Insert Tooling

[Doug Sinjem]

What is everybody using for insert tooling on their shaper cutterts? I've seen Stark, Dehart and Garniga. Anybody have any experience with these.

Doug

[John Renzetti]

Hi Doug, I have some groovers that are made by Stark. Also use some profile cutters and heads made by Leitz, Leuco and a rebate head with the Amana name but made by Fleury of Switzerland. Have not used any of the Garniga cutters but have a couple of friends who have and they say it's the best they've used. One guy I know uses the Garniga tooling for making the German style windows and doors. I think he paid about $15k for the set. No experience with DeHart but have looked at their stuff at the IWF. Looked good. All these manufacturers are excellent with the prices to go with them.
For most normal applications any of them will do. It's when you get into specialized cutting with various materials and feed rates do you need the knowledge of somebody that not only sells the tooling but is an expert in the various knife materials, grind etc.
take care,
John

[Doug Sinjem]

Hi Doug, I have some groovers that are made by Stark. Also use some profile cutters and heads made by Leitz, Leuco and a rebate head with the Amana name but made by Fleury of Switzerland. Have not used any of the Garniga cutters but have a couple of friends who have and they say it's the best they've used. One guy I know uses the Garniga tooling for making the German style windows and doors. I think he paid about $15k for the set. No experience with DeHart but have looked at their stuff at the IWF. Looked good. All these manufacturers are excellent with the prices to go with them.
For most normal applications any of them will do. It's when you get into specialized cutting with various materials and feed rates do you need the knowledge of somebody that not only sells the tooling but is an expert in the various knife materials, grind etc.
take care,
John

Thanks John

I'm looking for a heavy duty high production raised panel door set...raised panel cutter with relief in back, rail and style cutter. I spoke with Stark and they do have a nice set up for 3/4 to 1 inch stock. Garniga has a lot of profiles for the rail, style and raised panel. You have to buy another head to machine a relief in the back of the raised panel if you want to do it in one operation.

So you are happy with your Stark cutters? Appreciate the input.

Doug

[Steve Rowe]

Doug,
I am assuming you are looking for carbide insert cutters. I have the Freud RS2000 (rail/style) and Garniga (grooving) tooling and both are very nice units. This past summer, I used a Felder panel raising cutter (not sure who makes it for Felder) at a woodworking school and it was real nice but you will need a 30mm spindle to use it.
Steve

[Doug Sinjem]

Doug,
I am assuming you are looking for carbide insert cutters. I have the Freud RS2000 (rail/style) and Garniga (grooving) tooling and both are very nice units. This past summer, I used a Felder panel raising cutter (not sure who makes it for Felder) at a woodworking school and it was real nice but you will need a 30mm spindle to use it.
Steve

Yes I was under the impression that insert cutters are the way to go. I will check out the freud cutters. The shaper I'm getting has the option of 1 1/4, 30mm and 40mm interchangable spindles.

Doug

[John Renzetti]

Hi Doug, The Starks are high quality. I believe they are made in Italy. Take a look also at the cope and stick sets made by Byrd. What you'll want are two dedicated cutters one for the style and the other for the rail.
What I've found with the European raised panel cutters is that they don't readily come with the back cutter. Some of these heads can be from 180 to 220mm. Also the profiles may not be to your liking. I've used that Felder branded raised panel cutter that Steve mentioned. It's made by Stelhe (who I believe has been bought up by Leuco). It's a heavy cutter.
Most of the cutterheads sold in the USA are available in 1.25" bore. 30mm is European standard size. I think 40mm bore is more standard in France. Some of the big window and door cutting sets such as from Garniga come in 50mm bore.
take care,
John

[Doug Sinjem]

Hi Doug, The Starks are high quality. I believe they are made in Italy. Take a look also at the cope and stick sets made by Byrd. What you'll want are two dedicated cutters one for the style and the other for the rail.
What I've found with the European raised panel cutters is that they don't readily come with the back cutter. Some of these heads can be from 180 to 220mm. Also the profiles may not be to your liking. I've used that Felder branded raised panel cutter that Steve mentioned. It's made by Stelhe (who I believe has been bought up by Leuco). It's a heavy cutter.
Most of the cutterheads sold in the USA are available in 1.25" bore. 30mm is European standard size. I think 40mm bore is more standard in France. Some of the big window and door cutting sets such as from Garniga come in 50mm bore.
take care,
John

Thanks John I checked out the Byrd tooling and it seems nice. I'll prolly go with either the Stark or Byrd. They seem simple to use and high quality.

Doug

[Brian Buckley]

Doug,
I have about 6 Garniga cutter heads in 1 1/4 " They are great heads with great prices to match. Of the 5 different brands of cutter heads I own, the Garniga is my favorite. As John said, the Garniga has European style profiles for their rail and stile sets. Their new North American sales agent told me they were going to come out with American "style" sets this year.
Min Max is Garniga's dealer in North America. Give Sam a call, he can help you out.

Brian

[Jim Becker]

Folks, since there are likely quite a number of people not familiar with insert tooling...I'm sure that the "picture police" will be deep in your debt if you post some pretty pixels of such things... ;)

Jim
SMC Moderator

[Doug Sinjem]

Doug,
I have about 6 Garniga cutter heads in 1 1/4 " They are great heads with great prices to match. Of the 5 different brands of cutter heads I own, the Garniga is my favorite. As John said, the Garniga has European style profiles for their rail and stile sets. Their new North American sales agent told me they were going to come out with American "style" sets this year.
Min Max is Garniga's dealer in North America. Give Sam a call, he can help you out.

Brian

Brian excuse my ignorance but what is the difference between European "styles" and North American "styles"?

I did speak to someone at Garniga briefly they have an office in N.C. and will sell direct.

Doug

[Brian Buckley]

Doug,
My apoligy, I should have used the term pattern or profile.
I am out of town until Wednasday. I will post some PIC's then.

Brian

[Frank Fusco]

Folks, since there are likely quite a number of people not familiar with insert tooling...I'm sure that the "picture police" will be deep in your debt if you post some pretty pixels of such things... ;)

Jim
SMC Moderator

Thanks, Jim. One failing I have notice on SMC is that advanced woodworkers/turners tend to use terms and acronymns that are generally not familiar to everyone. The entire point of a discussion is therefore lost to many. And it fails the main purpose of the TOS, "sharing" of information.

[Charlie Plesums]

Folks, since there are likely quite a number of people not familiar with insert tooling...I'm sure that the "picture police" will be deep in your debt if you post some pretty pixels of such things... ;)

Jim
SMC Moderator
Ok, Jim, here goes...

This is a picture of my Flury insert cutter head with a couple rail and stile cutters for different profiles (actually I have two of each cutter, plus a number of other profiles).

The good news is that the heavy head is very stable (sounds like a jet engine when it spins up), and cuts very smoothly.

Bad news 1 is that the inserts are very expensive - a pair of high speed steel inserts costs about as much as the conventional carbide rail and stile cutter that is in the picture for comparison. When I have seen the price of carbide inserts, I felt the need medical assistance to recover from the shock. I haven't dared start a project using these HSS cutters because, not being carbide, I am not sure they would last for an entire project.

Bad news 2 is that the panel grooves are (as I recall) 4 mm and 5 mm, not 1/4 inch that is traditional in the USA. The 1/4 inch (actually 0.26 inch) space balls don't work. Someone may make cutters for American sizes, but I haven't found them.

Bad news 3 is that the insert heads don't have the anti-kickback safety shape - the rough profile of the cutter that is slightly less than the depth of the cutter, to keep the cutter from taking too big a bite.

Bottom line, I love the idea of insert tooling, but I haven't found the combination that "works" for me. If I am missing a point, please help me understand.

[Steve Rowe]

Folks, since there are likely quite a number of people not familiar with insert tooling...I'm sure that the "picture police" will be deep in your debt if you post some pretty pixels of such things... ;)

Jim
SMC Moderator
OK - here goes my first attempt at uploading pictures.
These are my carbide insert cutters.
48866
The cope and stick is the Freud and has several different profiles that fit in the same head. The cutter head is steel.
48867
The Garniga is the gold cutterhead and is also steel.
48868
The two green ones are Jesada and have aluminum heads.
48869

[Phil Pritchard]

I use Stark, Leitz, Leuco, Oppold, Freud, Garniga and Whitehill (you won''t see this latter in the USA). Leitz, Leuco and Oppold are German and probably the best made of all of them. The Garniga are almost as good and have some innovative features. The Freud is OK, but nothinh special, whilst the Stark is probably the poorest of the bunch with a relatively sloppy fit (on the vari-groover) when compared to the Leitz and Leuco offerings

Phil

[Jim Dailey]

Hi "all",

Since the subject is "insert tooling" .... just to let you know, I was on Summerfeld's site and he is clearing out the CMT 1 1/4" bore shaper heads with 13 molding profiles in a boxed a set for $129.99 plus shipping. From what I can tell from other sites the best price I could find on this was $200 to $210 CMT if I remember correctly offers 100's of profiles for there heads.

Hope this helps, jim

[Jim Dailey]

Opps!!! It's Sommerfelds not Summerfeld... Marc Sommerfeld's site is www.sommerfeldtools.com/closeouts.asp Sorry about that...

jim

[John Renzetti]

Hi Jim, That's a real good price for that set of tooling. One thing to bear in mind is that the insert profiles are made of regular tool steel and not high speed steel. This is not really a problem unless you are cutting a lot of difficult wood or man made materials. From experience I can tell you that these regular tool steel cutters will last about 3 ft in man made materials. For this application you really need carbide.
Having said that I have a lot of these regular steel profiles and they work great, as long as you don't use them for a production run. However they are so inexpensive that it would be worth it to get two sets. They are inexpensive and are a great way to get used to a shaper without spending a fortune on individual tooling. When buying any of these insert profile sets, try to find out whether it is tool steel or HS steel. About all of the sets I've seen of this type only have the tool steel but it is not apparent by the advertising nor the price of the knives.
Most of these sets sold in the USA don't come with the limiter knives. The only company that I know of that sells these sets with the limiter knives is Felder. The limiter knives are another set of knives that sit opposite the cutter knife. They serve two functions. They limit the amount of material that can be taken off in one pass. (You don't have to make two passes but you can hog off a lot of extra in one cut.) And they also limit the amount of any of your appendages that get in the way. The idea is that the limiter will deflect your fingers before the cutter hits them. Limiters are required in Europe for cutterheads that will be hand fed (this includes using a power feeder). Cutters that are used in moulders or other machines that are totally enclosed don't have this requirement.

Phil mentioned Whitehill from the UK. I have one of their profile cutterheads. Very nice. A friend has their raised panel cutter and raves about it. You can get them through Axminster and Scott and Sargent via the internet.

take care,
John

[Jim Dailey]

Hi John,

Thanks for your insights. As you pointed this type of head is a great way to add profiles for low cost ($20 or less), for me this is how I view it. The head is for two cutters althought I am not sure if the CMT inserts are HSS or if they lock at different depths (one to pre-cut).

My current collection of individual carbide cutters totals to over 40, mostly by Delta. Plus 5 different stile & rail profile carbide sets with 3 different carbide panel cutters. I also have the insert head that Grizzly sells & a few profiles. I originally bought the Grizzly head as a cheap way to add picture frame & moulding profiles but have since added a William & Hussey.

Thanks again, jim

[Jim Dailey]

Hi John,

You got me wondering what I had ordered... CMT say the cutter's are M2 steel.

I did a Google on M2 and found the following; "M2 Steel is a fine-grained molybdenum/tungsten high-speed tool steel. M2 is a very tough grade of steel most commonly found in drill bits and end mills. The high amounts of vanadium, molybdenum and tungsten make it very resistant to wear and very difficult to grind. At a Rockwell hardness of 62HRC it exhibits extreme toughness, with no signs of brittleness, and edge retention that is superior to most other blade materials. The down side to this material, other than it is difficult to work with, is that since it has only a small amount of chrome it will rust unless properly maintained."

Thanks again for your information,
jim

[Phil Pritchard]

The limiter knives are another set of knives that sit opposite the cutter knife. They serve two functions. They limit the amount of material that can be taken off in one pass. (You don't have to make two passes but you can hog off a lot of extra in one cut.) And they also limit the amount of any of your appendages that get in the way. The idea is that the limiter will deflect your fingers before the cutter hits them. Limiters are required in Europe for cutterheads that will be hand fed (this includes using a power feeder).
John

In reality you have to feed very fast indeed to over run the limiters. I've never managed to overfeed except when panel raising with my Whitehill panel raiser. Incidentally, to get a feel for what they do take a look here (http://www.whitehill-tools.com/) - that's Whitehill's old web site (if it's still working, that is). The current range is much much larger now and all the stuff I've had to date has been well up to the standards of Leitz, etc. probably because the use the self-same multi-axis Swiss grinding and milling machines as their much larger German rivals. Their traditional window tooling, however, uses HSS cutters which means you can grind your own - and it is a lot cheaper than the German systems, as well.

Apart from the limiters reducing the liklihood of amputation if you are daft enough to put your fingers into a spinning cutter block chip limiters restrict the depth that the cutter can bite into the timber so ‘kick backs’ are less severe. I also find that they require less finish sanding. But the other big plus of the modern CE-type blocks is that all of them hold the cutters in using wedge locks and pins so the cutters go into a body in the same place every time and cutter/tip ejection is nigh on impossible with the current designs

Phil

[John Renzetti]

Hi John,

You got me wondering what I had ordered... CMT say the cutter's are M2 steel.

I did a Google on M2 and found the following; "M2 Steel is a fine-grained molybdenum/tungsten high-speed tool steel. M2 is a very tough grade of steel most commonly found in drill bits and end mills. The high amounts of vanadium, molybdenum and tungsten make it very resistant to wear and very difficult to grind. At a Rockwell hardness of 62HRC it exhibits extreme toughness, with no signs of brittleness, and edge retention that is superior to most other blade materials. The down side to this material, other than it is difficult to work with, is that since it has only a small amount of chrome it will rust unless properly maintained."

Thanks again for your information,
jim

Hi Jim, Great minds must think alike. :) I did the same thing and saw that the CMT uses M2 HSS. Also did a couple of searches for M2 and found that Wisconsin Knife works also has several M2 grades of knife stock. This makes the CMT set you bought all the better. That is a great deal. In looking for regular tool steel I found different designations W1, etc for use in knives, cutters etc.
take care,
John