Evaluating Bandsaws - What's more important?

[Jeff Cord]

I'm starting the process of looking for a bandsaw and am wondering how people rate the various features.
I'm looking for a 14" saw (likely with a riser) and planning on spending less than $1000.
What am I going to do with it?
Typical hobbyist work including ripping, resawing, and cutting curves.
In reading various reviews different features are discussed, but how do I compare them?
What is more important: motor HP or cast iron wheels?
One review mentioned how a saw with less HP but cast wheels cut better than higher HP but steel wheels.
How important is the trunnion being cast versus non-cast?
What about the size of the table? Or is the size of the table not really an issue since you can create extensions?
What other features did you look at or wish you had (besides a bigger saw)?
thanks,
Jeff

[Bill Boehme]

I have always been dissatisfied with magazine reviews because they seem to focus on motor HP and frills rather than what really matters. Here some thoughts that come to mind:
Do a wiggle test on the table. Try wiggling it side to side, rotating it, and moving it up and down. Apply a lot of downward pressure on the table with your hands to simulate a really heavy piece of wood. If the table flexes, then it won't be much good for resawing large stuff.
Lower the upper guide assembly to where it is just above the table and then try moving it side to side and forwards and backwards. A limber upper guide arm assembly is a black mark against it.
Grab hold of the upper wheel housing and apply considerable downward force. Does it flex a lot? If so, forget it and continue shopping.
Check for overall stability. Try rocking the saw. If it wobbles, then it would be a shakey deal.
Check to see how the drive belt is tensioned. Some of the lower cost 14" saws tension the belt by hanging the weight of the motor on it via a hinged bracket. The problem here is that under a heavy cutting load, the motor will start to bounce and things go downhill from there. There are ways of remediating the problem, but why should you have to fix a new saw.
Horsepower is important. A 1/2 HP motor on a 14" saw is just adequate for cutting without a riser. With a riser, I would suggest getting at least 1 HP.
Check the blade guide adjustments to see how easy (or hard) they are to set properly.
The theory on cast-iron vs. aluminum wheels is that the cast-iron has more inertia and will help plow through a tough cut or will help to smooth out vibrations. I say that this is over-rated. Under a heavy load, the momentum stored in a cast-iron wheel will be spent rather quickly and then you are on the same footing as a saw with aluminum wheels. As far as smoothing out vibrations is concerned, mass-balancing a cast-iron wheel is more critical than mass-balancing an aluminum wheel. If not done well, the cast iron wheel could actually be producing more vibration.
Cost -- you get what you pay for -- well sort of most of the time, but cost is not a direct nor exactly linear gauge of quality. Just don't expect to get more than what you paid for.
Make sure that it has a good solid fence -- no flimsy fences need apply.Well, you get the idea. This is probably enough to get you started on your tire kicking adventure (and, in this case, there are really tires on the machine), but don't do any high kicks on the upper wheel -- you might draw a crowd.

Bill

[John Bailey]

First off, I'll tell you I'm not an expert about bandsaws. However, after a two year search, I believe I'm an expert at researching bandsaws. The best advice is to get the Iturra Desing catalogue. The catalogue is more like a text than a catalogue and is a must, especially if you're looking at a 14"er. I would go so far to say don't buy a bandsaw until you've read this catalogue. They don't have a web presence, so you'll have to call them at 888-722-07078. Second best information is to get the beefiest and most powerful 14"er you can get. Specifically I would recommend the following:

New - 1. Powermatic top model (1 1/2 horse, best all-round machine)
2. General International 90-125 (Oversize table, great finish, good value and 100's less than the Powermatic)
3. Grizzly/Shopfox "Ultimate" (Best value going)

If you want the modern convenience like swinging doors and quick blade release, you need to go with new or almost new.

Used - Delta the older the better (Great blade adjustments. Make sure it's old enough to be American made)

In general, I would tell you if you're going to use the riser, and don't want to upgrade soon, go with a 1 1/2 hp model.

What did I choose? I was looking at larger saws, and in your price range I believe you could do very well. For around $1,000 you can get a pretty good new bandsaw from Grizzly, Rikon, maybe even Jet and Delta. I'm sure others will have recommendations also. Also, there are many great buys in used like the 20" Rockwell/Delta, 16" Walker-Turner, and my all-time favourite an 18" Oliver. For financial reasons I decided to go with a 1948 Delta 14" with no riser. It's a little beefier than most of the new ones. I've decided not to use the riser and to swap the 3/4 hp motor for a 1 1/12 motor in the future. It passed the nickel test and with a good blade I've resawn 5" teak and 4" mahogony with very good results. I'm very happy with my choice, but, someday would like to get one of the larger saws.

Remember, I'm not a bandsaw expert, just someone who devoured all the info I could during a 2 yr. search. In the end, I went with my heart and bought the old machine. Seems like everything in my shop has to be 50 yrs. old.

Good luck, have fun.

John

[Eddie Darby]

I would up my budget and get the 14" Laguna bandsaw if I were doing a large amount of resawing.

[Doug Shepard]

First off, I'll tell you I'm not an expert about bandsaws. However, after a two year search, I believe I'm an expert at researching bandsaws. The best advice is to get the Iturra Desing catalogue. The catalogue is more like a text than a catalogue and is a must, especially if you're looking at a 14"er. I would go so far to say don't buy a bandsaw until you've read this catalogue. ....



John - Thanks. You saved me the trouble of typing up a reply.

[Jeff Horton]

What is more important: motor HP or cast iron wheels? [/quote]

I can't say this from experience but as mechanical designer I doubt that cast iron wheels are going to make up for horsepower. Heavier wheels will add mass and momentum and that is a good thing. But for a continuous cut like resawing it takes horsepower (well actually torque) to drive those wheels.

[quote]One review mentioned how a saw with less HP but cast wheels cut better than higher HP but steel wheels.

Define better. I wonder what they mean by cut better? Quality of cut or speed and ease of cutting? depends on what he means. I would think, and I admit I could be wrong, that it would take some really large heavy wheels to make for more horsepower. I would just about have to see it to believe it.


How important is the trunnion being cast versus non-cast?

Lot of opinions here. But as long as they are quality made and of adequate strength I don't get to concerned. I don't think I am ever going to wear out a set of trunnions the way I use a saw. Unless there is a casting flaw of course. Just don't move you saw by grabbing the table. But if they can't handle that there pretty weak made.


What about the size of the table? Or is the size of the table not really an issue since you can create extensions?
Depending on what you doing but a bigger table is nicer at time. But it's simple enough to make one you can lay on top. So I wouldn't let that sway me unless all other things were equal.


What other features did you look at or wish you had (besides a bigger saw)?
I bought the Grizzly 14" ultimate a couple a years ago and I totally happy with the saw. Only a couple of times have I found it to small. I have used it great deal but i find myself going to it more and more now.

My only complaint has nothing to do with the saw. It the fact that I don't have Dust Collection set up yet. Especially when resawing I find that it creates some really fine sawdust and tends to follow the blade back up out of the saw and it drifts around and into my face ...well lungs. But as I said, DC or even my Shop vac would cure that.

Let me add not to overlook older used saws. Like Johns old Delta. I have a new one but I am on the look out for an older larger band saw. Most old saws were designed before 'value engineering' set it in and are great saws that you can pass on to your grandkids. Not to say all new ones are bad! If you're mechanically inclined you can save some money and get a great saw that way that might need a little attention. Just food for thought.

[Robert MacKinnon]

I, like John, am no bandsaw expert but I have own a couple of bandsaws and know what works and doesn't work for me. So, I will discuss what I have found important in a saw from my experience.

My first bandsaw was a 14" Delta-patterned clone from the Far East which I bought new for around $800. It had cast iron frame, table, trunnions, and spoked wheels. The supplied motor was 1HP and I upgraded to a 2HP after-market when I added the riser block to the machine. The manufacturing quality on that machine was inferior and showed in the poor blade tracking and frame flex when the blade was tensioned. I added Cool Blocks, link belts, silicone steel blades, just about every accessory to try and improve the performance of the saw yet I was constantly fiddling with the machine to get a good cut. I managed to fine tune the machine eventually but it was a pig to use. I sold the machine two years after buying it never having been satisfied with its quality and performance.

The next saw I bought was a 20" Centauro, a European welded steel-framed machine, which I picked up used for $500. I swapped the motor and electrics (to make it single phase) and cleaned and lubricated the drivetrain and blade supports. This machine is a joy to use. It's powerful, stable and reliable. It has huge cast iron wheels that impart inertia to the drive so that the motor has less work to maintain speed. The table is large and flat. The steel frame doesn't flex at all even when tensioning a 1" blade. The difference is night and day between it and my first saw.

Bottom line is if I were you I would seek a higher end bandsaw in the used market because you will get more for your money if you shop wisely. Go for a European welded steel frame instead of a cast iron frame so that frame flex is not an issue. Buy the largest saw you think you can accomodate in your shop, especially since you are planning on resawing. Blade support and drive train are the most important features on a bandsaw to watch out for because they have the greatest impact on cut quality and the reliability of the saw. A good blade spport system means that you spend little time readjusting and tuning the blade and more time actually making sawdust. Check out used machine dealers, Craigs List and local auction houses for used saws in your area.

Good luck.

- Robert.

[Chris Barton]

I'm starting the process of looking for a bandsaw and am wondering how people rate the various features.
I'm looking for a 14" saw (likely with a riser) and planning on spending less than $1000.
What am I going to do with it?
Typical hobbyist work including ripping, resawing, and cutting curves.
In reading various reviews different features are discussed, but how do I compare them?
What is more important: motor HP or cast iron wheels?
One review mentioned how a saw with less HP but cast wheels cut better than higher HP but steel wheels.
How important is the trunnion being cast versus non-cast?
What about the size of the table? Or is the size of the table not really an issue since you can create extensions?
What other features did you look at or wish you had (besides a bigger saw)?
thanks,
Jeff

Rarely is it this easy to answer a question but, based upon your budget and needs your best bet in a new machine would be one of the new 18" Rikons. Prices at about your budget, has received fantastic reviews, and Woodcraft will back you up all the way if you need parts etc...

[Stu Ablett in Tokyo Japan]

If I may, one of the most important purchases you should make, before you buy any saw is the book by Lonnie Bird, called "The Bandsaw Book".

I think it is about $13 at Amazon.

Lots of good info, but the other thing is, no matter what saw you buy, having this as a guide when it comes to set up the saw, will make whatever you have preform to it's potential.

Good luck!

[Bernie Weishapl]

Amen to what Stu said. Excellent book and believe it has helped me setup my Grizzly G0555 to be a awesome machine.

[Dennis Peacock]

Wow....lots of good info in here.

Now...I too have been studying bandsaws, because I have one and want to make it run "better". :)

1. An expensive bandsaw that isn't properly aligned and tuned won't cut any better than a cheap bandsaw that isn't properly aligned and tuned up.

2. A cheap bandsaw that IS properly aligned and tuned up will cut as good or better than a bandsaw that costs a LOT more money.

14" bandsaws are very popular while 16" and 18" bandsaws are gaining space in the popular bandsaw world.

Good to excellent blade guides, thrust bearings, and good blades will carry you a long way to being a satisfied BS user.

Good thread!!!!

[Dave Mapes]

The only reason hp is so hyped IMO is for the few serious woodworkers working with extremely hardwoods or the impatient user. That being said any hardword or wood can be cut with a underpowered tool as long you reconized the tools limitation and match the speed of feed to the tools capability.

to determine which bandsaw to aquire I recommend that a person consider what type of wood you will cut most frequency then secondly what woods that would be an exception, the frequency and your degree of patient over time and apply that to an tools ability to satify.

[John Bailey]

before you buy any saw is the book by Lonnie Bird, called "The Bandsaw Book".



Good book, I've got it and it's a wealth of info.

John

[John Bush]

Hi Jeff,
I researched this same purchase two years ago and ended up choosing a 2hp, 18", CI wheeled, stamped trunioned saw that has proven to be a great value for me and a good fit for what I need it to do. I don't think the issues of trunion or wheel materials is that big of a deal, but had I known then what I know now I would have chosen a design with a foot brake/off switch. There have been many times I have held on to the offcuts waiting for the wheels to stop. Actual timing is ~ 1+ min., but it seems like an eternity. I have ruined two tape measures when I hit the still running but totally silent blade as I reset the fence. For $1K I don't think there are (m)any units out there with a foot brake, but if you keep looking for used units and can be patient I bet you will come up with a great deal.Good luck, JCB.

[Stu Ablett in Tokyo Japan]

John Bush, that is a very good point, the foot brake.

My old resaw, a Hitachi B601 did not come with the foot brake, and when I first what running the saw, it too took a long time to stop.

I solved this, to some extent, buy installing two wheel brushes, they are just nylon brushes with a metal frame that I screwed to my saw frame and they give me two bonuses, one, they keep the wheels way cleaner and knock the dust off them, which helps with the DC, and the additional drag, once the motor is shut off, means that instead of waiting a minute for the wheels to stop, it might take 10 seconds.

Just wanted to add that to the mix, as even though a BS may not have a foot brake, you can add the brushes to slow things down a tad.

Cheers!

[Andrew Shaber]

I have the General 90-125 and would NOT recommend it to anyone. It has a nice lineup of features at the price (quick tension release, bearing guides, two speeds, 1HP 110/220 motor, blower, rip fence, mitre guage etc)

For the nickel test, I don't know that a nickel laying flat on the table would not vibrate off and fall on the floor; especially in the high speed. I've improved it by putting a bunch of bricks in the base and balance the top wheel etc but it is still bad. There was 1/16" play on the top wheel shaft. I had to fabricate a spacer just to stabilize it on the shaft.

The guide is pretty flimsy. The trunions are aluminum and the flexing is obvious. If I do any resawing, I"ll have to build a support table around it to hold the weight.

General does not return support calls. I called and emailed multiple times and couldn't get a response.

[Dan Stuewe]

I'm in the same boat.

I've put a priority on a foot brake (may reconcider after Stu's post). But the least expensive new saw I've found with a foot brake is the Steel City 50250 (http://www.steelcitytoolworks.com/products_tools.cfm?section=2&category=2&tool=50250)

A question I wanted to throw out is why on the Italian steel frame bandsaws (MiniMax, Laguna and higher end Bridgewoods) that I've seen do they not have quick tension release built in? It seems like a common feature for newer 14" saws as well as the $900-$1200 steel saws, but not the "top end" ones.

[Rob Diz]

I have been going through the same analysis for the past number of months. I was wondering what folks have found with regard to the G0513x and the Rikon 18, both of which can be had for around a grand.

[James Carmichael]

The only reason hp is so hyped IMO is for the few serious woodworkers working with extremely hardwoods or the impatient user. That being said any hardword or wood can be cut with a underpowered tool as long you reconized the tools limitation and match the speed of feed to the tools capability.
.

Amen.

I think a riser block on a 14" saw is a bit like the 4WD SUVs out on the highway. Seldom, if ever, is the capability used or truly needed.

You can get into a 16 or 18" bandsaw with your $1000 budget.

[john tomljenovic]

My first bandsaw was a 14" chinese delta. it was pretty smooth, and all the latest features like quick releases and dust port. I hardly used it for a couple years or so. It was severly underpowered to do any meaningful resawing (3/4 hp) kept stalling the motor and tripping breakers. and even with the port dust collection was non existant, having too much open space around the doors. and even after constant fiddling with blades and guides still had what I considered a pretty rough cut.

after I realized I was in this woodworking thing for good I decided to go the other extreme with a 20" minimax and carbide blade, for resawing it eats the wood as fast as I can push. dust collection is much improved with the sealed doors. and even fresh out of the crate, misaligned and with a warped table did a brillantly smooth cut compared to the 14". it is much better now and is as good as I think you can get it for a bandsaw.

oh, and one more thing. the bandsaw went from storage shelf to something I use everytime in the shop.

I am not saying you need an italian saw, but with your budget of a $1000, seriously look at a asian steel frame saw like the grizzly 513 or rikon. a used euro saw like Robert got evan better. but I doubt you will find the deal he got.

HP is important to me, but I am just impatient. standing around forever to get some boards sliced up is not my thing. the old cast iron designs are just that, old. and with the new technology being available at a lower price it seems a no brainer where I would be looking.

hope my experience helps you in your quest.

[Alfred Clem]

When it comes right down to cutting wood on a bandsaw -- and there is a lot of good advice in this series of comments -- I am surprised nobody suggested our original poster was not cautioned to read up on bandsaw blades -- how to choose them and how to use them.

I learned more by reading the literature put out by Suffolk Machinery Co., makers of Timberwolf blades, than I ever could have learned otherwise. There are several other excellent blade manufacturers.

Take your time and become clued in on blades -- that's my advice. Which ever bandsaw you choose, it's only as good as the right blade, propertly installed, properly maintained, and properly used. End of sermon.

[Steve Rowe]

A question I wanted to throw out is why on the Italian steel frame bandsaws (MiniMax, Laguna and higher end Bridgewoods) that I've seen do they not have quick tension release built in? It seems like a common feature for newer 14" saws as well as the $900-$1200 steel saws, but not the "top end" ones.
Dan, I used to own a Delta 14" and currently have the LT-18. I did not have a quick tension release on the Delta and to tension the blade it seemed like it took forever turning that 2" knob to get even a 1/4" blade tensioned. This was also a knuckle buster being fairly close to the upper housing. The LT-18 takes only a few turns to tension a 1/2" blade and is about a 5" handwheel that is easily accessible. Based on my experiences, the 14" saws need it and the Italian saws do not.
Steve

[Barry Bruner]

I have been going through the same analysis for the past number of months. I was wondering what folks have found with regard to the G0513x and the Rikon 18, both of which can be had for around a grand.
I have the Grizzly G0513X , I think its a good saw, no viberation plenty of power. Also used the Delta 18" its as good but higher priced. Haven`t used MIN-MAX OR LUGANA but I`m sure they are great , just didn`t want to turn loose that much cash. I would like a brake which my saw don`t have, and had to buy a light also. Barry Bruner

[Charlie Plesums]

...A question I wanted to throw out is why on the Italian steel frame bandsaws (MiniMax, Laguna and higher end Bridgewoods) that I've seen do they not have quick tension release built in? It seems like a common feature for newer 14" saws as well as the $900-$1200 steel saws, but not the "top end" ones.
I have a Grizzly G0555 - a great upgrade from the 14 inch Jet it replaced. And I love the tension quick release.

I also have a 24 inch MiniMax. I doubt if I could pull the quick release to put the 25,000 psi that is often run on the blades on that machine, but the tension wheel is convenient, large, and quick to set. No desire for a quick release.

I resawed and everything on the G0555 - great machine for the money - but the MM24 does a FAR better job...even cutting veneers well inder 1/16 inch. I kept the G0555 for quick curve work with a narrow blade, and leave the carbide blade on the MiniMax.

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi, I had a 14" Taiwanese clone saw with riser block for many years and was never happy with it. It had poor blade guides, the table trunion flexed, the saw was unable to tension blades properly and the motor lacked the power for heavy cuts. I guess I received what I paid for.

Several years ago I purchased a General International 90-240 which is a 17" saw.

It has a 430mm X 600mm cast iron table, 2 blade speeds of 475/972 m/minute, a 1.5Kw motor.

The saw has a quick tension release lever, 2 dust pickup ports, balanced cast iron wheels and pulleys as well as ball bearing blade guides.

I have been very happy with this saw, it resaws with ease, and the 295mm height of cut has been large enough for everything I've wanted to do, from sawing veneer to rough sawing small logs and re-sawing pieces for book matching.

Regards, Rod.