selling a tablesaw waiver ?

[Walt Caza]

Good Day All,
After upgrading to a cabinet saw, I have arranged to sell my old 2hp 12" contractor tablesaw and 52" Unifence. My question regards liability.
If the purchaser were to be injured by the saw I sold them, could there
be any liability upon me?

Would it be wise to require them to sign something upon pick-up, that
says I am not responsible for whatever happens with the saw?

We have heard the old chestnut, that if you give a chimp a gun, and the
chimp shoots somebody, you don't blame the chimp...
(not to disparage the purchaser...)
But shop injuries do happen, and we live in litigation-happy times.

Besides a written receipt as proof of transaction...
Has anyone required a tool purchaser to sign-off with a waiver,
or heard of any cases where someone was sued about this?
(yes, I am in Canada)

Thanks for your thoughts,
Walt
:)

[Mike Henderson]

It would be better to get an answer from one of the attorneys on this board, but I can't see how you could be held liable if you didn't manufacture the saw, but were just a user of the saw like your buyer will be.

Of course, if there are any defects in the saw that you know of, I would think that you would have to disclose those to the buyer.

Mike

[Howard Acheson]

I would think that the only way you would have any liability is if you did not disclose an dangerous situation that you were aware of or should have been aware of. I can't see it being any different from selling a car.

If you made any modifications to the saw, you may have some liability if the accident resulted from your modification.

But, you should get the opinion of a lawyer if you have any concerns.

[Jim O'Dell]

I think I might take the saw blade off and that way the new owner is responsible for it's "correct" installation. Same thing with the fence. Jim.

[Doug Shepard]

I'm assuming you're turning the manual over to the buyer along with the saw? If so, I'm sure there's some legalese in there that pertained to liability with respect to you (the original owner) that would implicitly transfer to them - thus leaving you off the hook too ?? But I aint no lawyur.

[Art Mulder]

Good Day All,
After upgrading to a cabinet saw, I have arranged to sell my old 2hp 12" contractor tablesaw and 52" Unifence. My question regards liability.
If the purchaser were to be injured by the saw I sold them, could there
be any liability upon me?
...
(yes, I am in Canada)

Never heard of any such case, Walt. And I'm in Canada too.

Think about it this way - what makes the Table saw so special? What about selling a drill? A chainsaw? a planer? Jointer, router....

Heck, what about selling a steak knife or a pair of pantyhose?? (Not that I think you would be selling second hand pantyhose:p, but if they can be used to replace a fanbelt in a car -- yes I remember those commercials from 25 years ago ;) -- then they can be used to strangle someone.)

But I guess I'm digressing into intentional injury. Any tool can cause accidental injury. So can cars, stoves, bbq's, ladders, etc, and you've never heard of anyone suing previous owners for that have you?

(besides, there's no money in suing regular folks. You need to sue the large companies with the deep pockets...)

I would agree that they key point would be if you have made any modifications to the tool or not.

But of course, IANAL, as they say.
best,
...art

[Larry Fox]

I am also not a lawyer but it seems that there would be no downside to you in getting the buyer to sign a waiver. If it is unnecessary - great, you are doubly covered. If it every comes to issue - great, you have a waiver (for whatever it may be worth).

Whatever route you choose I agree with the other posters that you should;

- Make buyer aware of any mods you have made and non functioning / unsafe items you are aware of. In other words, things you would want to know about if you were buying.
- Remove the blade
- Remove the fence
- Provide the manual (if you have it)

I wish we didn't live in such a litigation friendly enviromnet and common sense would prevail but, as you point out, we don't.

[Tom Jones III]

I am also not a lawyer but it seems that there would be no downside to you in getting the buyer to sign a waiver.

I have been advised in the past by an attorney that the very fact that you asked someone to sign a waiver is almost an admission of guilt on your part.

[Larry Fox]

I have been advised in the past by an attorney that the very fact that you asked someone to sign a waiver is almost an admission of guilt on your part.

WOW - that is outrageous. That is quite the logical leap to say that by asking someone to take responsibility for their own actions that you are admiting some sort of guilt. Gotta love that. :)

Thanks for the info Tom!

[Tom Jones III]

WOW - that is outrageous. That is quite the logical leap to say that by asking someone to take responsibility for their own actions that you are admiting some sort of guilt. Gotta love that. :)

Thanks for the info Tom!

Why would you ask someone to sign a waiver unless you knew that it was dangerous? Now imagine the opposing attorney asking you that question on the witness stand. In 5 minutes he will have everyone believing that you club baby seals in your spare time.

[Larry Fox]

Tom, I would ask someone to sign a waiver because the tool - when used improperly - is capable of inflicting injury or death. I have no way of controling someone's actions. My interest is to indemnify myself agsint the tool being used improperly and the oerator being injured and making a claim against me.

However, if an accident attorney can get milllions of dollars out of McDonalds for someone spilling hot coffe into their lap - when they ordered hot coffee, then can easily make minced-meat out of me. :)

[Al Willits]

We're not suppose to club seals????

I think if I was worried about it, I'd contact a lawyer, not sure what they'd charge for a 5 min phone call, but probably be worth the peace of mind.

Al.....who has several clubs for sale.....right after he checks liability. :)

[Frank Fusco]

There's an old saw (pun intended :rolleyes: ) that you can sue anyone over anything.
Winning is another matter.
The U.S. Congress had to pass a law to prevent harassment lawsuits against gun manufacturers for exactly the scenario you are concerned with. People sued the manufacturers for harm done by people out of control of the company. Invariably the plaintifs lost but the cost of the suits were harming the manufacturers.
IMHO, someone suing you if they injure themselves is such a remote possibility that it is not worth fretting over.

[Dave Lehnert]

I think Tom is on the right path. But I'm just a woodworker so who knows.

I know of a retail store that lost a slip and fall case because they had signs up “Caution Wet Floor” Lost because they were able to prove that the store knew the floor was wet because they put up the signs but were unable to keep the floor dry. (Carts tracking water in during a storm)

[Sam Chambers]

Walt, make sure that all the safety equipment goes with the saw, including the blade guard & splitter, and the manual. Be sure to show the buyer how the manual says to install the safety equipment. I'd avoid saying anything like, "I've had the saw for 10 years, I've never used the guard, and nothing bad has ever happened to me." Here in the U.S., that'd be asking for trouble if the buyer got hurt later on by following your advice. (Not sure how things work north of the border, though.)

[Rick Christopherson]

My thought is, why plant the seed in the buyer's mind that they could try to sue you in the first place.

An attourney will not take a case like this on contingency against a private person, so unless the people are wealthy to begin with (or you are), they can't afford to sue you.

[Andy Hoyt]

When was the last time a retail tool store asked a table saw buyer to sign a liability waiver?

And if they asked you to sign one - would you?

[Bill Boehme]

I also agree with Tom Jones about this. A waiver that you write is completely worthless, legally and may also serve as a vehicle for raising questions about your integrity. Just do an honest transaction and remind the buyer that it is X years old and in used condition so it is being sold "as is" without any sort of warranty. Caveat emptor. And cut back on the caffine when a potential buyer comes to look at it.

Bill

[Kelly C. Hanna]

My first guess is that you are overthinking this one. I can't imagine anyone being able to sue you for their own ignorance and have it make it past the bloodsucker's office. The original manufacturer, well, that's another story.

[Ken Werner]

Well, I sure don't know what you should do, but here's my experience. I had a second hand Rockwell table saw, and was upgrading. No manual, but it did have the blade guard.

The fellow who came to buy it was an older gent, missing fingers. He went on to tell me about the various accidents he had, leading to his current state.

I excused myself for a minute, and wrote up a quick note for him to sign holding me harmless for any injuries he suffered from that saw. He signed it and bought the saw.

I know I felt better. Maybe it was irresponsible of me to sell the saw to someone with a bad track record. But that's my story and I'm sticking to it.

Ken

[tim rowledge]

(WRT hot coffee/ lawyers getting millions, stupid lawsuits etc)

As it happens, that is a fairly well debunked urban myth
See http://www.citizen.org/print_article.cfm?ID=785

[Steven Evans]

Well, if said person gets hurt and an attorney gets involved they will go after everyone in the chain from the accident back to the manufacture. Things will will cause you problems: missing parts(manual, saftey gear, warning labels etc..) Make sure you have not modified it in anyway. If you have, write up a liability release stating any facts and the fact you have made the buyer aware of such modifications or missing parts. CYA, my friend. I amnot an attorney but my wife is an attorney having delt with civil cases in the past. I have heard plenty of sad stories.

[Mike Canaris]

I sold my contractor saw last year,,...guy showed up..paid cash...bye bye ..

As far as I am concerend he got a good deal and a good saw...being a cash deal ,no receipt..my responsibilty ended when he drove 20 feet away from my house.

Why sit and worry about something like that...?