Tell me about scrapers!!

[jonathan snyder]

HI folks.

I'm hoping you can educate me a bit. I have a few cheap card scrapers that i have played around with a bit, but never really got them tuned up properly. I was working on a hickory headboard for a murphy bed, and ended up with some tearout while hand planing. So out of necessity, I sort of learned how to joint, and turn a bur on a card scraper. It sure saved the day and took care of the tearout. Im not sure that i had a optimum bur on the scraper, but i was getting some fine shavings along with a bit of dust. All is well but I have tired and slightly burned finger tips!

Now on to the questions!

I plan to get some better card scrapers, probably from LV. Does anyone use the scraper holder from LV? How about the variable burnisher they sell, anyone use it? Is it better than a burnishing rod?

Is a cabinet scraper such as the old stanley #80 or the #12 scraper a better option than a card scraper for large areas? Do they both work like a card scraper, in that you need to turn a bur?

How about a scraper plane, is that an even better option, and do you need to turn a bur on that blade as well?

So many options and so many wonderful hand tools to acquire, but so little cash!!

Thanks
Jonathan

[Mark Singer]

Jonathon,
Card scrapers are really under rated...I would get the Lie Neilsen pair...they are perfectly jointed and the steel is far better than the LV scrapers. Don't get the vairiable burnisher....just get a rod burnisher...you can feel what you are doing and see it. The black LV box keeps it a secret and you cannot tell what is happening. There are 4 potential edges on a card scrapper....run a few layers of tape over one long edge...that will leave you 2 edges and protect your hands from the other 2....which if sharpened with a burr are real sharp!
Don't get the card scraper holder...you need to feel what you are doing. Using your thumbs bow the scrapper as you push it.
A common problem is to roll the burr too far and then it will not cut...just roll it lightly use oil... I will put a heavier burr on one edge and a smaller on the opposite...so with one scrapper you are ready for many conditions.
If you watch David Marks on DIY ...he uses the card scraper correctly and the sweeping motion as effective in blending the passes..
The #80 and the scraper plane are good....different and not as versitile IMHO...I have them all...even a paint scraper is good to removed glue lines and blend....for now work on the card scrapper...it is cheap and well worth the effort to learn properly....When Jim Becker and I visted my friend Kirk Sand, the Master Guitar Maker...he reached for his scrapper and said it was has best tool!....One edge was tapped just like mine.
http://www.lie-nielsen.com/images/hss_lg.jpg

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Jonathan

Card scrapers are among my favourite tools. They are capable of being used in a number of ways. These depend on how you hold and use them, which edge you use, the angle/degree of hook appplied, and the thickness of the steel. For such a simple tool the answer may sound complex. But really they are so simple and intuitive to use than all bar a chisel.

I would also probably go for the LN set since I understand that they contain a selection of blade thicknesses. I have made my own, and the thicknesses vary quite a bit.

If I am cleaning up plane marks or smoothing the surface, then I want a flat blade. This either means pulling a thin blade towards oneself or pushing a thick blade away. Any bow in the blade will leave a slight hollow in the timber surface (which may only be evident in certain light, or with gloss finishes). This is desirable when removing small areas of tearout.

Don't get the Variable Burnisher (I have one - it works very well, but is limited to a thinner blade). I use the Crown burnisher, which is round. Don't be tempted to use the back of a screwdriver or chisel, etc - treat the scraper blade as it it were a plane blade - what shape is on the edge goes onto the wood surface.

The ideal angle is between 5 - 15 degrees, the lower one producing a less aggressive hook and less aggressive scraping.

I hone 8 sides on my scrapers (4 sides, back and front). I like the short ends especially since they will scrape flatter.

I like the visibility that is offered by a card scraper, and it is just so much more intuitive to use.

Regarding the #80, I am cautious about its use as a finishing plane owing to the deep camber that can be induced. I have blades that I made out of thicker steel and these are stiffer and camber less. The thing is that one adjusts for depth by inducing camber/curve. My #80 tends to be reserved for scraping glue off joints, for which it does a great job.

Because the #80 is a fixed angle, it is important that it is set up right. I use it with a hook. The #112, on the other hand, has a variable angle blade, and this allows a wide range of cutting angle settings. This feature is the strength of the #112. I prefer to use mine without a hook since this way it cuts less aggressively. My Stanley, along with rthe LN, also uses a thick blade, one that does not flex, and so there is less likelyhood of planing a hollow (unlike the #80). The LV version can use both thick and thin blades, so gives you even wider choices.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Dennis Peacock]

Well, since I'm not a full-blooded Neander just yet, I'll pipe in here.

I have all the LV stuff including their scrapers, variable burnisher, mill file with holder, blah, blah, blah.... I really like the LV scrapers, the mill file with file guide and yes...even the variable burnisher. Now, since I don't have a "real" woodworking bench nor anything to hold my scrapers while I put a bur on them, I have to make to with holding them in my hand. What I have learned from watching Tage Frid is to use the back of an old chisel that has the back lapped and shinny. Maaaaannnnnn, does that ever work good!!! Just a touch of oil for a lube (and I mean a "tiny" bit rubbed on both side) and in just a couple of rubs with the back of the chisel and BANG.....you're ready to make some curls with a card scraper. :)

I also have the Sandvik(spell??) card scrapers and since I'm not a metalurgist of any sort? I can't tell the difference between any of my card scrapers.

Oh yea, the card scraper holder by LV. Yes, I have that too. I do use it and I like how comfortable it is in my hands, but there are times where you'll want to hold that scraper in your "own two hands" and use it. Just be "careful"! If you sharpen that baby correctly? and you get sloppy when handling it? It will "cut you" and "cut you bad". DAMHIKT:o :o :o

OK....I've rambled on enough here. Call me silly, but I have the LV stuff and I like it. If there is better? Then I want to know that as well. I have learned that card scrapers can save you a LOT of sanding and provide you a better surface overall. Really cool tools come to think about them. ;)

[Tony Zaffuto]

Ditto what all has been said plus: don't over complicate the issue! When I first started TRYING to use a card scraper I failed miserably! I was using every little doo-dad and jig to try to sharpen and roll the edge. I was using a holder for the card. And I could never quite get any of it right and basically gave up.

After a year or so I came upon are article by a guy who simply free-handed a file over the edge of the scraper and then lightly rolled the burr. I tried it and miracle of miracles, it worked! That showed me the potential of what a scraper could do. I then started to refine the methods by filing and then honing the edge. I got a short piece of carbide to roll the burr and scraping became easier and easier.

Was it because I was using it more and learned to hold my tongue correctly or was it the preparation technique? Don't really know, but I do know that going through all the gyrations at first of trying to make the scraper work didn't do any good for anyone other than the vendor. Keep it simple and see how it works and then refine technique. Oh also, use hardwood for your first experiments.

[jonathan snyder]

Thanks guys

Lot of info to digest. I will look at the LN scrapers, and perhaps forgo the LV variable burnisher & holder. I guess I will get better at turning a bur, as time go on. Practice make perfect!! I sure am thankful that i had the cehap scrapers as I was able to salvage the headboard!

Jonathan

[Larry Browning]

I AM at the stage where Tony WAS! I have tried using a scraper and have failed miserably! I have been TRYING to us a knife sharpening steel to put a burr on the scraper but cannot seem to get anything more than just a little burr that I can barely feel with my thumb. Then when I try to use the thing I don't get much results. I figured that a sharpening steel would work well, am I wrong?

[Tony Zaffuto]

Larry,

As I already posted, I "succumbed" to trying too hard and using too many gadgets to accomplish a simple task. Try filing the edge and then lightly stone the edge and the sides. Lay the scraper FLAT on your bench with the edge of the scraper about 1/4" back from the edge of the bench and roll your burnisher on the scraper TOUCHING the edge of the scraper and the edge of the bench. Make sure you rub your burnisher on the side of your nose for a bit of oil (I'm Italian!). Then put the scraper in your vise and turn the burr, but don't push too hard--lightly does it.

Then try the scraper on a piece of cherry or what have you. Try holding at different angles until you start to get "fluffies". Then refine your techniques. If at first you don't succeed, try, try again.

As I said, I over-complicated the process and as I simplified, lo and behold it works beautifully!

T.Z.

[Tony Zaffuto]

As a post-script, if the sharpening steel has serrations and is not smooth, I don't think it will work. Try a good quality screwdriver shank and see if that helps.

[Derek Cohen]

Here is a link to a pictorial essay I wrote on preparing a card scraper. It will provide a starting point.

http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?t=22508

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Larry Browning]

As a post-script, if the sharpening steel has serrations and is not smooth, I don't think it will work. Try a good quality screwdriver shank and see if that helps. As a matter of fact it does have the serrations, but this is a old steel and most of the serration has been worn down. I think I may try an old chisel I have. BTW I don't think I even own a GOOD screwdriver:confused: and if I did I would have a hard time using it to burnish a scraper (I wouldn't want to scratch the shaft)

[Derek Cohen]

As a matter of fact it does have the serrations, but this is a old steel and most of the serration has been worn down. I think I may try an old chisel I have.

Larry

The only thing worth scraping after preparing the blade with a serrated steel is a glue line.

Once upon a time I brought home a spanking new wooden smoother, unwrapped it and marvelled at the fine shavings that it made straight out the box. They were like gossamer. I ran my hand over the wood surface ... and it felt as rough as guts. Not surprising, really, as the blade had only been honed with about 800 waterstone and it was possible to see the serrations on the bevel.

With blades you get what you hone. Use a knife sharpening steel... and you can use it to peel oranges. Fine woodworking? Forget it.

Stop mucking about. Get a dedicated burnisher. They are cheap enough.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jake Helmboldt]

I have the Sheffield scrapers and I could never get a good edge on them. So I bought the LV burnisher which came with a scraper. I now get a nice edge on that, but I still don't get as good an edge on the Sheffields, although better than I could freehand w. a chromed steel rod (not a true burnisher).

So, I'll keep working on learning to burnish freehand, but the LV works in the meantime. I think it is worth it (and boy, it is cool once you start getting real shavings and not dust).

If Mark Singer reads this; Mark, I noticed on your Wenge table that you sanded after scraping. I thought that was taboo; it seems some purists see planing or scraping as the ultimate smoothing and frown on sanding. I'd say it certainly doesn't show on your work. Beautiful pieces (and inspiration).

Jake

[Mike Wenzloff]

Especially on Wenge, it fuzzes too much, splinters, etc.

Sanding has been done for hundreds of years. Great way to get a finished surface.

Take care, Mike

[Mark Singer]

I have the Sheffield scrapers and I could never get a good edge on them. So I bought the LV burnisher which came with a scraper. I now get a nice edge on that, but I still don't get as good an edge on the Sheffields, although better than I could freehand w. a chromed steel rod (not a true burnisher).

So, I'll keep working on learning to burnish freehand, but the LV works in the meantime. I think it is worth it (and boy, it is cool once you start getting real shavings and not dust).

If Mark Singer reads this; Mark, I noticed on your Wenge table that you sanded after scraping. I thought that was taboo; it seems some purists see planing or scraping as the ultimate smoothing and frown on sanding. I'd say it certainly doesn't show on your work. Beautiful pieces (and inspiration).

Jake

Jake,
There is a lot of hype about a pure hand planned or hand scrapped finish and I have many planes and scrappers.....certain woods yes! Many woods no! and that is relly how it is. All the Moser furnitute is sanded....Maloof furniture...sanded...Tear out is avoided and if the surfaces are not planner..you must sand. Scrappers are still great for flushing the boards....removing marks...removing machine tear out...and many times as a finished surface , but not always. Sanding is many times the best way...

[Jake Helmboldt]

Now I won't feel guilty as if I'm selling out because I resort to sand paper on those challenging woods.

Jake

[Bill White]

On the burnisher issue.....I made mine from an engine wrist pin. Plenty hard, and I turned some handles for each end. Little bit of oil, couple of swipes, and I'm in the scraping business.
Bill

[jonathan snyder]

I have been using a wrist pin also, but have been wondering if a real burnishing tool would be more effective?

JOnathan

[Blaine Harrison]

I also use scrapers fairly often. I was at a class taught by David Marks a week ago (great teacher, btw) and he was preparing a Lie-Nielsen card scraper right out of the package. He went through the entire process from using a bastard file all the way up to 2000 grit water stone before he started to roll the burr. I was surprised he went all the way up to 2000 grit, but he said it was key to getting good shavings. In the sharpening classes I had taken previously, all the teachers said 220 grit was good enough.

Now I gotta take a couple extra steps when prepping my scrapers.:rolleyes:

Blaine

[Dave Lehnert]

Just FYI. If you subscribe to Fine woodworking magazine they will send you a Lie Nelson card scraper as a gift. Got it in the mail today.

[Jeff Bratt]

Everyone has made good points, and I second those suggestions, plus I'll throw in my 2¢. Until I saw someone using a properly prepared scraper, I didn't realize how useful they could be. Even my first class learning about them wasn't taught very well, and I didn't get it at first. Now, I'll use a scraper on every project - replaces lots of sanding.

I like the control and visibility afforded by holding the scraper in my hands - however, at times, it can get uncomfortably hot. Also, some people prefer the holder if they have trouble bending the scraper to use it.

Suggestions:
1) A knife honing tool that has (or had) serrations won't work - get a burnisher - they're cheap.
2) I have several card scrapers - it's easier to prepare all of them at once - then it takes some time to wear all of them out before sharpening is needed again.
3) I have both LN and Sandvik card scrapers and they both work well. I like the thinner LN scraper for variety - it's much easier to bend if your want a tighter, smaller radius curve.
4) While others get by with only using a file and a burnisher - I hone the sides and then the edges on my waterstones before turning the burr.
5) I like the LV "dial in" burnisher tool - but it's not necessary. Plus the hand burnisher techinque will also work on curved scrapers.
6) A scraper that is just honed square - without a burr - will still cut, and can be used to scrape veneers and limit the amount of wood shaved off.

If everything is working properly you'll get big fluffy shavings off your scraper like this (http://home.san.rr.com/jeffnann/WoodWorking/Shop/CardScraper.JPG). If your scraper just produces dust, something isn't right...

[jonathan snyder]

Wow this one was dredged up from the deep! Almost 2 years old. Since I was the op, I thought I'd chime in. I bought the LN scrapers and a Hock burnishing rod. I recommend both. The burnishing rod works much better than the Chevy wrist pin I was using.

I was helping by BIL build an arts & crafts style mirror last weekend. I pulled out the card scraper to tame a bit of tearout. As soon as the first shavings rolled off, he said "wow, I want to try that"

Jonathan

[Dan Carroll]

Okay, good info on the card scraper. I am setting up the Stanly #12 I was given a while back. I picked up a hock iron when I was in Atlanata last week are Highland Hardware. Any advise on setting up the tool?

[Gregg Feldstone]

Has anyone tried the LV tri-burnisher? Like it?

[John O'Neill]

As always everyone here gives excellent advice. Like Zahid, I'm a visual learner and it wasn't until I actually saw how to do it, did I get it, That being said, there are a couple of good tutorials up on YouTube. Search for 'card scraper'. This one is pretty good from Woodsmith:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rfUi8Nm6_Jg&feature=related