"Clear Vue Versus Oneida" A REAL Test

[Jay Albrandt]

Hello everyone,

I want some real data and answers. No more questions, accusations, quotes, and drama.

I got $100.00 dollars to donate to the cause of getting to the bottom of this. If it takes more, I will step up! Will you!

If there isn't any well done study that will test the various cyclones under the same conditions...lets do one!

If there isn't any well done study that will test the variety of filters that are being discussed....lets do one!

We could contract it out to Consumer Reports or even Fine Woodworking. There has got to be someone out there who can do an unbiased, independant test.

Hello, Oneida....Clear Vue.....Grizzly.....Tempest...Torit.....Wynn Environmental..... Will you back your product?

Let's do a single, well designed, head to head study. Who's with me.

Jay

ps: Maybe we could talk Keith into handling the money through the "donate" button like we have in the past.

Peace.

[Phil Thien]

I applaud your enthusiasm. However, I'm not convinced that such a test would be very straight-forward. Too many details to get two sides to agree to, like: Shop-based or lab-based test? And, how to configure ducting? You get the idea.

[John Bailey]

Lately there's been a lot of testing done. I think all the data is good, but like anything else, it's all in how you interpret the data. Each of us has different needs in our shops, therefore, the need to interpret the data in different ways. Because dust control is a fairly complex issue, one has to do a lot of research to be able to make a competent judgement for your own situation. That being said, I think most of the new cyclones will probably outperform most of the non-cyclones and do an outstanding job. So, if it were me, I'd read as much as I could and be happy with my choice, or, hire an expert and be happy with their choice.

John

[Phil Thien]

Lately there's been a lot of testing done. I think all the data is good, but like anything else, it's all in how you interpret the data. Each of us has different needs in our shops, therefore, the need to interpret the data in different ways. Because dust control is a fairly complex issue, one has to do a lot of research to be able to make a competent judgement for your own situation. That being said, I think most of the new cyclones will probably outperform most of the non-cyclones and do an outstanding job. So, if it were me, I'd read as much as I could and be happy with my choice, or, hire an expert and be happy with their choice.

John

Yep, well said.

[Ken Garlock]

Regarding the cyclone, it only has to pass the 'Willie Nelson' test.
Can it suck the chrome off a trailer hitch?:confused:

[Jim O'Dell]

About all testing cyclones is going to do, and I'm not saying this isn't good, is tell whether they perform, CFM wise, as advertised. If set up properly, it could also tell us how effecient it is at separating the dust/chips and how much of it goes to the barrell before it gets to the filters. Beyond that, it is just testing filters. Do they capture the size perticles they are advertised to capture, and at what percentage.
I don't think we need to test brand against brand. Give me the information I pointed out above and let me make the decision. But I would like to see those tests. I said in another thread, what we need is a University to apply for a government grant to do the study. Maybe we could to a write in campaign to sway the keepers of the money to approve it!:D :D Jim.

[David Giles]

We could just manifold the inlets of two cyclones, turn both on and see which one sucked dust out of the other one. Which wouldn't tell us anything except static pressure at no flow, but it would be fun.

[Mitchell Andrus]

Studies like these have likely been done, you just have to find and pay for the rights to the results. I sat on my town's planning board for many years. A coffee roaster came in looking for a permit to roast coffee and the professional he brought in had several volumes of real life test data on filtration, air flow, capacity/suspension, OSHA tests, air space recharge rates, barometric/humidity factors, etc.

Pay a pro to design a system for you and you'll have the 'best' system for your needs. They are out there ready to take your money. Two experts will no doubt design two 'best' systems that differ a bit. Pick one?

Or, buy the best DC unit you can afford and design the system yourself and spend the professional fees on something more worthwhile. No, I'm not saying protecting your health isn't worthwhile. I'm saying getting that last 10% in DC efficiency will drive you nuts and likely double your costs.

This reminds me of the occasional 'which saw blade is better' question.

I'd like to see a comprehensive head-to-head test too, but the results would likely be so specific to a set of circumstances that they would be unusable but for a few specific situations.

Mitch

[Jameel Abraham]

I would love to see a test like this. I'm currently in the market for a new collector and being a novice am torn between the 2hp Super Gorilla and the Clear Vue. I've read a good portion of Pentz's site, but the burning question for me remains this: why does the Clear Vue need 5hp to get 1400 CFM, but the Super Gorilla only needs 2hp to get the same CFM? Anyone care to explain?

[Doug Shepard]

I vote we either have Bill and Mr Witter square off on WWE Smackdown or turn the whole issue over to the Discovery Channel Myth-Busters.:D

[Jim DeMarco]

Let me attempt to make this easy. First I am assuming a home shop, or low production shop. Design your duct work first! A single machine is the easiest design (only one machine operating at a time). The largest draw would have to be the planner, design using this (figure ~800cfm at the machine).
Check out both air handling systems, and onidea for charts giving velocities, and equivilent length. Start at the machine, design back to the collector. When complete (it is not that difficult, fairly basic math) you will have a pipe diameter, a velocity, and a PRESSURE DROP. The pressure drop is the KEY, using your velocity and pipe diameter you can get an equivilant volumetric flow rate. Now knowing your cfm requirement at a pressure drop (inches of water) you can spec a system.

See, simple right. ha ha
I would be happy to check calcs, or assist you on this. PM or email me if you have more questions.

[Jim O'Dell]

I vote we either have Bill and Mr Witter square off on WWE Smackdown or turn the whole issue over to the Discovery Channel Myth-Busters.:D

While that would be fun to watch, I often question the methods they use. :D :D They can prove if something is likely to do what is said it will do, or not, but they certainly don't use many scientific checks and balances, for the most part. I still think we need to get someone in the scientific field interested in doing a government grant to study this. Of course, we'll all be gone, or won't be able to remember how to turn our tools on, by the time the study was completed. :eek: Jim.

[Cecil Arnold]

Jameel, you need to read Bill's site a little more closely. The 5 hp Leeson is loafing along with one or two blast gates open. An amp meter should indicate it is using only 2-3 hp. Open too many gates on the Oneida and you may over amp (burn up) the motor.

[Jameel Abraham]

Now I remember reading that Cecil. Bill Site is so huge that its a lot to retain, especially for a beginner. Anybody want to buy a 3hp motor? :D

[Cecil Arnold]

I know, I've spent way too much time there it seems.

[Mark Rios]

.............This reminds me of the occasional 'which saw blade is better' question.
................

Mitch


Occasional????:D :D :D :D

[Bill Boehme]

Jameel, you need to read Bill's site a little more closely. The 5 hp Leeson is loafing along with one or two blast gates open. An amp meter should indicate it is using only 2-3 hp. Open too many gates on the Oneida and you may over amp (burn up) the motor.

Why doesn't the same thing apply to the Leeson motor? Are they different types (compound vs. over-compound, etc.) A motor designed for air-handling duty is designed for a certain load torque range for peak efficiency. Outside that range, efficiency drops off which means more energy is dissipated in the motor in the form of heat. Would the Leeson motor perhaps be a general purpose type?

Bill

[Jim O'Dell]

Bill, don't know if this helps, but IIRC the Leeson motor is a compressor duty.
Jim.

[Cecil Arnold]

Bill,

My understanding of this is that the Leeson is a 5 hp, compressor duty motor. It is rated at 21 amps, which is what 5 hp (220v) should draw. When an amp meter is attached to the motor and all the gates closed, the motor pulls a low amperage (IIRC something in the range of 10-12) and when all the gates are open it can pull 21+ amps which endangers the motor. The conclusion (and some testing I have seen somewhere but can't recall where) is that with one or two gates open you will be pulling in the range of 14-16 amps. This is a safe range for this motor, but might start to overwork a smaller, lower amperage one.

Having said the above, I have to admit that the sum of my knowledge is based on reading several discussions on the web. However, as much of a hot button issue as all things DC related are right now, I have not seen any postings by any of the engineers/electricians to refute this understanding. I realize the idea of less work with the gates closed is counter intuitive, but seems to be true.

[Jan Williamson]

My leeson 5 hp motor on my Clearvue draws 7 amps with no gates open, 10 to 12 with one or two gates open and 15-16 amps with all the gates open. I have 8 gates total, and I have some leaks from cheap gates too.

[Dennis Peacock]

I'm not here to start a fight, But let's get back to reality for just a brief moment in time here........

Let's think about this.

In the first place, we purchase a DC setup because we get tired of sweeping up the floor, emptying out a clogged up machine, cleaning up bandsaw tires from caked on sawdust, AND to help us see and breathe a little better.
We are not doing woodworking in a "clean room" environment, but a way to have a centralized location for collecting and emptying the sawdust and woodchips we create in our shops. All the fuss about 99.995% filter effeciency. Sheesh!!! Get in your car and see how clean the air is. How about outside or inside your own home. We can all die just as easily from the outside air we breathe than what we are exposed to in our own shops. Respiratory protection is a must if you are concerned about it. If you are overly concerned about it? Then you need a different hobby.

...ramble mode off...

Just my 2¢ on the topic. Now....I return you back to your regularly scheduled movie. :D

[Keith Burns]

Well said Dennis, well said.

[Rob Bodenschatz]

I'm with you Dennis. I'm not gonna tell anyone else what to care about but I have enough worries in my life. I refuse to make this one of them.

[Cody Colston]

If you are overly concerned about it? Then you need a different hobby. :D

Hehe...I wrote the same thing a couple days ago but deleted it without posting. Thanks for saying what I wouldn't. ;)

[lou sansone]

I'm not here to start a fight, But let's get back to reality for just a brief moment in time here........

Let's think about this.

In the first place, we purchase a DC setup because we get tired of sweeping up the floor, emptying out a clogged up machine, cleaning up bandsaw tires from caked on sawdust, AND to help us see and breathe a little better.
We are not doing woodworking in a "clean room" environment, but a way to have a centralized location for collecting and emptying the sawdust and woodchips we create in our shops. All the fuss about 99.995% filter effeciency. Sheesh!!! Get in your car and see how clean the air is. How about outside or inside your own home. We can all die just as easily from the outside air we breathe than what we are exposed to in our own shops. Respiratory protection is a must if you are concerned about it. If you are overly concerned about it? Then you need a different hobby.

...ramble mode off...

Just my 2¢ on the topic. Now....I return you back to your regularly scheduled movie. :D

yea what he said


lou

[Alan Simpson]

Very well put Dennis. I couldn't agree more.

[CPeter James]

Well said, Dennis. Enough of this "my widget is better than your widget." Lets get on with good questions, answers and helpful information. If someone wants opinions on a particular tool or product, then people can relate their experiences, good or bad with that product, but putting down others products to make yours look better is out of place, IMHO. I just spent the day at a woodworking tool show in Portland and the better vendors tell what is good about their product, and do NOT knock their competitor's product. Both sharpening machines were there and both seemd to do a good job. The presentations were of a different tone for the two machines. One was defensive and one more positive. It would influence my buying decision.

CPeter

[Bill Boehme]

I would be hesitant to use a compressor duty motor in a DC system because compressors are not continuous duty systems. I don't know offhand what the design duty cycle rating is for a compressor motor, but I suspect that it is no more than 50% which is also usually expressed as no more than a certain number of minutes of continuous operation over a specified period of time. I don't have a cyclone type DC yet, but I suspect that the normal practice is to let it run continuously while working at a machine.

Bill

[Charlie Plesums]

Jameel, you need to read Bill's site a little more closely. The 5 hp Leeson is loafing along with one or two blast gates open. An amp meter should indicate it is using only 2-3 hp. ...
A cynic may wonder if the Clearvue (Bill's design) doesn't include a 5 hp motor not only to be safe, but to be considered a 5 hp cyclone, competitive with other more expensive 5 hp systems. The specs look more like a 3 hp system to me, and it is price competitive with some of the other 3 hp systems.

If I have misread the specs, I welcome your input

[Jim O'Dell]

Charlie, even Bill Pentz has referred to this motor as a 3hp. Many say it has an amp draw that would be consistant with a 5 hp. motor. This is from Leeson's web site on this motor:

Electric Motor Warehouse is installing the C-Face end bell on the
Leeson Motor # 120554 and will ship them out as a complete unit to you.
This should save you from having any problems in disassembling and reassembling the motor.
Single Phase · Capacitor Start/Capacitor Run
Open Drip Proof Enclosure · Reversible
C-Face · Rigid Base · 3450RPM
230 Volts 60hz · Reversible · Service Factor = 1.0
Manual Overload Protection · Class F Insulation
Shaft: 7/8" diameter x 2¼" Length

Dust Collector Motor

Catalog # 120554C ........ Description 5hp 3450 RPM 145T Frame ..... AMPS @230v 20.8 ........ WGT 47# ....... Price (price deleted by me)

Note: This is a compressor duty motor with #175181 C Face kit installed

I had to change some of the format to make it legible, and as noted, I deleted the price. Leeson calls it a 5 hp motor, and I was correct in my recollection (that's a surprise!:eek: ) that it is termed a compressor duty motor. Hope this helps. Jim.

[Cecil Arnold]

A cynic may wonder if the Clearvue (Bill's design) doesn't include a 5 hp motor not only to be safe, but to be considered a 5 hp cyclone, competitive with other more expensive 5 hp systems. The specs look more like a 3 hp system to me, and it is price competitive with some of the other 3 hp systems.

If I have misread the specs, I welcome your input

Charlie,

I'm about as cynical as they come and would agree with your conclusion. I wonder if they used the motor in an attempt to get a desired SP through 6" pipe, since the CV uses that diameter inlet and the other two brands have 7" on their 2 hp & 8" on their 3 hp IIRC. Regardless, I think we all need to read as much as we can stand then make our buying decision. That's why they make Fords and Chevorlets, or Felder, Mini-Max, and Format. The real problem, as I see it, is that there is no modern, reliable, real world, standard for small shop DCs. We are faced with salesman's pump, obfuscation, and owner loyalty to sort through while attempting to get the best product for our $$ and equipment layouts. I guess in the final analysis, I don't really care how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, I just want something that sucks and keeps the air clean.

[Jim O'Dell]

But think about all the motors used for this purpose, whether they be 2 hp or 10 hp....they all run at the same speed, right? More horsepower will not give you more CFM, unless there is a bigger load causing the motor to drop in speed.. The impellor at the same speed, regardless of hp will produce the same air flow. The extra horsepower will keep that speed, and therefore air flow, at the same rate easier when a bigger load is placed upon it (I would think the extra load would be another blast gate open).
An analogy would be two identical vehicles. Trans and rear end and tires exactly the same. Only difference is the engine. One has a 200 hp V6, the other a 300 hp V8. Both vehicles will travel the same speed at the same RPM. Why have the bigger engine? Which one is going to tow a boat easier? Right, it all has to do with the load. Several have used 2 hp Delta motors on the Pentz home built cyclones and it has worked fine.
Effeciency of the impellor does not change with hp. My limited knowledge of impellor design leads me to believe that they are designed to work their best at a given speed. Higher speed may not lead to higher CFM. Although the design of the impellor could dictate what it needs to drive it effeciently. I know a blade in water will cavitate in certain conditions. I don't believe air has this same problem, but does anyone know if something similar happens? I know some prop driven airplanes have a variable prop to lesson some sort of reaction of the prop with the air. Jim.

[Jim DeMarco]

Well said Jim, this is the big missconception many manufacture try to seel HP to the consumer. If you read my prior post on this topic, the ONLY thing that matters in a properly sized DC system is velocity, and pressure drop at the DC. Granted, as you stated, this all assumes that the impeller is running at it's designed speed!

[Dennis Peacock]

Well said Jim, this is the big missconception many manufacture try to seel HP to the consumer. If you read my prior post on this topic, the ONLY thing that matters in a properly sized DC system is velocity, and pressure drop at the DC. Granted, as you stated, this all assumes that the impeller is running at it's designed speed!

EXACTLY!!!!!! What gets me is why even get on a HP kick? :rolleyes: :D

[Randy Denby]

Jim, one thing I believe you missed is that rpm is the same, but diameter of the impellor/ depth of the impellor/ curve, etc changes to take advantage of a higher horsepower motor. Designed right it will draw more cfm at a higher static . But installing the same impellor on a 2 to a 5 horsepower motor will not have any advantage unless the 2 hp was overamping .

[Jim O'Dell]

Unconciously :rolleyes: that's what I alluded to when I said something about the impeller design might dictate the hp rating of the motor. Thanks for making it clearer! Being able to draw higher CFM at a higher static is the loading that allows the higher hp to handle the task easier, like pulling the trailer behind a vehicle.
I also think that Ed has gotten some good help with impeller design, going from the original 14" Sheldon impeller to a 15", and now a 16" available, and no recommended increase in hp. Maybe this was his design, or maybe Bill Pentz's hand is helping this too. I haven't heard for sure, but haven't asked. I think the one I have is the 15", but could still be the 14". Jim.

[Noah Katz]

I believe that compressor duty means it has high starting torque, and that SF (service factor) =1 means that it can run continuosly at its rated FLA (full load amps).

[Pete Bradley]

I believe that compressor duty means it has high starting torque, and that SF (service factor) =1 means that it can run continuosly at its rated FLA (full load amps).

The Service Factor indicates the amount of continuous overload the motor can be subjected to without damaging the motor.

The Duty Cycle is the ratio of time the motor can produce rated power to total time. For example, some compressor-duty motors can't deliver rated power continuously, they need a percentage of cool-down time.

Pete

[Curt Harms]

EXACTLY!!!!!! What gets me is why even get on a HP kick? :rolleyes: :D

Talking about H.P. fits the sound bite model. Talking about C.F.M @ S.P. doesn't. When's the last time You heard (inset your favorite shill here) talk about air flow and static pressure?:D

Curt