Handsaw Recomendation

[John Bailey]

I ran into a problem today that needed a decent handsaw. I'm building a boat and I was fitting the joints on the bow and stern stems. These are made by cutting three different pieces and epoxying them together. The "joints" are straight line joints that must fit perfectly. If I were to use power tools, it would be a fairly straight forward line things up and let-r-rip. I wanted to use hand tools for this job. I cut the joints out on a bandsaw, then, clamping the joint together, I used a handsaw to saw down the joint to make the fit perfect. It worked well, but my cheap Stanley "toolbox" saw was a pain to use. It's time for a good handsaw.

What would you guys suggest. I seem to like the old stuff better than the new stuff. I really don't know what to look for and was hoping someone at the Creek could send me off in the right direction. I need a good general all-round saw. I won't be doing fine joinery and furniture very often, just need a good saw to make some cuts.

Thanks, John

[Rob Bodenschatz]

You could get Zahid to make you one:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=44047

Actually, I'm interested in hearing what comes out of this thread as well. I've been lookin at Mike Wenzloff's saws but that may be more than you want to spend if you're only going to use it every once in a while. Then again, maybe not. I hear they're great.

[Alan Turner]

You could buy an old Disston for about $30 or so, and have it filed professionally, and you would have a jonery saw for the ages. Maybe buy two, one crosscut and one for rip.

[John Bailey]

Alan,

If I would look for an old Disston, what would I look for in a good one?

Thanks, John

[Alan Turner]

John,
You would be seking a pre-WWII backsaw, which is identified by an apple, as opposed to a beech, handle. You would be looking for a dead straight back, and a pretty straight balde, with NO kinks. You would want to avoid any rust pitting within 1/2" of the teeth. You would want a length that is comfortable for you, from 14" on the long side, to 10" on the shorter side. The handle could be missing a bit here and there, but a major break would be nice to avoid. Some rust is fine, and can be cleaned up with Kerosine and 600 grit or finer SC wet dry paper.

[Martin Shupe]

Alan,

How do you tell an apple handle from a beech one?

(I know, dumb question for a forester.)

I think the apple is darker, and the beech is lighter, but I am guessing.

Thanks,

[Ken Bryant]

John,

I've just finished the stem (3-part) for a twelve-foot, carvel-planked rowboat. The stem pieces were 2" thick white oak. I sawed the mating surfaces, but only very roughly (maybe 1/16" extra left on). I used a large rip-filed Japanese saw for that, but really any rip-filed saw would work.

What finishes off those surfaces best is a plane. I used an L.N. 4.5 for most of it. It's very much like jointing two boards, except that for the "nibbed" ends you need to use something like a chisel plane to get right into the corner.

Then -- for the last stage of getting the long seams to mate, light-tight -- I used adhesive-backed rough sandpaper attached to a 9x11x2" granite block, to provide a totally-flat reference surface. I ground a bit, fitted, ground some more. I used graphite on one mating surface, rubbed the two surfaces together to find the points that were still in the way.

Finally I kerfed the nibbed joints -- the short ones -- until everything came together, clamped and drilled rivet holes, then gooped it up, clamped it again, and riveted the pieces together with quarter-inch copper rod.

The saw is just the rough-cutter in this approach; it's the plane, and then the perfectly flat grinding surface, that do the fine work.

[Alan Turner]

Martin,
Apple is actually a pretty light colored wood, just a bit darker than maple. But, as seen on a vintage saw handle, usually appears to be much darker. It is smooth, even colored, closed grain. Beech is open grain, with flecks (lacking in the apple). Also, dependiing upon the age of the saw, you will likely find the beech handle to be rather course, with sharp corners at the opening, whereas the apple handles will be more rounded.

[Jerry Palmer]

John,
Depending on the thickness of the pieces you'll normally work with, a backsaw may or may not be what you want. Also, if a backsaw would fit your needs, you would need to determine what type of backsaw would fit your needs the most. Obviously, a dovetail saw would be way small for the type of boat work you're doing, and maybe even a larger tenon saw could be too small. Trying to choose a single general purpose saw is really tough to do.

While it is not impossible to cut small joinery (relatively speaking) with a full sized handsaw, it is quite difficult to cut a 4 X 4 with a small backsaw. Considering your present saw of choice is a "toolbox" saw, its replacement might be either a panel saw or a full sized handsaw. The type of wood you generally would need to cut with it is also a criteria that needs to be considered.

For overall general purpose useage, the best saw for you might be a full length handsaw, filed crosscut with 8 PPI. If you're cutting a lot of really hard woods, pecan/hickory, rock maple, or some of the hard exotics, a higher tooth count might be in order.

Having to choose a single saw is really tough to do. Remember that even the folks of old, toting their "shop" onsite generally carried several saws of different configurations in their kit.

Of course, one of these might be the ticket:

http://xs207.xs.to/xs207/06390/kit16.jpg

[Martin Shupe]

Martin,
Apple is actually a pretty light colored wood, just a bit darker than maple. But, as seen on a vintage saw handle, usually appears to be much darker. It is smooth, even colored, closed grain. Beech is open grain, with flecks (lacking in the apple). Also, dependiing upon the age of the saw, you will likely find the beech handle to be rather course, with sharp corners at the opening, whereas the apple handles will be more rounded.

Thanks Alan, that makes sense. The older saws I have been watching on ebay seem to have a dark brown handle, which I think is apple. The newer ones are lighter, have the ray flecks, and the handles appear "blocky" to me, for lack of a better term. The apple saws go for much more money than the beech saws, from what I have observed. Thanks again.

[Alan Turner]

John,
After seeing Jerry's comments, and re-reading your initial post, I agree that what you want may well be a full sized saw. Again, an old Disston would be fine, and for the full size saws, 8ppi should be fine. The apple handle is still the way to go -- pre-WWII. When you have it filed, let the filer know that you will be cutting hardwoods, not 2x4's, and he will make the set finer, and thus the saw will track much better in hardwoods.

[John Bailey]

Thanks guys,

I've got plenty of info now.

Jerry, that's a good looking saw. What is it?

John

[Jerry Palmer]

That's a Wenzloff and Sons Half Back Saw. Mine is from a kit, but he(they) also sell them complete and ready to use.

And if you're gonna only get one, get the best. My two favorite saws are a late 19th early 20th century Disston 12 (not the newer D12) and a similar period Disston 112.

Pre WWI Disstons are still fairly easy to find and the handles on those were made for folks using them all day long. As time went on, the handles got boxier and less comfortable. The older ones also had taper ground blades which require less set in the teeth.

[Alan DuBoff]

I don't subscribe to the theory that apple handled saws are always better. I have a couple beech handle saws, even the boxy ones, that are great saws and cut well, because they're sharp.

Many folks have taken a rasp to a boxy beech handled saw and turned it into a wonderful tool. Don't discount them because of the wood. It was primarily the shape, not the wood.

In the same vein, I once gave a 5 1/4 newer purple colored Stanley plane to Mike Wenzloff. Must be a couple years ago at least by now. Anyway, Mike took a rasp to the handle, applied some finish to it, filed out the mouth a bit, and cambered the blade. He uses it for his scrub plane. Most folks would have thought that it was just a crappy, newer Stanley plane (it was). Mike turned it into a useful tool that he can use in his shop. Food for thought.

I also own a Disston 10" saw (http://www.softorchestra.com/woodworking/tools/saws/handsaws/disston10a/index.html) I bought from Jerry Palmer. He had redone the handle and shellac'd it, it feels wonderful. It was one of the first Disston saws I had bought. Teeth were filed a long time ago by Jerry, and 12 points, but it's sharp. I'm going to turn it into crosscut.

EDIT: the clock on SMC appears to be off by about 30 minutes, not sure why.???

[Mike Wenzloff]

...In the same vein, I once gave a 5 1/4 newer purple colored Stanley plane to Mike Wenzloff. Must be a couple years ago at least by now. Anyway, Mike took a rasp to the handle, applied some finish to it, filed out the mouth a bit, and cambered the blade. He uses it for his scrub plane. Most folks would have thought that it was just a crappy, newer Stanley plane (it was). Mike turned it into a useful tool that he can use in his shop. Food for thought.
...
Yep, it makes for a great scrub. No before pictures, but the tote is no longer the square thing it was:

http://wenzloffandsons.com/scrub/scrub_0005.jpg

The main point here is that even saws with less than ideal handles can be made comfy for use by either reshaping the handle:

http://wenzloffandsons.com/temp/tenon_saws_0001b.jpg

Or making a new handle altogether:

http://wenzloffandsons.com/temp/handsaw_handle/handle_0006.jpg

Take care, Mike

[Jerry Palmer]

I think more than the wood itself, Disston went to Beech handles on some here-to-fore apple handled saw models about the time they also began getting a bit chincey on the work done on the handles themselves. The carving got less skillfully done, and the handles were left more boxey.

[Mike Wenzloff]

And do remember, Disston et al began their businesses with using Beech as the handle wood of choice. Apple came a little later, Mahogany and Rosewood were the "premium" and less used woods. Cherry was also used on some saws.

Beech is a great handle wood, superior to Apple in strength. This may be why nearly every Disston #70 I have seen, which came with an open handle of Apple, is busted at the bottom of the handle, verses horn damage. I've only seen pictures of a few this had not happened to. But Apple is a lovely wood, far "warmer" than the way Beech was used. More natural in finish where the Beech was almost always heavily stained.

The use of Apple by Disston became nearly a trademark, associated with the quality that made Disston arguably the largest handsaw maker in the world by the end of the 20th century.

Take care, Mike
back to correspondance...

[Tim Leo]

I don't think you can go wrong with an Atkins Saw either. Lots of people like Disston, but I think Atkins had a superior product.

[James Mittlefehldt]

And do remember, Disston et al began their businesses with using Beech as the handle wood of choice. Apple came a little later, Mahogany and Rosewood were the "premium" and less used woods. Cherry was also used on some saws.

Beech is a great handle wood, superior to Apple in strength. This may be why nearly every Disston #70 I have seen, which came with an open handle of Apple, is busted at the bottom of the handle, verses horn damage. I've only seen pictures of a few this had not happened to. But Apple is a lovely wood, far "warmer" than the way Beech was used. More natural in finish where the Beech was almost always heavily stained.

The use of Apple by Disston became nearly a trademark, associated with the quality that made Disston arguably the largest handsaw maker in the world by the end of the 20th century.

Take care, Mike
back to correspondance...

Just out of curiosity what did other manufacturors use for their saw handles, Apple beech all of the above?

I wonder to if those old handles feel so much better because they were used quite a bit, and worn smooth over the years, just a thought.

[Mike Wenzloff]

Hi James, yep, several used Apple, Beech, Cherry, Walnut, etc.

The middle saw is a George Bishop 5 or so ppi cross cut, virtually unused when I got it. Apple handle. All the more rare in that this 28" was originally a cross cut even though it is a thumb hole model.

http://wenzloffandsons.com/temp/lg_handsaws.jpg

The top one, a Richardson, also is Apple.

Take care, Mike

[Alan DuBoff]

I don't think you can go wrong with an Atkins Saw either. Lots of people like Disston, but I think Atkins had a superior product.I don't think Mike was implying that Disston was superior, but Disston certainly made good quality saws.

I personally prefer the non-Disston saws, mostly for their uniqueness. Everyone and their brother has a Disston. I really like the Harvey Peace saws. I have a couple Atkins saws, and they're good also. Disston saws typically bring the best $$$s on ebay though, it's become a household word.

Some of the coolest are the older English saws, and there are many good examples of saws that are 200 years old, still intact today. These saws were made before Disston even started to make saws.

Disston really put the squeeze on the U.S. saw makers, in the sense that he was one of the few to be able to produce his own steel. Many of the others had to buy from the Brits. Disston was to the late 1800s and early 1900s what Gates is to the computer industry today, from my perspective. Disston bought most companies up that were of any value and either rolled them into his own line or just put them out of business. Many Disston afficianados don't like this view I have though, and that's ok, we're all entitled to our own.:p

I have several fine Disston saws, and do believe they were good, solid saws. I just don't buy into Disston being such an innovator, he innovated very little on what had been done before him, but learned how to bring the costs down, manufacture all the pieces himself (i.e., even the spring steel), and continued to figure out how to mass produce a cheaper saw to offer better value to the user. Eventually they were bought out, and now produce complete junk. And the power tool industry left Disston scrambling, trying to figure out how to continue marketing and selling saws. Disston was an innovator as far as mass production went, but that meant nothing in regards to quality. The handles on his saws were yet a fine example of that, and the boxier machine routed handles are less preferred today.

This allows folks like Wenzloff & Sons, LN, Adria, Norse Woodsmith, Hoff, et al, to produce saws that craftsmen will pay a decent price for today. Much of that credit is owed to Pete Taran, IMO, who saw an opportunity (pun???;-) and innovated on it to produce a good, quality tool just as Disston once did.

Do you know that Disston's son, Hamilton, was the largest land owner in American after a 4,000,000 acre purchase in Florida in 1881. He purcased the land for $0.25/acre. Unfortunately there were various problems, and he ended up loosing it due to debt.

Who would have thought that hand saws could have reaped that type of reward? Henry Disston was not a small thinker, by any means, but the sons didn't seem to have the same vision that Henry did, IMO. He was one of the most amazing businessmen, to this day. Very much the same as Gates is now.

[James Mittlefehldt]

I don't think Mike was implying that Disston was superior, but Disston certainly made good quality saws.

I personally prefer the non-Disston saws, mostly for their uniqueness. Everyone and their brother has a Disston. I really like the Harvey Peace saws. I have a couple Atkins saws, and they're good also. Disston saws typically bring the best $$$s on ebay though, it's become a household word.

Some of the coolest are the older English saws, and there are many good examples of saws that are 200 years old, still intact today. These saws were made before Disston even started to make saws.

Disston really put the squeeze on the U.S. saw makers, in the sense that he was one of the few to be able to produce his own steel. Many of the others had to buy from the Brits. Disston was to the late 1800s and early 1900s what Gates is to the computer industry today

He did the same thing to Canadian saw makers as well, though they were I think purchased by Atkins.

I agree about finding the minority saw makers though Allan, I have taken quite a fancy to the products of R. H. Smith of St. Catharines, and Shurley & Dietrich of Galt, now Cambridge Ontario. The stuff I have faound has been of excellent quality and does the job it was intended for.

[Jerry Palmer]

Disston basically practiced business as it was done in those days. A lot of the companies he bought were to obtain rights to one or another patent the competitor had come up with. No different from Stanley and the other big tool manufacturers of the time.

[Alan DuBoff]

Disston basically practiced business as it was done in those days. A lot of the companies he bought were to obtain rights to one or another patent the competitor had come up with. No different from Stanley and the other big tool manufacturers of the time.Jerry,

I absolutely agree, just like the Rockefellers, ATTs, and Microsofts did in their time. Nothing wrong with being good at business, and I don't know many folks that wouldn't do the same thing being put in their shoes.;) Much of it is being at the right place at the right time.

The only good Disston saws today are used.:eek:

[Jerry Palmer]

Much of it is being at the right place at the right time.

Yep, sorta like Google and YouTube. Man, that's a lot of bucks!