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Bob Yeager
10-19-2006, 11:18 PM
Greetings: This is my first posting here. I have been doing a lot of reading about lasers and the great information posted here.

I have been doing my research on lasers and have narrowed my choices to two brands. Before I take the plung, what would be the members suggestion for my first unit...now that y'all have experience operating and conducting business in the real world.

My background was in graphic design (for printing) now full-time woodworker. I have a little computer experience but will have to learn a lot in that area while learning the laser equipment. I plan on doing most of my laser work in engraving and cutting wood...later add other materials.

Thanks in advance for your suggestions.

Bob

Mitchell Andrus
10-20-2006, 8:48 AM
Buy a unit that's got a bigger bed and is more powerful than you think you'll need. I've spent more money than I'd like to think about undoing cheap choices. Buying something 'for now' always led to spending more money, not less.

Starting out??? Remember, it's business first, operating a laser second. Target a market, find a need and determine if you can fill it. Then, spend money.

Most of the laserheads here have lasers that allow them to add a service to an existing business. Those who have laser intensive businesses such as trophy/awards shops, charge about $1.00/minute for laser time, and really make thier money on the lasered products, not operator time. The exceptions are the production shops, but there are few of those and they operate at a bigger scale than most of us here.

Good luck, and welcome to laserdom. It's 'kick in the pants' fun.

Mitch

Carlos Chiossone
10-20-2006, 10:24 AM
My background was in graphic design (for printing) now full-time woodworker. Bob

Hi Bob, similar story here. I am a photographer whom ended most of his career as a creative director. Now while still doing those, I do a lot of woodwork in jewelry and small toys.

As said here, get the highest power you can afford. If you think 15W is enough for you, then get 20W. I narrowed down to Epilog and Universal (ULS). I am incredibly glad I bought the ULS one. There are many things to consider before buying and after buying. And some of the things I wish I knew before I bought this wonderfull monster.

This machine will need a place to live, it will need an AIR EXTRACTOR which can be noisy, it creates "white noise" so it usually is not bothersome outside of the room where it is in, but imagine the noise inside of an air conditioner. Also this is additional from your laser, usually about $350 with hoses. Easy to install through a window. You may also need a compressor depending on what you cut to give it AIR ASSIST, noisy again. From $200 - ????.

If you are going to be cutting mostly wood you will get a lot of wood oils or resins, not sure which when you cut. Its sticky and burnt smelly. So you will want good ventilation. You will also want the honeycomb table attachement to make it easier on you to clean and extract little flames (when any) I use a grill bought at home depot because could not afford the honeycomb. I wish I could afford it now.

One thing my dealer made for me was excellent. Instead of buying a m-360 with a 30W laser, he offered me a M-300 (older) with a 45W laser. I had no need for the more modern table, but had the need for the power. So think well your configuration.

Intallation will be needed if you are not too computer literate. And good programs are needed too. While this industry relies on Corel Draw, I use Adobe Illustrator and others similar to it.

After your purchase you will start going crazy where to buy thin wood, what power and speed will you use to cut X wood at X thickness. What the hell is PPI and why it is important... and many other such questions. Ask away here, if not for this forum, I would still be burning paper edges. :)

I still have a lot to learn but with this machine is fun to learn.

While I hear that support from both companies is great, I can tell you that from ULS it is excellent.

Also as said here, don't buy the machine to get into the new business, buy it to support your existing business, unless you really thought it out. Its an expensive machine, which you will need to maintain well so it works well for you. I use it to help me build my pieces. Now in NYC I also use it to provide the service of laser cutting. So I did start a new business with it, but it primarily works to maintain my other business working faster.

Good luck and please email me if you have questions. This forum is excellent to get many answers and everyone I have gotten in contact with has been amazing help.

Mike Null
10-20-2006, 10:33 AM
I agree with most of what Mitch said except that the $1 per minute does not pay for all your costs. I try to get $2 per minute though in reality I price by the job or item. A small 1x3 name tag might take 30 seconds but I get $3-4 for it. Materials may cost a quarter. (on the other hand, I'm bidding on a job right now that'll be about .80 per minute but it's 7000 pieces totaling about $9000.) If I get it it'll take about 3 weeks to run.

When you're buying look at speed vs power. A fast machine that's under-powered won't give you the benefit of the speed that you think you're getting. There are machines that run at 40 inches per second and some that run at 140 ips. If you buy a 25 watt machine that runs at 140 ips there will be no jobs you can run at full speed. Conversely, if you buy a 40 ips machine with 75 watts of power there'll be few times when you can use full power.

If you're not looking at an American made machine don't expect to get parts overnight.

Joe Pelonio
10-20-2006, 11:35 AM
I'll add to what the others have said, before deciding, not only do you want to see a live demo by the sales people, but ask to visit a shop that uses that machine in your area, if possible. See how they have it set up, what they do with it, and talk about any problems or limitations they have found. When you think you have arrived at a decision post here, hopefully you'll find out that others have the same machine and will offer help.

With me the $1/minute basic charge is just that, often I charge less for wholesale or production jobs, but also do charge more frequently. I recently did a job that used 3 12x24 sheets of Rowmark laminate that would have based on time and materials come out to about $120. Because the "tags" were so small, required 3M laminating film on the back before cutting, and needed some "fixing" of the provided pdf files, I ended up charging just over $200. Had to do one .5"x1" over again, it fell off and has a new home in the bottom of my laser.

Mike Mackenzie
10-20-2006, 11:56 AM
Bob,

Please feel free to pm or call me if you have any questions regarding the ULS systems.

Richard Rumancik
10-21-2006, 5:44 PM
Before buying, I would seriously consider going to one of the trade shows where you can see some machines in action. Maybe even take your own files and some material if you feel inclined, and see what the machines will do. Then you can make notes and take some samples home with you.

Here is another challenge you can give to the vendors. Engrave and cut a badge (or similar object) in the far left corner of the table and repeat the test in the bottom right corner. Make sure you are satisfied with the quality in the bottom right corner. Otherwise, table size is academic if you don't have good results all over.

Bob Yeager
10-22-2006, 8:36 PM
Thanks to all who have taken the time to respond...especially those that sent private emails. All your info has been taken to heart for consideration and has been very helpful to me in my decision.

Friday 10/27 I'm going to the woodworking show in San Mateo, CA...a couple of laser folks are going to be there with demos.

Bob Yeager

Dave Simms
10-23-2006, 10:21 AM
I am in the process of buying a Laser for a new business after getting downsized from my CorelDraw / Presentation job at a local NJ Hospital. I have been doing months of research on this, including getting all the back-issues of the very informative A&E Magazine.

Nothing, however, matches what I have learned from this Saw Mill Creek network and its great users. The other day I was reading a thread of posts from Harry Radaza and Lee Daraud regarding lenses and the rate at which they should be cleaned, and how it might relate to exhaust air flow - priceless stuff.

I haven't read every post - I don't think that is possible - but my purchasing plans are definitely being swayed by posts from Mike Hood (Pinnacle ZX), Mitchell Andrus (Spirit 60), Brent Drod (Epilog vs ULS), Kim Vellone (Epilog) and others. I don't want to say how I am leaning because this board seems to be read by the Sales Reps from the Laser Companies that I have been chatting with; whenever I quote a point from a particular post, the respective rep will usually respond with "yes, I read that and......" so, I will temporarily keep my thoughts to myself and preserve any bargaining chips that I might hold.

I apologize to Saw Mill Creek for not researching who the creators of this wonderful board are - I have just been too busy reading the stuff that I so desperately need - but if the creators of this board do read my post please know how grateful I am to you and how I truly live by this board these days. (When I do have a moment of off-time I enjoy browsing the "free stuff contests" as well as your "classifieds")

I might be headed to the Charlotte, NC show this week.

One question that I haven't found answered on this board is regarding the two programs Photograv & EngravePro. From my own research, Photograv is about a decade old with limited function, and I don't understand what EngravePro is or does. A Sales Rep included both programs in his proposal for an expensive $395 each. I would appreciate any feedback. Thanks!

Rodne Gold
10-23-2006, 1:59 PM
Play real dumb with salesppl , ask stupid questions etc , see how they handle you and how they answer. If the salesperson bulldusts once , give it a miss. Get everything in writing when it comes to promised add ons and sweteners.
I don't believe in "too much power is just enough" for a laser , get what you need , I would rather have 2x 30w machines than 1 x 75 w if I didnt espressly need the power. Power is really only very important if you plan to do a lot of cutting.
All the lasers out there do more or less the same as any other in their price class , warantees and support and how near the support person is to you should be paramount for a first purchase. I would never buy a machine with a 1 yr warrantee on parts and tube if you plan to use it more than occasionally.
Photograve makes it a snap to laser some clipart and pictures - useful if you are doing a lot of that and worth ther money on time saved. You can do it yourself , but jump thru hoops.
Dunno engravepro , but we make do excellently with Corel - have done so for 7-8 yrs of lasering and are in pretty much a production environment , it's the std program just about everyone uses. I have engravelab , signlab and profile lab and albeit they have one or 2 features that can perhaps help with lasering on the odd occasion , arent worth the money for a laser.(but are for Cnc Routing , engraving etc)
The most important thing before buying any laser is to do PROPER market research in respect of your target client base , competition , cash flow predictions etc. Unless you the only player in town you gonna come up against better equipped and more experienced folk. The first Q to ask yourself is what am I going to offer over others so they will come flocking?
If you dont have a really good answer for that , you stand a good chance of buying a white elephant.
Other than that , hone your marketing skills big time , as just cos you have a laser means nothing , you have to sell , sell ,sell and its real hard, it takes time to see results and you got to have a thick skin. Doing no marketing is folly , its like winking at a woman in the dark , only you know what you are doing.

Dave Fifield
10-23-2006, 3:13 PM
Bob,

I'll be at the show in San Mateo next weekend too - mostly wandering around looking/buying, but I will be manning the Northern California Marquetry Society's booth on Saturday afternoon - if you'd like to stop by, we can have a chat about lasers :)

Cheers,
Dave F.

Bob Yeager
10-23-2006, 3:44 PM
Hi Dave --- I will be at the show on Friday...I'm sure I'll catch up with you in the future. I read on an earlier posting of yours about marquetry work...this interests me also.

Bob

Dave Fifield
10-23-2006, 5:10 PM
Bob - I'll be there Friday too - probably hang around the Marq booth later in the day. Drop by and say hi!

Cheers,
:Dave F.

Bob Yeager
10-24-2006, 10:38 AM
Hi Dave --- I'll look for you...I would really like to meet and get to know you.

Bob

Mark Mullis
10-26-2006, 10:17 PM
Hello Dave Simms
What Charlotte NC show are you referring to? I live close by and might like to go. Thanks

Mike Hood
10-28-2006, 11:17 AM
I've had my 40W Pinnacle ZX for a few months now. It's worked wonderfully and has some really cool features that I like:

- FAST (80ips DC servo motors... no slow noisey steppers)
- Large bed (38x20 working area) and YES I use it (balsa and acrylic 36" sheets)
- Pass-through doors (front & back). I use these to cut lightening holes in 48" RC plane wing spars.
- Air assist included (makes a big difference)
- Rotary fixture (done tons of wine glasses... good fun & nice gifts)
- "center" and "relative" home positioning. Just move the head to the position you want to start from... and hit start.

I imagine other machines have many of these features, but I specifically caught a couple of salesmen working harder to discredit the "other guy" than to explain the virtues of their own. That's a deal-breaker for me.

I got a VERY good price and package from Signwarehouse. This was my second major purchase from them and I'm sure it won't be the last. I spent just over $22K for my package and it's worked flawlessly.

Kim Vellore
11-06-2006, 4:03 PM
Bob,
Did you get your laser? If you did could you post which one you got and also the reason for it and which was the runner up? I am thinking of replacing my laser and I have just started researching again to see which will best fit my needs and you input will count.

Thanks
Kim