What is the best top coat for hand rubbing

[Zahid Naqvi]

I have been doing some reading on hand rubbing. Seems like shellac is not hard enough while poly requires sanding between coats. Lacquer on the other hand has all the desirable features, but the toxic fumes are a concern. Putting that aside, what is the best top coating for hand rubbing a finish?

I made a small desk top pencil/pen box, top coated with three coats of lacquer (brushed). As I commenced rubbing with 0000 steel wool and soapy water, I was able to wear through the lacquer within seconds. The lacquer had cured for about two days. I remember poly being very durable, when subjected to steel wool.

[Steven Wilson]

Lacquer and shellac are hard enough but you need to let them cure before rubbing out. Try letting a piece sit for 3 weeks before rubbing out and start with something finer than 0000 steel wool (pumice and rotenstone).

[Jim Becker]

If you are not comfortable with shellac or lacquer for your top coat, consider an alkyd or phenolic based varnish...these have a lot of depth, nearly the same "protection" as poly (they are actually harder, but can scratch a little easier...) and don't have that annoying problem of not liking to stick to themselves like polyurethane varnish does...

[Howard Acheson]

Lacquer, and shellac, are both very thin film finishes. Oil based varnish or poly varnish is a much thicker film.

If you plan to "rub" a lacquer finish, you should apply at least 8-10 coats of finish (equal in film thickness to about three coats of an oil based finish). That way you will have a thick enough film to be able to rub it out.

Also, using steel wool is not the best for rubbing. It will go much better to start with 400 grit paper on a sanding block followed by 600 grit. If you want a satin finish, follow the 600 with gray scotchbrite pad. Do all your rubbing or sanding with the grain.

It is very easy to sand through lacquer so go slowly and check your progress frequently.

[Steve Schoene]

Shellac and lacquer are both considerably harder than varnish, especially polyurethane varnish. Consequently, both rub out very well--and much more easily than varnishes. Lacquer is generally conceded to be the best of all finishes for rubbing out, though shellac is not far behind.

While Howard is correct that you need to build enough finish to give you enough thickness to rub out, with both of those evaporative finishes all coats meld together seamlessly, so there is no problem in cutting through one coat and revealing the demarkation lines between coats.

Even though varnish coats are thicker, in general, all the rubbing out must be accomplished within the one final coat. If you cut into the next coat, you often reveal the "witness" lines between coats. Those lines often look like little lines on a topographic map, and the best cure is another coat of finish and starting over with the rub out process.

[Zahid Naqvi]

I think one of the mistakes I made was using only three coats of Lacquer, and I probably didn't let it cure long enough (around 36-40 hrs). I'm gonna try around six coats this time and let it cure for a week.

[Carl Eyman]

I've had good luck with Behlen's Rock Hard Varnish. I don't know generic name, but this may be one of the things Jim Becker recommended.

[Howard Acheson]

I've had good luck with Behlen's Rock Hard Varnish. I don't know generic name, but this may be one of the things Jim Becker recommended.

Rockhard is a excellent choice if you want to be sucessful rubbing out a varnish. It is a high solid, low oil product that dries very hard. As noted already, hardness is a requirement if you want to rub out to a high gloss.

[Homer Faucett]

Rockhard is a excellent choice if you want to be sucessful rubbing out a varnish. It is a high solid, low oil product that dries very hard. As noted already, hardness is a requirement if you want to rub out to a high gloss.

Howie, can you cut Rockhard with MS just like polyurethane to make a wipe-on finish?

Thanks!

[Howard Acheson]

Both shellac and lacquer contain very few solids. To build an film of sufficient thickness for sanding or "rubbing" at least 6-8 coats must be applied. Even then, you must be careful or you will get sand-thru.

The best finish for working to a high gloss is lacquer. An oil based non-poly varnish like McCloskey, or Waterlox Original Gloss or Behlen's Rockhard will work fine but they must be allowed to fully cure for 3-4 weeks. Poly varnish is difficult to rub out. It is fairly soft and the urethane is added to make the finish more scratch resistant. Sanding is scratching. Poly is never more glossy than it is right off the brush.

[Neil Lamens]

Zahid-

like others above......lacquer is your best top coat to cut.

In your reading did you come across a picture of a sanding machine with a rounded top and 2 rubber sanding pads beneath??. I know you mentioned a small box but if you plan on rubbing out/cutting nightstand size and above in the future, you might investigate. Mine is an old 8 to 10 pound Michigan-Detroit cutter. Hooks to my air compressor.

Bet Howard, Steve and the rest can add more. When polyester resin finishes over goat skin, snake skin, etc were hot (mid 80's), we would have a big 20/25 (possibly heavier) pounder to cut with.

[Frank Hagan]

Not to hijack the thread, but what experience does everyone have with rubbing out a waterbased lacquer like Target's Oxford Ultima Spray Lacquer? I sure like the way it sprays on, and I've done some fine sanding between the first spraying and subsequent coats. Is it hard enough to rub out?

[Matt P]

Howie, can you cut Rockhard with MS just like polyurethane to make a wipe-on finish?

Thanks!

Did you find the answer to this? I'd like to know too..
Matt

[Homer Faucett]

Did you find the answer to this? I'd like to know too..
Matt

I never received an answer to my question, but the can says that it can be thinned by adding as much as 25% thinner (they recommend their own reducer, but others have indicated that their expensive reducer is probably just mineral spirits relabeled). Here is a good post on applying Rockhard:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=22553&highlight=behlen%27s+rockhard

He recommends using the Behlen's reducer. I have no idea how I am going to finish my stuff in a dust free environment--it just isn't going to happen.

[Dennis Peacock]

I think one of the mistakes I made was using only three coats of Lacquer, and I probably didn't let it cure long enough (around 36-40 hrs). I'm gonna try around six coats this time and let it cure for a week.

Z.....you need at least 5 coats and cure time AFTER the last coat needs to be 2-3 weeks in a warm room. Then you are ready for a nice rubbing on the finish.

[Mack Cameron]

The recipe I have posted here is one I use with great success. It is from a gentleman by the name of Don Kondra. He calls himself a Designer/Maker, but I know him as the Canadian Home Workshop (a Canadian WW'ing publication) Pro. Don has won many awards for his furniture design.

The recipe is -
25% exterior VARNISH (spar)
25% PURE Tung Oil
50% paint thinner

1 capful of Japan Dryer per cup of mix...

Mix only as much as you expect to use in two to three days.

I take a 8" square of old T shirt and throw it right in the container of mix, then squeeze it just enough so it isn't dripping all over the floor and apply liberally to the piece.

Keep going over the piece until it doesn't absorb anymore, then squeeze out the rag firmly and give it one more wipe.. within 15 minutes or so dust will not stick to the finish.

Two coats a day, a total of four coats for non wear surfaces such as legs and six coats for tops, etc...

Before the final coat, sand with a foam sanding pad or scotchbrite pad.

The ONLY thing that will keep cherry from darkening is to store the wood in a dark closet

And please, DO NOT STAIN cherry, it's natural color is beautiful all on its own.....

And if you do, chances are the blotching is simply the curly nature of the wood.

TO MAKE 1 CUP OF FINISH = 250 ml. total


¼ cup Spar Varnish,
¼ cup pure Tung Oil
½ cup Solvent
2 tsps. Japan Drier
or an easier way is 1 part Spar Varnish, 1 part pure Tung Oil, 2 parts solvent, along with a little Japan drier.

[Dennis Peacock]

Hey Mac.....

Thanks for the recipe!!!!! I'll have to give that a try sometime. :)

[Jim Becker]

The one comment about Mac's formula is that you can effectively substitute other varnish products with good success. Spar varnish (if it's really "spar" varnish) is a long oil product that is designed to be really flexible...and is consequently pretty soft. That's likely ok for most situations and with the dilution by additional oil (the tung in the formula) this "danish oil" mixture isn't really intended to be a rock hard film finish. BTW, the Japan drier is to help the tung oil along...pure tung takes a long time to cure. You likely don't need it if you substitute BLO for the tung.

I've also seen the brew in more of a 33/33/33 mixture with similar ingredients (BLO works fine as a substitute for tung there, too). And for a wiping varnish, as opposed to a varnish/oil mixture, 50/50 varnish of your choice and mineral spirits (paint thinner) is far less expensive than buying "wiping varnish" at the store and is effectively the same thing.

Experimenting with these "brews" is not a horrible thing...you will likely find something you really like that works on the species you generally build with. They are also great for turnings including those that you "push" on the lathe with friction. (heats it up)

Do be careful to dispose of rags appropriately when you wipe any oil based finish.