Combo Jointer/Planer

[John Kain]

My question is: Would you rather have separate machines or a combo machine?

Space is somewhat of an issue for me but not a deal breaker. I'm just wondering what your thoughts are. I've read a couple past threads about guys who got the MM Smart 35 and 30 as well as a couple with the Robland and Hammer units. In fact, these units, as well as Rojek and Felder are the ones I'm considering.

My thinking is two-fold. First, alot of reviews have indicated that these machines seems to work a bit better than stand-alones due to their weight. Second, it seems cost efficient. Very cost efficient.

What are your thoughts?

[Mark Singer]

John,
I have no remorse about my seperate jointer and planer...my MM Elite "S" has replaced them in a smaller footprint and with more efficiency....added a great deal more capacity...16" jointer and a great slot mortiser. having said that.. I am not ready to give up a cabinet saw for a slider....i need to be part of the action!

[Matthew Batarseh]

I own a MiniMax FS35 and considered the Hammer and Felder when I was purchasing.

If I had the space and was doing this over I would choose separates. While the changover doesn't take THAT long, it is still slightly annoying and anything that moves that much will require readjustment more often than a fixed machine. This is probably more true on the combos where the tables lift independantly (like mine) than on the higher end MM and Felders where they lift as a single unit (MM FS41 and Felder 500 series and above).

I think there is some mystique going on about the combos right now. What you get over seperates is less space and maybe less cost (only paying for one chassis and one motor). If you are going to buy Euro seperates then you will save money, if you buy Asian seperates you likely won't.

On the weight thing you mention I think that is not true. A decent standalone 12" jointer will weigh just as much as a 12" J/P. The tables will also be much longer. For the planer you will also be limiting yourself to the width of your jointer, where if you go with seperates you can get a 12" jointer and a 20" planer or whatever your budget allows.

Just my $.02

[martyphee]

I started a discussion about this a few weeks ago. I sold my Porter 16" jointer last weekend and I'm in the process of selling my Delta 18" w/b. I will miss them both, but my Hammer 12" combo should arrive tomorrow.

It really comes down to space. If I had a larger shop I would have kept them. You just can't find replacements for under $10k for them.

[Jim Becker]

No regrets here...I love my MM J/P combo (FS 350, predicessor to the FS 35 Smart) Space was also a consideration for me and separates would have really been an issue in my shop when going "large" like I wanted to do. I'm one of those people who really believe in wide jointers for a variety of reasons. I have that as well as a planer with the same width. (3.79" in my case...350mm) Changeovers take about...a minute. And the Tersa knives are wonderful.

[lou sansone]

I happen to like separates, but I have seen combos in action and they work pretty slick. if space is not an issue, and you are willing to buy vintage machines, then you can save a bundle. Although combo machines have been around for almost 100 years or more ( my first band saw was a 24" section of a combo made in the late 1800's ), there are many more good vintage separates out there. Most will be 3 phase ( sorry I like my machines to weigh between 2000 and 3500 lbs if possible and that means industrial 3 phase ), but there are some single phase units around below 5 hp. The new tersa heads are the cat's meow, but I have little difficulty changing my "old Iron-a-saurs " blades myself. If I was starting out in business and had a bunch of guys who might have to do their own knife changes, then I would really look at the new machines with tersa heads.

[John Kain]

Bump

I'm hoping some of the Creekers with the big combo machines can chime in here. You know who you are: X31-er's, Knapp-er's, etc etc.....

[Alan Trout]

This is my first post. I have been lurking around here for a while and am humbeled by quality of work and knowledge of the forum members. I learn a heck of a lot more by reading than posting.

While I am not a beginner, most of my fine wood working has gone into mill work in old houses. Stairs, handrails, balusters, casings, etc. My old man was a teacher that taught cabinet making for 15 years however I did not care about wood working untill he became blind and not able to show me many of his techniques. However he still has been a valuable resource for me. I am a trial and error kind of guy.

On to the Combo machines. I have owned an X31 since about 1994 that I bought new. For the money I think it is pretty hard to beat. The jointer while having a short bed is quite good you just have to be carful with joining long boards and a extra hand can help with those long boards as well. The planer is quite good and have never had any issues with it.

The saw is very powerful and will cut through about anything I have ever put through it. It has a riving knife and an ok guard that can be removed from the knife. I do use the knife most of the time but I typically leave the guard off when I use it. While I have seen some of the X31's that will accept a dado blade mine will not. The dust chute is to narrow. However I have often thought about pulling the top off and re-making the chute however that would be a PITA and have never done it. I have a large router table that I cut my dado's and rabbits on and it works very well for that.

The sliding table is very nice when properly set up. I don't think I could live without one now that I have used one all of these years.

I have never used the shaper. The cost of shaper heads has kept me from using it. However many say that it is one of the best features of the machine. One of these days I will get around to getting some shaper cutters.

The mortiser is very nice and have used mine quite a bit.

Mine is an older one and I upgraded the saw fence to the Knapp fence which comes standard on the newer ones. I like the Knapp fence. I still use the original jointer fence that came with the unit and it works fine for me.

I am restoring another old house right now that is on a pretty good size inner city lot. I am planning on building a shop, office, garage on the back of th lot however I think I will be limited to about a 20'x20' work space. With limited space combo's are a viable option. They do teach you to work more efficiently. and most of them have very good capacity. I think I am going to stick with this combo as the center piece for my new shop. I thought about separates but to have the same capacity I would not have any room left in a 20'x20' space and a much thinner wallet to boot.

Remember with the Robland they do not come very well setup. There is a lot of labor and special tools getting one tweaked where it is right. When you do they work very well and stay that way. There is a Yahoo group that is dedicated to the X31 and is a valuable source of information. One thing I do want to add is a Byrd shelix cutter head. They are kind of expensive and it is just a thought cause the coventional knives work just fine.

Thanks,


Alan

[Steve Wargo]

Welcome Alan.

[Brad Noble]

Welcome Alan. Sounds like you are pretty well set up. Please share some pictures of you new shop when you have it ready.

Brad

[Alan Trout]

Will do, it is about 6 months to a year down the road till I can start on it. I have to finish the main house first. I am working in a 2 car garage right now that is so stuffed with Cr*p that it is hard to do anything right now. If I can get it cleaned up I will take a few pictures.

Thanks for the kind welcome.


Alan

[Charlie Plesums]

I have the five function MiniMax combo with the 16 inch jointer planer. I love it, for the quality of the work, and for the space saving.

I found that my 6 inch jointer was nealy useless (too narrow for face jointing, and my saw was set up well enough to rarely need edge jointing). I was thinking of an 8 to 10 inch jointer, when I went for the 16 inch combo. I can argue that 10 (or even 12) inches is "necessary" but having a 16 inch jointer opens a whole range of opportunities. For example, I glue up my raised panels before jointing and planing.

[Joe Jensen]

I have the five function MiniMax combo with the 16 inch jointer planer. I love it, for the quality of the work, and for the space saving.

I found that my 6 inch jointer was nealy useless (too narrow for face jointing, and my saw was set up well enough to rarely need edge jointing). I was thinking of an 8 to 10 inch jointer, when I went for the 16 inch combo. I can argue that 10 (or even 12) inches is "necessary" but having a 16 inch jointer opens a whole range of opportunities. For example, I glue up my raised panels before jointing and planing.

I've often wondered what it is like to face joint something 16" wide, let alone 24" more on the old iron. Seems like it would be hard exert enough downward pressure without a feeder. Is this difficult? Also, are you face jointing glued up panels, or wide boards? I've always read that glue lines wreak havoc on jointer knives. (I've been using an 8" jointer for 20 years)...joe

[Charlie Plesums]

I've often wondered what it is like to face joint something 16" wide, let alone 24" more on the old iron. Seems like it would be hard exert enough downward pressure without a feeder. Is this difficult? Also, are you face jointing glued up panels, or wide boards? I've always read that glue lines wreak havoc on jointer knives. (I've been using an 8" jointer for 20 years)...joe
I avoid using my power feeder on the jointer because it provides too much downward pressure...you want to keep the board "relaxed" and flat on the outfeed table, so jointing may take multiple passes...no big deal. Still, if you are doing a lot of raised panels you will work up a sweat with those 16 inch knives pusing the other way.

I face joint and plane the glued up panels (using yellow carpenter's glue). I don't have any perceptible damage to the tersa knives. Don't try sanding the glued up panels in a drum sander before jointing/planing... the glue line will melt into the sandpaper and ruin it in no time.

[Jim Becker]

Joe, Charlie is correct...you don't want a lot of pressure as you want to shave off the high spots! That said, once the board starts to get flat, it tends to "stick" to the cast iron. Fortunately, with the MM machine, the grind of the tables is not "smooth" which presents some relieve to the "stickiness" that you get when two flat and smooth surfaces come together. How you grip the board to get it through each pass comes into consideration much more than with a narrow format jointer...even with the grind my machine has, I find I need to use a push block with a lip much more often than I did with a narrow jointer for face jointing.

One thing to consider...the wide jointer isn't just to accomodate "wide" stock. It's also convenient for edges of things that are not straight (such as bent laminations) and for running highly figured stock through at an angle to the cutters.

[Mike Wilkins]

Space, capacity and power is why I sold a Jet 6" jointer & Parks 12" planer in exchange for a 12" j/p combo. My shop is only 16 X 24 with an attached 16 by 16 shed/storage. I got the machine from Andreou Machinery in NJ, which is a clone of the Rojek machine, and a close clone of the Robland.
In addition to the above reasons, space saving is the primary benefit of a combo mahcine; smaller footprint to make room for more toys/tools. I think I would still have the same set-up even if I had twice the space. A combo makes you more organized in your milling operations, as switching back and forth invites mistakes, and dust collection is situated in one location, instead of additional hoses everywhere.
Folks who have them must love them; it is rare to find one listed for sale.
Good luck and watch those fingers.

[Michael Keating]

Hi John,

I personally have seperate jointer and planer. I am going to replace the 2 with one combo machine in the future, probably 2 years when we move and I get a dedicated shop and not a 2 car garage. The biggest selling point for me is the larger jointer (12-16 inches) and not having to move 2 machines around the shop to mill lumber.
The morticer may be a nice touch, but I am not going to base my decision on this feature.

Mike

[Aaron Beaver]

I got my combo because of space. I have a basement shop that also serves other purposes and I just couldn't take up the space of two machines. Having a combo took care of that for me.

[Jay Knepper]

I have a Hammer A3 31 (~12" jointer/thicknesser). It's tricked out with three bed extensions and a mortiser. I work mostly with rough, solid wood and spend more time running this machine than any other. Changeovers take a couple of minutes at most to complete, and it's surprising how much they can be minimized by thinking ahead.

For me the cost and space efficiency have been wonderful, and the quality of results has been excellent. If I made my living at woodworking I might have made another choice, but maybe not.

[John Renzetti]

hi, I have been using a jointer/planer in the shop since 1998. The present machine is a 20" Felder Format Dual 51.
As others have said the changeover on a j/p is not a big deal. About a minute or two. I find that the changeover time gives me time to think about what I am going to do next.
One nice thing about the j/p's is that they are compact and don't take up much room. I know on the Felder and Hammer machines you can add extension tables when needed, so that on a machine with an 80" table it can quickly become a 120" machine.
The best thing to do is to try one out. It doesn't matter what make, just see if you like and can adapt to the machine. I personally like the j/p combo. Others here have said the same thing. But you are not us, so your decision should be based on your preferences and work habits. This past Sunday I was up at my friend Tom Hummels house and shop to deliver my former IR compressor. Tom has a real nice MM FS35. Next to it was a Delta 6" jointer. I told Tom that he needed to get rid of that thing since it probably doesn't get used. He said he uses it still since it comes in handy when the j/p is set up for planing and he just needs to edge joint or face joint a small board. Now I wish I had the space that Tom has.
Anyway get some hands on experience and see how you like it.
As far as cutterheads go, the Tersa is the most well known. There's other insert heads that are used also. Felder has their system as well as the Tersa. Knapp uses the Leitz Wigo system. I like the Tersa on large 5-6" diameter cutterheads. Also like that you can install carbide$$ sections with HSS sections on the same cutterhead. They are all good for what they were designed to do. Northfield offers a choice of 6 different cutterheads on their machines. The problem is that a big Northfield planer or jointer is up in the Martin price range of over $20k.
take care,
John