Shaper questions

[Bob Dodge]

I'm looking to buy my first shaper, and would appreciate some guidance.

I had originally thought that I'd be doing raised-panels, and rail & stile work. Moldings, I'll leave to a dedicated molder.

While I believe I'd have a broader selection of cutters with a 1 1/4" spindle, I'm reasonably certain I'd find everything I need in 3/4". I'm only starting to look seriously at tooling, so my information base is very limited at this point. I find the concept of insert-tooling interesting, but from what I gather so far, I may have to go with a heavier 1 1/4" spindle machine in the 5 hp category in order to take full advantage of the insert heads.

After looking at several machines recently, I found that the 3 hp Delta would be a great 3/4" spindle machine, however, prices here in Canada have skyrocketted lately. I'm looking at $3,000. for one of those (after taxes). I'm therefore looking at the "used" market, for either that Delta, or an old Poitras/General. I've even considered going with a 5 HP Asian shaper, mostly because it would be cheaper for me than the 3 HP Delta, and I'd have a 1 1/4" spindle, 4-speed reversible machine, weighing around 650 lbs. Many vendors it seems, sell this identical machine under their banner.

http://www.kingcanada.com/Products.htm?CD=118&ID=106

Recently, I've also come across a 3 hp Asian shaper, which is again sold by almost everyone, including General International, King Industrial, Steel-City, and many more. It's a 2-speed reversible, 3/4" spindle machine. I'm wondering if anybody has purchased one of these, and curious about your impressions to date.

http://www.general.ca/pagemach/machines/40250a.html

http://www.kingcanada.com/Products.htm?CD=118&ID=12009

This would be my first Asian woodworking machine, and I'll admit I'm a little skeptical regarding vibration, quality, and durability. This machine will not see "production runs". I do expect reliability however, and a machine that's pleasant to use, and not having to constantly tweek the machine to get it to perform properly. Am I barking up the wrong tree?

I'd also be looking to add a medium-sized power-feeder, probably in the 1/4 HP to 1/2 HP range. I'd be looking for "reverse", as well as 'suitable feed-rates. Most of the 1/4 and 1/2 hp feeders, seem to have a 20 FPM minimum feed-rate. Is that too fast? Many of the heavier 1 hp units offer a broader speed-range, especially at the low-end, however, I'm thinking those feeders are just simply too heavy to be installed on such a small shaper. Those feeders usually range around the 150 lb. mark. The smaller feeders weigh-in at roughly 75-90 lbs.

Thanks in advance for your comments.

Bob

[Travis Porter]

The LOML recently got me the 3 HP Delta X5 for my birthday. I am new to using a shaper overall. I can say I have no complaints with this machine. The table is large, and raising a panel in a single pass compared to the router was something to see.

I do not have a power feed, but I am looking around for a used one as well. So far, I am thinking I want one with 4 wheels and 4 speeds. I missed out on a Comatic brand (which I think is who makes the Delta, but I am not sure) for $180, and I could kick myself now. The Delta versa doesn't seem to be as flexible due to the way it mounts, but that is just my impression not based on any facts.

[Jim Hager]

Bob, I have three shapers, two delta 3 hp's and one Enlon 3hp sliding table shaper. Of course the delta shapers are nice shapers but that is mostly because of the fence system that they have on theirs. I make raised panel doors for local contractors as well as make doors for my own cabinet projects and so far the 3/4" spindle machines are all I have needed. I probaly have made nearly 2000 doors in the last year and have had no problems at all with the 3/4" spindles.

The asian machines you mention will likely be a little less quality in the fit and finish but will rival the Delta machine with everything but the fence. The asian machine fences are more difficult to adjust and more difficult to get to stay put once set.


I use my Enlon shaper only for coping ends and it doesn't get adjusted except to change cutters from one style to the other. One of my Delta shapers stays equipped with the panel raiser and the other is the one that I change out from stick cutter to edge profile.

If you are not gonna be runnin big, really big orders you will do just fine and dandy with the smaller machine. The vote for Delta or Asian should rest on what kind of fence you want to use.

[Steve Rowe]

Bob,
20+ years ago, I purchased an Taiwanese made 3HP shaper similar to those you are looking at. The manufacturer was Champ Fond. It had interchangeable spindles 1/2", 3/4", 1", 1-1/4" and a router collet. The spindles I most often used were the 3/4" and 1-1/4". If I were in the market for one today, I would like the option for both of these spindle sizes.

Overall, it was of fairly good quality and the surface finish of the table was very good. The fence and its adjustments left a lot to be desired. It handled everything that I threw at it and never gave me any trouble to the day I sold it.

I did not use a power feeder on that shaper but on my current unit, I use a 1 HP model. It does weight about 150 lbs but, I am not convinced it is too big for a 3HP shaper.

Steve

[lou sansone]

bob
I have the delta platinum shaper and it has been fine. I am thinking of replacing it with a tilting spindle /sliding table shaper for my work. The fence is pretty nice on the delta. When I first bought it, I thought that I could not run my old router bits in it. I have found that for most everything, the router bits run just fine. I do have shaper tooling as well and they are real nice. I do one of a kind 18th century reproductions so each molding is special. I currently use one style of tooling for most of my doors. I probably should look at some big honken $500 set of tooling, but for the few period pieces I do, I just cant justify the cost. What type of work are you doing ?

[Charlie Plesums]

...,,I'd also be looking to add a medium-sized power-feeder, probably in the 1/4 HP to 1/2 HP range. I'd be looking for "reverse", as well as 'suitable feed-rates. ...
I have a 1/2 hp power feeder, and couldn't believe I would need one that large. It works pretty good if I help push the boards through. And I haven't yet dared use it for climb cuts. Bottom line, I now see why people buy 1 hp and larger power feeders.

[Phil Pritchard]

Bob

In terms of spindle moulders (shapers), bigger really is better. You don't need 5HP to run a 1-1/4in spindle, although it does mean that you can run bigger tooling. With smaller motors you need to consider using aluminium heads rather than steel ones and you'll find the depth of cut you can do is smaller, that's all.

Insert tooling has a number of major advantages over brazed tips. Firstly your tool doesn't need to leave the shop for a week to get it reground. Only the inserts go. There are now a good range of what we call Euro blocks over here which come with up to 130 different cutter set designs, mainly furniture mouldings. You buy the block then add the cutters (HSS from about $25.00/set here) as required. I can typically get a custom set of cutters ground for around $85.00.

I'd say he main thing to look for in a spindle moulder is the quality of the fence. The plates need to be solid and co-planar (i.e. line up) and they need to have independent micro adjustment. Spindle moulders (shapers) are also machines which require lots of dust extraction, so a machine with a dust take-off below the table as well as at the back of the fence is a boon. If you are going to do raised panel work make sure that your machine can accommodate at least a 150mm (6in) diameter cutter block.

Spindles are also very useful for doing tenoning. For this a tool called a tenoning disc is generally required. You won't get one of those on a 3/4in spindle as tenoning discs are generally in the 125 to 300mm diameter range (5 to 12in) and they do require a special hood (which can be home made). They also require a sliding carraige, either built-in or add on. For tenoning more power is better. An alternative approach is to use a rebating cutterblock with spurs mounted onto a stub spindle (i.e. a spindle which does not project above the top of the cutter). This requires a machine with an exchangeable spindle top piece and is an economic way to machine tenons

As to speeds and reversing, on a 1-1/4in machine you could get by happily with 2 speeds, say 4500 rpm and 7000rpm or thereabouts. 4- or 5-speds are nice but not essential. reversing can be added to a machine by sinmply reversing the polarity to the motor (as the motors are induction motors). I have a reversing feature on my heaviest spindle moulder, an SCM T130, but it's rarely used (once or twice a year, if that). My other spindle moulder doesn't have the feature and it isn't missed at all.

I'd agree that to be effective a power feed needs to be 1HP or greater. 20fpm (6m/min) is a reasonable starting point in terms of speed, but feeders like the Steff 2034 offer 4- or 8- speeds between 4 and 22 metres/min (14 to 70 fpm) - the fastesty speed you'd only really use for matching t&g, however.

Phil

[Bob Dodge]

Thank you all for your responses gentlemen.

Phil, your reference to the "tenoner" has really gotten me thinking now. I hadn't even considered that possibility. Basically, I had been approaching a shaper purchase through the eyes of router-table operator. It sure would be nice to take fuller advantage of the shaper's added capabilities, other than doing only raised-panels, or rail & stile work.

It's obvious to me that a shaper is the "heart of a system". Tooling will no doubt add to the initial cost, however, it will also add to the versatility of the system. Being new to the world of shapers, I'm still woefully uninformed regarding tooling. I've briefly looked at cutter-heads from FS Tool, Dimar, Freud, and Freeborn. The insert tooling is something I find particularly interesting, mostly because of the low cost of the replacement inserts. Sharpening wouldn't even be a concern. I'd simply replace with new inserts as required. One of the raised-panel heads I looked at, offered replacement HSS inserts for $20. Canadian, and $28. for carbide. Freeborn also offers T-alloy cutters, which apparently offers the best of both choices; sharper edges, and extended durability.

Freud offers a light-weight aluminum head with raised-panel inserts which I could apparently mount to a 3/4" spindle, however, I'm a little concerned about the fragility of an aluminum head. (stripping threads) That concern may be totally unfounded; I just don't know at this stage. Most of the steel heads I looked at had a 1 1/4" bore. I've been told that these particular heads, would probably be beyond the working capacity of the 3 HP Asian machines which are currently available. This brings me back full-circle to my initial shaper selection. With current Canadian pricing, I can buy a 5 hp, 4-speed reversible, ! 1/4" spindle Asian shaper, for hundreds less than it would cost me to buy a 3 HP, 2-speed, 3/4" spindle Delta. With that 650 lb. Asian shaper, I'd also have no concerns with mounting a 150 lb/ 1 HP power-feeder.

My shop is simply too over-crowded to accomodate both a shaper and a router-table, so the shaper may occasionally have to do double-duty. Mind you, I could always add a simple router-plate to my table-saw's extension-table.

My concern with the heavy power-feeders, is when I have to swing the PF out of the way to use router-bits on the shaper. The new crop of 3 HP Asian shapers weigh-in at roughly 350 lbs, but I find the bases are quite small; especially in front-to-back depth. They don't appear to have the larger base-cabinets that the 3 HP Delta or PowerMatics have. If I swing the PF off to the side, I'm thinking the smaller-base shaper just won't have the stability to cope with that 150 lb weight hanging off to the side.

As you can see, I'm vascilating at this point. I'm trying to balance several issues to determine "what's best" for me. From a practical stand-point, the 5 HP Asian shaper ($2,750. tax incl) would probably be overkill in my shop, however, the 3 HP Delta would cost me hundreds more anyway, given current Canadian pricing.($3,000, tax incl)

In the current Canadian marketplace, the massive price difference between the 3 HP Asian shapers, and the 3 HP American or Canadian models, ($1600.+ difference) is basically forcing me to choose between the 3 or 5 HP Asian shapers. Having looked at a few recently, I'm VERY impressed with the current generation of Asian machines. There appears to be a significant improvement in "machining" and overall external fit and finish. It's the "innards" that leave me a little suspicious, perhaps unneccessarily so.

I find all of your comments on the manner in which you use your shapers, particularly helpful. Tenoning on the shaper for example, would be a wonderful time-saver, but force me to look at a heavier class of machine. So would molding heads. Details like the speed-range of the power-feeders, weight, climb-cutting, tooling, fences, etc; it all helps. Any info I can get on the recent 3 HP Asian shapers, will help identify the strong-points and short-comings.

If I thought I could find good-quality insert-tooling for this class of machine (light-duty 3/4" spindle machine), I'd probably be happy with it, and forget about tenoning and molding on the shaper. The machine would only see occasional heavy use. Perhaps a small run of kitchen cabinet doors for example. In my shop, those "runs", would often be many months apart. I'm basically a well-equipped hobbyist, who occasionally takes on outside work. I'm a bit picky when it comes to machinery however. As I said earlier in the thread, this would be my first Asian machine. Maybe a few well-placed comments regarding your own experiences will eliminate my hesitation.

[Phil Pritchard]

Hi Bob

I'll try to answer a few of your points


Freud offers a light-weight aluminum head with raised-panel inserts which I could apparently mount to a 3/4" spindle, however, I'm a little concerned about the fragility of an aluminum head. (stripping threads) That concern may be totally unfounded; I just don't know at this stage.
The joinery trade in the UK don't like ally heads simply because they employ apes who hammer the h*ll out of the equipment, and in any case the bigger machines have bigger brakes man enough to stop steel blocks (all trade-used and all new spindle moulders (shapers) have to be fitted with a brake by law). If you are a small shop with lighter gear ally heads make a lot of sense as a 3HP motor will spin one up and brake it much more easily than an equivalent steel block. Whilst mopst of my heads are steel, I have some Leuco and Freud ally blocks and they work just as well as the steel ones - the aluminium alloy used is aircraft quality and much harder than the stuff you get in extruded greenhouse sections


My shop is simply too over-crowded to accomodate both a shaper and a router-table, so the shaper may occasionally have to do double-duty. Mind you, I could always add a simple router-plate to my table-saw's extension-table.
Good idea. The fastest production spindle (shaper) I know of is the Felder which can run at 15,000 rpm (here in the EU). Below that speed you'll start to struggle to get the peripheral speed you need to cut effectively. If you can't reach circa 3,000 fpm peripheral speed on your cutters then you'll not be running fast enough to cut cleanly. It might be worth doing the calcs on this to see what I mean


My concern with the heavy power-feeders, is when I have to swing the PF out of the way to use router-bits on the shaper. The new crop of 3 HP Asian shapers weigh-in at roughly 350 lbs, but I find the bases are quite small; especially in front-to-back depth. They don't appear to have the larger base-cabinets that the 3 HP Delta or PowerMatics have. If I swing the PF off to the side, I'm thinking the smaller-base shaper just won't have the stability to cope with that 150 lb weight hanging off to the side..
You could always rag bolt the machine to the floor, you know...... Also take a look at the fold-away arm that Felder/Hammer do for their machines - either one of those could be adapted or you could get a local fabricator to weld you one up. Plain fact is that once you get a feeder on you tend to use it a LOT. But here's the question: why do you need a power feeder? You can only use them for straight fence work and a Shaw/SUVA guard set-up use with long push stick will give you that should really come with the machine as standard)


If I thought I could find good-quality insert-tooling for this class of machine (light-duty 3/4" spindle machine), I'd probably be happy with it, and forget about tenoning and molding on the shaper. The machine would only see occasional heavy use. Perhaps a small run of kitchen cabinet doors for example. In my shop, those "runs", would often be many months apart. I'm basically a well-equipped hobbyist, who occasionally takes on outside work. I'm a bit picky when it comes to machinery however. As I said earlier in the thread, this would be my first Asian machine. Maybe a few well-placed comments regarding your own experiences will eliminate my hesitation.
Unfortunately I have little experience of the asian machines - we simply don't have enough available over here that they are worth looking at - yet.

But here's another thing I will throw into the fray: do you use a dado head on a table saw to cut rebates? If so the first time you run the job on a spindle moulder (shaper) with a purpose-made skew rebate block (the type with thin disposable carbide inserts) even with only Shaw/SUVA guards the quality and ease of cut will blow you away and you'll never go back to using the table saw/dado head for that cut again, I promise.

And the final kicker: did you know that with a ring fence and guides a spindle moulder (shaper) can do the same copy template work that you can do on a router table - but it will take much bigger "bites", for example bullnose a 22mm thick oak lleg ib a single pass? That takes a bit of training and experience to accomplish, but that's another of the big plusses of the spindle moulder (shaper)

Phil

[Bob Dodge]

Phil,

You have no idea just how much I appreciate your guidance. Thank you so very much.

Re aluminum heads w/inserts;

The Freud aluminum raised-panel head I looked at was roughly 5 1/2" in diameter as I recall; don't quote me on that though. It had a 3/4" bore. I think the 3 HP Asian shaper could spin it easily enough. but I'm also uncertain that the machine's motor could deal with the load of a single-pass cut, for 3-4 hours straight. Most of those machines provide little or no motor name-plate info. General International's version is a little more forthcoming than most, and does stipulate Class E insulation, and 60 degree Celsius. Nowhere on the name-plate do you see a duty-cycle rating, nor a service-factor rating. In such a circumstance, I'd assume that manual thermal overload protection would be a welcome feature. Most others brands show only HP, amperage, and phase. Regardless of the brands that I've looked at, all had twin-capacitor motors, which from the outside appeared identical. Pulleys appeared to be cast-iron, but probably not dynamically balanced. This is purely an assumption on my part. None of those machines had brakes.

re periphery speed of router-bits on a shaper;

Phil, I think I had calulated that a 1" diameter router-bit, turning at 23,000 rpm, had a tip-speed of roughly 67 MPH.(miles per hour). A 3" shaper-cutter at 8000 rpm, has a tip-speed of 71 MPH, and a 6" cutter at 5600 rpm was 100 MPH. What impressed me is the number of cuts per inch given a specific feed-rate for a multi-wing large-diameter cutter. From what I gather, a 6-wing 6" diameter cutter turning at 5600 rpm, at a 40 FPM feed-rate, would yield 71 CPI (cuts per inch). A 3" 2-wing cutter, feeding at 1/2 that speed (20 FPM), would yield 67 CPI. I can certainly understand why a pro would spend the extra money for the multi-wing large-diameter cutter and heavier machine. He'd get the job done in 1/2 the time if my math is correct.

In the past, I've used vertical panel-raising bits with my router, and a tall fence. At it's narrowest point across the tip, I don't think the diameter of that bit exceeds 3/8". At 23,000 rpm, that would approach roughly 25 MPH I'd think. I wouldn't think for a moment, of using one of those bits in a shaper, even at max speed. (10,000 rpm)

re rag-bolting the shaper to the floor;

Duh!!! I hadn't even thought of that. Good point. Most of my machines are mounted on mobile bases to deal with cramped shop-space. I think I can dedicate a suitable permanent location for the shaper. This will allow more flexibility of choice when looking at power-feeders. (weight)

re "dadoes" on the shaper;

Very interesting point Phil. That hadn't even occured to me. What cutter would you use? Something like a down-cut Onsrud spiral cutter with chip-breaker blades? It certainly sounds a heckuva lot quicker than shimming my stacked-dado. More accurate (or quicker) cutter-height adjustment too. I have to hunt around for top-dead-centre on the stack-dado. Hmmm!

re template shaping;

Yes, I had seen several examples of that in the past, but I'm totally unfamiliar with the process. This is a large void in my understanding of the possibilities with a shaper. I'd definitely read a few good books on the subject before proceeding. I know next to nothing about rub-collars for example. I'd imagine they serve the same purpose as a bearing-tip on a router-bit. I'd also presume that a very robust jig would be in order, with stout handles for safety and control. I'm not clear on what a ring-fence is. Is this a thick plastic ring that mounts directly on the top of the spindle?

Once again, thank you for taking so much time and effort to help me. It's very much appreciated.

Bob

[Phil Pritchard]

Hi Bob


None of those machines had brakes.
They're law here in the EU (maybe why we don't see many Chaiwanese machines here - they can't meet the safety regs), although trade stuff has had manual braking since the mid-1970s in the UK, it became mandatory for all new machines in 2001, I believe, (although most manufacturers had been compliant since the mid-1990s and trade shops have been required to retrofit braking onto almost all woodworking nachines since then in a rolling programme). A braked machine won't continue spinning after it's been powered off, ergo it is safer as you can't accidentally push timber offcuts, fingers, etc into a still spinning, but silent cutterblock (the block can spin for up to 10 minutes after powering down) - timber can be ejected at a high rate of knots, fingers can be devoured at a similar rate......


What impressed me is the number of cuts per inch given a specific feed-rate for a multi-wing large-diameter cutter. From what I gather, a 6-wing 6" diameter cutter turning at 5600 rpm, at a 40 FPM feed-rate, would yield 71 CPI (cuts per inch). A 3" 2-wing cutter, feeding at 1/2 that speed (20 FPM), would yield 67 CPI.
A 6-wing 150mm (6in) blocks would only be useable on a through feed moulder with at least 10HP on each spindle - it takes a lot of power to drive such blocks. But there is another part to this calculation which is often overlooked - the diameter of the block. The larger the cutterblock diameter, the shallower (and therefore less noticeable) the scallop effect of the cutter


re "dadoes" on the shaper;

Very interesting point Phil. That hadn't even occured to me. What cutter would you use? Something like a down-cut Onsrud spiral cutter with chip-breaker blades? It certainly sounds a heckuva lot quicker than shimming my stacked-dado. More accurate (or quicker) cutter-height adjustment too. I have to hunt around for top-dead-centre on the stack-dado. Hmmm!
For edge rebates I use a block like this one (http://www.axminster.co.uk/product-Axminster-Rebate-Block-23097.htm) although mine is a skew cutter, not a straight cutter (better cut quality). Personally I wouldn't even attempt to use a spindle (shaper) for a through housing (what we call a dado over here) on the grounds that you are using an exposed and unguardable cutter which is not safe (in fact as a trade woodworker, it is illegal for me to do so for that reason). In any case I can't really see any way to guide the cut, and the cutter speed would possibly be a bit on the low side to guarantee a clean cut. My ways of cutting a housing is either to use a hand router or a radial arm saw with a 2-part safety trenching head (not the stacked saw arrangement you use in the USA). Having used shimmed trenching heads in the past the router is a lot faster if only doing 2 or 3 cuts, whilst the RAS is faster, easier and safer to use than a saw, in my professional opinion


re template shaping;

Yes, I had seen several examples of that in the past, but I'm totally unfamiliar with the process. This is a large void in my understanding of the possibilities with a shaper. I'd definitely read a few good books on the subject before proceeding. I know next to nothing about rub-collars for example. I'd imagine they serve the same purpose as a bearing-tip on a router-bit. I'd also presume that a very robust jig would be in order, with stout handles for safety and control.
May I recommend a book by the English author Eric Stephenson called "Spindle Moulder Handbook" (http://www.stobartdavies.com/pages/Nav_elements/TradeList4.htm) [publ. Stobart-Davis, ISBN 0-85442-031-2 reprinted 1999] as one of the best practical treatises on the subject? Eric is a very elderly gentleman these days, but in the 1970s he was the machinery designer for the firm of Thomas Robinson of Rochdale, manufacturers of heavy industrial woodworking equipment as well as being a technical lecturer on the subject of wood machining and he has a good understanding of his subject. Ring fences and shaping are well described in that book, although the British HSE site also has a free download on the subject here (http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/wis18.pdf) which is good general primer on the subject of spindle moulding guarding and safety, very important aspects of using these machines.


I'm not clear on what a ring-fence is. Is this a thick plastic ring that mounts directly on the top of the spindle?
It's actually a substantial steel fence in the shape of a ring which bolts onto the bed of the machine and surounds the base of the cutter. The top of the cutter is then protected using what we call a bonnet guard.

Phil

[Jamie Buxton]

Bob, Delta has been making that 3 hp shaper for decades. It has been pretty much the same design for most of that time. You could buy a used machine and get exactly the same functionality as a new one. In my neck of the woods, a used one in good shape costs $750-$1000.

About 15 years ago, they did start putting an improved fence on the machine, and it is quite an improvement.

If you get lucky, you might find one which already has a power feeder mounted. Around here, that doesn't seem to add much to the price of the machine, but if you buy a new 1 hp unit you're looking at a thousand dollars or so.

[J.R. Rutter]

I've really enjoyed reading this exchange. Lots of good info coming out.

Bob, since you are in Canada, you have access to a used market with many high quality used European shapers. SCMI has produced a solid shaper for many years with few design changes. Parts are available, many unchanged in 20-30 years. Interchangeable spindles and router collets are available, but are not cheap. There are some Asian copies (dual exhaust ports, massive quill, lever speed changes), but I don't have experience with them.

Do you have a phase converter?

One of the best things about insert tooling is the sharpness of the carbide. It performs noticible better than brazed heads, being a different grade that takes a keener edge. I have some Freeborn raised panel and cope/stick heads that are performing very nicely.

For a feeder, I would buy a used Italian or German feeder over a new Asian for the same money. The suspension is smoother. But if you do go Asian, I don't see ANY difference between my 4-wheel Delta and Grizzly feeders. So don't pay extra for the name.

[Bob Dodge]

Hey J.R.,

Good to see you again. I hope your new dc is working out well for you.

The power-feeder I'll buy will probably be a Steff. They seem competitively priced, and they have a wider speed-range at low feed-rates. I've heard pretty good things about those. They're manufactured in Italy by Maggi Engineering, and have hardened gears, and apparently, good suspensions.

http://www.maggi-engineering.com/jsp/livesite/changeLanguage.jsp?Language=Eng

http://www.factorynew.com/BrandFeatures.aspx?Brand=STEFF

The Freeborns you mentioned, apparently use T-alloy insert cutters. From what I understand, it takes a better edge than a carbide cutter, and last quite long as well. Replacement inserts are very inexpensive, I thought they were a heckuva deal when I looked at them.

As far as shapers go, I have to stick to a single-phase unit. I'm always on the lookout for a deal on a used Delta, or General/Poitras. I'd kill to find a good used General SS032. When I called my dealer looking into "foot-brakes", he mentioned that General, but, they start at $9.000. Can. Yikes.

I'm not really looking for huge capacity, but, I want accuracy, durability, and reliability, and no vibration. I'm also not particularly fussy about fences, since I can probably easily make one if I have to, or buy one as a replacement part. I can get the Delta aluminum fence for roughly $380. Can. up here. If I only end-up doing raised-panels and rail & stile work, I don't see why I'd need to worry about "micro-adjustability". Straight, square, and solid should do I'd think. If I were doing moldings, then maybe,,,,,

I saw a beautiful little Mini-Max T-50 at an industrial show last weekend. What a heckuva nice shaper that was.

http://www.cooperhorton.com/minimax/shapers.html

The pricing on the 3 HP Asians like the General International sure is attractive too, especially the latest generation. Frankly, they're much nicer than I expected. If only I could shake my bias and give one a whirl. I'm just not getting any feedback from those owners yet. Only 1 owner so far, and he had just purchased it, and had only tried router-bits at this point. Steel-City's version is identical, but with a more sophisticated fence, for a bit more money.

http://www.general.ca/pagemach/machines/40250a.html

http://www.steelcitytoolworks.com/products_tools.cfm?section=2&category=11&tool=48105

Here's a heavier version of the 3 HP Gen Int, with variable-speed electronic drive w/ brake.

http://www.general.ca/pagemach/machines/40300a.html

Decisions, decisions.

[Phil Pritchard]

Bob, since you are in Canada, you have access to a used market with many high quality used European shapers. SCMI has produced a solid shaper for many years with few design changes.
From owning an SCM T130 (my present big spindle - rewired) and having in the past owned an earlier SCM T120 and a brand new Cassadei F115 all I can say about Italian stuff is this - the older it is the cr*ppier the electrical switch gear is, although since the new CE regs in 2000 their wiring has improved markedly in quality (a lot of Italian firms now seem to fit French or German switch gear). If you buy a 10 year plus age Italian machine you must be prepared to spend $100 to $150 on rewiring it at some point (I do own some other Italian machinery at present and the same applies to that). But as regards the Canadian market there's also a reasonable amount of old British equipment around, such as Wadkins and the like. That stuff lasts - I know of one joinery shop where the newest of their spindles is a comparitive youngster of 45 years age, whilst the oldest pre-dates WWII - although their stuff is 3-phase so a phase converter would be necessary to run it.


I'm not really looking for huge capacity, but, I want accuracy, durability, and reliability, and no vibration. I'm also not particularly fussy about fences, since I can probably easily make one if I have to, or buy one as a replacement part. I can get the Delta aluminum fence for roughly $380. Can. up here. If I only end-up doing raised-panels and rail & stile work, I don't see why I'd need to worry about "micro-adjustability". Straight, square, and solid should do I'd think. If I were doing moldings, then maybe.....
Well, I'd say that the fences on a spindle moulder (shaper) need to be robust, especially if you are running a power feeder, so I'd still recommend going for a cast-iron fence if you can get one. I'd be concerned about flexing an ally fence - call that "fuddy-duddyism" if you like, or maybe it's just may age! Micro-adjustability I could just about do without, but as that's been the norm on European industrial machines since the 1930s why would I? You say you don't want huge capacity then talk about doing raised panels, hmmm...... I'd agree that you probably don't need more than 75mm spindle height or rise and fall to do most jobs, but the bigger raised panel cutters like the Freud blocks require a machine with a big fence opening to accommodate them. I'd advise checking that your fence arrangement can accommodate the diameter tooling you intend to use as a purpose-made panel raiser block would have a diameter of 150 to 200mm or so, depending on configuration


I saw a beautiful little Mini-Max T-50 at an industrial show last weekend. What a heckuva nice shaper that was.
SCM also do a slightly smaller machine, the T40 as well. With a sliding table fitted (which allows you to do tenoning) the T40 with table runs out here at about Stg £ 2300 + tax, and about Stg £1900 without the table (which can be retro fitted). If they are available in Canada I'd also suggest taking a look at the (British) Sedgwick SM3 spindle moulder (shaper) - not many bells and whistles, but simple, robust and accurate engineering and will last for decades. I've not long sold one (to buy a bigger machine as it happens) and I'd recommend the SM3 to anyone, especially as there is a single-phase model available and a retro-fittable tenoning carraige/table as well.

I'd like to add a final comment or two about tooling. I use a mixture of brazed solid carbide tipped (mainly older stuff), disposable carbide tipped and resharpenable HSS and TCT tipped (on 4mm or 6mm inserts). The brazed carbide I won't be replacing like-for-like once it's been used up - I hate losing a tool for a week having it reground and the cost of retipping if you ever chip a tip means that the extra cost of buying a disposable tip is clawed back in 1 to 2 such incidents. And things like that do happen. For lower volume stuff I use replaceable cutter Euro blocks in HSS or TCT. These are generally for special designs (such as my own door profiles) or for designs where the profile is unavailable in a standard design TC-RT block. I don't throw them when they become blunt, I simply face off the cutters on my wetstone grinder, which makes them incredibly cheap to use. A 4mm cutter can typically be faced off 8 or more times before it needs to be replaced, and HSS is better than TCT on softwoods in particular (quality of cut, surface smoothness), so this stuff has it's advantages.

Phil

[J.R. Rutter]

Hi Bob,

Re the Freeborn inserts: You can specify either Tantung or carbide. I use carbide so that I can run abrasive hardwoods. The insert carbide really is better than brazed - mirror finish on the faces, nice sharp edge, plus no sharpening.

Re DC: We poured concrete last week for an outdoor foundation for the Torit #30 with 103 ft3 hopper up on 9 ft legs. It will be taller than the building and had to have engineered footings. I got a used Aget FT64 for a filter, which I am using with my old indoor cyclone for now.

Re shapers: I've got the MM T40, Powermatic #26 and #27, SCMI T110A, and T120K (agree with Phil on electrics here, but otherwise a sweet machine). The T40 fence leaves a lot to be desired, but is otherwise a very nice small shop machine. Spendy though. I've seen a few Wadkin BER4 shapers listed for sale in CA. Owners I've spoken with have liked them. There is also Bauerle, which seems to be popular up north. If you can, get a fence that can be fixed to the table and adjusted independently from that.

[Bob Dodge]

Hi Phil,

Excellent points once again. Your reference to insert-tooling is precisely why I included a 5 HP , 1 1/4" spindle shaper in my choice of machines. That is VERY attractive to me at this point. Mind you, I'm not certain if you can buy smaller-diameter insert-tooling heads for the 3/4" spindle machines. I just haven't come across them yet. There just seems to be so much more selection in the 1 1/4" format.

That 5 HP Asian shaper I was considering, is a few hundred bucks cheaper than the 3 HP Delta (in Canada). At roughly $2500, it's a 650+ lb machine, with 1 1/4" spindle, more "under-the-nut" capacity, 4 speeds reversible(3,600, 5,100, 8,000,and 10,000 rpm), and single-phase. I would think a machine like that should easily handle a 150 mm(6") raised-panel head.

http://www.kingcanada.com/Products.htm?CD=118&ID=106

Don't forget, I'm a rank novice when it comes to these machines. I'm only scratching the surface at this point, and may be using incorrect conclusions. If the spindle on that shaper is "true", I think I'd probably be happy with it. The table-top is not that much larger than a 3 HP Delta, so space-wise, I'd be ok.

Many of the fine old cast-iron machines I see are in triple-phase. Swapping out the electricals is not a big deal for me, except for the cost involved.

Here for example, is a used Poitras (General) shaper with power-feed, but 575 v/ 3-phase. Conversion to single-phase with a Baldor or Leeson motor, would probably run me close to $900.-$1,000. in my area. The guy wants $3200, but that includes the power-feeder. He'll sell separately. I'm not really interested in this particular machine, I'm only showing it to you to illustrate what folks are asking for used machines here. The market can be quite erratic.

http://www.lespac.com/search/detail.php?infst=&cp=23&region=&gr=10&majalerte=&a=4816557&o=%2Fsearch%2Findex.php&r=1220&liste_ville=&listcmp=&parindex=0&page=2&total=18&nbrpages=3&visite_recherche=&categorie_titre=%5BOutils-mat%E9riaux+-+Outils%5D&fes=&tpay=0&zc=23&zg=10&orderby=distance&mots=shaper&tr=4&distancemax=0&agemax=0&liste_region=&catgr=c23-10&yf=0&yt=0&prixfrom=De...&prixto=%C0...&offre=t&etatb=t

Here's a used Delta with a 1 1/4" spindle, but no mention of the HP or phase. At $1600., and if it's single-phase, this may be a good deal.

http://www.lespac.com/search/detail.php?infst=&cp=23&region=&gr=10&majalerte=&a=4864044&o=%2Fsearch%2Findex.php&r=1220&liste_ville=&listcmp=&parindex=0&page=2&total=18&nbrpages=3&visite_recherche=&categorie_titre=%5BOutils-mat%E9riaux+-+Outils%5D&fes=&tpay=0&zc=23&zg=10&orderby=distance&mots=shaper&tr=4&distancemax=0&agemax=0&liste_region=&catgr=c23-10&yf=0&yt=0&prixfrom=De...&prixto=%C0...&offre=t&etatb=t

[J.R. Rutter]

Well, that Holzher feeder would be a nice addition on the General shaper. So much depends on condition though. If you are starting to move to this grade of machine, then a phase converter might be the thing for you. So much easier than swapping motors if you get another machine on down the road. I even ran a cheap static converter on a 5 HP shaper. It will slow down on big cuts, but allowed the machine to function without much added expense.

[Bob Dodge]

J.R., I may just look into a static converter for the heck of it. It sure would open the door to a lot of possibilities. There are used triple-phase shapers galore up here. I used to have easy access to inexpensive re-built motors, but the guy has moved away. From what I understand, I'd lose about 1/3 of the torque if I remember correctly.

I've looked into buying, and even building my own rotary phase-converter, but my overall cost was just to high to make it worthwhile.

I'm going to scour the "used" market for the next little while. There was a huge industrial show near here just last week, and there should be a few used shapers appearing shortly. In the meantime, I'm trying to get more informed on cutter options. Once I sort out which cutters I'll be using, I think I'll have a clearer idea of what machine I'll need. I found a nice old cast-iron single-phase Bauerle that may be just the ticket. At this point, I'm in no hurry. I want to make a choice I can live with for a long time.

I'm also searching for an appropriate single-phase motor and switch. If I can find a good deal on a motor, I won't hesitate to swap-out the electricals on a used 3-phase machine. Had I known 4 months ago that I'd be in the market for a shaper, I'd have probably bought the Delta. $2,199. back then. $2,700 now.