panel raising

[Alex Yeilding]

I am taking my fist crack at panel raising by near-neander methods, and have a couple of questions.

First of all, the doors I am making will be painted, so learning from my mistakes will not be unduly painful! Working in poplar. And by "near-neander", I am referring to defining the field--I used the table saw to cut a 3/32" deep kerf at the edge of the field.

In planing the ends of the panel, I found that my best results came from a plane with a very wide mouth, set to take fairly heavy shavings (.009"). Switching to a smoother with fine mouth and set for thin shaving just roughened the surface. Is that to be expected, or am I doing something wrong?

How do you get a good surface on the end bevels? For the painted piece, I could always pull out the ROS, but I want to learn how to get a good finish so on a future piece I can do it right with confidence. A card scraper is all I can think to do, but I'm having a hard time getting good results. Suggestions?

One thing I definitely have taught myself in this exercise--I do NOT want a knot in the area I will be planing away to make the bevel! :(

[Mike Wenzloff]

Hi Alex,

Yeah, Poplar and most softwood's end-grain doesn't need or often like a narrow mouth. Mainly it is the way the shaving is formed and broken at the plane's blade. Think of end-grain like a bunch of straws, held from almost loosely together to very tightly as one moves from softer woods to very hard woods.

Instead of "lifting" and "flowing" up the iron fairly unimpeded in the case of planing long-grain, they bunch and try to bend before severing when planing end-grain.

The best way to get a good result is a very sharp iron in a plane which is a low-angle skewed-angle plane. You can mimic this by skewing a plane in the cut, but it still isn't as good and if there is tongue on the edge, well one cannot.

Panel raising planes take care of all this plane geometry for you, but as I do smaller work for the most part [display cases, wine and liquer cabinets] I use a larger moving fillister plane which has a skewed iron.

Take care, Mike

[Dave Anderson NH]

Alex, I would make sure that you plane the bevel on the two endgrain ends of each panel first to prevent tearout. There is no reason not to use a scraper if that is what it takes to get the result you need. I have made rasied panels using poplar and it is a difficult wood to plane on the endgrain because even though it's technically a hardwood, it is relatively soft. Your plane iron needs to be very sharp.

[Mark Berenbrok]

FWW #173 had an article with a couple of methods you could use to make raised panels. They used a Stanley #78 for the Neander method. PM me if you need a copy.

[Alex Yeilding]

Thanks, Mark. Are you referring to "Three ways to raise a panel" by Matthew Teague? (I don't have the issue number on the electronic copy.) If so, I have a copy. If not, I'd appreciate a copy of the one you were referring to. I'll PM you.

[Alex Yeilding]

Yes, I'm planing the ends first. And the plane irons are sharp. but maybe my scraper needs a new burr--not much luck with it.

[Alex Yeilding]

Thanks, Mike. I hadn't thought of using my moving fillister. might sharpen it up and give it a try. I don't have other skew planes, and don't have any rabbet plane, much less a panel raising plane. Trying to make the bevel 2 3/4" wide, and am using regular bench planes (4, 4-1/2 and 5) to "sneak up on" a flat bevel, with a shoulder plane to get rigth up next to the field.

BTW, a question on terms here. I think of "field" as the flat center part of the raised panel. Is that correctr? and is there a name for the vertical drop from that plane to the top of the bevel?

[Derek Cohen]

Yes, I'm planing the ends first. And the plane irons are sharp. but maybe my scraper needs a new burr--not much luck with it.

Alex

I assume that you are focussing on the cross-grain smoothing needed.

I have never worked with poplar but I assume that it responds in the same way expected for softwoods, that is, softwoods and scrapers do not go together. Basically, softwoods respond better to low cutting angles where the wood fibres are sheared more in line with the wood surface. A scraper will produce a high cutting angle and tear at the fibres since these tend to then bend. The answer is to use a plane with a low cutting angle. A skewed plane automatically lowers the cutting angle. Skewing a plane is not practical when you have a field defined by a wall. The only alternative for you is a low angle block plane (12 degree bed and 25 degree bevel) and a low angle shoulder plane (same configuration).

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Ken Bryant]

On the end grain a low-angle (LN or LV low-angle jack) would probably work better than those bench planes.

[Jake Darvall]

Its going to be hard going without a skewed bed on soft timber. Some soft timbers even with a skewed bed don't always perform if the grain direction plays havock.

skewed bed means buying a skewed plane, and learning how to sharpen it. That may take some time if your not used to it.

289's another option. Be better than the 78 for cross grain on softwood. Fear the 78's going to leave a mess.

If you haven't got a skewed plane, you can just use your bench plane on the skew of course planing to a couple of lines to get the angle consistant.....and then to form the tongue just rebate the edge with a 78 (leaving a little tear, but most of that should be hidden)

Goodluck.

[Mark Stutz]

Alex,
I'm joining this thread a little late, but would echo a lot of what has been said. When I made the raised panel doors for my tool cabinet (in mahogany), I made a practice run/mockup in poplar. I never could get the end grain on the poplar as clean as I would have liked, even using a sharp 140, for all the reasons mentioned. It was very difficult to tell the difference between the long grain and end grain on the mahogany, however. Even though you will be painting it, I might consider using maple, as the end grain results will likely be more to your liking.
Whatever you decide, I'll predict that your skills and confidence in using planes will increase!:D

Mark

[Travis Johnson]

I read the last 10 posts just waiting for someone to mention my favorite plane...the #140. This was just what the plane was made for in my humble opinion. I will resist the tempatation to tought the virtues of the #140 as that really deserves its on thread, but since you don't have one, you have the perfect excuse to buy one now!

[Derek Cohen]

Travis

The only reason that I did not earlier mention the #140 was that Alexmade it clear that he did not own one and was looking for a way to work with what he had. Hence I suggested a low angle plane, hoping that he had a LA block plane to go with his shoulder plane.

But the #140 is a good plane for cross grain planing. I have a Stanley with a LN blade that has had lots of tuning.

Article on tuning a Stanley #140 at http://www.wkfinetools.com/tRestore/plane/Stanley140/index.asp

I have used it for raising panels, but more for smoothing the end result since it is a small plane. One of these days I will cnstruct the panel raising planesthat are on my tuit list.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Travis Johnson]

Thanks for the post Derek. I too have a Stanley #140 with an LN replacement blade. I have slowly been rebuilding it, hoping to get a nice microbevel on it so that the standard angle the orginal has can be somewhat converted into a better performing low angle plane.

While I was at it, I added at nicker, side fence and polished brass side plate. then added a purpleheart auxiliary fence, replaced the knob and added a brass cap. While I was at it, I replaced the steel screws and machine bolts to brass, sand blasted and powder coat painted it. Yeah its one pimped out plane, but it should really perform well.

The thing is I basically destroyed a collectable plane. I still have quite a bit more to do on this plane though. Its a few thousandths of an inch out of square. A Bridgeport will take care of that though.

Here are some before and after pictures:

http://www.railroadmachinist.com/sitebuilder/images/Pre_Rebuild-464x423.jpg

http://www.railroadmachinist.com/sitebuilder/images/Paint_and_Cap-465x432.jpg

[Derek Cohen]

Good griief Travis!

All that #140 needs is a broad white fedora and a pink caddilac !! :)

Pimped out, indeed.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jake Darvall]

Alex, are you going to tongue the panel ?

I think its ideal if you do, else the panel will flop about a bit.

[Alex Yeilding]

Thanks, Derek. Not sure why I didn't think to use my low angle block plane. But I pulled out my Sandusky #69 moving fillister plane, and it taught me very quickly the value of both a skewed blade and a purpose-built plane. Tempting to limit myself to bevels of a width that I can use the fence, nicker, and depth stop of this plalne to full advantage!

Re your point on scrapers--that makes me feel better<g>. I had modest success skewing the scraper at 45 degrees while scraping in the same direction I was planing.

[Alex Yeilding]

Whatever you decide, I'll predict that your skills and confidence in using planes will increase!:D
Mark

Yeah, and at the end of the day, that's waht this exercise was about. If I have to pull out the ROS to get it to look good enough under a coat of paint, so be it--_I_ know it is still more hand-made, even if not better, than if I had used the table saw or router!

One thing I am very peased with is my increased confidence with my scrub plane. You really can get those long-grain bevels pretty close to final quicly taht way.

[Alex Yeilding]

Alex, are you going to tongue the panel ?

I think its ideal if you do, else the panel will flop about a bit. For my "first time out", I am not. Plan to pin or use a spot of glue at the center of the endgrain edges, in hopes that that will keep any expansion symmetrical between the sides, and avoid "flopping about" movement.

[Alex Yeilding]

Thanks to all for the suggestions and the encouragement and "permission" to blame my choice of wood rather than get discouraged with the results!<g>

I have the panels now cut to within a few fine shavings of where I want them. Am thinking of modifying the wood with a wash coat of shellac. I have found that helpful when trying to plane endgrain of pine. Any thoughts?

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Alex

Yolu could try dampening the wood first. Just water.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Mike Narges]

Travis,

I have an originally tough looking 140 that I am rebuilding also. Pleas advise how you rigged the fence. I really like the picture you provided, and that was an inspiration to me on the rebuild. I turned a new knob, and even used some gold spray enamel on the knuckle cap. There is likely a white fedora lurking around my shop also. The LN replacement blade arrives later today per UPS tracking. I would be interested in the method of fence attacment and how you did the nicker. Mine will never be a LN but maybe a Lying Nelson!!

Sincerely,

Mike Narges