My walk in tool box

[Robert Trotter]

Hi folks, I have made a few posts now and have had some great help. Thanks. And now I would like to impose upon you all again:eek:

I am able to build a small (did I say small...you know SMALL:p ) shed in our new garden. Looking through the forum and at some of the pics of people's workshops have been interesting and made me a bit reluctant to divulge the size of my new workshop. A lot of you seem to have monster shops. Some of the shops out there are the size of a small house here in Japan, if not bigger. Any as they say, it is not the size of your shop, its what you do with that counts. Or something like that.:rolleyes:

Oh, Did I mension that I live in Japan.:D I nice place to live but space is rather limited unless you live way out in the sticks, have a LOT of money or you have your own dungeon (Stu - you lucky guy;) )

However I have decided to bite the bullet and ask for your valuable input... Until now I have used a little portable workbench where ever I have been able to. On the balcony, in the hall, the kitchen, or recently on the new terrace... But now that small yearning voice deep down is starting to screem louder and louder. I want to go further in my woodworking and need a good bench and place to store my extisting tools and the new tools I plan to buy. (Thanks for everyone's help there.)

So here is a picture of my "walk in tool box"...
48572

Sorry but it is all in metric if you can read it. (having trouble with the quality- had to scan a plot of my drawing and then save as JPEG)

The toolbox / shed is roughly 9'6" long by 4' wide/deep.
The "work area" as shown is about 82" x 42" interior space and the "garden stuff" area is about 18" x 42" interior space. This might be able to be changed a couple of inches but I am limited by the space I have. And I need swing room for the doors between the shed and a wall at the end of the terrace (infront of the shed). A site plan can be posted later if needed.

My initail plan was to divide my shed into a my "walk-in-toolbox" for my hobby and sanity and have a small closet for storing the garden tools and stuff. This is as shown.

But after looking through the creek here and looking into bench designs etc. I am thinking again about my layout. And now , before it is built, is the time to rethink things.:)

And this is where I would like your collective wisdom...

[Robert Trotter]

Some background I suppose:-

I want to go neandre.

This is out of neccesity as I am sure you can all understand. Although I am thinking of getting a drill press sometime in the future for accurate holes. But this is down the line for now. I have a new Makita electron burning sliding mitre saw with laser line for the construction of the shed and of some wooden planter boxes which will be LOT of cuts. And this will be stored in the 'toolbox'.

I will have to dimension wood by hand and will cut mortice and tennons etc. by hand so I need a sturdy bench.
I will be working on mainly small to medium sized projects but I will make some beds for the kids in the future and some desks for the kids also. So these will be bigger pieces but I figure if I need extra space I can work outside the 'toolbox' for these and the odd larger piece.

I am looking at chairs, end tables or hall tables etc and boxes and drawers and plant stands etc. Whatever I can...

I was thinking of having a collapsible assembly bench if I need it. And putting it just infront of the shed when working.

I will have to store some timber in the 'toolbox' also. I was thinking of storing rough timber vertically at the left hand end of the 'toolbox'. And where ever else I can. Needs to be thought out a bit.

I want to put a workbench with a pretty solid top. I am thinking 3" or 4" of Ipe or Seran Ganbatu but the materials are undecided yet.

The shed:-
2x4 frame with ply sheet over for wind bracing. Typhoon area. And then 110mm wide T&G hardwood vertical siding over that.

[Robert Trotter]

And now some questions:-

As I said earlier I am having a rethink about the layout. Originally I thought of the two areas with the work area ('toolbox') have a big bench area and possible standing in the doorway area when working.

But After looking around and reading a lot about benches and looking at other peoples benches that they had posted pics of I am wondering if I should scrap the two area design and make it just one space with just the two front doors. I would have to store the garden tools at one end or around the walls. But getting access to them is the problem.

What got me thinking about making it into a single room shed was my searches into bench designs and this got me to thinking about planing longer pieces of wood. I might need the extra length in the shed. Also what size bench should I go for and what layout?

Question 1. - Should I keep the two compartments or change it into a single room shed?


Benches:-

I like the idea of a shoulder vice as it would allow me to clamp assembled draws and furniture pieces in the vice. But then I haven't used one and from looking at pictures it may be better for a walk around bench which mine won't be, unless it is very small. I also like the idea a large Veritas twin screw vice mounted to the front of the bench basically taking up nearly a third to half of the bench. This is because with my little workmate (I think you call them) I often clamped everything between the jaws and didn't use dogs because of the stabilty problem. But I am wondering if the front vice handles might get in the way while planing and dimesioning stock by hand. with my new bench I will have dogs and will use these for when dimensioning timber and general working. Which brought me to looking at the roubo style bench with basically a big clamping surface and a leg vice and a wagon vice or a Veritas twin scew vice at the end. I could use the leg vice for clamping when doing dovetails or cutting tennons. (is this right?) With the leg vice I could also put 900mm (4') sheet stock in the vice and clamp it for edge planing etc when I do some cabinetry. (This would have come in handy for the kitchen cabinets in the old place.) But I am not sure I will be doing a lot of cabinet building accept for the kids' desks)


Question 2 - Should I have a wide bench taking up most of the width of the shed and work in the door way?
This would mean the two room layout I suppose.

Or should I have a narrower bench which would allow me to work inside the shed and place longer timber pieces for planing and being able to walk down along the bench while planing?
This I suppose would mean less assembly space and bench space.


Question 3 - What vices and layout or bench style would be suitable?
Take into account I have used a workmate until now and don't know what is a good layout for me. So comments from people with similar tight space restrictions would be very helpful. The good the bad and the ugly.


I think I will stop here and wait for some of your wisdom...

[Stu Ablett in Tokyo Japan]

Hi Ya Robert!:D

I guess the rest of the guys are still counting ZZZZZZzzzzzzss :rolleyes: :)

Well you know what they say, more shop space is, well more shop space!
Can't you find a spot under some stairs or somewhere else to store those garden things?

A question or two for you.

Is this at an apartment or a house? (or did I miss that part?)

You know the aircon units we have over here, well the outside unit, if it is sitting on the ground, make an excellent spot to build a little compartment over them for the gardening stuff, just an idea for the gardening stuff.

For long boards etc, you can also put a window, or hatch in one end of the the shed, and stick the board out there part way, to let you get long boards in, and to work on them (are you thinking bed rails?).

I'm not much of a neander, and I have some shop space now, but I did a lot of woodworking here on the veranda of our old house, so I hear you about the space and the working outside thing.

What I'd like to see is a pic or two of the intended space this shed would go, along with it's relative location to the rest of the yard etc (if this is at a house). I'm wondering if you could have a workspace between the shed and the the house, and make a temp awning style roof and walls to keep you somewhat dry, or to keep projects out of the weather while finish drys (and the stink out of the house!!) You and I both know the weather here, it can be sunny and warm, and 30 minutes later, raining like crazy, then sunshine again.

Just some thoughts.

I'd think that a narrower bench, that could be pulled out of the wall would be better, but I'm no Neander :o

Could you also post a bigger pic of your plan, I cannot read any of the fine print.

BTW, if you need to borrow a framing nailer and portable compressor, I have both.

Cheers!

[Robert Trotter]

Hi Stu,

OK...Yes it is a house. Moved last year from an apartment.

Here is a picture of the elevation again to see if it is any better. File sizes are a killer until I can work out all this picture stuff.

48574

And here is a site plan

48573

The garden stuff I mean is for rakes and spades and longer things etc. And the small electric rotary mower (which is stored inside at the moment but it has to go out. getting too cluttered inside. I need a sheltered spot. I have some gardening benches/cabinets with cupborad space already outside for shorter stuff and fertilizers etc. So I suppse the rakes and stuff could be hung on the walls between the studs and the mower just put in the corner.


For long boards etc, you can also put a window, or hatch in one end of the the shed, and stick the board out there part way, to let you get long boards in, and to work on them (are you thinking bed rails?).

I thought of the hatch. But undecided. and wondering how it would work actually.
And yes I was thinking of bed rails which would need to be planed so I want somthing pretty stable.


I'm wondering if you could have a workspace between the shed and the the house, and make a temp awning style roof and walls to keep you somewhat dry, or to keep projects out of the weather while finish drys (and the stink out of the house!!)

Yes I was thinking of opening the doors up and locking in position and then putting a cover across them and the end of the terrace for a covered area for this.

Robert

[Robert Trotter]

Here are a couple of pictures of the area.
48575
This is the area. You can see that it is narrow between the fence and the wall.
48576
This looking straight on to where the shed would be. It would take up most of the area just beyond the terrace wall.

[Rick Thom]

Robert, a few ideas for you to consider.
What you are proposing looks to me like a conventional potting shed. If you need a roof and a way to suppport it, what about 1 solid bearing/supporting wall or posts and let it support the roof (like a catilever) and have the remaining 3 'walls' like curtains that can be retracted individually overhead into the roof area. Think panelled garage doors or roll-up curtains. The panels could be translucent plastic, glass, wooden slats... or whatever material is appropriate in your part of the world. For that matter, one or any of the panels could be partially retacted, with the remainder forming an 'overhang' or temporary roof. This could be temporarily enclosed with a material curtain wall ie tarp-like hung from the outer extremidies.
To me the idea is to remove as many limitations as to size of footprint and how it can be used.
It does present other challenges such as lack of wall space, but those are solveable ie mobile free-standing cabinets.
My .02 yen

[Stu Ablett in Tokyo Japan]

That is a good idea Rick, the translucent panels would also give you nice natural light during the day time too!

OK Robert, I'm first going to throw you a curve ball.......... :D

48577

Why not do your shed like this? I know it is more work, and I know it is more materials etc, but you would really be able to get a lot more into the shed.

You would still have access to the side of the house behind the shed for getting at the AC for example but you would also just about double your space.

If you make it on those concrete pads like they use for a sun deck, and it is not attached to anything like the house, it would be considered "Temporary" and not subject to any code, here in Japan (Well in Shinjuku, where I live). You would run an extension cord for power.

Heck you might just want to build the whole thing on some recovered railway ties, they can be had at home-centers for landscaping, then it would REALLY be temporary :D

Ok back to your design.

By the looks of it, you already have a covered area to work on the large stuff, you stone patio (looks like an awning above it..?) for you planing of long boards, why not make a knock down planing stand? or what do they call them, a planing beam? Sloped a bit, has two legs, two trestle type of feet and a long beam between the two that acts as you bench for the wood to be worked on.......?

Anyway........

Back again on track (sorry, I'm a bit all over the place, I'm writing a bit, dealing with a customer, writing a bit .....etc.)

One thing is the roof, that waffle stuff, what do they call it, corrugated roofing? you can get it in a smoked tint, with a fiberglass like weave in it, it is very tough, and will last at least 10 years (my old shed had it, and was 6 year old without any trouble at all). The natural light is nice, unless you are in direct sunlight, then it can be a bit much.

I'd think about a window, or at least an exhaust fan, the cheap ones with the vanes at the outside which open and close when you turn it on/off are good, in the summer, this will get the hot air out in a hurry, and when you are working with finish, is will help with fresh air.

I'd build a little tall skinny locker type of box for your rakes etc, and put it somewhere else, keep that stuff out of your workshop :D

You know that you can get the siding just like they used on your house at the DIY centers, I used it on my Lesson Room Reno (http://www.ablett.jp/workshop/workshop5.htm) and it is slick, it even has some (minor) insulation on it.....

http://www.ablett.jp/workshop/summer_renovation/front_finished1.jpg


I guess for the walls that go towards the neighbours house, you' have to put your finish on the wall then stand it up?

I think you plan is sound, and your ideas are good, and you will get it done.

Last thought for this post, BIGGER IS BETTER!! :D

Cheers!
Looks good and works well.

[Ted Jay]

Here are a couple of pictures of the area.
48575
This is the area. You can see that it is narrow between the fence and the wall.
48576
This looking straight on to where the shed would be. It would take up most of the area just beyond the terrace wall.
How about making the back of the shed wall against the terrace wall to avoid the zigzagging into the back yard with materials and such.
You could also convert some of that garden space for the shed and move those plants and things behind the terrace wall to hide the shed from the street.

[Dave Fifield]

Some of us are still up on the left coast, although I really should be studying the underside of my eyelids right now....

It seems workshop space and layout is a common theme today....I just posted the layout of my 'shop and asked for help rearranging it too!

I'll study your problem later today (and the inevitable replies) and see if I have any flashes of inspiration for you Robert.

Later, ZZZzzzzz,
:Dave F.

[Frank Pellow]

First of all Robert, you shouldn't appologize for sing metric. In that regard, you are in a very strong majority. It's only most folks in the USA, many in Canada, and many in the United Kingdom who are measuring in the dark ages. :D

I like both Rick's suggestion for removable walls (that was my first thought too), and Stu's for a larger shed.

Thanks for the site diagram. You really don't have much room the work with, do you. :(

[Robert Trotter]

Thanks for the replies everyone.

Stu, bigger is better but not really possible. Usually in Japan you are allowed about 10 square meters footprint before you require a permit. However in Ahsiya where I live the limit is 5 square meters. And just to relieve the "get a permit, then" pressure...if I build at a size where I need a permit then I will have to allow for minimum distances to boundaries regulations which would basically mean I couldn't build the shed as there isn't that much space.

I'll try to find out more about a planing beam...anyone?:D

Hi, Ted...I can't change the garden as it is not long finished and it cost a LOT:eek: of money. If I told you the price you would probably have a heart attack so I will take care of your health for you and not tell you.:D

I'll think about relocating next to the wall but it is probably out as the shed has to fit in with the garden architecture/design.

I'm sure Stu could tell you how important it is here in the concrete jungles and mass of humanity, to have a little bit of heaven to relax and unwind in. And that is what we have made with our garden. Not big by most of your standards, but for Japan it is quiet nice.

So Rick...thanks for your ideas but maintaining the garden architecture would preclude putting up screens and the like.

Also in case it helps, I live on the coast near the sea so I want to be able to lock up and shut out the sea air as much as I can for my tools sake. I was thinking of making a tool box for my planes and chisels to take inside the house and put in my little office for those times when I will have a longish break from working wood. But for the rest of time I need to seal it up.:)

I was going to use ply sheeting on the roof to help brace the shed, especially over the largish door space. But I could think a bit more about putting a window or something to allow for cross ventilation and light.

I just thought about it... I could make the shed bit larger if I could put sliding doors or bifold doors but I can't think of a way to do it while still keeping the nice looks of the shed or how to make the bifold doors so they would hold up to the weight of the hardwood siding and keep them weather proof at the hinge joints.

Suggestions anyone?

So there ya go...
Waiting for thoughts and more wisdom. :)
Keep em coming as all thoughts and ideas spark others.

[Dan Mages]

My only thought is to put a crescent moon on the garden supply door and a small vent pipe coming out the top. Granted, the Japanese may not understand the joke, but isnt that half the fun?

[Robert Tarr]

Robert,

A couple thoughts come to mind (and that is scarey...;-) The basis of most of the thoughts are that you would only be working partially inside of the space and that it is primarily for tool storage (thus, primarily working either out the door or outdoors entirely.) If you look at the hand tool side, you will see Jr. Strasil's demo trailer and bench, which, if my guess is right, is about the same amount of space you will have.

One is to work like the Japanese, with a planing beam and mortising benches etc. I often used a stump in my old shop for chopping mortises, even though I have a nice 3" thick maple benchtop. The nice part about that thought, is everything is easily moved etc. and you can even attach the planing beam to the door, so that your workspace is outside.

The other that comes to mind is a cleat system for attaching your Western styled bench to the inside of the door of your shed, thus storing it vertically when not in use (you can decide on detachable legs if you like (I would, either do detachable or folding if a single door, or fixed base, if double doors.) This limits the length of your bench to the height of your door (shouldn't be a problem.) One variation of that theme is a Murphey Bed styled bench. Folds down when you need it and up and out of the way, when you don't. Managing around your bench when it is NOT in use, is the biggest task, in my mind. The more I work around benches the more I enjoy the Roubo styled bench with the modifications that you mentioned above (Like Chris Schwartz's bench), like the leg vise and wagon vise (an addtion to my bench soon) and make certain that you have decent holdfasts (come to think of it, maybe you could use the holdfasts to secure the bench to the door, for storage...) It may require a more expensive set of hinges (ball bearing) for the door, but a possible solution.

I will go back to drinking coffee now...

Robert

P.S. Have you thought about using a thicker shed door and just having it be your bench? Pull two hinge pins and your door is now your bench. The face side of your bench would be the inside of the door....just a thought.

[Alan DuBoff]

Robert,

Don't feel bad, I lived in a walk-in apartment not much bigger than you're planning for your tool box! I did it for 5 years!:confused: I attribute that to my youth at the time!:D

Ok, it was a bit bigger, 9 tatamis, but I have an office bigger than that now (I think it's bigger).

You might consider a workbench that folds down on the wall if you're really limited on space, so you could close/open shop when needed. That might work on an outside wall.

[Robert Trotter]

Thanks for the comments people.

The ideas of folding benches and using other things like doors, planinf beams, mortice blocks etc. for benches are good ideas and I might include few of them. I will look into mounting the bench to the rear wall and hinging it, so it can be folding up against the wall if I really do need some extra storage room for a while...This would mean I can't really put anything largish on the wall as it would interfer with the bench folding up.:confused:
Also if the bench is not connected to the wall I could pull it away a little to allow for storing something behind the bench like lumber it sheet goods.

What I would like, is a bench set up and ready to go so I can get to working wood rather than spend time setting up the work area all the time. As this is what I do now.:D

I think I am leaning toward a single space in the shed...

So I have two basic options to decide on before going onto the detail of the shed construction etc.
A narrower bench or a wide bench.

Wide bench
- A wide bench would mean the two room:rolleyes: layout since I wouldn't be able to get into the end of the shed. :confused:
- or I suppose if it was like a square bench covering half the interior, it would allow access to two sides (inside and the doorway side), Would it be benificial to have two side acces to the bench?
- maybe one fixed like the square bench above and another hinged to the wall for the other half of the shed. If I needed the extra bench space I could fold that half down.:confused:

Ideas....:confused:

Narrow bench
- I could put a longer narrow bench in. Probably about 500mm (about 20" or 24") wide.
This would allow me to do dimensinoing of stock by hand and planing longer pieces where I need a good solid bench.
And I could walk and work within the 'toolbox'. Also allowing me good access to either end of the 'toolbox' to put the little lawn mower and spayer (forgot that one :D) in a narrow corner locker inside.
But this would limit bench space for assemble of larger pieces. But I could go to the knock down assembly tables route and thise kinds of ideas already put forward by others for assembly and finishing.

Door Location
For a single space, where would the best location of the door be?
- in the middle
- at one end
-left hand end or right hand end?
-size is dictated by the swing space.

Vice location
Where would the best location be for vices for neandre working?
Would a face vice interfere with planing and dimensioning by hand?
Any neanders out there?

General
I don't need space for a table saw or planers etc. Just hand tools only.

[Stu Ablett in Tokyo Japan]

You know, you might want to build the shed and then decide on the bench, as once you are "in" it you will have a much better feel for it.

About your code thing with the size of the shed. If it is on skids, and has no permanent power hook up, I think you are outside of the code thing, make sure there is a hook on the side of it, so it can be moved around, make the runners under the shed curved up on the ends, and you are good to go, I think :rolleyes:

I've seen this done around here lots of times, to avoid the code problem, the shed is only a temp building (for 20 years) it can be moved at any time, so it is not a code violation.

Just a thought.

Cheers!

[Robert Trotter]

Hi Stu,


You know, you might want to build the shed and then decide on the bench, as once you are "in" it you will have a much better feel for it.


Yeah I know what you are saying about the waiting , that is my genral plan...but I need a general idea so I know where to put my doors and if I did put a window for ventilation and for the occasion longer piece to go through then I need to know where to put it.

So If I can get a general idea of the size and type and maybe how to use it (ie. where to put vices etc. and working on it) I can locate the doors and decide on door sizes etc. and get it built and then think about the actual bench and working of it.

I will edit my previous post a bit as I had to stop and do some work:) Check it out.

Robert

[Greg Koch]

Robert,

Not to hijack your post, but where in Japan are you living?

Greg

[Robert Trotter]

Hi Greg,
I live in Ashiya city in Hyogo.
Near Osaka

Robert

[Greg Koch]

Sent you a PM...to stay on topic.

When you decide on the design, where will you get the material to build it? NichioDaiku? Have you priced out the materal...how much will it cost (initial budget or design)?

Greg

[Robert Trotter]

Greg, got your PM.
What is Nichio Daiku, a timber supplier?

I can get the 2x4 from the professionals version of Konan a home centre or I may ask the siding supplier to supply everything if the price is OK. the senran ganbatsu siding is a bit expensive but cheaper than Ipe. But If I just wanted a shed and didn't worry about the looks there are cheaper ( a lot cheaper) options out there as Stu suggeted. But I want it to fit in with the garden.

Do you know any good timber suppliers etc?

Robert

[Stu Ablett in Tokyo Japan]

Greg, got your PM.
What is Nichio Daiku, a timber supplier?

I can get the 2x4 from the professionals version of Konan a home centre or I may ask the siding supplier to supply everything if the price is OK. the senran ganbatsu siding is a bit expensive but cheaper than Ipe. But If I just wanted a shed and didn't worry about the looks there are cheaper ( a lot cheaper) options out there as Stu suggeted. But I want it to fit in with the garden.

Do you know any good timber suppliers etc?

Robert

Robert Nichiyo Daiku is Nichiyoubi Daikusan, or a "Sunday Carpenter" what we would call a Hobbyist.

About suppliers.......... (sigh.....)

If you ask around and you find a guy that wants to play ball, first pick your jaw up off the ground, then pinch yourself to make sure you are not dreaming :rolleyes:

Around here, they don't want to sell to me, as I'm not a "pro", they sell to the "Pros" and then the "Pros" add 20% to 30% mark up on the price they buy the materials for (I don't have a problem with that, as there is always waste etc), but around here, they will not sell to the "Hobbyist".

I go to Joyful Honda (http://www.ablett.jp/workshop/joyful.htm) but the place you mention, Konan, I've been there too. You might notice that the prices they charge are about 65% of the book price, or you are getting the materials at the same cost as a "Pro".

Take a good list with you, diagrams, and even some printed out pics.

At the Konan I went to, they had two service desks, one for the plebs, one for the "Pros". I went in and asked a pile of questions about something (don't remember what I was doing at the time) and the plebs desk had the deer in the headlights look, and had to call over the Pro service counter guy.

After that, I just go to the Pro service counter.....

Get on the web and look for some timber guys.

Here is one guy I know of........

http://eucla.fc2web.com/

and I think he speaks English fairly well, at least in e-mails.

I'll look for some of my other contacts, and PM you.

Cheers!

[Robert Trotter]

Hi Stu,

I checked out the site you posted. It seems to be mainly dealing with smaller pieces. Is that right or do I have to look more carefully?

I was thinking of the site
http://www.i-m-k.co.jp/

They are in Tokyo actually and they have a 100yen section in the actual store which I cannot see so not so great for me but maybe it would be good for you as you do some turning and could go and hand pick pieces you wanted.

I am not sure if the price on this site are reasonable or not but they are what I can get. Shipping to Kansai is not so expensive. Only as few hundred yen for pile of teak I had priced to make a chair.
What do you think. Are their prices reasonable or hsould I look around more? Anymore links from you?

Robert

[Robert Trotter]

Could someone help me with how to construct the doors for my shed?

I am not an experience exterior door maker...

See the pictures at the beginning the thread for the general appearance.

I want double doors.
With hardwood (110x15mm) T&G siding over the outside.
I don't want face hinges. I would like to minimalise them (not too obvious) so I was thinking butt style hinges.
I want the doors to be as weather proof as possible.Each door should be about 1900mm to 2000mm high and from 770mm to 990mm wide. (dependng on my final dimensions)
Ummm ... and to save people reaching for the calculator, that is about 78" high and from 30" to 39" wide

With butt hinges I can't use a normal plank and batten door construction as there wouldn't be enough to fix them to.

The doors will be very heavy so I am concerned about racking.

Your help and advive would be greatly appreciated.

I have three options that I have thought about:-


1. Make a braced frame like shown and just put the T&G planks over it.
But I am worried about weather resistance and about racking.

48714

2. Make a braced frame and then fix ply sheet over one or both sides and then fix the T&G siding over the exterior.
This should be more stable and weather resistant BUT heavier.

48713

3. Make the door basically like a wall panel. Studs and noggings (horizontals) and ply sheet it both sides to make a torsion type of box. Then fix the T&G siding over the exterior.
This should be easier but maybe heavier. Will this be stable?

48715


So people... What is the best way to make a shed door. It doesn't have to challenge my woodworking skills and be a work of art. I mainly want the exterior to look like the wall of the shed when closed and be stable. Exterior appearance no.1 and interior appearance is secondary.

ALSO with the doors I need hinges ...and the hinge dimension will determine the door thinkness I suppose. Any ideas about hinges?
If I could I would like nice looking heavy duty butt style hinges that are lift-off. With lift-offs I can fit the hinge halves to the door and frame and with the help of an small army lift the doors on or off. Any ideas on sources etc would be welcomed.

Thanks

Robert

[Ed Blough]

Robert
I would go with one space a wall like a hall is a something that uses space.

As for your bench, let me relate my experience. I built a really nice bench that is far too heavy to move often. I placed it against the wall and that is where it stays. My bench is about 32 inches wide so if I want to do glues up the clamps usually hit the wall making the project overhang the bench. If I turn them the other direction I have to lean across the bench to tighten them and I have all these rod sticking out at me. I have an end vise that is limited because of the wall at one end and a face vise that I use but rarely. I too have a workmate that I often use but I built a fold up work table that is becomming my mainstay in shop.

In the house before this one I had a shop in basement. I built narrow benches around the perimeter to sit/mount things like grinders and such and slightly larger one for hold tools as I was working. I then had a 4 x4 work table that I worked off of. I liked that set up far better than the having fixed bench.

One thing I would consider would be extending the roof of your shed more over the doors. It wouldn't effect the yard plan but would allow you to work under shade and with rain protection.
In fact I would think of extending the roof as much as possible and even providing a way to afix side curtains for rain protection. In effect you could double you covered workspace without enlarging the actual footprint of the structure.

[Robert Trotter]

Thanks Ed for sharing your experiences.

32" wide will probably be wider than what I am thinking now. After some thought I am thinking about 500mm (20") wide/deep and around about 1500mm (up to 5'). Yet to decide as it is very important for me to decide as once I locate the doors I am restricted to what I can do. But I am thinking of different things before I decide.

I had a read about Japanese planing beams and stuff in a friend's "The woorkbench book". Very interesting. Got me thinking a bit.

I can see about your clamping problem with a narrow bench set against a wall. I have been thinking about that one, too.

My Current thinking (probably could change or mutate in the future - with help from people here) is to have a pretty solid bench so I can dimension wood and for jointing and general planing. Stabilty. So I thought the 20" deep bench would be OK for that. I'd have room for planing and some room to plane some tools and bts and pieces. (I expect I will go like Pam N. and put things away as I finish with them. everthing should be pretty convenient in my little space.So I don't need a tool tray.

For clamping up I thought I would have a colapsible table that I would set up infront of the shed when I needed it. And for smaller things I could put them inside. So my work bench is for working the wood only. As far as I am looking at it at the moment.

One thing I thougt of in the car on the way to work today was to have the narrow 500mm bench but have it a bit shorter so that I could fit another slightly lighter one next to it to make a long narrow bench. But when I need the extra wide bench for a project I thought I could drag the lighter bench around to the front of the main one to make a work area the full width/depth of the shed. I would work from the doorway or from inside on the right hand end.

What do you think?



I have an end vise that is limited because of the wall at one end and a face vise that I use but rarely.

Is the end vice problem because the wall is at the other end and limits your length of stock?

That is one problem I am trying to solve. I am thining to have enough follow through room at the left hand end for planing. (I am still think of kind of a roubo style bench??????) And at the right hand end I should have another 20" for a screw for a wagon vice. If I need to plane any longer stock than I can fit in here (this should be rare) I will look at setting up a Japanese style plane bench outside.

The face vice - why don't you use the face vice?
I suppose it is just an image inmy head of a bench with a face vice as my workmate is used for clamping everything between the jaws (you know what I mean). I don't use dogs with it.


One thing I would consider would be extending the roof of your shed more over the doors. It wouldn't effect the yard plan but would allow you to work under shade and with rain protection.

I don't really want to extend the room of the shed out too far as it will detract from the appearance of the garden...So...

What I am thinking of at the moment is to set up some eye hooks on the shed and set some pipe into the ground near the wall infront of the shed. Then I can just slide a couple of poles into the pipes , then hook up a tarp to the shed and the poles basically making a tent like structure if I need the shade or protection. That way I get the protection if I need it and when I don't we can still enjoy the garden and relax.

What do you think? Workable?


Thanks again for sharing your experiences. I think seeing people in action like Deks photos while naking his table and hearing peoples experiences (good and bad points) about their benches is very helpful.

Robert

[Ed Blough]

Thanks Ed for sharing your experiences.

32" wide will probably be wider than what I am thinking now. After some thought I am thinking about 500mm (20") wide/deep and around about 1500mm (up to 5'). Yet to decide as it is very important for me to decide as once I locate the doors I am restricted to what I can do. But I am thinking of different things before I decide.

I had a read about Japanese planing beams and stuff in a friend's "The woorkbench book". Very interesting. Got me thinking a bit.

I can see about your clamping problem with a narrow bench set against a wall. I have been thinking about that one, too.

My Current thinking (probably could change or mutate in the future - with help from people here) is to have a pretty solid bench so I can dimension wood and for jointing and general planing. Stabilty. So I thought the 20" deep bench would be OK for that. I'd have room for planing and some room to plane some tools and bts and pieces. (I expect I will go like Pam N. and put things away as I finish with them. everthing should be pretty convenient in my little space.So I don't need a tool tray.

For clamping up I thought I would have a colapsible table that I would set up infront of the shed when I needed it. And for smaller things I could put them inside. So my work bench is for working the wood only. As far as I am looking at it at the moment.

One thing I thougt of in the car on the way to work today was to have the narrow 500mm bench but have it a bit shorter so that I could fit another slightly lighter one next to it to make a long narrow bench. But when I need the extra wide bench for a project I thought I could drag the lighter bench around to the front of the main one to make a work area the full width/depth of the shed. I would work from the doorway or from inside on the right hand end.

What do you think?




Is the end vice problem because the wall is at the other end and limits your length of stock?

That is one problem I am trying to solve. I am thining to have enough follow through room at the left hand end for planing. (I am still think of kind of a roubo style bench??????) And at the right hand end I should have another 20" for a screw for a wagon vice. If I need to plane any longer stock than I can fit in here (this should be rare) I will look at setting up a Japanese style plane bench outside.

The face vice - why don't you use the face vice?
I suppose it is just an image inmy head of a bench with a face vice as my workmate is used for clamping everything between the jaws (you know what I mean). I don't use dogs with it.



I don't really want to extend the room of the shed out too far as it will detract from the appearance of the garden...So...

What I am thinking of at the moment is to set up some eye hooks on the shed and set some pipe into the ground near the wall infront of the shed. Then I can just slide a couple of poles into the pipes , then hook up a tarp to the shed and the poles basically making a tent like structure if I need the shade or protection. That way I get the protection if I need it and when I don't we can still enjoy the garden and relax.

What do you think? Workable?


Thanks again for sharing your experiences. I think seeing people in action like Deks photos while naking his table and hearing peoples experiences (good and bad points) about their benches is very helpful.

Robert

Robert the idea of having two benches that can be brought together may be workable.

The reason I don't fully utilize my end vise is anything longer than 32 inches hits the wall the bench is against. Also since the bench is against the wall there is not a lot of room to stand and work from the end. The vise is on the right end of the bench facing the bench. I just find standing there working anything feels confining.

I don't use the front vise because it wasn't set up for use with dogs and placing something in it blocks access to the rest of the bench if the object has any height. The work bench would be great as is if I could get all around it but having access only on three sides makes it hard to real usable. Like I said I found I actually perferred working on workmate or collapsable work table.

If I was doing it again I would mount my bench on wheels so that I could pull it out from the wall to use it. As it is now I built cabinets under it and making any modification would be a major project.

I think your idea using poles to form a sort of a tent is very workable. I would work at refinning that idea as I think it presents you with the most workable space.

Experiment and try different things. I think you can make a great work space for yourself.

[Alan DuBoff]

Robert the idea of having two benches that can be brought together may be workable.That's not a bad idea, I agree, but I use a bench now that is about 30" wide, against a wall, but do most of my glue-ups on a fold up table in the center of the garage.

I'm building a hand tool bench, that will be used for hand tool work only. I don't want to do glue-ups on it, and will continue doing my glue-ups in the garage.

Yes, like your bench it will be too heavy to move, and once it's put in place, I don't plan to move it. If I do, I would move the top and base seperately and break it down.

However, I do want a bench that isn't easy to move, I want one that won't budge when I pound the day lights out of it while working on wood.;)

Seems you've pointed out a lot of shortcomings with your bench Ed, and also pointed out that if you were to do it again you would consider some differences. You might consider trying to modify your bench so that it would work better, it might not be as big of a project as you thought, and there might be a way to add wheels by jacking the bench up and adding them underneath. Food for thought. Chris Schwarz had an article on his blog about adding a wagon vise to his Roubo bench. Always good to look things over and see what might be improved. Unfortuantely most of us are only human, and as such we make mistakes. At least I know that I do. As an example, I renovated a bench in my garage (http://www.softorchestra.com/woodworking/tools/bench_renovation/), and while not ideal, it works much better the way it is now. I didn't build the bench originally, the previous owner of my house did and pounded enough nails in it to sink the titanic. Even so, they were coming loose, so I added screws which hold it much better, and a couple 4x4 posts on the corners. I built a cap that fit over the top of the greasy, and stained benchtop. I just did the best I could with what was there, and how much time I was willing to invest in it. At some point it will be worth ripping the entire bench out and starting from scratch, but that was more than I wanted to invest in it (timewise) at this time, since I am building another hand tool bench out of hard maple, hickory, and walnut.

There's a lady named Sarah Susanka who wrote the "not so big" series of home books. The most famous is "The Not So Big House", which encourage one to incorporates dual purpose space, building more quality into less. She uses the Japanese as an example of doing such, in how they live within their homes. The basic concept is to build a home which has 30% less space than you would, but spend the same amount of money (i.e., build better quality space).

Robert's walk in tool box is a perfect example of doing similar. Having an area that opens up to use for working wood, and have things mobile and able to move out and form a decent work space in his yard is a concept that I feel if terrific. That's why I thought a workbench that folded down might not be a bad idea.

Gambate Robert-sama!

[Robert Trotter]

Thanks Ed and Alan for the comments.

Ed your explanations of how you use your bench or find it difficult to use have been great and thought provoking.

Alan I check out your new bench top. Nice work. The pictures of the work in the vice very good and just the type of thing that is helpful. I can see how your bench is against the wall and how you are working with it and how much space I need to think about so mine is useable and I don't feel so uncomfortable useing part of it like Ed and his vice.

About the fold-down bench idea.

- I think I am leaning to toward a permanent main bench just for hand tools and the woodworking part. I want something solid. But it will be limited in size (depth). If I went to a fold down bench like from the interior back wall of the shed, knowing myself and my wife, if the bench was folded up the space would get filled up and every time I wanted to do something I would basically have to do a spring cleaning. Also as space is limited I want to build some tool drawers or shelves under the bench. And some shallow shelves or cabinets on the walls. Probably multi-function in that I would use the outside of the doors as well as the shallow interior space for tools and screws and glues etc. Haven't thought about that too much yet but probably have marking stuff on the exterior of the door for quick access and chisels and saws inside. As I said, undecide yet. Got to get the shed built first.:eek:

Back to a fold down bench... It is still a good idea Alan but maybe I would use it for the secondary working surface or to widen the main bench for assembly or whatever when needed... I don't know...Something on the LHS wall that folds down like an ironing board to increase the work surface but then I couldn't have a front vice. So all this need to be thought out.

It could possible be on the right hand side, making up the right hand side of the two half bench discussed. So if it was like that I suppose it could be down but coudl be folded up out of the way if I need better acces to the right end of the left hand half from inside the shed. (Is that confusing or what?:p )


Maybe a pull-out top like on an extendable table and fix some legs or support when extended. But I don't know how the mechanism works. Have to study that one. Probably a bit weak.:confused:

But the ideas from everyone are great and a getting me to think of differnt alternatives that are better than my original image in my head.

Any further ideas or comments?

Robert

[Alan DuBoff]

Alan I check out your new bench top. Nice work. The pictures of the work in the vice very good and just the type of thing that is helpful. I can see how your bench is against the wall and how you are working with it and how much space I need to think about so mine is useable and I don't feel so uncomfortable useing part of it like Ed and his vice.It's ok, but I kept the apron removable so I could replace the bench at some point.

I had mounted the vise on the right side, as there was electrical and a refrigerator next to the bench.


About the fold-down bench idea.

- I think I am leaning to toward a permanent main bench just for hand tools and the woodworking part. I want something solid. But it will be limited in size (depth).I agree and want mine solid also, but in your case I think it's worth considering. Possibly not for the workbench area, but possibly for assembly. As I noted, I don't care to use my workbench for glue-ups. Although I have butcher paper I can put on top of it, I'm a sloppy gluer.:rolleyes:

If I went to a fold down bench like from the interior back wall of the shed, knowing myself and my wife, if the bench was folded up the space would get filled up and every time I wanted to do something I would basically have to do a spring cleaning.Yeah, I can't offer too many ideas on that. But if it makes you feel any better, I suffer the same delima.:(

Also as space is limited I want to build some tool drawers or shelves under the bench. And some shallow shelves or cabinets on the walls.You might consider a roll-away cart that has drawers for tools and can function as an assembly table, or even workbench. Popular Woodworking had an issue on workbenches about a year or so back, and it had an interesting bench/cabinet combo set that had 2 sections with drawers. They both had adjustable tops and a large top fit over them. That could be broken down and stored easily in a shed like you plan. It also doubled by being a stand for other benchtop power tools. Not sure how many of those you use, I'm continually amazed at you folks doing woodworking in Japan. You have quite a bit of area for Japan.

Back to a fold down bench... It is still a good idea Alan but maybe I would use it for the secondary working surface or to widen the main bench for assembly or whatever when needed...Yes, exactly as I mentioned above also. The idea was to create dual purpose space. Same as builtin cabinets to some extent, depends how they're designed. The way the Japanese fold up their futons and put them in the closet is an example that Sarah Suzanka uses as an example in her book.

It could possible be on the right hand side, making up the right hand side of the two half bench discussed. So if it was like that I suppose it could be down but coudl be folded up out of the way if I need better acces to the right end of the left hand half from inside the shed. (Is that confusing or what?:p )I understand what you're saying and I found a link to the backissue of the mag with those bench articles, here on the Popular Woodworking website (http://www.popularwoodworking.com/store/backissue.asp?issuedate=5/1/2005). Check out teh German Work Box, and the Height-Adjustable Modular Bench. Hard to see them well, but you might be able to get the idea. Ah, the German Work Box is one of the free plans they offer, sign up on their website and you can get that. That might be good to make a couple of those, get lots of storage and could pull them out to open up outside.

[Robert Trotter]

Thanks Alan for the response and info.

It good to know I am not the only collector of "things" that get in the way.:)


I had mounted the vise on the right side, as there was electrical and a refrigerator next to the bench.

For your new hand tool bench, are you haveing a front vice. Where are you thinking of mounting it?

I have been thinking of mounting a 24" twin screw vice as a face vise which would take uo about half the bench or one bench of a two bench system. BUT I would be able to out large sheet stoch against the bench for edge jointing. Still think of that or a leg vice.

What thickness top were you thinking of?


The way the Japanese fold up their futons and put them in the closet is an example that Sarah Suzanka uses as an example in her book.
Yeah we did that for 13 years. It basically gives you an extra room in the home. IN our case, somewher to wrestle with the kids after they wer born. And in the first place we had, it was also our living room. So I suppose I am used to making do with whatever space I have. Actual in our old apartment, my wood storage area was the maintenance cupboards in the hall. made little hanging shelves and all. Worked pretty well.



Check out teh German Work Box, and the Height-Adjustable Modular Bench.

I check ed it and it is a bit hard to se well but I get the general idea. Could be a way to go for extra storage etc.



It also doubled by being a stand for other benchtop power tools. Not sure how many of those you use
Well the only bench top power tools could be a grinder and drill press (do have this yet). But I could do what I am doing now and store the grinder in cupbaord and just wip it out when I need to use it.

For the future drill press I am thinking of mounting it or on a base on wheels on the bech in the corner and just slide it accross to whatever position I need to work on whatever stock size/length. But I suppose I could mount it on a rolling cabinet.


Robert

[Robert Trotter]

Hi folks,
I would appreciate some ideas by experienced people about the door construction. See the diagram a couple of posts up.:)

And with the door location. Left hand side, right hand side or in the midle?

What do your experiences with vice and vice location tell you? And let me in on the secret ,too if you don't mind.:)


Thanks
Robert

[Alan DuBoff]

It good to know I am not the only collector of "things" that get in the way.:) I'm certain there's others like us!;)

For your new hand tool bench, are you haveing a front vice. Where are you thinking of mounting it?Yes, a patterm maker's clone, the type sold at Woodcraft, Highland Hardware, and others.

I have been thinking of mounting a 24" twin screw vice as a face vise which would take uo about half the bench or one bench of a two bench system. BUT I would be able to out large sheet stoch against the bench for edge jointing. Still think of that or a leg vice.I'm using a 24" twin-screw for the end vise. I was almost leaning towards a second 24" twin screw, but wanted a pattern makers clone as they are so useful. twin-screw is very good for joinery though.

What thickness top were you thinking of?Was thinking of 3", but I rip'd all the boards for 2 3/4" to make them fit with a bunch of maple strips I got that only worked out well at 2 3/4", I didn't want to waste more than I had to and several could get 2 boards if I rip'd them at 2 3/4".

The legs are 4 1/2" x 4 1/2", 2 stretches at 3" and about 4-5" (can't remember) on the front/back, and side stretches about 6" I believe (they're short).

I check ed it and it is a bit hard to se well but I get the general idea. Could be a way to go for extra storage etc.I sent a note to Chris Schwarz to ask if it was ok to scan and send it to you, or thought he might actually say, "we'll post that".;)

They also have a CD available that has all the projects on it over the past, I believe, but not certain if all the mags are in it. The bench mag was a special edition, as I recall.

I'll let you know what he says, he out of town though, and I got a auto-response from his email.

For the future drill press I am thinking of mounting it or on a base on wheels on the bech in the corner and just slide it accross to whatever position I need to work on whatever stock size/length. But I suppose I could mount it on a rolling cabinet.Might depend on wether it's a bench top or floor standing. I imagine you folks have more benchtop drill presses on the used market. I want all vintage machines in my shop, and have started to replace anything new. You can see some of them on my page at owwm.com (http://www.owwm.com/Members/Detail.asp?id=3052). I just got my 3 phase going in my garage recentely and hearing the table saw spin up to life was very exciting! Think about a 1600 lb. table saw in Japan.:eek:

One thing I haven't received yet is the tredle lathe/scroll_saw (http://www.owwm.com/PhotoIndex/detail.asp?id=4982), but it's going to be here soon. It's going in my shed, which will function as my hand tool shop and office (http://www.softorchestra.com/woodworking/office/desk.jpg). It's been my office for about a year already. The new bench is going in there, along with the tredle lathe/scross_saw.

Might be going to Japan in the spring for my work, and if I can get down to Osaka I'll definitely look you up.

Ja matta, ne!

[Robert Trotter]

Hi Alan,

if you're in the area look us up.:)


Anyone...
I would still appreciate some feedback about the door construction. See the pics above.

Should I start a new post just for the doors?

Robert

[Alan DuBoff]

Robert,

My $0.02 on the door. I like the way the stiles are in No 1 and No 2.

I don't think you need ply over the frame, the siding should do, and it should be strong enough with the frame by itself. Certainly it can't hurt to overbuild it, so using ply would work also. I just don't see the extra expense in using plywood. I'm not crazy about plywood anyway...but that's me. :o

In light of that, I would pick No 1. All of our milage varies.;)

[Robert Trotter]

Hi,

ply is not too expensive. About $10 a sheet.

If I make a frame like in no.1 or no.2 I think I put on my sketch 30mm which is about 1 3/16".

Is this too thin to attach heavy duty hinges to? What would the thickness need to be?

What material should it be? Hardwood or 2x4 type of material?

If hardwood, could I use a thicker style for the hinge side and the rest of the frame 30mm? (This is trying to reduce the weight)

Robert

[Alan DuBoff]

What material should it be? Hardwood or 2x4 type of material?I would think 2x4 would work, I get douglas fir locally and that is 1 3/4" thick. Any type of hardwood is better most certainly, but probably wouldn't be needed, and cost more. doug fir is hardwood though, but I don't know what you have in Japan.

If hardwood, could I use a thicker style for the hinge side and the rest of the frame 30mm? (This is trying to reduce the weight)I think you meant "thinner". I wouldn't go too thin on it, and gates for home yards use 2x4 construction in the U.S. and they hold up.

I would lap the diagonal on the rails if it was me, I'm not sure by your drawing how you planned to connect those together and/or if you were going to screw them into the bottom of the rail, for instance.

Lots of ways to do it, most all will work fine. I don't know how to calculate the load vs. the stock, maybe someone else can advise you on that. I would just use 2x4 and put some nicer siding or t&g on the top, that will be what folks see. In general I would say use the best hardwood you can afford if at all possible. But another consideration is the rest of the shed, and making sure the doors will not be too heavy for the other struct. If you're using 2x4 for the rest of it, I would use 2x4 for the door frame. My $0.02 again...(at this rate, I'm going to go broke...I've given out a lot of $0.02 today :p).

EDIT: remember that there's a difference in dimensions on kiln dried vs green 2x4. (DAMHIKT) Make sure you match that up with the same lumber when you build, I had to return some kiln dried I got to use as the green was different sized...:-().

[Robert Trotter]

Hi, Alan.


I would lap the diagonal on the rails if it was me, I'm not sure by your drawing how you planned to connect those together and/or if you were going to screw them into the bottom of the rail, for instance

If I use the diagonal brace structure for the door I was thinking of using a lap joint with a sort of odd shapped dovetail and then screw or put a pin through that. So that once joined it couldn't pull out.. the top beams of the frame I was thinking of either a M&T or a through mortice double pinned.


But another consideration is the rest of the shed, and making sure the doors will not be too heavy for the other struct.

Yeah, that is why I want to minimize the weight. I will have hold down bolts but I don"t want to rely on then for stabalizing the shed in normal use.

I have been thinking of a bi-fold type of door system which might end up being a little heavier but the moment forces on the hinges and structure would be reduced. But making them so they didn't sag and making them weather proof needs to be thought out. These kinds of doors would also allow a little (really.. a little) extra interior space.

I pretty sure I can make some doors no problems.. the making part could be tricky (since I would need a very flat surface to stop induce any twist into the frames) but not a big concern...It's making them so they don't sag/rack and keep out the weather. They will be veyr heavy and I don't want to have to take them off to straighten them up some time in the future. I am only getting older and things will only be getting heavier.:D

Robert.