Another tube bites the dust - not a rant

[Joe Pelonio]

Just sharing the news, that's all. Maybe looking for sympathy. :rolleyes: The first died after about a year, while on warranty, this one lasted 18 months and it'$ on me. After starting to have problems a little over a week ago I've gone from easily cutting 1/4" acrylic to needing 2 passes to cut 1/8". Finishing some badges and nameplates today with a lot of extra effort, then yanking it out in the morning.


Keywords: Laser Tube Failure

[Keith Outten]

Ouch!

Sorry about the tube Joe, you already know the drill and are famillier with the pain :(
I have just about accepted that I will need a rebuilt tube every 12 to 18 months and I charge enough overhead to each job to cover my tube replacement plus a bit more.
Tell us the make and model of your machine so we can keep some stats.

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All you new Engravers heed this advice and make sure you are charging every client a fair overhead % on each job. When your laser tube fails you will need to fork up the big bucks to replace it and they are rarely cheap. Low end laser work will often become very unprofitable when the final bills come in so plan ahead. It would be a good move to contact your laser manufacturer and ask about the replacement cost of your laser tube right now, you can reduce the sticker shock and save a few pennies from each job so you'll be ready.

[Joe Pelonio]

Keith gives good advice, since mine went out the first time and Keith mentioned it in another post I have been doing that. I debated whether to extend the warranty but then forgot when the date came and it was too late, but the difference between warranty extension cost and new tube is not that much.

Again I have to say that Epilog tech support has been very cooperative and helpful. It's a Legend 24tt 45 watt, 2-1/2 years old.

[Ed Maloney]

I thought I read somewhere that some of the lasers were rated at 30,000 hours which is anout 3 1/2 years. Is this a static (idle time) rating with no load on it?

[Joe Pelonio]

Rating is hard to define. I know there are representatives of most laser manufacturers on this forum all the time, maybe some will chime in. One of them once said in a post that they were finding most tubes to last 5 years, but that would include folks that use it as a hobby, maybe a few hours a week. So it may well be true but you can't go by it.

When I bought mine I was told that the tube was rated 11,000 hours, which is 3 years at 10 hours a day 365 days a year. There have to be some assumptions based on averages for that rating, for example 1/2 power rastoring is going to have much less affect on longevity as full power cutting. Someone doing 90% engravable plastic (rowmark, ipi) would get a lot more time out of it than someone like me where 80%
of my work is cutting 1/4" acrylic.

Comparing replacement costs as Keith suggested would be a better consideration in choosing a machine than the rated hours. Of course balancing that with other features, customer service and support etc.

[Mike Mackenzie]

I can help out the ULS customers with some numbers.

For replacement completely refurbished ULS tubes the pricing is listed below.

25-30 watt tubes $850.00
35-40 watt tubes $950.00
45-60 watt tubes $1,050.00

of course this does not include shipping, Hopefully this will give you folks some numbers to plan ahead with. From all of our statistics that we have gathered over the last 10 years or so the ULS tubes are lasting between 3 to 5 years.

Most laser tube mfg's rate the hours on a bench they turn the laser on and shoot it at a brick and wait for it to die they have test equipment to measure the time. But it does not make any difference whether you run your system at 100% power or 5% power whether you run the system 1 day a week or 7 days a week.

[Frank Corker]

jeez Joe, so sorry to hear that mate, it's so frustrating something like that happening, have they given you a price on a replacement?

[mike wallis]

Ouch!

Sorry about the tube Joe, you already know the drill and are famillier with the pain :(
I have just about accepted that I will need a rebuilt tube every 12 to 18 months and I charge enough overhead to each job to cover my tube replacement plus a bit more.
Tell us the make and model of your machine so we can keep some stats.

-------------------------------------------------------------
All you new Engravers heed this advice and make sure you are charging every client a fair overhead % on each job. When your laser tube fails you will need to fork up the big bucks to replace it and they are rarely cheap. Low end laser work will often become very unprofitable when the final bills come in so plan ahead. It would be a good move to contact your laser manufacturer and ask about the replacement cost of your laser tube right now, you can reduce the sticker shock and save a few pennies from each job so you'll be ready.

Keith I think you may be on to something here. Allot of places have customer ratings/reviews on products...Why not have a unbiased place that rates lasers? People can give a review and rating on there model. Man I wish something like that was around when I was shopping for a laser. Maybe a forum edition?

[Keith Outten]

Ed,

The 30,000 hour figure is based on the CO2 gas and does not include the electronics part of the tube. The figure looks great in print but seems to be extremely poor advertising practice to me. I have inquired about adding an hour meter to lasers, this would provide real world numbers on the lifespan of CO2 tubes but the idea isn't real big with the manufacturers.

I believe that we can put together some numbers based on our own experiences concerning tube replacements and other types of machine failures. This would be a huge benefit to those shopping for a new laser engraver both newbies and those who are considering switching manufacturers. The cost of tube replacement is a real number that everyone needs to be aware of and it affects your bottom line. So many of the new owners are unaware of the real cost of ownership and many will be heartbroken when they finally figure out that they weren't charging their customers enough to pay for maintenance and repair.

What we need is a three year 100,000 hour warranty on a machine that often costs more than the car or truck we drive.

You guys keep supplying the data and I will put some kind of database together to track the information.


.

[James Stokes]

I just had a 30 watt universal tube recharged. It lasted 6 years. No guess on how many hrs. I ran it a lot the first 5 years not much at all the last year. Most of what I did I ran at full power. I think what finally killed the tube was non use. Universal was suprised it lasted that long.

[Joe Pelonio]

jeez Joe, so sorry to hear that mate, it's so frustrating something like that happening, have they given you a price on a replacement?
The replacement is $2,300, but if you send it ahead of time, and they wait until they have the old one to ship the new, it's $2,100

Keith, perhaps you could include in your data the replacement cost too.

I'm estimating the hours on this tube at about 4,000. Would be nice to have the machine track that.

[Mike Shauer]

Sorry to hear that Joe but is good and right that you set aside the replacement money.
My Versa has a USB port on the back to run the air compressor and maybe a filter thing anyway it turns on when the tube starts to fire. My son is a robotic engineer and he thought he could make a circuit to drive a hour meter from this port. He lives in the city about 125 miles away and is extremely busy so I expect to have it about the time I need a new tube. Hopefully not till mid to end of next year. Cheers, Mike

[James Stokes]

Just for grins I just called epilog, To replace my 100 watt tube is $2900. I hope I do not need to replace it very soon:eek:

[Joe Pelonio]

Just got a call from Epilog, my tube was down to 13 watts (from 45).

[Frank Corker]

No wonder it wasn't working well Joe. I just wish there was some more ways of indicating what the condition of the laser actually is. Is there anyway of finding out exactly what your laser does pump out without using specialist equipment?

By the way Joe, here in the UK the last quote I was given for a replacement laser was £11000 GBP so when you think it's bad, they are kicking the heck out of us!

[Mike Null]

My 25 watt ULS lasted until the 36th month and died. Then they had a 3 year warranty and sent me a new tube overnight.

ULS will send you a meter to test the output of the tube--I think they charge about$125 then refund it when you send the meter back.

One of my reasons for buying a Trotec this time around was that they had the only 3 year warranty I could find.

Keith's right--it is ridiculous to pay $20-30 thousand and not get a 3 year warranty.

[Joe Pelonio]

Frank - could you have someone here buy it and ship to you? Hopefully you don't need to worry about it for a long time (knocking on wood).

You can buy or rent a power meter that measures the output, but they are not cheap. I haven't used one but it seems like you'd have to measure the output before any optics for complete accuracy, and that means taking things apart. I know some people here have used them, maybe one will chime in. In my case Epilog wanted to test it before sending the replacement because a power drop could aslso be caused by an overheating power supply. On the new tube they measure the power, run it a few hours, then measure again to make sure it's OK before shipping.
I should have it tomorrow, then will have to work all weekend to start catching up with the orders that have piled up.

[Michael McDuffie]

My $29,995, five year old this month Epilog Legend 24 70 watt machine has seen 600 hours at the most and is still going strong. It will happily incinerate stuff if I'm not careful with power and speed.

It once ran for 5 hours continuously at 2% speed 100% power while etching a piece of limestone without a problem.


Michael

[Joe Pelonio]

My $29,995, five year old this month Epilog Legend 24 70 watt machine has seen 600 hours at the most and is still going strong. It will happily incinerate stuff if I'm not careful with power and speed.

It once ran for 5 hours continuously at 2% speed 100% power while etching a piece of limestone without a problem.


Michael

I asked about the cost of a more powerful one this time but they said the Legend TT maximum was 45 watts, is yours the EX? They say running it that long at full power doesn't hurt, may even be good for it.

I think the tube is kind of like the luck of the draw, as in car engines and transmissions. As usual my luck is bad. Maybe this time the 3rd one's the charm. Epilog buys the tube and just puts it into the machines so they cannot be blamed for the bad ones, though a longer warranty would sure be helpful, even if they raised the initial purchase price to cover it.

[Michael McDuffie]

Mine predates the TT and EX machines by a bit and looks like this Legend 32 (http://www.epiloglaser.com/preowned.htm)

Phil was still the rep at the time and he told me that my machine seemed to have a lot more power than 70 watts and told me that if they didn't have a 70 watt tube on the shelf they had been known to put a hotter tube in and sell it as a 70 watt machine.

Michael

[Patrick Cooley]

All,
I have a Epilog 24EX 60 watt that's 2.5 years old. I do 4-8 hours of work on it a week. The ULS sales person stopped by last week and we measured my wattage. It was down to about 40 watts. That's only about 1040 hours. That's BS! I was told it would last up to 20,000 hours!

I'm going to be upgrading in a couple of months, and now I have to go get the tube replaced before I sell it. I wouldn't feel right selling it with something that's failing. Doesn't make me real happy!

By the way, right at the end of my 2 year warranty, my display gave out and then a cable and solidstate control on the laser arm. I'm sure glad that was covered... That would of been a chunk of change as well.

Pat.

[Joe Pelonio]

All,
I have a Epilog 24EX 60 watt that's 2.5 years old. I do 4-8 hours of work on it a week. The ULS sales person stopped by last week and we measured my wattage. It was down to about 40 watts. That's only about 1040 hours. That's BS! I was told it would last up to 20,000 hours!

I'm going to be upgrading in a couple of months, and now I have to go get the tube replaced before I sell it. I wouldn't feel right selling it with something that's failing. Doesn't make me real happy!

By the way, right at the end of my 2 year warranty, my display gave out and then a cable and solidstate control on the laser arm. I'm sure glad that was covered... That would of been a chunk of change as well.

Pat.

Did he measure it at the inside of the laser, where the beam goes to hit the mirror at the upper left? If so, it could still be a problem with one of the two mirrors before that point. Have you noticed a difference in the speed/power settings from when it was new?

You might consider dropping the asking price for the amount of the tube and sell as-is. As long as you are honest, the buyer could try to get some hours out of the old one. Using it that little it may last longer. Mine went from 45 watts to 13 in less than 2 weeks but I was running it 10 hours a day.

[Patrick Cooley]

Hi Joe,
Yes it was inside the laser. The last 6 months or so the settings have been creeping up. I've always had to use more power the the suggested settings, but I was told that each laser is different, so it wasn't a big deal.

I just talked with one of the laser manufactures to get the scoop from the horses mouth. He stated that hours really doesn't mean much. They usually get a laser back for referbishment somewhere between 3-5 years. The actual hours doesn't seem to play as much into the demise as time does.

He did tell me that once the laser is putting out less then 33% of it's intended wattage, then you can do more damage to it by running it longer??
He also told me that it's was very uncommon for a laser to lose that much power in just 2+years. Looks like I need to take a closer look at it.

Thanks
Pat.

[Joe Pelonio]

Hi Joe,
He also told me that it's was very uncommon for a laser to lose that much power in just 2+years. Looks like I need to take a closer look at it.

Thanks
Pat.
May be uncommon to him, but from what I read here and my own experience it's way too common. Hopefully Keith's data gathering will give us a better idea on that.

As for running it with low power, damaging the tube further is not a problem since it has to be replaced anyway. You may as well run it down until it's toast like I did. Unless somehow it's bad for other parts of the machine??

[Patrick Cooley]

May be uncommon to him, but from what I read here and my own experience it's way too common. Hopefully Keith's data gathering will give us a better idea on that.

As for running it with low power, damaging the tube further is not a problem since it has to be replaced anyway. You may as well run it down until it's toast like I did. Unless somehow it's bad for other parts of the machine??

Joe, Your probably right, I should just run it.... Well, after the first of the year I'll be buying my new laser and finding new problems all over again.
I agree, with Keiths comment, for the money we pay you think we could get a 3 year warranty on everything. The Trotec looks appealing because of their 3 year warranty.... but it doesn't cover the tube for more then 1-2 years depending on your wattage.
I'll make sure to post my decision on what laser I buy and why...
Stay tuned...
Take care,
Pat.

[Dave Jones]

the last quote I was given for a replacement laser was £11000 GBP

That sounds like the cost of buying a brand new laser tube (and marked up quite a bit at that). When people here are talking about sending in their bad tube and buying a replacement, they are in most cases talking about the engraving company sending them a refurbished one.

For example, if my tube died and I sent it back to Epilog, they would send me another used tube they got from somebody else, that they have repaired and tested to be putting out at least what mine was originally rated at. Mine would then be repaired and sent to the next person with a bad tube.

The core tube itself lasts a very long time. Most of the failures happen to the electronics, which can be repaired quite a few times before the core tube finally goes bad and the whole thing has to be thrown away (or tube recharged)

[Frank Corker]

Joe, believe me, when the day comes that I actually do need a tube (please God don't let that happen) I will be going to the States to get one, even if it means flying there myself (arms will hurt though...)

I think it is pretty much stated by most laser engravers, it seems to be luck of the draw for what and how long they last.

[Rodne Gold]

We have gone thru at least 24 tubes over 8 various lasers over 6 years or so , both synrad and coherent. The 20 000 hours is absolute bull!!!!! I dont think I have ever had more than a yrs use of a tube without hassles. (round 7 hours continual use a day - 200 days - 1400 hrs!!)
Small power decreases are optics/alignment issues generally , anything like a sudden drop to 1/2 power is most likely a failed RF board and if you run it that way , total failure soon is almost 100% guaranteed.
Easy way of measuring a power drop is to cut a piece of 3mm pex when the tube is new , mark down the speed setting used and compare it to now, speed will be directly proportional to power.
Critical to tube life is keeping the tube and its enclosure dust free and making sure the fans etc arent clogged up - heat is a killer.
The components used to repair the RF boards are pennys , and synrad at least will send you a whole white paper explaining how to repair them , problem is you need an oscilliscope and a laser controller to tune the boards and that we dont have. In south Africa , we have an indpendant repair facility and they will charge like $1000 to refurb a tube.

[Joe Pelonio]

That sounds like the cost of buying a brand new laser tube (and marked up quite a bit at that). When people here are talking about sending in their bad tube and buying a replacement, they are in most cases talking about the engraving company sending them a refurbished one.

For example, if my tube died and I sent it back to Epilog, they would send me another used tube they got from somebody else, that they have repaired and tested to be putting out at least what mine was originally rated at. Mine would then be repaired and sent to the next person with a bad tube.

I asked that specific question and was told that when you buy a new tube it's a new tube, the old are sent back to be refurbished but those are used on sales of used lasers, which are advertised as "refurbished". Whether that's true or not I don't know, but when mine arrives today I'll look at it closely and see if there's any indication one way or the other.

[Dave Jones]

Before I bought my used laser I was going to buy a new Epilog and I had been reading about people having tubes fail under warranty and having new ones sent overnight to replace them. I had also seen stories of people out of warranty paying $1200 to $1800 to replace a dead tube.

A bit of research showed me that new tubes cost in the range of $6k-$12k, so I was pretty sure that you don't get a new one for $1500.

I called Epilog and spoke to a tech about it. I was concerned that if I bought a new machine and had a tube fail, that instead of repairing mine, which would have very few total hours on it while still under warranty, they would send me a replacement that had possibly a lot of hours on it, but was repaired and working. The tech confirmed this to be true. He said that when they get a bad tube back from a customer they send out whatever repaired one they have on the shelf that meets the power requirements and then they repair the one they received and stick it on the shelf to send to the next person with a failed tube of the same power.

Perhaps when it's an older machine or under warranty they do repair/rebuild the same tube you send them. I don't know. But I seriously doubt that they are sending you a brand new one for the price you mentioned.

[Mike Null]

My 25 watt ULS tube lasted 36 months with moderate use. The replacement is in its 6th year.

If you're going to do a study I suggest that you break it down by wattage as it seems that the higher wattage tubes may have a shorter life. Tube brand would also be necessary information. Air cooled or water cooled, etc., etc.

The other variables that might be of interest are location and primary material engraved or cut.

In response to an earlier remark, my Trotec 45 watt carries a 36 month warranty on the entire machine excluding lenses.

[Joe Pelonio]

Before I bought my used laser I was going to buy a new Epilog and I had been reading about people having tubes fail under warranty and having new ones sent overnight to replace them. I had also seen stories of people out of warranty paying $1200 to $1800 to replace a dead tube.

A bit of research showed me that new tubes cost in the range of $6k-$12k, so I was pretty sure that you don't get a new one for $1500.

Actually it's $2,300 for the 45 watt, wish it was $1,500!


I called Epilog and spoke to a tech about it. I was concerned that if I bought a new machine and had a tube fail, that instead of repairing mine, which would have very few total hours on it while still under warranty, they would send me a replacement that had possibly a lot of hours on it, but was repaired and working. The tech confirmed this to be true. He said that when they get a bad tube back from a customer they send out whatever repaired one they have on the shelf that meets the power requirements and then they repair the one they received and stick it on the shelf to send to the next person with a failed tube of the same power.

Perhaps when it's an older machine or under warranty they do repair/rebuild the same tube you send them. I don't know. But I seriously doubt that they are sending you a brand new one for the price you mentioned.
While I agree with that, it's NOT what this particular tech told me on the phone. I was skeptical about his answer, so you are confirming what I thought was true.

[Dave Jones]

I didn't go back to see what you had said the actual figure was. I just remember the range it was in seemed to me at the time to fit with the refurbished price range I had been told about.

It'll be interesting to see what actually arrives on your doorstep.

[Joe Pelonio]

The new tube looks new but it's not like an old one would show wear. It's
Coherent serial # is 3583-02. Maybe the 02 is the original manufacter date?

The good news is I got it installed, adjusted and tested in about 1/2 hour
and seemed to have lucked out on the actual power. I have always run 1/4" acrylic at speed 6, this one cuts enough that the piece drops out at speed 12, on all 4 corners of the material. I'm experimenting to see what speed gives the smoothest edge, but for many production jobs that don't need the perfect edges it will save some time.

I sure hope this is the one that lasts. . .

[Dave Jones]

Sounds good. It sounds like either this is really strong, or your last one was weak all along.

I found an example of a serial number tag on the Coherent site, but not example serial numbers. The tag it showed for their lasers had a model and serial number as well as a manufactured date. I'm sure the OEM versions are not marked the same though.

[Joe Pelonio]

Sounds good. It sounds like either this is really strong, or your last one was weak all along.

I found an example of a serial number tag on the Coherent site, but not example serial numbers. The tag it showed for their lasers had a model and serial number as well as a manufactured date. I'm sure the OEM versions are not marked the same though.
No mfr date, I checked closely, just a hand written "inspected by" date which in this case is 9/3/06.