Fuming with Ammonia - What Mask?

[Blaine Harrison]

I am planning to fume a quartersawn white oak (QSWO) sofa table I'm making. After a bit of a search, I've found some 29.5% ammonia and am making the tent big enough for the table as well as a couple of other pieces I'll build in the future.

I need a mask to protect myself from getting fumed and wonder if others are using the fuming technique and if so, what personal protective equipment do you use? Do you have a specific recommendation for a mask that will filter out the ammonia?

After talking to 3M, they recommend a full face mask that's pretty expensive. I'm also not sure I need full face coverage and would prefer a half mask. Any thoughts?

Thanks in advance,

Blaine

[Rennie Heuer]

Blaine,

I've seen demonstrations of this done and a respirator with the appropriate filters was all that was worn - EXCEPT - do not forget eye protection!

Others more knowledgable than I can tell you what filter to use.

[Richard Wolf]

For years people have called fuming very dangerous, and it is because of the ammonia. The whole thing with the tent and kids or animals, and then you must enter the tent. Anyway, I don't recall where I found this information, but the safest and easiest way to fume oak is to rent a box truck the size you need, load it with your furniture, place the pan of ammonia inside, close the tailgate and lock it. When it's done, open the tail gate and stand back. You could most likely rent a small truck for $20.00 from Hertz and the smell will be gone by the time you return it. You didn't hear this from me.

Richard

[Rob Bodenschatz]

First of all, Richard, you crack me up. :D

Second, could someone tell a newbie what "fuming" is? What is it supposed to accomplish?

[Richard Wolf]

Hey Rob, I was serious.
Fuming is putting white oak in an atmosphere with ammonia, as you can assume. It turns the white oak a warm brown in color. This method was used alot during the Arts and Crafts and Craftmans style periods of furniture building.

Richard

[Rob Bodenschatz]

Hey Rob, I was serious.

I figured. It was the last line that got me, though.



Fuming is putting white oak in an atmosphere with ammonia, as you can assume. It turns the white a warm brown in color. This method was used alot during the Arts and Crafts and Craftmens periods of furniture building.

Richard

Thanks!

[Richard Wolf]

Just checking.

Richard

[Dan Oliphant]

Blaine, I have gone through the process of fuming white oak. One of the precautions that I took was in the design and construction of my containment tent. The pieces that are going to be exposed to the fumes must be placed on a surface that is solid enough to hold all items, these items must be raised off this surface in a manor that will allow the fumes to migrate completly around each item. Ammonia is a heavy fume, therefor it will fall to the lowest area first before filling the rest of the tent.
When the tent is constructed, make yourself a hatch that is framed. Hinges are not needed, tape to top side to the hatch to the surrounding frame. Locate the hatch where you will be placing your container of ammonia. When you are ready to pour the ammonia into the container, have a roll of tape near were you are working. With your head outside of the tent, and wearing long gloves to protect your hands and arms,open the bottle in the tent, pour the ammonia into the container, leave the empty bottle in the tent after pouring. Quickly close the hatch and tape all open seams, recheck all other seams for leakage.
If the items are left in the fumes for an extended period of time, like 72 hours, they will turn dark brown (depending on the amount of tannons in the oak) so pay attention to your wood.

[David Wilson]

Blaine
A recomendation. If you decide to do some fuming notify your local Police Dept. Amonia is used in the manufacture of meth amphetemine and it would be a real pain to have a neighbor smell the amonia, call the cops and have a swat team show up at your door.

[Mike Cutler]

Blaine.

Most quality respirators have the ability to change the filters based on the hazard, in this case ammonia.

I suspect that 3m's recommendation for the fullface respirator was to protect you from inhaling the ammonia, and protecting your eyes from the vapor. Ammonia sucks to get in your eyes.

This is 3m's webpage for their NIOSH approved ammonia cartridge.

http://www.3m.com/Product/information/Ammonia-Respirator.html

I don't think that you need the fullface respirator unless you plan to stand in the area for a length of time. The half mask should do fine.

[Ken Garlock]

Blaine, take a look at Gempler's website (http://www.gemplers.com/). Drill down Safety > Personal Protection > Respirators/filters. They carry several models of 3M equipment plus other brands. They also sell the replacement filter cartridges and a full line of parts.

[Blaine Harrison]

Thanks everybody for the responses. The Gempler site is perfect and their half-mask is about 1/10th the price of the full mask. Sealing the eyes isn't too much of a problem I don't think.

I've already started building the tent for this, but hadn't thought about putting on a hinged door. That should be pretty easy. I'm making this so it can be knocked down because there are a few pieces that I intend to make and fume. I'd planned to use tape to seal it.

Thanks, too for the tip on notifying the police. There's beginning to be a presence of meth labs in my area, so the cops are on the lookout.

Blaine

[Ted Fullerton]

Blaine,

Can I ask where you found the 29.5% ammonia?

I've been looking to try fuming with a small project, but have had a difficult time sourcing the ammonia.

[Larry Fox]

FWIW - certainly does not address the original question of which respirator but Jeff Jewitt has an article in FWW (I forget the number) where he discusses a way to achieve the same effect with a dye-stain mixture.

For my money, I might be inclined to take a look at this before I went down the ammonia road.

Edit: Found this on Homestead

http://www.homesteadfinishing.com/htdocs/mission_oak.htm

[Gary Hoemann]

Ted, I found 26% anmminia at the local blueprint company. It was used, and it was free. They needed to get rid of it. It has worked fine. When I talked to them on the phone they said they would need some I.D. Again the meth angle.

[Blaine Harrison]

Ted, I found 26% anmminia at the local blueprint company. It was used, and it was free. They needed to get rid of it. It has worked fine. When I talked to them on the phone they said they would need some I.D. Again the meth angle.

Like Gary, I got mine at a local reproduction company (blueprint). What I got was higher concentration and it was new. The guy in the shop told me that another woodworker had come in to get some of the used stuff and had come back because it didn't work. I decided that $15 was a lot cheaper than what dyes and stains would cost. Of course when you add in the cost of the materials for making the tent, the finishing cost goes up. :o

I did not need to provide any ID on this even though I offered. This particular reproduction company is located within 50 feet of the police station.

Blaine

[jeremy levine]

What happens if you wipe said wood with amonia , rather then fume ?

[Russ Massery]

It will turn black in a big hurry.

[Dan Larson]

Blaine,

The reason for the 3M recommendation to use a full face mask is that ammonia/water solution (ammonium hydroxide) is classified as a lachrymator, which means that it causes watering of the eyes. Some lachrymators are pretty mild, like onions, and some are nasty, like tear gas. 30% ammonia is serious stuff. Treat it with respect. Honestly, wearing a full faced mask is a good idea when using it in an enclosed space like a tent. As a minimum, wear heavy nitrile gloves and a half-mask respirator. If it were me doing the work, I would be looking into Larry's suggestion before I messed around with ammonia.

Dan

[Eric Mims]

I just fumed a white oak mirror recently (you can find a thread with pics of it if you search within the past month on this forum). I had a nice 3M mask from home depot..it worked fine, but frankly I held my breath when I was near the exposed ammonia. Open the bottle and pour into dish that can have a top (I used disposable tupperware types that lunch meat comes in..great for mixing paints/stains too). Then you can position it just right in your tent without hurrying and then open the top when you're ready to seal it up.

I'll say this, you really need sealed eye protection, glasses/standard shop glasses will not cut it.. I will use my swimming goggles next time. it really burned my eyes, I'd say from 4' away. Gloves of course too.. and watch any open cuts/wounds..it'll burn those from a distance too.

You should be able to get 29% from any blueprint shop..around 10 bucks/gallon. It should be no big deal.

Next time I do it, I will add in 4 or 5 scraps of the same wood and take one out at ~6 hour intervals testing for color change...finish the scrap just as you intend to finish the piece..it changes drastically and I found trying to judge just by eye on unfinished wood was difficult.

have fun, please post update.

[Bill Boehme]

I would recommend that you use Jeff Jewett's method rather than using industrial strength ammonia which is very damgerous stuff. I don't believe that ANY negative pressure respirator is sufficient, because the ammonia fumes displace oxygen and if you get into an oxygen deficient environment, you will become incapacitated before you know it -- despite the fact that your mask has an ammonia filter. You will find this information on the warning sheet that comes with the filter. Full face protection is also critical to prevent permanent eye injury. The only safe respiratory system in a high-level ammonia environment is a supplied-air system (i.e., full headgear and oxygen tank on your back.

When I was young, I worked at a plant that had high pressure ammonia lines for a large refrigeration system (an entire warehouse was kept at -15 deg. F). In case of a line breaking, you had about 15 seconds to exit the building. I got to see first-hand what happened when a line ruptured -- fortunately, everyone escaped, but we were concerned about one employee until we saw that he had escaped by riding a conveyor out to the loading dock.

Bill

[Brett Baldwin]

I'll add to the general warnings to be careful about working with the ammonia. I've worked with it and been around it when about 10 gallons boiled itself out of a drum. It was a bad day and I have the chemical burn scars to prove it. That said, an organic filter cartridge is what you want for the mask and sealed eye protection (like the swim goggles suggested earlier) are necessary too because it burns your eyes but good. And they were also serious about the fumes burning in open cuts. Imagine getting a papercut and then pouring lemon juice on it. Same feeling. Altogether some really fun stuff.