Dumb electrical question

[Frank Snyder]

Okay...why can't I find a 40amp 220v outlet at my local Borg stores? They have the 20amp and 30amp 220v twist-lock outlets, but no 40amp. I'm running a 40amp circuit for my 5hp planer, and I'm trying to find the correct outlet to use.

Much appreciated!

[Tyler Howell]

Frank,
I hard wired my 5 hp PM 66 to a disconnect. Works great, enough cord to move for sweaping:cool:

[Jim Becker]

I can't answer the supply question, but 30 amp should be fine for a 5hp unit in most cases. My 4.8hp MM FS 350 is on 30 amps and that is within the parameters required. What does your motor plate say about it's amperage?

[Alan DuBoff]

The BORG doesn't carry too much 240v and no 3 phase at all. I was able to get 30 amp single phase 240v (L6) at my local BORG. I have a 30 amp circuit so that matches up what I have. I use L6 to plug my rotary phase converter into, and then have a long extention which was given to me with my table saw, and I just had to replace the dryer connector on it, and now have a long L6 extention to 240v single phase.

Many 240v machines seem to use a different smaller connector, such as the Unisaws, and those are 15 amp or 20 amp as I recall. My friend that helped me wire my garage was very staunch of using the exact same plugs and recepticals as the entire circuit back to the panel breakers, gauge of wire as well.

[Frank Snyder]

Thanks for the help, guys. I'm parking my table saw and my planer in the middle of the garage, so I'm most likely going to install outlets (locking) in the ceiling. I'm using a Siemens 20-slot 100amp panel as my subpanel, so I'd prefer to use breakers instead of quick-disconnects.

I haven't actually uncrated any of my new equipment since it has been in storage since before I began my workshop construction, so I have no idea what the motor plate FLA says. I did e-mail WMH for an amperage requirement for each of their tools which I have, and the 209 planer was listed at 28amps. I'm not sure if this would trip a 30amp breaker or not. If not, then I would use a 30amp breaker and outlet instead. I already purchased the 8/2 wire for the planer, so I'm good for 40amps. I just wasn't sure where I could locate a 40amp outlet or if such a thing even existed.

Thanks again!

[CPeter James]

The answer to your question is they don't make a 40. They go 20, 30, 50.

http://www.stayonline.com/reference-nema-straight-blade.aspx

CPeter

[Kent Fitzgerald]

As far as I can tell, there is no standard for a 240V, 40A plug. The NEMA specs jump from 6-30P (240V, 30A) to 6-50P (240V, 50A).


I'm using a Siemens 20-slot 100amp panel as my subpanel, so I'd prefer to use breakers instead of quick-disconnects.

I'm not sure what you mean by "quick disconnects," but you do understand that any circuit requires a breaker, right?

[Frank Snyder]

The answer to your question si they don't make a 40. They go 20, 30, 50.
Well then, there we have it. Thank You!


I'm not sure what you mean by "quick disconnects," but you do understand that any circuit requires a breaker, right?
Tyler mentioned a disconnect for his PM66 so he could hard wire it instead of using a plug and receptacle. That was all I was referring to. I said "breakers" but I meant to say "plugs and receptacles". I'm using breakers....don't worry ;).

If WMH says 28amps for the 209 planer, can I get by with a 30amp breaker and receptacle?

[Alan DuBoff]

Tyler mentioned a disconnect for his PM66 so he could hard wire it instead of using a plug and receptacle.That might be safe, but I don't see the advantage of doing that. The disconnect is to protect the circuit in case of a problem on the end that is plugged in. [EDIT: and to be able to run more than one tool on the same disconnect]

I don't have an opinion either way, but I have a disconnect between my tool and panel, as an extra pre-caution, since it has slo-blo fuses in it. Make sure you get slo-blo, even if you skip the receptical/plug combo, and double pole so you can use it for 240v.

Also, there's many very cheap square D that have a type of pull-out fuse holder, and I didn't like those, although they probably do work fine, most aren't slo-blo.

I got one from Lowes that is a Square D, but with a hefty on/off lever switch rather than the pullout. It was only $30.

If WMH says 28amps for the 209 planer, can I get by with a 30amp breaker and receptacle?Two points I'm gonna throw out, one for 3 phase that most likely won't be applicable to you.

First, the circuit should only use 80% of the max amps on the circuit, so with a 28 amp draw, that will put you at about 35 amps, or translated to mean you'll need a 40 amp circuit. If you have a 30 amp circuit, it's possible to upgrade it to a 40, but this will depend on if you have the amps available, and that you upgrade the wire to accomodate the extra amps. I can't remember how you calculate if you have enough amps, since you can have more than the max amps on breakers as you will (i.e., SHOULD NOT;-) be running everything all the time.

Additionally, for those needing to operate 3 phase Rotary Phase Converter, the rule of thumb for the conversion from single to three phase is that you need 1.6x the amount of amps. So, for a 23amp 7 1/2 HP motor, that would require a 37~ circuit, or translated to a 40 amp also. This is the type of phase converter that would be needed for a 5HP tool, since it is reccomended that folks have 1.5 the max HP on their RPC as the max motor being used.

In my case I have an RPC that says it only requires 30 amps, but the 7 1/2HP idler on the RPC does in fact only draws 19 amps. A 19 amp motor does translate roughly to 30.4 amps when calculating the 1.6, and that number is arbitrary but what most knowledgable folks will quote you. DISCLAIMER: I'm not a knowledgable electrical person, but got a friend that was to help me and asked a LOT of questions online.;)

[Jim Becker]

Alan, the disconnect that Tyler refers to is like a switch that opens the circuit. Unlike the breaker at the other end that protects the circuit, the disconnect specifically protects the human (and tool) at the other end of the line when maintenance needs to be done. It completely severs the connection between the machine and the power. If you look near your A/C unit outside of your house, you'll see a gray box that is used to disconnect power from the unit during servicing...that's what he is referring to. These are used to "simulate" unplugging of hard wired equipment.

[Rick Christopherson]

Because you are planning to install your planer as a cord-and-plug installation (versus hardwire) you DO NOT need to derate the circuit to 80%. Moreover, your motor will not be drawing FLA for very long. There is no reason why a 5 hp woodworking power tool needs a 40 amp circuit.

[Frank Snyder]

Hey Rick,

It sounds like you're recommending I use a 30amp breaker with a 30amp outlet. I already have the 8/2 wire, which I'll use, and that way if I do happen to trip the breaker, I can just swap out the 30amp breaker with a 40amp. I just didn't know that a 40amp outlet didn't exist. News to me...

[Alan DuBoff]

Alan, the disconnect that Tyler refers to is like a switch that opens the circuit. Unlike the breaker at the other end that protects the circuit, the disconnect specifically protects the human (and tool) at the other end of the line when maintenance needs to be done.Jim,

Yeah, I wasn't very clear, but mine is similar, just the type with a lever on the side, opposed to the plastic pull-out, and it's a double pole so both poles get disconnected, from the small 30amp slo-blo fuses.

I use it for 2 reasons.

1) protect the circuit if there is a problem with any of the 3 phase stuff at some point.

2) allow an additional plug to be added so I can use the same protection for multiple machines. Otherwise it would be hardwired into the disconnect.

With that said, it does act as a second breaker, and in theory the panel breaker should work fine, it's just an extra pre-caution on the circuit itself. This was reccomended by 2 different folks I talked to.

[Jim O'Dell]

I agree, Frank. Why have 40 amp 220 breakers if there isn't a receptacle to go with it??? I guess it could feed a sub panel, but you'd think 60 amp or higher for those. The main thing is that you are covered on the wiring. That's the important part. You can change breakers later if need be, like you said. I may need to change my run to where my welder will plug in to 8-2 w/gnd. It's on 10-2 now. Jim.

[Rick Christopherson]

Hey Rick,

It sounds like you're recommending I use a 30amp breaker with a 30amp outlet. I already have the 8/2 wire, which I'll use, and that way if I do happen to trip the breaker, I can just swap out the 30amp breaker with a 40amp. I just didn't know that a 40amp outlet didn't exist. News to me...
Yes, You can use a 30-amp breaker. I am sorry that you already bought the #8 wire, because this is going to be a bear to work with. I do not envy you with your task.

Number 10 wire is hard enough working with, but for number 8, kiss your weekend goodbye (OK, I'm almost just kidding).

If you can return the wire, then I recommend that you do so. If you can't return it, then you will just have to struggle getting this stuff to bend the way you need it to bend. You might have some difficulty getting the #8 to fit into a 30-amp fixture.

The fact that someone told you that you need a 40-amp circuit for this tool tells me that they do not understand electricity or even the NEC code. I can't be everywhere to fix these problems, but I do apologize for allowing someone to missinform you like this.

[Jim O'Dell]

So Rick, are you saying that 10-2 is fine for a 40 amp 220 breaker? What would be the distance limit of that? Sorry to steal your thread, Frank. You can have it back now! :D Jim.

[Charlie Knauer]

Rick, #10 romex is made from solid conductors. #8 is made from stranded conductors. It is not that much harder to work with than # 12 solid romex.

Charlie

[Kent Fitzgerald]

Why have 40 amp 220 breakers if there isn't a receptacle to go with it???
The only circumstance in which I've seen a 240V, 40A circuit is for a (hard-wired) cooktop.

[Rick Christopherson]

Jim, I am not sure if you are asking a legitimate question or being antagonistic. I get the impression that you know better.

[Jim O'Dell]

Rick, sorry if it sounded antagonistic. Certainly not meant toward any persons here. It just sounded weird to me. But then Kent's observation made perfect sense. Not all power circuits are used by a plug in device. That is what I didn't think of. Anyway, my appologies that it came out as possibly being interpreted differently than I meant. I'll claim it's the pain I'm in after yesterdays tumble. :) Jim.

edit. Rick, I just went back and read things...I may have not known which post of mine you were referring to. I assumed it was in reference to the one Kent had just quoted in his reply to me, but now I realize that I also asked you a question about the wire size. That is a serious question. I have a 10-2 w/gnd run about 33-34' from by breaker box to the outlet. Should this be changed, if I go to a 40 amp breaker for this receptacle, to 8-2 w/gnd., or is it adequate for the power. Now I'm confused as to which post of mine you are referring to. Thanks! Jim.

[David Klug]

Frank I did this with my TS and joiner and it works fine. I have a long cord on the TS because I move it all the time. I'm happy with it.

DK

[Rick Christopherson]

edit. Rick, I just went back and read things...I may have not known which post of mine you were referring to. I assumed it was in reference to the one Kent had just quoted in his reply to me, but now I realize that I also asked you a question about the wire size. That is a serious question. I have a 10-2 w/gnd run about 33-34' from by breaker box to the outlet. Should this be changed, if I go to a 40 amp breaker for this receptacle, to 8-2 w/gnd., or is it adequate for the power. Now I'm confused as to which post of mine you are referring to. Thanks! Jim. Yes, this is the question I was referring too, and now that I know that you were being serious, I am REAAALLY glad I deleted my original reply before you or anyone else read it, because my original assumption was that you were deliberately trying to be antagonistic regarding my previous posting. No harm--no foul!!:) (It would have been my mistake, not yours. That is why I am glad I decided to take the high road first.)

The answer to your question is NO, you cannot put #10 wire on a 40-amp circuit. There are some old "tap-rules" that I used to know very well that would permit this, but I don't know if they are still applicable. The 10 and 25 foot tap rules would allow you to use much smaller wires on circuits as long as the wire was fully exposed, such as a powertool cord. The idea is that the wire can't start an unknown fire because the wire is laying across the floor or other visible area.

If the wires that you speak of are permanent and in the wall, then you cannot up-size the breaker to 40 amps without upsizing the wire.

If the wires are exposed cords, then let me know and I will try to locate the tap rules that I used to know, and see what the specifics are about them.

[Bill Boehme]

........I'm parking my table saw and my planer in the middle of the garage, so I'm most likely going to install outlets (locking) in the ceiling......

You might want to check with your local inspector about having these twist lock connectors in the ceiling. It may be acceptable if the receptacle is one of the types that is installed in a receptacle box. However do not use an installation in which a wire cable comes through a strain relief in the recptacle box and terminates in a female cable connector. This type of installation has not been legal for a very long time. There may be special cables/connectors that can be used to accomplish this, but I am not aware of any. Personally, I think that a wire dropping from the ceiling will always be in the way when trying to cut large stuff on the TS.

Bill

[Tyler Howell]

[quote=Frank Snyder]Well then, there we have it. Thank You!


Tyler mentioned a disconnect for his PM66 so he could hard wire it instead of using a plug and receptacle. That was all I was referring to. I said "breakers" but I meant to say "plugs and receptacles". I'm using breakers....


Missing some of the fun here.
Hey Frank as Jim said the disconnect is a box with a jumper I can (and do) pull when changing blades, making adjustments etc. CMA!!! (is like CYA only mine) It has fused links that will self destruct if it exceeds it's limit but the breaker in the distribution panel will go first. It's in quick easy access for emergencies and there is no question its open or closed.

Worth considering at these high amperage levels:cool:

[Jim O'Dell]

Yes, this is the question I was referring too, and now that I know that you were being serious, I am REAAALLY glad I deleted my original reply before you or anyone else read it, because my original assumption was that you were deliberately trying to be antagonistic regarding my previous posting. No harm--no foul!!:) (It would have been my mistake, not yours. That is why I am glad I decided to take the high road first.)


Thanks, Rick. Yeah, the high road is always best until we have all the story! :D Thanks for the information. I need to decide if my little welder needs more than a 30 amp breaker, which is how I have it wired now. It's a hand me down from my Dad, so I really haven't even looked at the label yet. Walls are still open, so fairly easy to change out now if I need to.
Have a good week. Jim.

[Frank Snyder]

You might want to check with your local inspector about having these twist lock connectors in the ceiling. It may be acceptable if the receptacle is one of the types that is installed in a receptacle box. However do not use an installation in which a wire cable comes through a strain relief in the recptacle box and terminates in a female cable connector. This type of installation has not been legal for a very long time. There may be special cables/connectors that can be used to accomplish this, but I am not aware of any. Personally, I think that a wire dropping from the ceiling will always be in the way when trying to cut large stuff on the TS.

Bill - Thanks for bringing this up. I'll ask my building inspector about the twist-lock outlets in the ceiling. Most garage door openers have their outlets in the ceiling, so with the exception of the power cord length and amperage, I'd presume that this would be permitted. I'm not familiar with the strain-relief outlets you described, so that won't be an issue. As for the power cord hanging from the ceiling, I don't see it being in the way anymore than the 4" dust collection hose I'll have coming down from the ceiling in the same spot. If I have anything really oversized to cut on my table saw (like crosscutting a 10' length of plywood), I'll use my Festool saw instead for this task. Also, my table saw is a PM2000, so I can just lower the casters and reposition it as needed if something gets in the way;). Thanks for the feedback.

[Jim Becker]

Frank, the strain relief stuff is available at any full-service electrical supplier. (Not the 'borg) You put a box at the ceiling and the strain relief system physically connects to it. The drop cord (~ 16" or so) is encased in a constricting wire mesh which insures you can't stretch the cord. Your twist lock female goes on the end. In one respect, these are very nice for mid-shop drops as they hang low enough for easy access, but high enough that they are out of the way when not in use.

[Bill Boehme]

Frank, the strain relief stuff is available at any full-service electrical supplier. (Not the 'borg) You put a box at the ceiling and the strain relief system physically connects to it. The drop cord (~ 16" or so) is encased in a constricting wire mesh which insures you can't stretch the cord. Your twist lock female goes on the end. In one respect, these are very nice for mid-shop drops as they hang low enough for easy access, but high enough that they are out of the way when not in use.

Thanks for mentioning that, Jim. I figured that there was an improved product out there, but I had not come across it -- mainly because I wasn't looking for it. In "the old days", installations would just have a cable clamp on the wire at the ceiling and the weight of everything hanging on that point -- it didn't take too long for the insulation to be worn through.

Bill

[Jim Becker]

The wire strain reliefs appear to be just the ticket for this because they actually tighten around the cord "harder" when there is strain put on the drop. It's an even clamping action that spreads the effect over a large surface area, disallowing the cord to stretch like it would "naked".