High End Planes

[Mac Cambra]

Being a relative newbie to this hobby I was wondering what the big deal is with with the high end planes from LN and LV. I have never had the pleasure of using one and I was wondering if their respective performance justifies the cost compared to an average Stanley plane bought at Lowes.

I know I said it, I probably will cause a collective gasp. I couple years ago I bought a block plane at Lowes, for somewhere around $30. I sharpened the plane iron on a Tormek, it is very sharp and still I am not getting the performance I would like. I chaulked it up to my experience and tool setup, but niw with all of the discussions dedicated to the tools I am not so sure. Maybe I just got what I paid for.

Can someone point out some of the differences that help to justify the expense or confirm my original suspicion that it isn't the tool it is the user.

Thanks

[Tyler Howell]

If you don't know I can't tell you!!
You just have to try them.:cool:
The best test is go out and get an old Stanley. Give it you best set up as a Newbie then take it for a ride.
Now unleash all the glory of a like sized LN. LN is plug and play, solid fits the hand and nicely balanced
The old Stanleys (I have 10 of them) were some of the best of there time. I'm so glad I learned to sharpen an fettle them under the watchful eye of a master.
You will never know until you try them both.
I don't recomend buying the LV or the LN unless your serious about using them. They are too fine a tool to let sit and collect dust.:cool:

[Eddie Darby]

Being a relative newbie to this hobby I was wondering what the big deal is with with the high end planes from LN and LV. I have never had the pleasure of using one and I was wondering if their respective performance justifies the cost compared to an average Stanley plane bought at Lowes.

Maybe I just got what I paid for.

Can someone point out some of the differences that help to justify the expense or confirm my original suspicion that it isn't the tool it is the user.

Thanks

I would have to say that the biggest difference has to be the "right out of the box" performance that a upper end plane gives the user. To get a Stanley or some other lower end plane to perform well you have to do a lot of "fettling". Some things can't be fettled either, ie. a thicker blade.

http://www.amgron.clara.net/planingpoints/planefettling/fettling.htm

This can be a blessing in the sense that you learn that a tool can be improved, but the time spent can be a drawback. The expense is in the "attention to detail", and that will always cost money. Is it worth it? If it wasn't then these plane makers would be packing their bags.

I like what Rob Cosman of LN tools in Canada said regarding the plane market. Everyone who is a serious woodworker will want to own a top-end plane sooner or later. It is just a question of how many steps they take to get there. That's were EBay comes in to sell all those planes accumulated along the way.

"Try it! You'll like it!"

[Mike Henderson]

This is just my experience so it may not be true in all cases. I purchased a modern Stanley plane a while back and found that the blade would not hold an edge very well.

I have a number of older USA made Stanley planes and find that they work very well. I've only used a few LN and LV planes but have found all of them to be very good planes that worked well.

If you're just getting started with hand tools, I'd recommend that you purchase a couple of older planes on eBay and learn how to tune them up, which is best learned from a more experienced woodworker.

BTW, one easy way to identify "older" Stanley planes is to look at the hole on the lever cap. If it's a "keyhole" shape, it's older. If it's "kidney" shaped, it's newer (assuming all the parts are original).

After you work with the Stanely planes for a while, try to get your hands on a LN or LV and see if you find any difference. If they seem "wonderful" to you, you can sell your Stanley on eBay and get your money back.

Mike

[Doug Shepard]

I've got a Stanley Adjustable Mouth LA Block Plane that works very well although the blade needs to be resharpened more often and it comes out of adjustment fairly easily. It was bought new about 15 yrs ago from a big box store and from what I understand isn't as well made as the older Stanleys. I also couldn't really get it to work worth a darn and chalked it up to operator error. About 10 yrs ago I got my first Lie-Nielsen and was amazed. The realization dawned on me - So that's how they're supposed to work. I've since gotten the Stanley to work pretty well, but not without some hours spent doing what the experts call "fettling". I think that's French for: time spent monkeying with something you'd rather spend doing something else, and shouldn't have to do in the first place for a new plane. I also wouldn't have had a clue that it needed fettling until I had a couple of good planes to compare it to.

[Mark Singer]

As with many things( skiing, wine, food) the finer end is more appreciated as you develop skill and experience.....there is a difference, my old planes collect dust now...they are not necessary to enjoy woodworking...older planes do fine for that

[Mac Cambra]

What I am getting from these responses simply put is that primarily there is a difference performance and secondarily operator error or lack of fettling can limit cheaper planes.

My goal is not to become an expert in making a silk purse out of a sows ear, not good at compromising quality. That being the case and realizing that maximizing value for $$$ spent what planes make the most sense to buy?

I am trying to build up my collection of hand tools now that I have a well equipped shop from the standpoint of power tools.

Chisels are another commodity that one can drop a small fortune on, good thing is the WW can be done for a lifetime and the tools won't go to waste. Thry seem to retain a good portion of there value as well, especially with knowlegable folks like we have here.

Thanks

[John Kempkes]

I just wanted to point out that for some of us, well down the slippery slope, even L-N is not considered a "high-end plane." I've got more invested in one plane than in my entire cabinet saw setup...

[Hans Braul]

Just gotta chime in here and tell a story about something completely unrelated. In my younger days my passion in life was rowing. I ate, breathed, slept rowing. It was all that mattered to me. Even with all that enthusiasm for the sport, I damn near quit after a season of rowing poorly fitted barges that couldn't go fast if you fitted them with a 200 hp Merc. When I first stepped into a real racing shell after over a year of torture, it was like the clouds parted and the sun came out and I said "Hallelujah!!". The conventional wisdom was that it was a good thing to teach the novices in barges. I say foooey on that!! If anyone needs the positive reinforcement of feeling what it's supposed to feel like, it's a novice.

I have spent years playing around with a couple of crappy old planes, basically fumbling around in the dark and almost giving up. Then I bought a LV bevel up jack. And right out of the box, there was this magical hissing sound as the thinnest most perfect, uniform shavings came off the wood!

Why torture newbies with garbage? Let's face it, LV an LN planes are superior to the oldies in almost every way. They are better designed, more sturdily built, more precisely machined, than any of the oldies I've ever tried. Maybe some people with more experience than me can chime in and disagree, but on the whole, I think I'm right.

So why put new woodworkers through the pain? I say buy one good tool, and try it. If it gets you hooked, then you'll buy more and keep making nicer stuff. If you lose interest, hell it's only a couple of hundred bucks.

There's my 2 cents.

Cheers to all!
Hans

[Mark Sweigart]

If you have no interest in learning how to fettle, this is how I would rate the options (with best bang for buck being the criteria):

1) Old Stanley, etc. that has already been tuned by someone else.
2) LV (their goal seems to be make the best plane possible and not have much interest in classical looks, brass, etc.)
3) LN

That being said, comfort is the most important thing. If you find one of the options uncomfortable, go to the next on the list.

[Martin Shupe]

Buy one and try it.

You can get a LN or LV low angle block or rabbeting block (a good first user, very versatile) for $150 or so.

If you don't think it is worth the extra money, you can always sell it on ebay and get almost all of your money back. (at least if it is a LN)

I attended a hand plane class at www.kellymehler.com. The instructor was Deneb Puchalski. The class was excellent, and even though Deneb is the son-in-law of Tom LN, he did not "push" LN planes (he really doesn't have to, they sell themselves). Several students brought older Stanley planes that Deneb helped them to fettle. Some turned into very good users. Some added new LN or Hock blades to their older planes, and they were even better users. Then there were the folks like me, who just bought new LN's, and spent much less time fettling and more time planing. It is up to you. If you have the time, buy the older planes, but know what you are looking for. I was told by someone that you want a Bedrock (which will cost you $100-400 on ebay, depending on model, then you still have to work on it) or late model (Type 11?) Bailey. How much is your time worth? For what you will pay for a good condition Bedrock, you can pay LN in the first place and get an outstanding plane, right out of the box.

Also, a word of warning. One guy showed up with some planes that he bought when a school shop was sold at auction. They were Stanley's, but when he asked Deneb for help fettling them, he said "don't bother" and that it was a crime that Stanley ever sold a plane so worthless. Then he showed several reasons why the planes were junk, and they all made sense to me. So, if you are going to buy older Stanley planes, make sure they are old and good ones. I think pre-WWII is considered the best.

In the end, it is up to you, but if you buy a LN rabbeting block, you won't ever look back. That's what I did, and I've been hooked on LN ever since.

[Andrew Homan]

Being a relative newbie to this hobby I was wondering what the big deal is with with the high end planes from LN and LV.

I'm a beginner, too, and I use a mixture of old Stanleys and new LN tools. I have to say, I get immediate, great performance from the LN tools. My Stanley #7 was greatly improved by putting a LN iron and chipbreaker in it.

This is of course just my opinion, but I would prefer not to call new LNs and LVs "high end." They may be expensive relative to the current batch of Stanley junk sold at big box stores, but are not expensive relative to what it costs to operate skilled manufacturing (along with product development and very good quality control) in North America today. It would be cheaper to outfit oneself with random antique Stanleys, but not with the ones that are on the approximate quality level as a LN (Bedrock). (In some cases, the LN is cheaper -- for instance, the iron miter plane). I'm not saying that LN and LV are cheap -- but "high end" might be better applied to new infill planes, or perhaps to "special" models that these makers might offer, like the current LN special, the bronze 4.5. The LN and LV planes perform at the level that good tools should perform at, so I think it would be a shame if this standard of performance came to be viewed as "high end"! It doesn't change the fact that the prices are a stretch for many of us, and that we can't all afford every tool we want.

I don't know how much fettling was required on a Stanley Bedrock plane when it was new. A new LN or LV will require only a final honing of the blade to your preference, which I don't consider to be "fettling." I consider this to be a real accomplishment of LN and LV. I've heard very little about Clifton planes and I wonder whether it is because they have not reached this level of fit and finish, yet still have a price tag that corresponds to the relatively high cost of labor in England.

A final note. I work wood as a hobby, and with a new baby at home there is very little time for this. That means that there are days were I am only in my shop for a half hour, and some days not at all. I've really come to appreciate my smaller LN planes, which are bronze (a block plane and a #4). There is so little maintenance necessary for these planes. I can go out back and use one of them for a half hour and return to the house without having spent more that 30 seconds on maintenance. With the iron planes I feel that I have to spend a bit more time on rust prevention.

-Andy

[Roger Nixon]

Mac, the modern planes such as Stanley have plastic totes, soft blades and poorly machined castings. Buying the plane and replacing the blade and totes would put you close to the price range of a LV plane and you would not have the quality.
The pre-WWII Stanleys have nice rosewood totes, most have laminated blades that sharpen easily and hold an edge for a decent period of time. If you are dimensioning wood with planes, the older Stanleys work fine. I've had a few hundred planes and only a few have I bothered with "fettling". For final smoothing or polishing it is necessary to flatten the sole of the plane but that isn't much of a chore.
If you use fancy woods, you will need better planes. My best tuned Stanley smoothers can't hang with my Knight coffin smoother or my LV low angle jack when the grain gets really tricky. On most North American hardwoods, my Stanleys can handle all the work.

[Derek Cohen]

Mac

Welcome to the world of handtools. You will find it addictive and, dare I say it, quite sensuous.

Some might argue that you will learn the ropes best if you do it the hard way, that is, fettle an old Stanley until it is usable. I would suggest that you get one, preferably a #4 (smoother), to play around with, but concentrate your purchase on a new working plane so that you have a tool you can use and enjoy immediately.

Mac, I get the impression that you would like to equip a workshop of handtools straight away. Big mistake. You don't yet know what they are for. Treat each one as a special purchase in its own right and develop a relationship with it. That is what a handtool is all about - becoming an extension of you. I would begin with a decent block plane from LN or LV, along with a smoother. For the latter I would suggest a bevel up plane, such as the LV LA Smoother or LN #164. These are versatile, easy to use and capable of superior performance.

Here is my LV LA Smoother:

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Planes/Newtoteandknob1.jpg

Do not fuss with "high end" planes at this point. Most of the LN and LV range are overkill anyway for the majority of woodworkers - unless you are working with wood that has much reversing grain. What I am saying is that middle-range planemakers such as LN and LV (and others such as Steve Knight, Clifton, C&W ...) will prove to be all you will likely ever need to build wonderful furniture. It is not the tool but the users skill that will need to improve.

High end planes are like this Marcow:

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Philips%20plane%20pics/Smaller1.jpg

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Mac Cambra]

You guys have offered some perspective and affirmed the age old addage of getting what you pay for. Further you have surprised me because I was of the belief that LN and LV were high end, I had no idea there were true high end planes that were an order of magnitude more costly.

I think I will be looking at the LN/LV more seriously now and hopefully with less cautious restraint regarding their performance.

[Mark Singer]

Mac,
There has been excellent advice given....the good news is if you buy a LN or LV plane and change your mind, the used market is strong and they hold their value which gives you the chance to get out without a large penalty

[Dave Anderson NH]

I just want to interject a little bit of reality here that we don't always think about. I could be wrong, but I would guess that over half of the folks here on the Creek are in the upper 50-60% in family income and perhaps I'm even underestimating the percentage. That still leaves a large number of folks who don't have either the kind of total income we enjoy or alternately have young families which limit disposable income.

We need to be sensitive to those who are not as fortunate as many of us. For some, the idea of going out and spending even $150-250 on a single hand tool is not a realistic possibility, or they have to plan carefully months in advance to be able to afford such a luxury for a hobby.

I would like to be clear that I am in no way criticizing anyone and their suggestions. It's just something we have to consider and keep in the back of our minds while trying to shove someone down the slippery slope.

[Mike Wenzloff]

Mac,

I often stay away from threads with certain key words, like high-end, best, etc., when it comes to tools and techiniques.

I would recommend reading Tyler's message again. Get a pre WWII Stanley, sharpen the blade, clean the sole a bit so it doesn't have gunk/rust on it, wax the sole with any kind of wax you have handy, and begin incorporating it into your woodworking.

That you have a block plane is a good start. That it may not be optimum for your use may or may not be true. Yes, the older ones are better machined. But take a couple pictures of it taken apart and post them. Make sure to show where the blade lays. We can help you make it perform better if we can see what you are dealing with.

Let hand tools prove their value to your work. Heck, it may sway you away and you'll have more money for wood.

Take care, Mike

[Andrew Homan]

For some, the idea of going out and spending even $150-250 on a single hand tool is not a realistic possibility, or they have to plan carefully months in advance to be able to afford such a luxury for a hobby.

Given what I wrote earlier, I feel that I should post a polite response to this. I included in my post the consideration that the price of a new LN or LV plane was a "stretch for many of us." Indeed, I am a person who considers the price to be a stretch, but worth it. I thought that I was clear about this, but now I read in Dave's post that there is "a bit of reality that we don't always think about." My post was the most obviously polemical, so I can't help but to feel addressed by Dave's post. I am sorry if I was unclear, but I really thought that that "bit of reality" was indicated in my post. Please re-read if necessary.

Just to make the point crystal clear: I can't afford a new car right now --- any new car, even the cheapest. But that doesn't mean that a new Ford or whatever is "high end." And I don't think that I should be made to feel guilty for suggesting that it isn't! ;)

Respectfully, but puzzled,
Andy

[Jay Knoll]

Sometimes what appears to be the most expensive turns out to be a bargain. A couple of years ago I decided to buy a jointer plane and thought I'd save money buying it on eBay. I got burned badly, the plane was a "rocker"; my fault, I didn't check it in the alloted time. So, I ended up waiting a year and then buying a LV bevel up jointer -- it is a wonderful tool.

I decided that there are too many variables involved in getting good performance and I'd rather wait until I have the money and then buy a quality tool with a good reputation and spend my time developing my skills in using the tool rather than buying a "beater" and getting it to a condition that is usable.

I respectively disagree with Dave's comment. I can't possibly know the financial circumstances of anybody else who posts here. We all make our own economic decisions. I welcome the advice I've received and the range of options that are presented here. I hope we don't hold back because we are making assumptions of what someone can, or can't afford. I like hearing about the economical ways to do stuff just as I lust after some of those big shops I see posted. Give me your best shot, I"ll decide if it works for me (and I hope you do the same with my advice when I post :) )

Jay

[Eddie Darby]

I just wanted to point out that for some of us, well down the slippery slope, even L-N is not considered a "high-end plane." I've got more invested in one plane than in my entire cabinet saw setup...

Yes LN is not the highest point, but go past it, and you will not get a better performing plane. So I would say that LN gives you the best bang for your buck, and say something like a Karl Holtey plane, gives you a good working investment.

[Steve Wargo]

Yes LN is not the highest point, but go past it, and you will not get a better performing plane...
This is simply not true. If the high end infills planes didn't work better then there would be no need for them, no matter how pretty. My LN 4 1/2 with high angle frog paled in comparision to any of the Sauer and Steiners I've played with. The Holtey's, and Hutchinson planes also outperform my LNs. Now the question that needs to be asked is... "Is it worth the much extra $$$ for the increase in performance?" Some think not, some think so. Other's buy infill planes because they're pretty. But to say that they don't work better is absolutly ludacris.

[Eddie Darby]

I've seen Rob Cosman of LN Canada, take a brand new plane, unwrap it, remove the blade, and sharpen it for around 3 minutes, and then produce 0.0005" thick shavings from bird-eye maple.

In economics it is called the point of diminishing returns.

[Ken Bryant]

Mac,

I often stay away from threads with certain key words, like high-end, best, etc., when it comes to tools and techiniques.




Mike! And just when I had begun to think of "Wenzloff" as the very definition of high-end saws... ;)

[Mike Wenzloff]

Still trying to get better...

I of course meant something when I wrote that--but what, only the Shadow knows...

When I teach a hand tool class or group, sometimes the questions tend to revolve around the best this, that or the other. And sometimes, the discussion will start based around the high price of this widget or that one. Or the best method. Or ...

There are no answers or often arguments which can be put forward that do not attempt to agree or dissuade. And often all that is accomplished is, well, nothing. Except an argument.

I like tools. They are a means to an end. Some of my tools are to put it bluntly, pitiful. Some are beautiful. All are functional and do what I need for them to do. Some cost me nothing. Some cost me more than another widget which would have been every bit as functional.

I enjoy making old tools perform their best--but I like making my new tools better. I have not ever had a new tool which could not be made better in some way. That goes for my saws, too.

The challenge for me is making my performance as good as my least performing tools.

Take care, Mike

[Mac Cambra]

Guys,

I dig the passion you all have for this but wasn't trying to start a debate of which was best or what defines high end, my primary question which seems to have been answered is there a discernable difference in performance. In this specific case it seems that there is a unanimous opinion that the answer is yes.

I have been burned before buying jigs or widgets that are seemingly expensive only to find that the results are no better or just marginally improved than what I was achieved before that being the case why spend the money right? It is not a matter of socio-economic position in sociaty either, I don't think I am ever going to be so rich that when I spend my money that I am going to not expect some benefit in return.

Anyway I really appreciate all of the inputs, spent a couple hours on ebay last night looking at vintage planes, placed a couple bids and I will probably buy a LN block plane for evaluation so to speak. It seems for me with hobbies like this most of the pleasure comes from the research and learning not just the end product that is produced, that is simply proof that I was successful in the objective undertaken. Don't get me wrong there is still pride associated with whatever is made.

Again thanks.

[Andrew Homan]

The challenge for me is making my performance as good as my least performing tools.

Well said! However, for beginners (like me), the challenge is sometimes to figure out what is not working due to the tool and what is not working due to technique. For me, with my first major plane, an old #7, I could only get "woody" (thick) shavings. I could tell that the blade and chipbreaker needed work but couldn't accomplish that on my own with the equipment I had in my shop and the level of knowledge and skill that I lacked. Eventually, I upgraded these components and now I see what the plane can accomplish. Only now can I work toward what you said about making my performance -- in both planing and sharpening -- as good as my least performing tools.

I've been reading this forum and others for months and have often noted the assumption that "you can get a 60 1/2 for $5" etc. as well as "what you need is this $250 new plane". I think that there is a place for both of these sentiments, and both have their drawbacks as well. For a beginner who doesn't have an "in-person" buddy who already uses handtools, I think it's important to hear both kinds of opinions. These threads do, however, seem to repeat on a cyclical basis. Perhaps if there were more FAQs posted on the web, from a variety of viewpoints, we would see fewer of these threads.

-Andy

[Dave Anderson NH]

Andrew, I wasn't aiming my post at anyone in particular or even responding on what is high end. I'm only bringing up the point so that folks remember that not everyone has the same resources.

I neither want nor expect anyone to hold back on their viewpoints about tool choices regardless of whether it's new or old, inexpensive or high end, or any other category. Free discussion with respect for the viewpoint of others is what this forum is all about. I was only trying to bring up something we sometimes forget. The vast majority of posters and lurkers on this site generally fit the standard woodworking demographic of male, over 35, family income at the higher end, etc, etc.

[Eddie Darby]

Anyway I really appreciate all of the inputs, spent a couple hours on ebay last night looking at vintage planes, placed a couple bids and I will probably buy a LN block plane for evaluation so to speak.
Again thanks.

I hope that everthing works out for you and that you are up to your ears in wood shavings in no time!!! :)

[Terek Johnson]

Whew... Where to start. So many avenues for discussion. My own handplane experience has run the gamut: the first plane I bought was a brand new Stanley #4. At the time just making shavings was good enough. As time went on (as I compared my results to others), I began to seek a little more refinement in my work. Next stop old Stanleys (when I say old, like 40's or older). And I immediately enjoyed and appreciated the better quality materials (wow! wood handles), and closer tolerances (and I still do). After years of happily planning away with an old flea-market type 11 #4 and garage-sale type 12 #7, the lure of Lie-Nielsen slowly began creeping into my subconscious. A few months ago I took the plunge and bought a new L-N #4. Whoa mama! That'sa one spicy meatball. They are nice, oh so nice. But... as has been so aptly addressed earlier: what's the primary wood species you work with? L-N's really make cherry shine like a diamond in an almost effortless way. They work great on softwoods too. But in my own experimenting, I've found old Stanleys work just as nice as a L-N on softwoods for a lot less moolah.
The primary difference I've noticed between my old Stanleys and the L-N is the presence in your hand. L-N's are noticably heavier than Stanleys, and that weight difference results in a different feel in your hands as your working the wood. It's difficult to really convey it accurately. The other major difference is the blades. The L-N blades are freakin' massive! When you sharpen them up good, they slice like butter.
The best thing you could do is find a woodworking shop that will allow you to test drive a couple of different brands.
Ultimately, I think you do get what you pay for. But, having said that, I'm not rushing out to outfit my shop in nothing by L-N, for most of what you need a plane for, decent old Stanleys are fine.