your plan) and then you could use that wall for lumber storage, and it wouldn't obstruct any windows.

1b- further to that, I think a regular 3' opening - maybe with a door even, would be safer in terms of having less tendancy to trip, than you might have with this wide open 18ft long step.

2- further to #1, if you make a free-standing lumber rack that can load from either the front or the back, you could put that there instead of the wall, and save the expense of building one.

3- on a completely different note, your windows start at 7-1/2ft up. That is plenty tall enough for most wood racks, so I would argue that you could put the lumber rack against the wall and just have it stop below the windows.

4- you could also put most of your lumber up in the attic, and just bring down a few months-worth at a time and then you wouldn't even need that large a rack.

5- lots of people put wall-mounted racks for lumber above their miter-saw stations.

6- most of your hand work is going to go on the house side of the shop, where the workbench, assembly table, and clamps and so on are located.
If so, then what really is the purpose for all the cabinets under the miter saw? They're on the wrong side of the shop for storing tools. Jig storage? More lumber storage? Off-cuts?

7- the router table could be incorporated into the TS outfeed -- maybe in the bottom/right corner, as seen in your plan. 90% of the time it won't interfere with TS cuts, even if you have a bit/fence set up on it. Saves a bit of space.

8- your 4x8 assembly/finishing table is huge. I find 4ft is a LONG way to try to reach across. Sure you want it that large? And how high will it be? I've seen a number of articles wherein they advocate a lower table, so that case goods aren't lifted up so high. Or maybe an adjustable height table.

I wonder if a more compact 3x5' table, at normal bench height, might accomodate the majority of your needs. You could then add some stands or some such, for the rare times that you need something larger. Also handy would be some lower carts/stands on dollies for holding larger goods and making them mobile during the assembly/finishing stage.

9- since you don't really want the windows on the non-house side for the view, you could also put in a skylight or three just to bring in light. If you keep them low on the roof, I presume that they won't interfere with the attic space in the trusses. This is, though, probably more expensive than plain windows. You could also put in some solatubes (http://www.solatube.com/), which would be cheaper, but then you just get the light, you can't actually see the sky.

10- I bet you'll use the sink a fair bit. You may want to extend the wood floor into that area as well.

11- I hear the other guys on the issue of the step tripping you up. I wonder what the cost difference might be between a 6" floor on 2x6 (or whatever) sleepers, versus just rolling out some Delta-FL and screwing down some OSB. Sure, you lose the ability to route power/air/DC under the floor, but you also lose the potentially dangerous 6" step, and you still get the benefit of wood underfoot.

best,
...art

[Rob Bodenschatz]

Wow. Great stuff Art. See my responses...


1- those inner walls that separate the shop from the garden/storage area. I assume that you plan to add those yourself? Why do you need that large an opening? You could make the one wall 10' long, (The one adjoining the plywood storage in your plan) and then you could use that wall for lumber storage, and it wouldn't obstruct any windows.

1b- further to that, I think a regular 3' opening - maybe with a door even, would be safer in terms of having less tendancy to trip, than you might have with this wide open 18ft long step.

2- further to #1, if you make a free-standing lumber rack that can load from either the front or the back, you could put that there instead of the wall, and save the expense of building one.

I really like your idea of using a lumber rack as the divider there. I'm going to play with that tonight. I hesitate completely closing it off because I'd like to keep light from the front windows coming into the shop area. Not sure if that's necessary, though. I also want to keep the opening a bit larger than 3' for those larger tools and projects. Maybe 6'?

3- on a completely different note, your windows start at 7-1/2ft up. That is plenty tall enough for most wood racks, so I would argue that you could put the lumber rack against the wall and just have it stop below the windows.

If I do what you're suggesting above, the point is moot. I did have the lumber rack along that wall in an earlier iteration. One reason I didn't want it on that wall is I like the idea of having the long miter bench, a la Norm's. Putting the rack there would put a kink in that. I'll think about that some more.

4- you could also put most of your lumber up in the attic, and just bring down a few months-worth at a time and then you wouldn't even need that large a rack.

I could do that. The other option is the garage attached ot my house. We have a three car garage & only park in two bays. The ceiling in there is 10' so there's plenty of room for wood storage in there. I'd probaby take that route before using the attic, for the sake of convenience.

5- lots of people put wall-mounted racks for lumber above their miter-saw stations.

Yes, I've seen that a lot. It is a good space saver. My window configuration precludes that to some extent unless I move the miter station to the back wall. Which is a possibility.

6- most of your hand work is going to go on the house side of the shop, where the workbench, assembly table, and clamps and so on are located.
If so, then what really is the purpose for all the cabinets under the miter saw? They're on the wrong side of the shop for storing tools. Jig storage? More lumber storage? Off-cuts?

You know, this is an issue. I had anticipated storing handheld power tools there. Biscuit joiner, nail guns, jig saw, etc. But you're right, they should probably be closer to the assembly/bench area. What if I moved the miter bench to the back wall? That would allow me to put those tools closer to the bench area. It would also open up a lot of space on the bottom wall for stationary machines. Putting the miter saw smack in the middle would allow 12' to the left. More than enough. I'm starting to like this. I'll revise the plan tonight.

7- the router table could be incorporated into the TS outfeed -- maybe in the bottom/right corner, as seen in your plan. 90% of the time it won't interfere with TS cuts, even if you have a bit/fence set up on it. Saves a bit of space.

Yes. Good idea.

8- your 4x8 assembly/finishing table is huge. I find 4ft is a LONG way to try to reach across. Sure you want it that large? And how high will it be? I've seen a number of articles wherein they advocate a lower table, so that case goods aren't lifted up so high. Or maybe an adjustable height table.

It will be shorter. Not sure the exact height. I would consider an adjustable height table.

I wonder if a more compact 3x5' table, at normal bench height, might accomodate the majority of your needs. You could then add some stands or some such, for the rare times that you need something larger. Also handy would be some lower carts/stands on dollies for holding larger goods and making them mobile during the assembly/finishing stage.

Yeah, 4x8 is pretty big, isn't it? I think I'll leave it that way on the plan to save the space but when I actually build it, I should consider breaking it into smaller tables/stands/dollies.

9- since you don't really want the windows on the non-house side for the view, you could also put in a skylight or three just to bring in light. If you keep them low on the roof, I presume that they won't interfere with the attic space in the trusses. This is, though, probably more expensive than plain windows. You could also put in some solatubes (http://www.solatube.com/), which would be cheaper, but then you just get the light, you can't actually see the sky.

Definitely something to think about. I'm going to ask my builder what the cost difference would be.

10- I bet you'll use the sink a fair bit. You may want to extend the wood floor into that area as well.

That's something I can keep an eye on during my "test period". I don't see any big issues with doing what you suggest.

11- I hear the other guys on the issue of the step tripping you up. I wonder what the cost difference might be between a 6" floor on 2x6 (or whatever) sleepers, versus just rolling out some Delta-FL and screwing down some OSB. Sure, you lose the ability to route power/air/DC under the floor, but you also lose the potentially dangerous 6" step, and you still get the benefit of wood underfoot.
The underfloor power/air/DC is pretty important to me. Again, I'll determine how important it is once I get the thing up.

Thanks for all the great ideas, Art!

[Jim O'Dell]

Rob, I haven't read through all the posts yet, but I have a question, and possible suggestion, depending on the answer. For your miter saw, is it(will it be) a standard unit, or are you thinking about, or have, a slider? If a slider, you might entertain the thought of slightly enlarging your compressor/DC closet, and make a bump out for the sliding part of the slider so it doesn't take so much room inside. I've built a box bay window for my future slider. I get the additional natural light in that location as a bonus. Just a thought. Jim.

[Rob Bodenschatz]

I have the Hitachi 12" Sliding CMS. It is a beast but it's not as bad as some of the others like the Dewalt and Bosch because the rails retract into themselves. I'm leaning toward moving the miter bench to the back wall (on left in picture) so I'm not sure about bumping out into that future closet.

[Jim O'Dell]

You can still do the box bay window, even add it later. You don't have to have floor under it, I didn't. See: http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=14427&highlight=coolmeadow+creations
post # 27. But if the Hitachi rails collpase on themselves, you might not need the extra depth. Jim.

[Rob Bodenschatz]

Great idea, Jim. As you can probably tell, I'm not opposed to adding windows. I'll file that away for a possible future enhancement.

[Rob Bodenschatz]

I made a few changes to the layout. Most notably I moved the miter bench to the back wall to get the power hand tool storage closer to the bench area. I also cleared up some floor space along the bottom wall to allow for future machinery. Whatever that may be. I lifted the lumber rack above the miter bench.

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[John Bush]

Hi Rob,
Finally tutored in pic posting. These show the window configuration from the outside , the 12/12 gable with the dormers, and the 5/12 pitch shed with the two 4x4 skylights.

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These show the effect inside:

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I guess I need to enter another post to post more pics, so hang on! JCB.

[John Bush]

These show the doors I made out of the extra pine beams used in framing. I designed in windows and code required thermopane safety glass.
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These show the difference with and without DC ducts and drops:49932

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Hope this sheds a little light(cough cough) on how windows, skylights, and overhead stuff affects design outcome. You can also see how I designed the SCMS arrangement in the bench. You can see the future DC hookup above also. Any more info needed let me know. John.

[Jim Becker]

John, thanks for posting that little tour...it really shows how much natural light can greatly enhance the workspace! Wonderful shop!

[John Bush]

Hi and thanks Jim,
These are my first posts and for some reason two of the pics didn't make it thru. WHATUP!! ??

[Jim Becker]

Make a note of those attachment numbers and go to your User CP and delete them...and only them...by number. Then re-attach them and edit your post. They didn't survive the transition to SMC it appears...

[Art Mulder]

I made a few changes to the layout. ...

I like it! Looks roomier like this.

[James Duxbury]

Rob,

A couple of things. Your plan sounds great. I am a professional and this is what I have learned. A toilet in the shop would really be nice. It is great to run into the house but when your wife finds that pile of wood chips in front of the toilet a few times and a trail from the shop, I think you change your mind---a shower would be nice too.

Radiant heat is nice but it is slow to heat up and cool down. In PA you have to leave it on all the time because the mass takes a week to come up to temp. I would go with a forced air system. This is fast acting both heat and cool plus you can humidify to control static electricity and wood expansion in the winter and it also lets you filter the air so you won’t need one of those box filters hanging in the center of the ceiling.

Last is windows. Remember this is not a sun room. There is nothing worse than trying to run work through your new table saw with the sun beating down on it. Glare and reflections are not good. I would have a couple of windows on each end but really you need wall space for cabinets etc. You never have enough wall space. Windows get dust on them and look bad too.

Just my thoughts. Go at it & all the best.

[Kelly C. Hanna]

I love all the light you get. I also really like the ceiling's openess...you can never have too much natural light!!

I am about to add several windows to my little shop. All 5 will be double hungs made from old reclaimed wooden windows.

[John Miliunas]

Rob, thus far, looking good! I'm really glad you're putting as much thought into it as you are. I did somewhat the same thing when I moved into my present shop, albeit, the shop was already here and I had to work within its constraints. Still, it was floor plan after floor plan. I'd make one up and then visualize myself walking through it and working a project from start to finish. I made numerous changes along the way and, in the end, once I got everything setup, I'm probably about 95% true to the way I had my final plans laid out! :)

On yours, I would absolutely have a toilet in there! Like James eluded to, I think that in the long run, it will make for a happier home! Plus, seeing as to how you have limited time in there, even those few saved steps will help. Besides, if it's at all like my house, when I go in to use the can, I get "caught" by the LOML or kids and end up spending WAY more time inside than was necessary! I only dream of running water and a toilet over here...Way too expensive to do after the fact in my case. :(

And secondly, (consider the source on this statement) even with your modified plan, I see a major problem: There is no lathe placement!!! Wad up widat???? :confused: :D

I'll be looking forward to future installments on your shop project! :) :cool:

[Art Mulder]

And secondly, (consider the source on this statement) even with your modified plan, I see a major problem: There is no lathe placement!!! Wad up widat???? :confused: :D


Welllllll, be fair, John. Look at his first plan. Then look at his current plan, and I'd say there is at least room for a lathe in this one.

I was encouraging him to make space, cuz I knew you turners would be after him soon...:rolleyes:

[Andy Hoyt]

Yup - I'm voting for a bath as well.

Just think - you can leave the seat up 24-7 :D

[Jim Becker]

Just think - you can leave the seat up 24-7
Not if it was my shop..."I'm" the one that enforces the seat (and lid) down rules around here!! :cool: (Really...I do...) It's been tough to get the girls to do that, unfortunately...

[Chuck Wood]

Rob....

. No bathroom. The house is close enough for that. :rolleyes:

If I were you I would rethink the bathroom option. At least just a toilet and a sink.

I put a toilet and a sink in mine shop and I can't begin to tell you how much easier it makes it! Just my 2 cents!

Good luck on the new shop!:)

[Rob Bodenschatz]

Okay turners, here ya go...

49975

[John Miliunas]

Okay turners, here ya go...

49975

Ahhhhh....NOW you're talking, Rob! :D Much more better! :) :cool:

[Andy Hoyt]

Ahhhhh....NOW you're talking, Rob! :D Much more better! :) :cool: No, John. This is better.

49994

Hey! You opened the door, Rob! :D

[Rob Bodenschatz]

I knew I was thinking too hard. Thanks for bringing me back down to Earth, Andy. :D

[John Miliunas]

No, John. This is better.

49994

Hey! You opened the door, Rob! :D

Oh yeah...Sure. Like YOU don't do any flatwork!!! Yeah. Right! :D

Rob, you're on the right track! Andy's just been sippin' too much Moxie lately, that's all. :D :cool:

[Rob Bodenschatz]

Okay, you guys win. I'm going to put in a toilet. To keep costs down, it's gotta be near the sink. I need some help redesigning that corner. I want the sink to be incorporated into a potting area so I'd like it to be separated from the "bathroom". The window that's on the same wall as the door is not movable. The other window can be moved if necessary. I'll be working on the layout tonight but I'd appreciate any advice.

[Bart Leetch]

"Windows. I want lots of windows. I know all about the loss of wall space but I'm willing to work with that. Here's my plan: there will be windows along both 36' walls. The wall that faces my backyard will have four windows placed about 50" above the floor (I do realize I need to account for the raised floor)."

I think I would make a way to cover the windows from the inside when not in the shop you know out of sight out of mind. I have read about to many shop being cleaned out & no amount of insurance ever replaces everything. Many times if the thieves can't see into a place they may not try to break in.

[John Miliunas]

Okay, you guys win. I'm going to put in a toilet. To keep costs down, it's gotta be near the sink. I need some help redesigning that corner. I want the sink to be incorporated into a potting area so I'd like it to be separated from the "bathroom". The window that's on the same wall as the door is not movable. The other window can be moved if necessary. I'll be working on the layout tonight but I'd appreciate any advice.

Good decision, IMHO! How about if you take the counter space to the left of the sink and nix it? Put the toilet in that corner and then "L" out on the right wall with counter under that window. That way, you should retain roughly the same amount of counter space, not lose any windows and have a nice naturally lit area for potting. Maybe???? :) :cool:

[Rob Bodenschatz]

Thanks John. How's this? I eliminated the side window there so I could do cabinets if needed. Don't really need two windows in that area.

50146

[John Miliunas]

Looks good from here, though the main reason I kinda' thought about leaving the sink where it was at, is because, it might be too close to your power panel on that wall. I would definitely check with someone who knows the electrical codes in your area before I committed to that particular arrangement. But yeah, otherwise that's exactly where I'd put the can myself. :) :cool:

[Art Mulder]

Okay, you guys win. I'm going to put in a toilet.

No No No! Okay Rob, take a deep breath. :p You've just run into one of the major "problems" with discussing projects like this at SMC: the tendency to upsize. :eek: It's understandable, as this forum is loaded with all kinds of talented people, who have a lot of good advice about quality tools, techniques, and buildings. But you have to watch out and control your costs!

Let me remind you of some things you said in your original post...


costs need to be controlled on this project. ... I'm pretty much at my limit with this thing financially. ... I am not a professional WW by any means. ... Between work and family, I only get a few hours in the shop per week. ... while we do plan on staying in this house forever, you never know what the future brings. Because of that, I don't want to do anything that would hamper resale value.

Rob, you're a hobbyist, who needs to watch his pennies, and you're only going to be in the shop for a few hours at a time. You do NOT need a toilet. Heck, you don't even need a sink. (I just keep a squeeze bottle filled with water in my basement shop. It gives me the few drops I might need to dampen a rag for cleaning glue squeeze-out, or enough to fill a cup when dipping a paintbrush.)

All these extras bump the cost on your construction. You said you are at your limit financially on this. Well, drop the toilet and I bet you'll knock $1000 off the price. Drop the sink and plumbing altogether and ??

The choice is yours, of course, but I counsel restraint.

[John Miliunas]

No No No! Okay Rob, take a deep breath. :p You've just run into one of the major "problems" with discussing projects like this at SMC: the tendency to upsize. :eek: It's understandable, as this forum is loaded with all kinds of talented people, who have a lot of good advice about quality tools, techniques, and buildings. But you have to watch out and control your costs!

Let me remind you of some things you said in your original post...



Rob, you're a hobbyist, who needs to watch his pennies, and you're only going to be in the shop for a few hours at a time. You do NOT need a toilet. Heck, you don't even need a sink. (I just keep a squeeze bottle filled with water in my basement shop. It gives me the few drops I might need to dampen a rag for cleaning glue squeeze-out, or enough to fill a cup when dipping a paintbrush.)

All these extras bump the cost on your construction. You said you are at your limit financially on this. Well, drop the toilet and I bet you'll knock $1000 off the price. Drop the sink and plumbing altogether and ??

The choice is yours, of course, but I counsel restraint.

Oh, Art...You're just no fun at all! :D You do speak sensible words, however, you also need to remember that this is a long-term investment. Even Rob doesn't know when/if he may have more time to spend in his shop and then he'd really miss some of the conveniences. Adding them in afterwards would really be a substantial investment, many times over what it would cost to do it now. Besides, if it ever came time to sell the property, running water in an outbuilding is a BIG plus! :) :cool:

[Art Mulder]

Oh, Art...You're just no fun at all!

If he's in the city, the house is no more than 5 steps away, and I do believe LOYL would enjoy you stopping in to take a coffee/tea break every now and then and sitting down to chat with her.

If he's in the country... Well there are lots of trees around. :rolleyes:

[John Miliunas]

If he's in the city, the house is no more than 5 steps away, and I do believe LOYL would enjoy you stopping in to take a coffee/tea break every now and then and sitting down to chat with her.

If he's in the country... Well there are lots of trees around. :rolleyes:

Oh yeah...Know all about the trees and ducking behind my pickup! :D

As for your "in the city" thing, that's what I usually try to avoid!!! :p If I end up going inside, one of several things happen: A) LOML starts yapping about stuff in general. Result: Taking away from shop time! Lights, heat/AC running for nothing. Hitting my wallet.:mad: B) LOML starts giving me updates on her friend's divorce progress. Result: Taking away from shop time! Lights, heat/AC running for nothing. Hitting my wallet.:mad: C) LOML will actually take interest in the project I'm working on (for her, of course!) BUT, wants to make changes in mid-stream. Result: More shop time but, typically means this will hurt my wallet! :mad: D) LOML will find out I'm about 1/2-way through the current project and start showing me her scribbled next project. Result: Distracts me from the job at hand, taking away from current shop time and will, without a doubt, hit me hard in the wallet again! :mad:

NOPE, gimme' a toilet any day o' the week! IMHO, much, much cheaper!:D :cool:

[Jim Becker]

NOPE, gimme' a toilet any day o' the week! IMHO, much, much cheaper!

I can see it now...very shortly, trucks will be pulling up to John's office filled with toilets...one for each day of the week. :D

-----
Rob, only you can make this decision. It's always been my intention to install a convenience bath in my shop building, both for convenience (Doh!) and to avoid tracking all sorts of stuff into the house to use the powder room off the kitchen. (Not just around woodworking, but also when doing heavy landscaping maintenance, etc.) Only making the building "4 season" has prevented that as I have a waste line in place to the corner of the building as well as water into the shop. Due to the new home addition project, I'll likely not get to do this now for a very long time, but the plan remains in place if it becomes possible.

[Andy Hoyt]

..... hit me hard in the wallet again!.... John - I have the perfect solution for ya.

Get a bigger wallet.

[John Bush]

Hi Rob,et.al.,
I recommend both the sink and the toilet. The convenience of the sink will be immeasurable, and besides the time I save not running to the house to use the powder room, I've reread all my back issues of FWW and Woodworker magazines while taking advantage of my "in shop" facilities. I have also gained much praise for not tracking sawdust thru the house!!

From a design perspective, I was able to place the toilet beneath the stairs with the hot water tank and didn't loose much shop space. I have an old porcelain style utility sink near the stairs and find that I use it all the time. JCB.

[Rob Bodenschatz]

Alright, break it up guys. :)

The sink is staying. That's not up for debate. I've pretty much settled on that since it will be used as a gardening area. Plus, running water to this building will allow me to put in some spigots outside that will make things convenient for other uses like watering the garden, washing the car, etc. Not to mention shop stuff like finishing, sharpening, etc. It's cheaper to do that now than later.

The toilet, you're right Art, these things do tend to creep the cost up & I'm not taking these decisions lightly. I asked my builder to let me know how much it would cost to rough a toilet in. Since I've already got the sink, he said adding plumbing for the toilet wouldn't be too much more, as long as I keep them close together. A couple hundred dollars. If that estimate sticks, I'll go ahead & rough it in. If it's going to be much more than that, I'll do without. Note that I did remove one of the windows to fit the bathroom in. I'm hoping the amount I save from that window will justify the toilet rough-in cost. Then there's the sacrifice of shop space. That is an issue. I think I've fit the toilet in without losing too much functional space. Right now I'm leaning toward keeping it.

John, you're right about leaving the sink where it is. I moved it back to that side wall.

Oh, and don't worry Art, I can handle these guys. ;) Thanks for standing up, though. You have hereby been designated my Voice of Reason. Don't let me down. Especially when they try to get me to install a hot tub for those long cold days on the shop.:D

[Michael Morgan]

Hey Rob, Sounds like you have a great plan and I have seen the location and it will work great. Just make sure that it's a pretty straight shot from the driveway to the doors so i can back my trailer right up to the door so we don't have to carry the lumber to far:D
I will probably start my shop construction in the spring (I have about 20 other things to finish before winter and it's supposed to snow in the next few days:mad: ) I to will locate my shop away from the house, I have a nice spot down in the woods that will be perfect.

[Art Mulder]

... Especially when they try to get me to install a hot tub for those long cold days on the shop.:D

Y'know, I've always wanted an indoor pool...;):eek::D

[Kelly C. Hanna]

"Windows. I want lots of windows. I know all about the loss of wall space but I'm willing to work with that. Here's my plan: there will be windows along both 36' walls. The wall that faces my backyard will have four windows placed about 50" above the floor (I do realize I need to account for the raised floor)."

I think I would make a way to cover the windows from the inside when not in the shop you know out of sight out of mind. I have read about to many shop being cleaned out & no amount of insurance ever replaces everything. Many times if the thieves can't see into a place they may not try to break in.

Yeah! I subscribe to this line of thought because I love natural light. I will have windows on every wall when I expand to a bigger shop. French 15 lite doors will replace the barn style doors on my shop this year so I don't feel too closed in during the colder months.

[Rob Bodenschatz]

Definitely, Mike. I've already moved that stack once after you left. Wanted to get it inside for the winter so I moved it into my garage. I figure you can swing by & help me move it into my shop when it's done. ;)

My kids think I'm going to build the shop out of that walnut and cherry. I think not! :eek:

[Art Mulder]

Hey, Rob,

Here is a link (http://gansk.sasktelwebsite.net/new-workshop.htm) to a fellow up in Regina, Saskatchewan, and the story of the shop he built himself. It's just a bit over single-car-garage sized. I know him through the canadianwoodworking.com wood forum.

He's got a couple of very good ideas in there. In particular I like the way he did his lighting: just switched outlets in the ceiling, so he can move the lights around easily, if his shop layout changes.

The other thing is heating. He put reflective bubble/foil under the slab to insulate that (I'd put 1-2" of styrofoam, myself) used ICF's for the foundation, and well-insulated the rest. And on the prairie you can believe that insulation and heating are an issue!! :eek:

Worth a look.

[Jerry Olexa]

Hey, Rob,

Here is a link (http://gansk.sasktelwebsite.net/new-workshop.htm) to a fellow up in Regina, Saskatchewan, and the story of the shop he built himself. It's just a bit over single-car-garage sized. I know him through the canadianwoodworking.com wood forum.

He's got a couple of very good ideas in there. In particular I like the way he did his lighting: just switched outlets in the ceiling, so he can move the lights around easily, if his shop layout changes.

The other thing is heating. He put reflective bubble/foil under the slab to insulate that (I'd put 1-2" of styrofoam, myself) used ICF's for the foundation, and well-insulated the rest. And on the prairie you can believe that insulation and heating are an issue!! :eek:

Worth a look.

Art, that's a GREAT LINK....Thanks

[Rob Bodenschatz]

Here we go...

51220

[John Miliunas]

Here we go...

51220

And let the fun begin! :) Best of luck with it, Rob! :) :cool:

[Tom Henry]

Hope all goes well and keep the pics coming...

[Jim Becker]

Oh, yea!! Turnin' that earth is an exciting moment! Congratulations on the start, Rob!