D/C fuse blowing, Help! Bill Pentz is coming Sat.

[Jan Williamson]

Hi all,
Finally got the Clearvue fired up last night. All I can say it WOW!!! I am jazzed! It ran beautifully 10 or so times last night and today, but it has blown two set of fuses today. I have it wired to a 30 amp CB, with # 12 wiring. I also have a remote that activates the contactor. When it does blow the fuses, it does so in a very short time (1 second). The remote still activates the contactor.
Any ideas? Bill is coming on Sat. for an air quality test.:eek:

[Don Baer]

Jan,
We need more info. Are you getting to much airflow, is the ducting hooked up. There could be any number of things wrong but without more info it's impossible to help. I'll PM you my cell number and maybe I can help you over the phone.

[Matt Meiser]

How big is the motor? The fuses? I assume it is 220V?

[Jerry White]

As Don and Matt said, we need more information. I'm a bit confused when you say you are blowing fuses, but your 30 amp breaker is tripping. Do you have both a fuse and a breaker in the circuit? Have you inadvertently opened all the gates in the system (this could cause the motor to draw more than the rated current)?

Also, I don't think this would be your immediate problem, but for a 30 amp circuit, you should have 10 guage wire. Just something to be aware of.

Good luck!

[Rick Christopherson]

I don't know anything about your dust collector problem, but you cannot put 30 amp circuit protection on 12 guage wires. The maximum circuit breaker size for 12 guage wire is 20 amps.

[Jan Williamson]

The DC is a 5 HP Clearvue, and is wired to a 30 amp circuit breaker, and yes the ducting is installed. Do you think I should start the DC with all the blast gates closed? I will try in included pics of the set-up.

[Jerry White]

Yes, try it with all gates closed. That will minimize the current pulled by the motor.

[Jan Williamson]

Ok, So I have a section of #12 wiring (about 2 ft)that goes from the motor to the circuit breaker. It is a piece of wiring that was originally was used for a dryer outlet for the garage. (Maybe it is 10 gauge!!) It is quite thick compared to the romex I have. I am trying to upload some pics. (having my problems with pic size)

[Matt Meiser]

Rick has a VERY good point. Your wiring is undersized. You should correct that, then fix the next problem. The breaker is to protect the wiring, not the motor.

[Jan Williamson]

OK Don please PM me with your cell phone number, since I can't seem to get this picture thing right!!

The wiring was done to code, according to an electrical contractor. I am just ignorant on this part!!!!:mad:

[Jan Williamson]

48366 There! I did it :cool:

[Jan Williamson]

48367 Here is another one.
Don, I didn't get your PM yet.
Thanks again!

[Jan Williamson]

After talking with my husband, he said all the wiring is # 10. So that is good.
I wonder if the closet that the Cyclone is in is too airtight. I haven't installed a vent yet, but there was a lot of air coming out from below the doors. I tryed it with the doors open, and it fire's right up, and again with the doors closed and it blew the fuses again.... I'll be installing the vent tomorrow.

[Randy Denby]

I think you found your problem. If you restrict air on the downflow side of the blade /output, then it will up the amps.Restrict on the inflow side and the amps go down.
Randy

[Doug Shepard]

Since you already found the problem, this is a bit irrelevant but though I'd ask it here anyway.
One thing that surprised me a bit when I wired up my ClearVue was the wire gauge inside the motor cover. Obviously this is more of a Leeson question, but the wires that get wire nutted to the 220 10 gauge (or 8 gauge in my case) looked like they were 14-gauge. For sure, not bigger than 12-gauge. Why is the smaller gauge wire OK for the last 6" on the motor end when you need 10-gauge for the wiring run? Just a question out of curiousity from an electrical idiot.

[Chuck Saunders]

Insulation type has a lot to do with it. The wire in the motor can have an insulation that can handle a much higher temperature but the cost would be to high to use for house wire.
Chuck

[Jim Brecker]

Remove the remote gizmos, wire it direct? See what happens.

[Russ Massery]

My Clearvue is wired with 10ga.12ga seem a little on the lite side.But I'm not a Electrican. I recall Ed saying that is son Matt's was tripping the breaker when it was new. And they found a solution. I would contact Ed and see what he says. I would try would Jim had said also.

[Jan Williamson]

I have a 110 switch attached to the contactor so I can have a back-up incase I lose the remote. By wiring it direct do you mean not using the remote? When I want to use just the switch have the option of plugging into the installed switch.
I also installed a 8X15 vent in the DC closet, turned on the DC and all day it has been firing up flawlessly. Until this evening:mad: Blew it again. I wonder if any of you can look at how this circuit is wired and tell me if everything looks ok? The 30 amp buss fuses and the pull out thingy:confused: are not installed in the CB in the pic. The next step is to replace the CB. Unless there is something to know about the 30 amp fuses, like some are better than others?

[Blaine Harrison]

Since you already found the problem, this is a bit irrelevant but though I'd ask it here anyway.
One thing that surprised me a bit when I wired up my ClearVue was the wire gauge inside the motor cover. Obviously this is more of a Leeson question, but the wires that get wire nutted to the 220 10 gauge (or 8 gauge in my case) looked like they were 14-gauge. For sure, not bigger than 12-gauge. Why is the smaller gauge wire OK for the last 6" on the motor end when you need 10-gauge for the wiring run? Just a question out of curiousity from an electrical idiot.

Doug,
The reason you can use smaller gauge wire inside the motor has to do with the distance the electricity has to travel inside that smaller gauge. The longer the wire, the more the resistance. The more resistance, the more heat buildup. The more heat, the greater the chance of failure. As an example, our vacuum cleaner has about a 25' cord. After it gets used, the cord is cool except right at the electrical outlet, where it gets fairly warm and there's a gradation of heat as you get closer to the plug. Also, this is why most manufacturers of electrical devices tell you to avoid using extension cords, or to use one of adequate gauge.

Hope that helps.

Blaine

[Jan Williamson]

Ed, from Cleavue has been patiently working with me, and today he suggested using slow blow fuses. He said these motors pull up to 100 amps on the start-up, and will blow a regular fuse.
So that is what I will buy today. :)

[glenn bradley]

BINGO. We have a winner. Enjoy your Cyclone ;-)

[Rick Christopherson]

Doug,
The reason you can use smaller gauge wire inside the motor has to do with the distance the electricity has to travel inside that smaller gauge. The longer the wire, the more the resistance. The more resistance, the more heat buildup. The more heat, the greater the chance of failure. As an example, our vacuum cleaner has about a 25' cord. After it gets used, the cord is cool except right at the electrical outlet, where it gets fairly warm and there's a gradation of heat as you get closer to the plug. Also, this is why most manufacturers of electrical devices tell you to avoid using extension cords, or to use one of adequate gauge.

Hope that helps.

Blaine I am sorry Blaine, but your explanation is not entirely correct. The size of the wire is dependant on how quickly it can dissipate the heat that is generated. The length of the wire determines how much of a voltage drop the wire will have, but not the heat generation. Heat generation is a function of resistance per unit length and the current levels. The rate of heat generation must be lower than the rate of heat dissipation for a given maximum permissible temperature. A longer wire will actually generate less heat overall because the current will be lower due to the overall resistance.

The reason why your vacuum cleaner cord is hotter at the plug is because the plug is a bottleneck to the current. The small contact area between the prongs and the outlet causes a very high current density for a small area, and this results in heat. That heat is conducted through the wires, and that is why you have a temperature gradiant away from the plug.

Because the insulation inside the motor is thinner, it permits greater heat dissipation than a power cord will have. The resistance of the copper itself is trivial compared to the magnetic resistance (reactance) from the spinnig motor. This is why a motor's startup current is so high, because when the motor is not spinning, the only resistance to the circuit is the copper. As the motor gets up to speed, the reactance becomes the dominant factor.

Carrying this concept further, the reason why power cords on tools are permitted to be smaller than the house wiring for the same circuit is because the power cord is assumed to be open-air, versus the house wiring being enclosed in the walls or conduit, where there is less air movement to cool the wire. Technically, you can legally feed 50 amps through #12 wire if it is maintained in a low temprature environement (there are calculations for doing this).

[Curt Harms]

Ed, from Cleavue has been patiently working with me, and today he suggested using slow blow fuses. He said these motors pull up to 100 amps on the start-up, and will blow a regular fuse.
So that is what I will buy today. :)

I believe some circuit breakers are motor rated, others are not. Motor rated circuit breakers are "slow blow" to compensate for starting surges, and they're more expensive.

Curt

[Jan Williamson]

Ok, Ed suggested using slow blow, or "time delayed" fuses. So we installed them and it has been working great since. My husband hooked up an amp meter and it did pull over 100 amp for the first second or so, but then quickly dropped to 7.8 with all the blast gates closed and 15.8 with all eight gates open.