Finally got to see the hot dog test!

[Kristian Wild]

Well I was just at the woodworking show at the Cloverdale Fair Grounds last night and got to see some great equipment and demos I've only seen in the Magazines or on the internet before. On the drive down I was thinking how I hoped the Saw Stop people would be there so I could see the hot dog demo for real. (They weren't there last year) Well much to my delight there it was in all it's black glory with an attractive young lady giving the demos and explanation of how the mechanism worked. "Next demo at 7pm" Well weather you support the idea or not (I know this has been covered exaustively here, so we can leave it alone) there were about 60 big burly guys crowded around waiting to see it for themselves. Even though we all had to listen to her pitch and we all knew how it was going to turn out, I have never seen so many people's attention intensely riveted on one small hot dog! When the moment finally came, everyone held their breath and I could have sworn a tremor went through the building when that wiener touched the blade and it went BANG! Everyone there jumped simultaniously, there were several comments of "I think my heart just stopped", and many wide eyes. Some teenager said "that was the coolest thing ever". Well I was impressed. I'm not 100% sold yet, but I was moved. Thanks for listening to my rant! I hope everyone is having a good weekend! Kris PS can anyone tell me how to keep these darn paragraphs separate? when I submit my post it's all condensed into one big blob.

[Ed Blough]

Frankly I'm of the opinion their faith in their product is shown by the worth of the object of their test.

How many would buy an airplane flown only by the manufacture using remote control? How many would buy a house that the builder would not enter? How many would pay for a braking system in their car that the manufacture only tests and demonstrates with crash dummies?

Nice looking saw, great concept but if you believe in it shove your hand into the blade and let us see what happens.
Ed

[Brad Olson]

I know at least one or two of the company owners have actually stuck their fingers into the blade, so I say they have a lot of confidence in their product.

Obviously, they can't do this each time.

[Per Swenson]

Jeez,

I have a second chance bullet proof vest for sale.
Of course you can try it out...


Per

[Jim Hinze]

And frankly, it's people like you who'll scream the loudest, and whine the most when they do cut off a finger...

Next time try an intelligent comparison.


Frankly I'm of the opinion their faith in their product is shown by the worth of the object of their test.

How many would buy an airplane flown only by the manufacture using remote control? How many would buy a house that the builder would not enter? How many would pay for a braking system in their car that the manufacture only tests and demonstrates with crash dummies?

Nice looking saw, great concept but if you believe in it shove your hand into the blade and let us see what happens.
Ed

[Ed Blough]

I know at least one or two of the company owners have actually stuck their fingers into the blade, so I say they have a lot of confidence in their product.

Obviously, they can't do this each time.


Brad how many cut their themselves by sticking their finger into a saw blade? Most of the time the hand is swung/jerked/fell or otherwise forcefully placed into the moving blade.

The manufacture contends his product which cost a young fortune will reduce injuries. I agree if we slowly feed our finger into the blade it will probably only nick it. However jam a hand down on the blade and compare those incurred injuries to ER reports of saw injuries and I think you will see most of the damage occurs in the split second it took to retract the blade.

Obviously if someone jams their hand into a saw blade and leaves it there it will be chewed up. But again most injuries are split second events. The hand hits blade with some force and is then knocked or yanked away almost instantanously. I'm saying I suspect that initial impact will cause the same amount of damage whether the blade stops instantly or not.

I would like to see a comparison. Okay I understand no body can use a hand. But what about a hog leg slammed into the blade as if someone had slipped into the saw blade? How much damage would be suffered.
Even that test wouldn't be real world since the a normal human body's reaction would pull the hand to safety faster than we can intentionally. But in any case I will bet the damage to be very similar to real world without the mechanism.

[Mark Rios]

Brad how many cut their themselves by sticking their finger into a saw blade? Most of the time the hand is swung/jerked/fell or otherwise forcefully placed into the moving blade.

The manufacture contends his product which cost a young fortune will reduce injuries. I agree if we slowly feed our finger into the blade it will probably only nick it. However jam a hand down on the blade and compare those incurred injuries to ER reports of saw injuries and I think you will see most of the damage occurs in the split second it took to retract the blade.

Obviously if someone jams their hand into a saw blade and leaves it there it will be chewed up. But again most injuries are split second events. The hand hits blade with some force and is then knocked or yanked away almost instantanously. I'm saying I suspect that initial impact will cause the same amount of damage whether the blade stops instantly or not.

I would like to see a comparison. Okay I understand no body can use a hand. But what about a hog leg slammed into the blade as if someone had slipped into the saw blade? How much damage would be suffered.
Even that test wouldn't be real world since the a normal human body's reaction would pull the hand to safety faster than we can intentionally. But in any case I will bet the damage to be very similar to real world without the mechanism.


Ed, While I'm not going to get into the merits of this discussion, I would like to point out that the brake would kick in and stop the blade before one would start to pull their hand/body part back. The brake engages quicker than a persons reaction time.

Just wanted to point this out.

[Art Mulder]

How many would buy an airplane flown only by the manufacture using remote control?
...
Nice looking saw, great concept but if you believe in it shove your hand into the blade and let us see what happens.


So, Ed, what kind of car do you drive? Because, I don't think I've ever heard of a car manufacturer where the workers are expected to sit in the cars as they slam them into walls to test the seatbelts. :eek::rolleyes:

Yet that seems to be the kind of car that you want. :D

But seriously,

I have not seen the saw in person, but I have watched the video a few times, and I have not seen them feed the hotdog slowly. When I saw the video, the hotdog was slid into it a perfectly normal, even quick, feed rate.

And from all that I've read on saw safety, the splitter/riving knife is a big part of keeping a TS safe, and should help a lot to prevent kickback and the other accidents that would throw your hand into the blade.

My thoughts.
...art

[Kristian Wild]

Ah well... I should've known. Like it or not, it's definately a passionate subject. Now can someone tell me how to make separate paragraphs? K

[Joe Unni]

...Now can someone tell me how to make separate paragraphs? K

Press enter twice at the end of your paragraph.

-joe

Oh, I've heard about (but have not seen) another demo where they take a chicken leg (drumstick) and slam it into the blade. Same results at the hotdog - just a scratch.

[Brad Olson]

Brad how many cut their themselves by sticking their finger into a saw blade? Most of the time the hand is swung/jerked/fell or otherwise forcefully placed into the moving blade.

The manufacture contends his product which cost a young fortune will reduce injuries. I agree if we slowly feed our finger into the blade it will probably only nick it. However jam a hand down on the blade and compare those incurred injuries to ER reports of saw injuries and I think you will see most of the damage occurs in the split second it took to retract the blade.

Obviously if someone jams their hand into a saw blade and leaves it there it will be chewed up. But again most injuries are split second events. The hand hits blade with some force and is then knocked or yanked away almost instantanously. I'm saying I suspect that initial impact will cause the same amount of damage whether the blade stops instantly or not.

I would like to see a comparison. Okay I understand no body can use a hand. But what about a hog leg slammed into the blade as if someone had slipped into the saw blade? How much damage would be suffered.
Even that test wouldn't be real world since the a normal human body's reaction would pull the hand to safety faster than we can intentionally. But in any case I will bet the damage to be very similar to real world without the mechanism.

You obviously havn't seen a sawstop demo.

They jam the hotdog into the blade as fast as possible.

SS doesnt stop injury, it reduces injury. Based on the handfull of demos I have seen of it now, I can safely say that you will keep your finger, but you will probably be in for a stitch or two, depending on how fast your finger is moving.

I personally haven't seen the live actual finger demo, but I don't want to see it. I'm just not that morbid enough to tell SS that they have to risk someones finger right in front of me to satisfy me.

[Mark Rios]

I just remembered....wasn't/isn't there a member here who actually had an "accident" with the SS and it worked exactly like it was supposed to? Does anyone remember that? He showed us a photo of his VERY small cut/punctures that he sustained from the accident as well as photo(s?) of the blade and brake. I remember him saying that he was very glad only to be having to replace the blade and brake mechanism and not paying for emergency room charges.

If it wasn't here then maybe it was over at Woodnet but I sure thought it was here.

[Jim Bell]

The Saw Stop System works as advertised. My problem is with the concept it completely eliminates table saw accidents. I would wrather see a new table saw user invest a few dollars in lessons on proper table saw set up and usage. Mebe a video? Then take a hundred or so and get an excellent blade for said table saw. The Saw Stop will protect against severe cuts. To me the real problem is there are so many other ways to hurt yourself or someone else with that machine. Some may feel bullet proof and not realize that there is more than one snake in that sack.:eek:
Jim

[Jim Becker]

Be nice folks... ;)

Jim
SMC Moderator

[John Miliunas]

OK guys, here's my take on it, FWIW. It's an additional safety device. As such, one can't simply take all the other safety practices we've learned and throw them by the wayside. It's really not much different from seatbelts or airbags. Neither of them will prevent accidents but, they will help reduce personal injury. That really applies to most any safety device on any piece of machinery. Let's face it, the only way we can make a TS 100% safe is to pull the plug and remove the blade! :rolleyes: And even then, you could hurt yourself moving the massive thing out of the way 'cuz now it's useless and in your way! (Well, except for turners who store blanks, spare chuck and other misc. turning tools on them. :D )

I happen to work part time at a place which now sells those beasts. Just last night, I was talking to a customer who is considering one. I told him flat out that it's NOT a cure-all to disaster(s) on the TS. The #1 safety device on it is still the gray matter between your ears! :) However, between the braking system, dual power lock-outs and easy on/off riving knife and/or splitter/guard, it is taking user safety to the next level. Is it for everyone? Let me just say that last evening I got into another discussion with yet another customer who doesn't use a splitter on his saw, because it's too much of a hassle! I was, at least, able to get the fella' into a Micro-Jig splitter. Now, I just hope he uses it! :) :cool:

[Alan DuBoff]

SawStop is a great idea, and it's not perfect but they're improving it.

I don't have any problem with it, but think it's good for folks to understand that the table saw is but one tool in our shops, at least for most of us. The biggest danger of the table saw in kickback, IMO, but that doesn't mean it's not good to have a device like the SawStop so that in the event that your hand would get put into the blade, it will reduce the personal injury as JohnM points out. I agree pretty much with his comments.

There is no device that will substitue using your brain. If you trip in the shop and your head hits the cast iron table, a SawStop won't do you any good at all in that case. If you use other tools carelessly, it won't help. Yes, it will help if you make a mistake while operating your table saw, where your hands or other body parts could come in contact with the blade. I wouldn't want to be the one testing out if it works with a hairy arm or not.

I was quite amazed to read Brad Olson's comment about a dealer having enough trust to put their own finger into the blade. This might show someone the trust the dealer puts in the product, but to me it shows un-needed carelessness to sell a woodworking tool, and I actually find it foolish. That's might not be as much trust as it is greed.

As I said, it's a good safety device, IMO, but it will not make the rest of your shop/tools safe, and there are other saftey factors with a table saw which are not related to getting your flesh cut. I bet the 5HP SawStop can slap a board back pretty good from kickback...:(

[Kristian Wild]

"Press enter twice at the end of your paragraph." Yeah, that works everywhere else but when i'm submitting on SMC. Maybe It's my computer? Maybe it's those sneaky moderators! I'm sure they must have my posts set to automatically condense. Soon they'll even take out the spaces between my words. ThenwhatwillIdo??? Any suggestions appreciated. BTW my whole toolbar at the top of this little box I'm typing in doesn't work, and I can't add any smilies either. Kris PS Sorry to start this again Jim, I thought we could just keep focused on the hot dog...

[Phil Pritchard]

My problem is with the concept it completely eliminates table saw accidents.
It doesn't stop kickbacks - ijn fact that deficient Biesmeyer fence design of theirs is very poor in that department. Why didn't they go to a Euro-style short-long rip fence as well?

Phil

[Eddie Darby]

If you're looking to buy a table saw to cut 4/4 wieners, then I would avoid the SawStop, it just doesn't get the job done!:)

[Per Swenson]

Okay,

I get to chime in again 'cause I own one.

No, sawstop technology does not stop kickback, but that riving knife sure does.

The stack in the pic below came off the planer today and goes on the saw in the morning. Its sister is on the truck all ready.

We do this day in day out between installs. Some of this lumber is twisty,
grainy ,nightmarish stuff, but its money.

Disaster is averted all the time with that knife setup.

Wasn't so much fun on my last two tablesaws. (I won't say which kind, keep this civil)

So here is my point. If you are pushing a thousand board feet a week
through your sawstop and are unhappy, I will certainly listen.

If your comment is born of gossip or internet speculation, well its just that.

Per

[Per Swenson]

Sorry,

Helps if I upload the pic so you don't think I am fibbing.

[Brad Olson]

S

I was quite amazed to read Brad Olson's comment about a dealer having enough trust to put their own finger into the blade. This might show someone the trust the dealer puts in the product, but to me it shows un-needed carelessness to sell a woodworking tool, and I actually find it foolish. That's might not be as much trust as it is greed.



Sorry if it wasn't clear, but I know for sure one if not two of the owners of SawStop the company did this at a woodworking show.

I did not personally witness it, but the person from sawstop who did it related the story of the ordeal to me at a booth of theirs at a product show. I heard from people that went to the show that this indeed did occur.

[Brad Olson]

Disaster is averted all the time with that knife setup.



It really annoys me that it has taken saw manufacturers so long to add riving knives.

My $250 ryobi BT3100 had a riving knife, but I can't find a regular cabinet or contractor saw with one (except the new powermatic 2000).

In my opinion, a riving knife is one of the best safety devices you can add. I can garuntee my next TS will have at least a riving knife if not SS technology

[Joe Jensen]

Ed, Wood Magazine did some high speed tests of the SawStop. They tried to similate kickback, and other more common accidents. Take a look...joe
http://www.woodmagazine.com/wood/story.jhtml?storyid=/templatedata/wood/story/data/sawstop_highspeed.xml&catref=wd5


Brad how many cut their themselves by sticking their finger into a saw blade? Most of the time the hand is swung/jerked/fell or otherwise forcefully placed into the moving blade.

The manufacture contends his product which cost a young fortune will reduce injuries. I agree if we slowly feed our finger into the blade it will probably only nick it. However jam a hand down on the blade and compare those incurred injuries to ER reports of saw injuries and I think you will see most of the damage occurs in the split second it took to retract the blade.

Obviously if someone jams their hand into a saw blade and leaves it there it will be chewed up. But again most injuries are split second events. The hand hits blade with some force and is then knocked or yanked away almost instantanously. I'm saying I suspect that initial impact will cause the same amount of damage whether the blade stops instantly or not.

I would like to see a comparison. Okay I understand no body can use a hand. But what about a hog leg slammed into the blade as if someone had slipped into the saw blade? How much damage would be suffered.
Even that test wouldn't be real world since the a normal human body's reaction would pull the hand to safety faster than we can intentionally. But in any case I will bet the damage to be very similar to real world without the mechanism.

[Bill Boehme]

Obviously if someone jams their hand into a saw blade and leaves it there it will be chewed up. But again most injuries are split second events. The hand hits blade with some force and is then knocked or yanked away almost instantanously. I'm saying I suspect that initial impact will cause the same amount of damage whether the blade stops instantly or not.

I would like to see a comparison. Okay I understand no body can use a hand. But what about a hog leg slammed into the blade as if someone had slipped into the saw blade? How much damage would be suffered.
Even that test wouldn't be real world since the a normal human body's reaction would pull the hand to safety faster than we can intentionally. But in any case I will bet the damage to be very similar to real world without the mechanism.
It is obvious that the faster your hand strikes the blade, the worse will be the injury. I saw the demonstration about two months ago and the weiner was laying on a board that was being fed through the blade at what I would consider to be about as fast as possible to rip a 3/4" board. The nick on the weiner was so slight that I could not see it without it being pointed out under very bright light. The Saw Stop people will be the first to tell you that you can still get a serious injury, but in any case, it would be better than an amputation.

As an example of what to expect if the hand were slapped at the blade -- a velocity of about 15 feet per second would be consider a very fast slapping motion. The blade moves at a much faster rate of about 50 feet per second. In addition to that, the blade is already stopped before it drops below the table. So as soon as the blade touches the hand, the trigger mechanism is activated in microseconds, there is a lag of a fraction of a millisecond for the brake to engage the blade teeth and drop below the table in less than 5 milliseconds. The result might be a trip to the ER to have a few stitches and hopefully no tendons cut. The other situation would involve someone looking for your hand after you have already gone to the ER.

You have made a really bad assumption that you would be able to jerk your hand back before getting a serious injury. First of all, it is going to take at least 40 milliseconds for nerve impulses to make the round trip to the medulla oblongata and back. By that time, what's left of your hand has already traveled over seven inches through the blade. Now, about jerking your hand back -- first of all, your hand is traveling at 15 feet per second into the blade -- the first part of your reaction requires you to decelerate your hand to zero speed -- about 200 milliseconds -- next, reverse direction -- well, you can't instantaneously get 15 feet per second because that would require infinite acceleration -- suppose it were possible for you to accelerate your hand at 25 ft./sec^2 -- that would still require almost a half-second to get to 15 feet per second back away from the blade -- except that now, your stump is already way past the blade so you would just be jerking it back through the blade.

If all this sounds graphic, I meant for it to be -- safety is critical and I hate to see woodworkers naively believing that their reflex actions are fast enough to save them from amputations -- the truth is that the reaction times that I gave are in reality too optimistic and it will take a couple seconds before you even know that you have sustained an injury.

One final thought is that none of the machines in your shop have a moral conscience and they will dutifully cut meat and bone with the same efficiency that they cut any wood.

If you get the opportunity to see the Saw Stop demo, I would highly recommend it. You do not see anything happen -- it is only after the fact that you realize that the blade was there and then it wasn't and somewhere along the way there was a loud bang.

Bill

[Phil Pritchard]

No, sawstop technology does not stop kickback, but that riving knife sure does.

Disaster is averted all the time with that knife setup.

If your comment is born of gossip or internet speculation, well its just that.
My comment is born of more than 30 years experience of using the table saw and more than a few years of teaching people how to use it safely. A riving knife alone will reduce kickback, but to get a more complete solution it needs to be used in conjunction with a short rip fence when ripping solid timbers. This is how we've been teaching people in Europe for more than 30 years, but then saws here have had riving knives as the norm since the late 1950s/early 1960s, so maybe we have a bit more experience of the potential for kickback. The Biesmeyer fence (or for that matter any through fence) is not ideal for ripping solid timbers as you can still get a trapping-induced kickback where tensions are released, the timber warps as it comes off the front of the blade and is forced into the rising teeth at the rear before it has reached the riving knife. You can sometimes experience the same problems with chipboard which has been "case-hardened" by poor transport/storage

And I do push a lot of timber through a saw - mainly an Altendorf F45 panel saw and mainly sheet material over the past few years.

Phil

[Per Swenson]

Phil,

I see I ruffled your feathers, my apologies.

Alas your blanket statement read "sawstop doesn't stop kickback."
I agree. But in my case the riving knife does. This means it works for me.
You went on to comment about bies style fences.

The fence on the saw stop is a option.
You get to put any fence on the saw you wish.

They have a bies clone available, but it is the purchasers decision.

I own a incra fence.

I also did not word my orginal statement right. As I reread it seems

I am insinuating that you alone are a speculator and gossip.
That was not my intention.

Let me clarify some more, I also have over thirty years of
commercial shop time. With all my digits.
You can get pretty cocky with that much experience.
Though the reptillian part of the brain says this thing can hurt me,
those years can make one slightly overconfident. Just look at our statements. "I've got thirty years and this and that"
Hubris. You can get hurt on day 9000 just as bad as on day one.

No, my comment was written towards the people who are able
to make expert judgement on a tool they do not own, nor ever
used.

Again my apologys.

Per

[John Kain]

It is obvious that the faster your hand strikes the blade, the worse will be the injury. I saw the demonstration about two months ago and the weiner was laying on a board that was being fed through the blade at what I would consider to be about as fast as possible to rip a 3/4" board. The nick on the weiner was so slight that I could not see it without it being pointed out under very bright light. The Saw Stop people will be the first to tell you that you can still get a serious injury, but in any case, it would be better than an amputation.

As an example of what to expect if the hand were slapped at the blade -- a velocity of about 15 feet per second would be consider a very fast slapping motion. The blade moves at a much faster rate of about 50 feet per second. In addition to that, the blade is already stopped before it drops below the table. So as soon as the blade touches the hand, the trigger mechanism is activated in microseconds, there is a lag of a fraction of a millisecond for the brake to engage the blade teeth and drop below the table in less than 5 milliseconds. The result might be a trip to the ER to have a few stitches and hopefully no tendons cut. The other situation would involve someone looking for your hand after you have already gone to the ER.

You have made a really bad assumption that you would be able to jerk your hand back before getting a serious injury. First of all, it is going to take at least 40 milliseconds for nerve impulses to make the round trip to the medulla oblongata and back. By that time, what's left of your hand has already traveled over seven inches through the blade. Now, about jerking your hand back -- first of all, your hand is traveling at 15 feet per second into the blade -- the first part of your reaction requires you to decelerate your hand to zero speed -- about 200 milliseconds -- next, reverse direction -- well, you can't instantaneously get 15 feet per second because that would require infinite acceleration -- suppose it were possible for you to accelerate your hand at 25 ft./sec^2 -- that would still require almost a half-second to get to 15 feet per second back away from the blade -- except that now, your stump is already way past the blade so you would just be jerking it back through the blade.

If all this sounds graphic, I meant for it to be -- safety is critical and I hate to see woodworkers naively believing that their reflex actions are fast enough to save them from amputations -- the truth is that the reaction times that I gave are in reality too optimistic and it will take a couple seconds before you even know that you have sustained an injury.

One final thought is that none of the machines in your shop have a moral conscience and they will dutifully cut meat and bone with the same efficiency that they cut any wood.

If you get the opportunity to see the Saw Stop demo, I would highly recommend it. You do not see anything happen -- it is only after the fact that you realize that the blade was there and then it wasn't and somewhere along the way there was a loud bang.

Bill

Right on Bill. Sawstop most certainly is advantageous for the reasons you specified. As only a slight modification, the reflex jerk reaction would only need to travel an arc to the spinal cord then back to the biceps, deltoids, and lat dorsi to pull the hand back. It's a bit shorter course, but makes a load of difference in time, albeit not enough to prevent a catastrophic injury. Your reaction time based on pain alone is based on fibers running optimally at 25-30 m/sec for sensory (fast pain fibers) and shooting back out to the muscles at 100 m/sec. But the most significant time factor is the time it takes for the muscle to decelerate, stop, and reaccelerate in the opposite direction as you stated. By the time that happens, you are working with a stump. Sawstop works in under 5 millisec. Way faster than a human.

I know 3 surgeons who are all active woodworkers. One already owns a sawstop, 1 is in the process of buying one, and I'm getting one next year. Panel saws are nice, but in the end, I still want an extra insurance policy against injury as even a small one would end my career. I know many of our members remain steadfast on preventing injury by staying extra vigilant around the saw. Yes, obviously, but mistakes also happen when you think you are paying attention. That's why I'm getting a Sawstop.

[Dave Bureau]

I did see the demo this weekend. the blade didnt even break the skin of the hot dog. when i was 15 in shop class i had the task of picking up a finger off the floor from a kid that just zapped it off. it wasnt fun. any safety added to any tool should be welcome. besides it seems to be a well built saw also. i'm new here so i havent seen the threads on this machine. i just bought a delta 36-730 that is still in the box. i wish i could sell it and get the saw stop. any one interested?

[Mark Singer]

Two excelent woodworkers that I know quite well, make their living building cabinets and furniture are missing fingers from tablesaw accidents. They each have their own small shops and are still working even after their accidents. . Both of these guys are experienced and extremely sharp and detailed. I have layed out projects with them and their attention to detail surpassed my own! I am sure if they had it to do over again they would have bought a SawStop! It was not available several years ago when the acidents happened. I do not have nearly the experience of either of these guys at the tablesaw....but I do have a lot as well .....I have owned and used them for over 30 years . I consder myself lucky! Very lucky! Occasionally my son , Ryan will use my tablesaw and it concerns me. I worry having seen accidents for many years , I know what can happen and it can happen to any of us...to myself as well. The kick back issue will still be there , however using the anti kick back rollers and the riving knife , I don't see it as much of an issue. Kick back is also the reason for amputations....as the wood jerks the hands move and if toward the blade...the SawStop will be a savior.
Since it has been out for a while and there are testimonials that it works, I think it really works! They could not say it does if it doesn't. I will be getting a SawStop soon also. I would feel really stupid with hindsight, having an acident and asking myself after, "Why didn't I get a SawStop...it was available." My hands are very important to me! Yes I know a tablesaw very well, but I am not perfect! It can happen!

[Frank Fusco]

Frankly I'm of the opinion their faith in their product is shown by the worth of the object of their test.

How many would buy an airplane flown only by the manufacture using remote control? How many would buy a house that the builder would not enter? How many would pay for a braking system in their car that the manufacture only tests and demonstrates with crash dummies?

Nice looking saw, great concept but if you believe in it shove your hand into the blade and let us see what happens.
Ed

That would be a foolish and unnecessary way to demonstrate the machine. Even though the Saw Stop may be very effective and reliable, it is still a mechanical thing. Anything mechanical can fail on occasion. The hot dog demo seems to be a very good subsitute for risking fingers.

[Phil Pritchard]

Hi Per, no offence taken at all, and none intended, either....

The fence issue is an issue which has got near to causing bloodshed over at FWW Knots and is one that Richard Jones in particular has written on quite extensively from his experience both as furnituremaker and lecturer in a training college.

I wholeheartedly agree with your comment that it doesn't matter how long you've been at this game you can have accidents - in my case I've at various times managed to feed both my thumbs into different overhead routers doing completely different things (so why is it that ring fence work on the spindle moulder scares me more?). In both cases an analysis of the accidents showed that they were avoidable, but in one case my decision to adopt chip-limiter tooling resulted in me having 22 lacerations and 13 stitches but still having a thumb - all that in about 1/30th second contact. Perhaps the point I wanted to make was that whilst the SawStop is an incredible piece of equipment, there are many other simpler and cheaper safety measures that American machinery manufacturers have studiously ignored for many, many years and which should really have been adopted first - principly the riving knife, short rip fence and better quality crown guards. All simple measures, so why has it taken Delta, Powermatic, et al so long to consider adding them?

Regards

Phil

[Travis Porter]

It is what it is, an additional safety device, and I agree with your perspective on it.

It would be nice if they made a retrofit kit (if that is possible) for existing saws. I cannot add a riving knife to my saw, so I added the biesemeyer splitter. I hated the guard on my saw and didn't use it, so I bought an excalibur overarm guard.

How many of us remove the stock guards off the saw because of the hindrance they provide? I have 10 fingers and want to keep them all. I can't say that I will be buying one anytime soon, but I do like the two additional features it has that the PM66 and Uni do not, the riving knife and the blade stop.

[John Gornall]

In the shop where I started using table saws about 40 years ago there were 6 table saws. 5 saws were set up for specific jobs. They had various jigs, fences, and guards built onto them for these specific jobs. They were safe for the job at hand. The guards would not let your hand get anywhere near the blade and the featherboards, rollers, splitters, and specially designed fences pretty well eliminated kickback.

The boss was strong on safety – he had 2 templates of the outlines of his hand that he had removed 2 fingers. He would place these on tables around the shop and spray them with red paint. As you worked these red hands missing fingers were a constant reminder of danger.

Then there was the big saw used for everything else - 10 hp and 14” diameter. I doubt if it had any guards or splitter when it came from the factory.

That’s the tradition of table saws and one reason why the old manufacturers don’t get into safety attachments. There is such a broad range of different cuts that are done on a table saw and each cut needs specific safety attachments that it would be almost impossible to supply a user’s complete safety needs.

Are you ripping 2x4’s, cutting up sheets of plywood, cutting dado in a drawer side, or cross cutting a carcase panel? They all need different setups for max safety.

Read through books on table saws and each chapter will show a setup for a certain cut. There is no single setup or safety attachment that will do it all.

Sometimes the most important safety item is a second person on the outfeed of the saw.

The table saw as bought is just a building block for the job at hand.

A good understanding and suitable setup of the table saw for the cut is the basis for safety.

Sawstop type technology is the last line of defence – and a good one

[Mark Singer]

John,
Very good points about additional safety for each set up..

[Bill Boehme]

John Kain,

Thanks for your clarification on the nerve path -- I suspected that the impulse needed to travel to the spinal cord which still takes a significant amount of time with respect to these circumstances, but I thought that maybe it was the medulla oblongata since it controls the autonomic nervous system.

I would like to add one other thought about kickbacks. It is true that the riving knife serves especially well for controlling kickbacks and the best feature about it is that it does not need to be removed for dado cuts. Its advantage over normal splitters lies in its proximity to the back side of the blade and its width which is essentially the same as the blade's width.

Another factor about kickbacks that gives the Saw Stop a safety advantage comes from the following scenario. Typically preceding a kickback, higher than normal force is being applied to the board that is being fed through the saw. Suddenly, the board takes off in a suborbital trajectory (usually from being lifted by the back side of the blade) and there you are ... with your hand bearing forward and now just pushing against air. Obviously, this will lead to your hand suddenly surging forward and not enough reaction time to stop it before contact is made with the blade. Of course, a prudent woodworker would have been using a push stick or block or something else like a Grrr...ipper (which I really like). But, let's admit it guys ... I bet that there are many times where you have made just one or maybe two cuts and thought to yourself, "it is OK because I will be careful and besides it is only one cut .....". The last cut is the one that always gets you -- just ask anyone who has had an amputation and ask whether he/she continued on cutting.

Bill

[Ed Blough]

Okay after everyone jumped on me I will concede the sawstop reacts faster than normal human reactions though I don't think I said anything to the contrary. :)

But the point I was making that seemed to get lost to everyone but one or two is you can still get hurt. In fact your injury can be very very serious even with the sawstop.

While they use the picture of the hot dog getting nicked is very impressive I'm of the belief if you did something stupid that slamed your hand down on a fully extended blade you would have extensive damage.

It is like when air bags came out. People thought they could play bumper cars and walk away as if nothing happened. It was only after so many suffered major injuries did they realize Air bags might save your life but they won't turn a major accident into a simple thrill ride, your probably gone to end up hurting if from nothing else slamming into the air bag.

That was my only point. I think Saw stop technology is a great accomplishment. And I would like to see every saw manufactured have it. But I don't like the idea of trying to mandate it, nor do I like the idea of inventor patenting it and making it so costly that no manufacture would use it.

[Jim Becker]

I think Saw stop technology is a great accomplishment. And I would like to see every saw manufactured have it. But I don't like the idea of trying to mandate it, nor do I like the idea of inventor patenting it and making it so costly that no manufacture would use it.

Good commentary. SS proves that these machines can be improved significantly to help avoid serious cuts and amputations. There are no guarantees, but I do believe that folks using a saw with this technology are much less at risk for those things. But I also agree that mandating a specific technology is not appropriate...even if the patent holder is willing to put things in the public domain without royalties, that stifles innovation.

[Bill Boehme]

When it comes to implementing new safety features onto tablesaws, my personal opinion on this issue is that industry would prefer to have safety requirements mandated by Government regulations. My argument is based the following beliefs that I have about this:
The market is extremely cost competitive and keenly attuned to price points. The addition of any meaningful safety feature will have a significant material cost along with a significant non-recurring design and development cost. Mandated safety regulations would level the playing field with respect to price.
Making safety improvements in a long existing product can be viewed as an acknowledgement of a safety deficiency in the product, especially if happens to be safety features that have been around and available for a while. This sort of opportunity tends to get lawyers excited. Mandated regulations would be a way around this obstacle.
After saying for years that no additional safety features are necessary, it could present a challenge to the spin doctors to explain why a change is being made in the safety features. Saying that the Government made us do it is always the easy way out of that dilemma.
With stricter Government mandated standards, manufacturers have something that they can point to that provides a measure of protection against safety related lawsuits.There would probably be a lot of kicking and screaming from industry over stricter safety regulations, but in actuality, manufacturers are more afraid of each other than they are of Government regulations.

Bill

[Erik C. Hammarlund]

Okay after everyone jumped on me I will concede the sawstop reacts faster than normal human reactions though I don't think I said anything to the contrary. :)

But the point I was making that seemed to get lost to everyone but one or two is you can still get hurt. In fact your injury can be very very serious even with the sawstop.

The point was lost because the point is meaningless.

If you slam your hand down on a running saw with a SawStop you will probably suffer a deep gash.

Did the SawStop prevent injury, even in this case?

YES.

The injury it prevented is the difference between the above-described deep gash, and what you would have gotten absent the SawStop--in this case, probably an amputated hand.

Your point is analogous to claiming tha seatbelts are overrated because you can still die in an accident even with a seatbelt on. Of course you can--it's just a lot less likely, which is why they're a good thing.

[Rich Person]

Ed,

I would encourage you to read some of the testimonials of Sawstop users who had accidents, but only minor injuries. Reading the testimonials by actual woodworkers having real accidents puts this into perspective.

http://www.sawstop.com/why-sawstop-testimonials.htm

Your other position I would respectfully disagree with is the cost of the machine. My new Sawstop cabinet saw was only marginally more than an equivalent powermatic, and has some very nice extra features too. Any top line TS is going to be expensive. The Sawstop is really not that much more than any of the competition, and certainly less than the European style saws.

[Art Mulder]

While they use the picture of the hot dog getting nicked is very impressive I'm of the belief if you did something stupid that slamed your hand down on a fully extended blade you would have extensive damage.


Ed, I'd forgotten about this, and I don't think anyone else has mentioned it, but if you want to see something a bit closer to the "slamming the hand down" test, you can.

If you go to the woodmagazine.com (http://www.woodmagazine.com/) website, click on "Free Woodworking videos" and then click on "Sawstop (http://www.woodmagazine.com/wood/story.jhtml?storyid=/templatedata/wood/story/data/sawstop2.xml&catref=cat5610002)" you can see a selection of sawstop tests by the Wood magazine people.

Their first video (the "Simulated Kickback") video involve the guy slamming a hotdog down on a spinning 80-tooth blade. Note, this is not sliding it in from the front, but slamming it down quickly from above.

The hotdog suffered a one-quarter-inch deep gash. Still serious, but also still largely intact.

FYI, FWIW.

...art