Upgrading motors on bandsaw/tablesaw

[David Romano]

I'm considering some different options for motors on my tablesaw and future 14" bandsaw. I'm think of buying the ShopFox W1706. It seems like a good machine, CI wheels, 4" dust port, quick tension release, a nice guard height adjuster, etc, but it has only a 1 hp motor. I tend to use some pretty tough woods like Jatoba and Hard Maple. I also want to add a riser block to it. Then take my tablesaw which is the General International contractor's saw. It has a 2 hp motor which struggles sometimes with the thicker pieces causing burning.

My idea is to put the 2 hp motor at 3450 rpm into the bandsaw and increase the machine's pully ratio by a factor of 2 to slow the effective speed down to the original 1725 rpm. This should also increase the torque. Then buy a 3hp motor for the tablesaw. There is a Leeson on Amazon for $257.00.

Any thoughts on this? Instead of changing the bandsaw pulleys, can I reduce the RPM of the motor itself?

Thanks,
David :)

[Rick Lizek]

Typically a 3 hp motor is a bigger frame size than will fit properly on a contractor saw. When I was working for a dealer as a tech my standard solution was to suggest they go to a dedicated rip blade. Less teeth requires less power and will solve the problem.

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

It's been my experience that burning isn't caused by too little power but rather by dull blades. Or possibly you are using the wrong blade?

I commonly use an 80 tooth 12" NonFerrous Metal Blade for everything. I have recently beedn using the NFM blade for rips and cross cuts in 2" thick maple with no burning so long as I don't dwell. But when the blade dulls you notice it first as burning and a slower cut.

As Rick said check motor mounting issues for size and the moput plate.

I'm not a big fan of riser blocks. That said why are you considering a brand new saw that is (as you described) inadequate right out of thebox? Why not look at a heavier saw?

Slowing a motor electronically will require a Variarc or something just like it. Gen Rad made Variarcs. They work well enough but pulleys will do the job for way cheaper.
A large part of a motor's HP rating is tied up with speed. If you de-rate or slow a motor electronically you won't get anything near the rated HP.

[Kent Fitzgerald]

I have to agree with Cliff that you'll be happier in the long run with a heavier duty bandsaw. Take the money you'd spend on a motor, pulley, and riser block, add that to your bandsaw budget, and look at an 18" steel frame saw.

Then the bandsaw can become your thich-stock ripping machine, and the 2 HP on your TS should be just fine. Check the alignment on the TS, get a good splitter, and go to a thin kerf blade if needed.

[David Romano]

It's been my experience that burning isn't caused by too little power but rather by dull blades. Or possibly you are using the wrong blade?

As Rick said check motor mounting issues for size and the moput plate.

I'm not a big fan of riser blocks. That said why are you considering a brand new saw that is (as you described) inadequate right out of thebox? Why not look at a heavier saw?

Slowing a motor electronically will require a Variarc or something just like it. Gen Rad made Variarcs. They work well enough but pulleys will do the job for way cheaper.
A large part of a motor's HP rating is tied up with speed. If you de-rate or slow a motor electronically you won't get anything near the rated HP.

Hi Cliff,
I use a freshly sharpened 40 tooth ripping blade and though I might try fewer teeth, and burning aside, there is a reduction in blade speed.

The physical size of the 3hp is definitely one of my concerns. Where can I learn more about motor frame sizes?

It was a matter of killing two birds. If I just put the extra money into a better bandsaw, I don't improve my tablesaw. The idea was that for under $300, I could improve both. What's wrong with riser blocks? In theory, there would be more frame flex, but in practice does it make a difference?

I definitely would not reduce the motor speed electrically. I would mostly easily reduce the bandsaw blade speed by changing the ratio of the upper and lower pulleys. So the motor would still spin at 3450 rpm, but the blade speed would be correct.

David

[Rick Lizek]

You make no mention of tooth count on your bandsaw. Less teeth should cut with no problem with 1 hp.

Again I think you should use a dedicated rip blade with no more than 20 teeth. A shop with an older 1 hp Unisaw would always shut down when ripping 8/4 stock. I put a 10" 10 tooth rip blade from the pallet industry and it now cuts 8/4 stock with out stopping. The cut isn't too bad either plus everything gets jointed anyway. Grainger has a chart in their catalog that lists specs on frame sizes and I would suspect the website has it as well. A google search on motor frame sizes should turn up a ton of sites. A new blade is cheaper than a motor and with a 3 hp motor you should add a magnetic starter.

[Bart Leetch]

David

Believe it or not a changing from you current motor on your table-saw to a 2 HP motor will make quite a bit of difference :eek: & not be as heavy weight wise as a 3 HP motor. Back in the early 70's my Dad received a free 2 HP motor which he put on his contractor saw & still runs to this day. :D I run a 1 1/2 HP compressor duty 1725 RPM motor that I just happened to have sitting around my shop ;) when I wanted to upgrade my Grizzly G1018 with riser block & 1/2" Timberwolf blade to cut through 10" & 12 " material which it does with no problem. :D However if I were to purchase a new band-saw today I would opt for a bigger saw. :eek: :D I use this saw to cut thick material & have an older 12" Craftsman BS from the 50's with a 1/4" blade for all other cutting this is a good combination. The smaller saw gets the most use of the 2 saws.

[David Romano]

Thanks for the advice everyone! :D

David

[Neal Flatley]

Hi

Be carefull trying to vary an AC motors speed with a Variac. The motors speed is set by the line frequency and number of poles the motor has. AC motor speed controllers vary the frequency of the output voltage for control, hence VFD or Variable Frequency Drive.

The speed of the motor will eventually slow down with a low enough voltage, but the motor will have much less torque.

Neal

[Al Willits]

Does bring up the question (to me anyway) at what point does it actually make enough improvement to justify the cost of upgrading the motor?

I have a 3/4hp 14" Delta and see there was a 1 hp version offered, would it make sense to change motors by just a 1/4hp or should one look for a maybe 1.5 or 2hp motor to use.
Then there's the question of how much HP can a 14" saw actually use?
Would a 2 hp motor over power a 14" band saw?

Not sure, but is there a point of no return on motor size??

Be nice just to upsize like reccomended, but some of us just don't have the dispoable income for max output tools and have to make do with what we have.
Might be a bit difficult to explain $30 or 40k worth of pro line tools to the little women for just a hobby...god knows what she'd want in return....:)

Al

[David Romano]

Does bring up the question (to me anyway) at what point does it actually make enough improvement to justify the cost of upgrading the motor?

I have a 3/4hp 14" Delta and see there was a 1 hp version offered, would it make sense to change motors by just a 1/4hp or should one look for a maybe 1.5 or 2hp motor to use.
Then there's the question of how much HP can a 14" saw actually use?
Would a 2 hp motor over power a 14" band saw?



Al

Al,
I'm wondering the same thing. I figured that upgrading a tablesaw from 2hp to 3 hp would be a good move, as would upgrading a 1 hp bandsaw to 2 hp. I don't think my contractor's saw could handle more than 3hp, nor the bandsaw more than 2 hp.

And anyway, the "breaking point" here only occurs when the cut is so difficult that the full rating of the motor is needed, that is, the blade is about to stop anyway. This is not what happens in normal use. At this point, the motor is outputting maximum power and has the most potential to bend or break the machine. But all we a looking for is a little more testicular fortitude to get us through the occasional tough cut, not to help us beat the crap out of the machine.

David

[Barry Beech]

Another think to think about with an upgrade to the table saw is the pullys and belts. I have a uni with a 3hp motor and it has 3 belts. I'm really not sure that it would be necessary but I think that if you want to get the power out of a 3hp motor you would need to modify the pully system on the tablesaw.

The band saw that you are looking at is the same as the grizzly g0555 which I have with the riser block. I have bogged it down a couple of times but both of those were my fault (too fast of a feed rate). I think the hard maple and Jatoba would be fine as long as your not trying to resaw 8in or wider boards.

[David Romano]

Another think to think about with an upgrade to the table saw is the pullys and belts. I have a uni with a 3hp motor and it has 3 belts. I'm really not sure that it would be necessary but I think that if you want to get the power out of a 3hp motor you would need to modify the pully system on the tablesaw.

The band saw that you are looking at is the same as the grizzly g0555 which I have with the riser block. I have bogged it down a couple of times but both of those were my fault (too fast of a feed rate). I think the hard maple and Jatoba would be fine as long as your not trying to resaw 8in or wider boards.

Good point on the 3 belt pulley. That might be a problem. The Grizzly 8" jointer I have G0490 has a 3hp motor and 1 belt, but I don't think it really uses all of those horses.

I doubt that I would be resawing the full 12" that the riser allows very often, though I do see me doing it occasionally.

David

[Bartee Lamar]

Watch out for the weight of a 3hp on a contractors saw. You will have trouble if you want to tilt the blade to 45 degrees. This could torque the parts that hold the motor.

I have 2hp on my old contractors saw and I have problems with this.

[Rick Lizek]

The unisaw doesn't really need three belts to get full power. It's a throwback to the days of overbuilding. PM went to 2 belts on the 66 years ago. Proof is if you look at modern sliding panel saws. They typically have 7 to 9 hp and use a single small belt. Certainly no loss of power on the European saws I've used. We have an 18" blade for our Griggio slider and it may squeal a bit on start up, it certainly hasn't bogged down cutting 4" thick material. This is on saws with the motor at a fixed distance unlike a contractor saw which is typically held by the weight so the usual solution is a Fenner drive or a cog belt which conforms to smaller diameter pullys and is cheaper than a Fenner. The memory bounce produces the loss of power on contractor saws.
Three hp motors are usually too heavy for contractor saws.

[Eddie Darby]

I clean my blade while it is mounted on the saw, just before I make a cut that I think will burn. An old tooth brush and a good cleaner sprayed onto the teeth, with a cloth to protect the table top. Please make sure the saw is unplugged! I run thin kerf blades with washers/blade stabilizers.

I would put all my marbles into the very best possible bandsaw I could get.

[Tim Morton]

I do not think I would put a 3HP on a contractor saw. Am I correct in assuming you are running a 2HP now and it is at 220v? A 3HP will run you close to $350 and you can get $350 for most contractors saws....so that leaves you close enoguh to a cabinet saw to make it VERY tempting. If you are not already running 220v then I definitely would not make the upgrade to 3HP.

[scott spencer]

Hi David - I like Kent's idea of putting the money from the 3hp motor and adding it to your BS budget as opposed to putting a smaller saw on steroids. That way you're buying the a more substantial saw in the first place.

I also don't think the GI trunnion system won't handle the added weight of the 3hp motor very well, and the belt drive system definitely isn't designed to transfer that much power....most 3hp cabinet saws have 2 or 3 v-belts. If you're GI isn't cutting through just about everything you throw at it, the first thing I'd do is double check you're alignment, check pulley alignment/belt tension, and re-examine the blade selection and sharpness....a 40T blade is too many teeth to rip 3" Jatoba with a contractor saw. With a decent 24T thin kerf blade, that saw should tackle just about any wood up to full blade height. If the alignment is spot on, and the blade is up to the task, and you're still not where you want to be, I think you'd be better off just upgrading to the right tool for the job. If you get a good BS, that should be able to tackle any of the woods that are too thick for the TS anyway....

[Jeffrey Makiel]

I went the same route and was dissatisfied...

I installed a 3hp motor and machined pulleys on a Sears contractor tablesaw. It shook like the hind leg of a cold dog. Since the motor hung by gravity, it tried to climb up the belt during heavy cuts. I ended up just buying a cabinet style saw.

I also began the same trend on my 14" bandsaw. However, after I considered the cost of the riser block and a new motor, and thinking about my tablesaw debacle, I choose to get an 18" bandsaw. Besides, an 18" bandsaw can turn a wider blade (3/4" in lieu of 1/2") and generally has a beefier fence.

I apologize for sounding abrupt. But given the wonderful machinery market today, and the ease of selling your old equipment which is fairly desirable, an upgrade will most likely provide the best long term solution.

cheers, Jeff :)

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

I use a freshly sharpened 40 tooth ripping blade and though I might try fewer teeth
The 40 Tooth blade should be fine. I am assuming it's ground for wood. I use an 80-tooth NFM blade almost all the time, it's slower than a wood blade but gives a superb cut.


and burning aside, there is a reduction in blade speed.

Reduction in blade speed meaning - - the motor is straining and the blade slows?




The physical size of the 3hp is definitely one of my concerns. Where can I learn more about motor frame sizes?
The manufacturers. I'd call the Saw maker tech people also. I'll bet they have a wealth of knowledge.


It was a matter of killing two birds. If I just put the extra money into a better bandsaw, I don't improve my tablesaw. The idea was that for under $300, I could improve both. What's wrong with riser blocks? In theory, there would be more frame flex, but in practice does it make a difference?

Frame flex and error introduced in alingment. More than anything else I just don't trust 'em. Band saws place a lot of tension on the frame.


I definitely would not reduce the motor speed electrically. I would mostly easily reduce the bandsaw blade speed by changing the ratio of the upper and lower pulleys. So the motor would still spin at 3450 rpm, but the blade speed would be correct.

You'll take advantage of a lot of the HP the motor can produce that way. V belts are huge power sappers the Friction alone chews up as much as 10% to 15% of the motor output, Straight gears are way better at about 5%, chains are good and flat steel belts are the best at transferring power.


If you want to take advantage of whatever HP the saw's motor has you might consider re-pullying the main drive/reduction it with a flat belt before you spend the $$ on a new motor.

[David Romano]

Thanks again for everyone's input! This is why I research these things well in advance of doing them. I think it would be best just to put the extra $$ into the bandsaw. The Griz 0513X looks like the best saw for the money and though it is quite a bit more $$ than the older option, I tend to look at every purchase as though it is my last, and the upgrade will be well worth it. LOML agrees.

David Romano

[Curt Harms]

Thanks again for everyone's input! This is why I research these things well in advance of doing them. I think it would be best just to put the extra $$ into the bandsaw. The Griz 0513X looks like the best saw for the money and though it is quite a bit more $$ than the older option, I tend to look at every purchase as though it is my last, and the upgrade will be well worth it. LOML agrees.

David Romano

I've thought about the G0513 but I have a small shop space, and the G0513 isn't exactly petite. Just got to see the Rikon 10-325 at Highland Hardware. It seems like an interesting alternative for small spaces but still has 12" resaw and 1.5 h.p. motor. I wonder if Griz has a lead on a competitor? Somebody needs to buy one and post a review:D

Curt

[Charlie Plesums]

Years ago when I had a contractor saw, a discussion on the vendor's forum explored upgrading the motor. Finally the vendor pointed out that the bearings wouldn't handle it, the tilt mechanism wouldn't handle it, the belts wouldn't handle it, etc.... bottom line, don't do it.

I have 4.8 hp motors on my current equipment (four of them in the shop). I broke a belt, and bought cheap replacements (since that was what I could get on a Friday afternoon). When it died in a few months, I studied belts, and found that belts that look alike can be rated from fractional hp to multi hp... So I threw away the $5 belts and bought $17 belts that looked similar, and works fine. Bottom line, the count of how many belts doesn't tell the whole story... you may need better belts, or more belts, or both.