Is Woodworking "Not for everyone?"

[John Hulett]

Lately, I've been on a woodworking emotional rollercoaster. I've really been frustrated with a project I've been working on for corner shelves. In fact, the last time I had a problem, I posed this about glue (http://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=39948). This post also references the first pass at this project - on which I didn't have nearly the kind of problems I've had this time.

I had a couple more panels to glue up to replace the ones the glue dried too quickly on. I re-realized I'm having a really hard time acheiveing a flat panel. :( At 14-15 inches, they're too big to go through my planer, and I can't seem to get good results from the LN No. 4 I have. :( So I wait a couple of weeks and take another pass.

Taking the advice on the glue post, I bought some Weldwood and attempted a glue-up yesterday. I'm still getting gaps in the middle of the shelf, using virtually every clamp I own, including two strap clamps. Additionally, when I put the Weldwood on the end-grain, the poplar seemed to soak it up like a sponge.:(

I was very inspired by Mark's therapy post (http://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=43315) but I'm begining to think that, as much as I like getting out there and working with my hands (I'm a systems guy by trade), maybe woodworking is just not the right hobby for me.

I've played guitar since highschool. My best friend back then really, really wanted to play too. He had a nice guitar and amp, and tried and tried and tried. Unfortunately, he didn't have the rythem or dexterity to play well. Eventually he gave it up. He just wasn't mean to play guitar, despite really wanting to.

Perhaps the same may be true for me and woodworking. I sometimes find that I may not be detail oriented enough, or simply lack the "natural" skills necessary to do what I envision on a project.

So my question is this; is woodworking just not for everyone?:confused:

- John

[Doug Jones]

So my question is this; is woodworking just not for everyone?:confused:

- John
Simply put,,, no its not.

[Andy Hoyt]

Try the turning aspect of woodworking John.

I like it because (among other things) there are no "in betweens". It either explodes or succeeds.

[Jim Hinze]

So my question is this; is woodworking just not for everyone?:confused:
- John

John,

I read your post and I have been at the point you are now... where nothing seems to go right, fit right, don't know how to fix it because you lack experience and knowledge...

I'm a systems guy as well... In my past, I've been known as the least mechanically inclined in my family.. heck there was a point I couldn't even assemble sauder furniture following directions... However, I kept at it, joined a local club, got some 1-on-1 instruction and now I'm mediocre... meaning I can make a particular piece and make it passable.

I can tell you, if you don't give up... keep practicing, the skills will come.

Like all good computer geeks, if you want to learn a thing, read about it... then do it until you get it right. There are awesome resources out there. Find a local club... take a class or two (woodcraft has some great classes).

[Tyler Howell]

Hey John!
I can relate.
As far as gaps are concerned it is the jointing and not the glue or clamps. Either tools need tuning or technique needs work. Can your saw cut a gluable joint:confused: If you really have to muscle a joint to get it to close it will never hold. A #4 is a smoother How about a #5 to flatten it??

I would agree it is not for everyone. Maybe you haven't found your pile of saw dust yet.
At a real low spot in WW creativity and progress, I took a neander course. I can't believe the difference it made in my attitude (not necessarily my skill level). I approached the project with new eyes. Paid a lot of attention to the tools and there set up, then went through and cleaned the whole shop. Made a big difference not to mention I found some tools I was looking for.
I was was at a David Marks seminar and just hanging out with other WW was a real boost.
Post some of your work, get some help. Don't force it. Put it away for a while and see what happens
This is suppose to be fun.;)

[Stu Ablett in Tokyo Japan]

Try the turning aspect of woodworking John.

I like it because (among other things) there are no "in betweens". It either explodes or succeeds.

How true, how true.... :D

Of course WW is not for everyone, if it was, there would be no other hobbies...........(there are other hobbies............right..?).

The thing is, you have to want to do it. A long time ago, I started to train in Aikido, a martial art, I like it very much, but I sucked at it, but I kept at it, and I eventually moved to Japan to learn more (looooooong story that).

Was I as good as the guys who had boat loads on natural talent, no, would I ever be as good as those guy, most likely not, but it was not a competition. Just like WW, it is not a competition, it is a hobby, so what if you cannot make a flat panel, try some other aspect of WW and find one you like. Some guys are really good with hand tools, some are not, some are brilliant with finishing, I SUCK :o

We do this for ourselves, you have to find something about it that you like and that you can improve at.

I guess the long and the short of it is, are you enjoying yourself (forget the recent panel thing) if the answer is "Yes" keep at it, it will come, if the answer is "No" well, then I suggest you find something else to do.

Sometimes a change is as good as a rest, try something else for a while.

Hope this helps.

Cheers!

[Larry Fox]

I think Stu hits it dead on. I am a software guy and so (by extension) I can appreciate the frustration you go through on a regular basis at work. Who needs that at home when you should be relaxing. We have all had projects that just won't seem to end (currently working on one myself) or nothing seems to go right but if there is not even a glimmer of joy or relaxation in you even during those trying times then it just might not be the hobby for you. It may even turn out to be an unsafe one if you push things or let your anger and frustration get the best of you - only takes a split second loss of focus.

Stu's suggestion of taking a rest is also a good one - allows you to reconnect with what got you into it in the first place. If after a month you don't miss it, then perhaps it is not for you.

BTW: I am in the same boat as your friend. I love music and have tried to play on numerous ocassions and just seem genetically incapable of getting it. Same goes for foreign languages. :(

[Alan DuBoff]

So my question is this; is woodworking just not for everyone?:confused:I feel it's only for the ones that stick with it.

If for some reason you or anyone decides this craft was not for them, it must not have been!;)

[Scott Loven]

Have you tried taking a class, read a few good books, watched a DVD or video? Any woodworkers in the area that you could visit with? Ive gained most of my woodworking knowledge from reading magazines. What has your woodworking experience been up to now, and what tools do you have? I think you can learn it if you want to. I would be glad to help you out if there was any way that I could.
Scott

[Jesse Cloud]

Hey John,
I've been there - things screw up that shouldn't or just everything in general screws up. And I'll probably be there again. In the old systems days I would look for a root cause, probably a poorly understood requirement or a bad assumption that grows worse as code is built around it.

My woodworking has gotten a lot better over the years, but I still make mistakes, and I don't know anyone who doesn't.

Here's a few rules of thumb I use to try to stay out of trouble:
- Don't try too many new things in one project, one new technique mastered is reward enough.
- Focus on the work. Turn off the radio. Don't think about what else you have to do. Get everything that isn't related to this little task out of the way. If you can't do that, put it down and come back when you can.
- Learn what matters and what doesn't. Your square has to be absolutely dead on. Put it on something straight, draw a line, flip it over, draw the line again. If you see two lines anywhere or the line starts to get thick, take the square back and get another one. I had to do this 3 times. Big squares aren't. You have pretty good odds with a 3 or 4 inch machinist square, but when you go to 6 inches or a foot - gooood luck.
Get the best 6 inch ruler you can find - it needs to have separate scales for 1/8, 1/6, 1/32, and 1/64. Your milling equipment - tablesaw, jointer, planer - needs to be dead accurate, if its not, keep trying until it is.
Things that are not important in most cases - brand of glue - they are all good; brand of sawblade (as long as you are using the right type for the job); getting a 'good deal' on a tool (you will probably pay later).
- Take a class. Not the short class at the local tool seller where they set everything up for you. I took a class at the local community college and was dumbfounded: I was doing almost everything the hard way and leaving myself open for errors. Before the class, I thought I knew what I was doing...

I hope this helps. Go for some small satisfying victories. If its still not fun a year from now, try something else.

Hope I haven't offended anyone too badly. I know some great woodworkers who do things differently, but this works for me, who like John, is not a natural at this.

[Richard Wolf]

John, it makes me sad to read your post. You seem to have the desire and vision to work with wood but lack the skills.
I don't know what your back ground with tools is, but I suspect it is lacking. Part of the problem is the school systems today, which were most likely in transistion when you were in school, but that doesn't help you now.
I find most new woodworkers, or even in other hobbies, are way to ambitious and set themselves up for failure. Pick smaller projects to get instant gradification. Break larger projects into smaller ones. One of the most important things you can do, is start with quality materials too. You are setting yourself up if you are not using straight boards to begin with. Processing materials, making lumber straight and square, is sometimes the toughest part of woodworking and mediocre results leads to mediocre projects which will be disappointing to you.
Find some help, even the grumpyest old woodworker will most likely offer his assistance to help a fellow woodman.

Richard

[Robert Mayer]

I dont think the hobby can be for everyone. Its takes an extremely high amount of patience to do this hobby. With that said, i get frustrated at some point on every thing I build. You just have to hang in there. I find it really helps to get in contact with a local guy that knows a lot!

[Joe Jensen]

John, it sounds like you are embarking on the hand tools approach to woodworking. I've been an avid machine approach to woodworking for 30 years. I've dabled in hand tools a little, and man is that frustrating. I can imagine a day (when I'm retired) where I will learn and master hand tools, but for now I'm too impatient.

To get nice flat glueups, each piece needs to be flat (no twist per winding sticks) and the edges need to be flat (checked with a straight edge), and the edges need to be a perfect 90 degrees to the sides (check with a square). Doing all three with hand tools has eluded me thus far. I will say that when I got my own planer, and switched to only buying rough sawn wood, the quality of my work improved, and it was easier to get flat panels. I was 14 when I started this hobby. My father and I would have local wood sawn, we would air dry for a couple of years, and then we had an old giant planer to surface it. I still don't know why, but my father would plane each board until it was smooth, but he didn't surface the wood to a uniform thickness. Plus, the old planer ran on a 30HP gas engine that was really hard to start, and the planer wasn't well adjusted and some adjustments were rusted frozen. (heck, he got a 5000 lb planer from a farmer for $100). Anyway, back then we would find boards that were about the same thickness for glueups, and then we used belt sanders to smooth them out (this really sucked as it took a long time and the results were not great).

[Bob Childress]

I guess the long and the short of it is, are you enjoying yourself (forget the recent panel thing) if the answer is "Yes" keep at it, it will come, if the answer is "No" well, then I suggest you find something else to do.

It can't be any plainer than that. And so true. If I had a nickel for every cock-up I made on a project, I could hire someone else to do it. :D

Some of us are process-oriented (patient, methodical, and enjoy the act of building) while others of us are result-oriented (derive our greatest enjoyment from the finished project). I'm one of the latter and that leads to more mistakes than the first group makes. But I enjoy it, so I keep doing it and keep learning. If you're not having any fun, if it's not relaxing, do someting else. But if you enjoy it and are just tired of the frustration, take the time to read a book, take a class, heck, watch NYW re-runs.

We all have limitations in WW (well, with some notable exceptions on this forum) but our goal is to slowly but surely extend our talents and get some satisfaction in the process.

I admit that my approach to WW is simple-minded: I study, observe, try, fail; study, observe, try, fail; study, observe, try and succeed or not. The third time I fail, I simply agree with myself that that technique is not for me and look for alternatives (usually involving buying a new tool :) ).

WW may not be for everyone--but there is a place in WW for everyone who enjoys it. Best of luck.

[Nissim Avrahami]

Hi John

When I was in the army (very long time ago) we were saying: There is no ‘I can not’, there is ‘I don’t want’.

I’m an amateur like you and I’m shy to tell, but my first coffee table was glued with CA (yes, Supper glue) but NOT Mortise & Tenon or kind of. The legs glued to the table apron face to face, without any mechanical connection (even not screws), and to make it “stronger”, I glued the table top to the apron. That much I knew about WW.

Please don’t be discouraged by one or two failures, I believe that it happened to everybody including me, don’t give up, check where you did wrong and correct it.

My hand working skills are very close to zero, so I made jigs and fixtures for the electric tools, to make the work for me.

About your gluing problem please have a look at this post to see my method, it never failed for me.
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=37335

I’m using the Polyurethane glue with 30 minutes open time.

Oh yes, I made the mentioned above coffee table 12 years ago in Japan and left it to a friend (he wanted it), 4 months ago I visited him. The table is still in one piece to my surprise…

Regards
niki

[Stu Ablett in Tokyo Japan]

.................... I love music and have tried to play on numerous occasions and just seem genetically incapable of getting it.............

I tired the guitar at one point too, but I was also playing offensive line in football, and it is hard to learn the guitar when you constantly have busted and or sprained fingers (Hey that is my excuse and I'm sticking to it!!:D )

[David Giles]

...as much as I like getting out there and working with my hands (I'm a systems guy by trade)...
If you like working with your hands, this is a great hobby. One of the benefits to learning WW over the last three years is how it has changed my attitude. Like yourself, I spent most of my work hours in an office environment and just plain got sick and tired of computers. Reading got old and I wanted to do build something with my hands. Unfortunately, I have no three dimensional mental perception, can't see curves and expected to do perfect work the first time. Over time, WW has changed me. I've learned to enjoy the work that I do without comparison to others. No longer will I stress over how long it takes to do a project. And I've learned to control my language at the inevitable cuts and scrapes.

So while we set out to make something, the disciplines of WW start to remake us. The new disciplines are not easy to learn, but they are rewarding in the end.

Stick with it. You'll do well.

I feel the same way as you when trying to learn Sketchup (and I paid for the dern program!).

[Mike Armstrong]

It may or may not be for you. Even if you decide it is, satisfaction with your work won't come to you without a thorough basic knowledge and then lots of experience. I don't know what your woodworking experience is or how long you've been at it. I first learned it from my dad 50+ yrs. ago and did it part time until retirement about 5 yrs. ago. I thought I had the basic skills. Then, fortunately, I fell into the largest woodworking program in the country, near me in the San Diego area. Then I truly found out what a lack of in-depth knowledge I had. You can read magazines, books, watch DVDs, etc. and it still won't advance your skills at guitar playing or woodworking like taking guitar lessons or woodworking classes will. It's easy to fall for the marketing that's done to sell us the perfect tool/product/gizmo for a particular job, for the perfect result. Funny how so much exquisite work was done hundreds of years ago with none of that.

To reiterate some of the above advice, before you make a decision, explore the resources of local community colleges and woodworking clubs/groups to find out what help is available. I know some of them have mentoring programs. As an example, I thought I knew something about finishing until I took a semester long course in it. And even after that, just recently went to a 2-1/2 day seminar by Bob Flexner and learned probably an equal number of new things again. It'll never be as simple and reading and following the directions, whether it's in a book of on a label.

[Richard Blaine]

I've played guitar since highschool. My best friend back then really, really wanted to play too. He had a nice guitar and amp, and tried and tried and tried. Unfortunately, he didn't have the rythem or dexterity to play well. Eventually he gave it up. He just wasn't mean to play guitar, despite really wanting to.
- John

That story pretty much sums up my natural musical ability. That is up to the point at which he gave up.

I took piano and guitar lessons in grammar school, and I dreamed of being a performer. The problem is that I could only get so good, and that wasn't even close to performance quality.

Every so often, I'd just quit and say I don't need the frustation, but I always came back because I needed to play.

In the end, I realized that I'd never be a performer, but I could be happy if I accepted my mediocrity. I've enjoyed playing little ditties for the kids or playing while my wife sings.

Perhaps, you'll never be a great woodworker, but that doesn't mean you can't enjoy this hobby within your abilities. Like Stu said, "...are you enjoying yourself...?" because that's all that matters in a hobby.

[Geoff Barry]

I think part of the problem may be when moving from a non-"hands on" world to woodworking. I (and several of my coworkers) have been making that move over the last year or two (we're lawyers). The problem we've had is unrealistic expectations. I look at a piece of furniture, a Stickley bookcase, for example. I can see how it goes together. I can picture the joints and the relationships of the parts in my head. Then I go to build it, and it all falls apart. Actually building something takes a) patience, and b) manual skill. However, I have small children, and have to work outside, so I'm always rushed. Then I plane the wood too thin, or let the board move away from the fence at the tail end of the cut, or calulate measurements in my head and don't allow for the tenon, or expect a 3/4" bit to make a dado that a 3/4" board can fit into, or don't allow enough time to get the glue-up together, etc. And don't get me started on neander tools and skill.

It's like any skill -- it takes a lot of repetition to develop the necessary "feel". Some people will "get it" faster than others, but no-one jumps into it able to build masterpieces using only a hammer, duct tape, and a bottle of paste. It seems like it should be easy, but because one has to deal with the imprecision and uncertainty of handwork, it isn't. If we all had a magic machine that would spit out perfectly sized and shaped pieces of wood on demand, we all could build impressive furniture. But then, it would be less of a skilled past-time, and a lot less fun. It's like sports - part of the pleasure should be developing the hands-on skill. If knowing the names of joint locks and chokes was all that was needed, the ufc (mixed martial arts, for those of you over 30 . . . :D ) would be dominated by keyboard warriors. Applying them in full-speed, live-action, is a whole different animal.

But that is a long-winded way of agreeing with many of the above posters -- developing skill is a long journey. If the journey is enjoyable to you, wood-working is a great hobby. If not being able to turn out heirloom pieces right out of the gate is a showstopper, then woodworking probably will not bring you much pleasure. There's nothing wrong with the latter person - it's merely an issue of personality and matching one's personality to one's hobbies.

[Mike Leigh]

John,
I feel your pain.
Being a complete newbie at woodworking I decided that I'm in my 'primative' stage of the game. I have much to learn, and at my age, 60, it's hard.
But I've found by just plugging away, and doing the stuff that I really have interest in, I'm doing ok.
I started out a couple years ago, doing small balsam wood projects, facades, birdhouses and lighthouses and etc. I was fun, and I was setting at a desk all the time and working with thin balsam slats or basswood.
What really got me started in woodworking was that my wife of 35 years asked me to make some simple patio planters, and using butt joints, and 1" pine I did pretty good, and from then on I just starting to make what pleased me and/or what the kids or wife wanted, needed, or suggested that they could use.
No one but yourself should be critical of what you do. No one has the right, other than youself, to tell you that you are doing a lousy job, you need only to feel that it's best you can do, and it will make you a lot happier.
I'm still doing the simple stuff, bookcases, nightstands, small tables, plant stands and etc.
I'm learning each time I do something. And the best part is that I'm not all that souped up with power equipment, no router, no table saw, no electric planer. I just go my merry way, doing what I can with simple tools I have, a skill saw, a hand drill, and I make all my dovetails and joints by hack saw and chisel. It takes practice, a lot of practice, and they don't always come out looking really great, and I've never yet been able to stand back and say to myself that this is as good as Norm (NYWS).
But I have learned one very important thing, and that is that you need a great deal of patience. And I'm the last one in the world with an abundance of that. I usually have the attention span of a gnat, and never was one to pay attention to detail. But, it's fun, and it's relaxing, and it does teach you patience, if you give it a chance.
So, stick with it.....

[russ bransford]

John,
I agree with the advice of taking a break. One of the things you take a look at is your methods of work. This would involve practice with the tools and joints. We practice our music and our sports but we think we have this innate ability to work with wood. We jump right in. The challenge of woodworking turns to frustration. Make a little sawdust just to make sawdust.
Russ

[Corey Hallagan]

Woodworking is not for everyone but I believe if you have the passion that you can learn a level of satisfaction that makes YOU happy. Your first project looked great to me and I am sure with some patience you can make another just fine. Woodworking does not have to be making huge projects like hutches and furniture but can be small and simple such as boxes, frames, scroll work, wood turning etc.

For the most part if you have a decent table saw that is set up properly ( and I don't mean a fancy cabinet saw) you should be able to get a glue line rip that will allow you to glue up panels just fine by themselves. might be just something simple as just to much pressure on the glue up etc. Give it another try and take your time and have FUN! Take some photos if you run into a problem and post them here. Lots of folks here to help you out when you get in trouble!

Good luck.
Corey

[Robert Trotter]

Hi John, you have a lot of good advice concerning either taking a break or taking a course to bring up your skills to a level you are happy with. So I won't add to these.

But how about going about what you want to make in a little different way. I don't know what you are makng but checked out your corner shelves for the babies room (?) You painted it and it looks nice.

I sounds like you want to give ww a go, but are getting frustrated at not being able to get it done. How about trying to simplify your work. for example with the corner shelf you already made instead of starting scratch and jointing boards to glue up and make your selves why not skip the jointing. Go to the harware store or where ever and get some "premade" shelf material. I'm sure you can get solid timber laminated sheet or ply or lumber core and then use that for your shelves (example). So now you have the shelves material and you can practice the construction of the piece you are making. i.e. dados and mitres (joints) and assembly and some finish planing if your want to go the neandre way or sanding and final finish. You will have a project completed, would have practiced your assembly and organization etc. etc. Just skipped the jointing. Once you have a few of these eaier projects try again later to do the jointing.

Probably do a course but if you can't just get yor scarps together and while building your simplified projects set aside a few minutes to joint some boards as practice. Rip them again and next time try jointing again etc. etc.

good luck.

[John Hulett]

Have you tried taking a class, read a few good books, watched a DVD or video?

I took a basic class through Riverside Community College - sort of an extension. It was okay, though not great. I've considered taking the second level but given the choice between spending $300 on a class vs. materials, I've been siding with materials. Perhaps I should reconsider

I know there's a woodworking association for the Inland Empire - I should try to go to the November meeting.

I've subscribed to PW (still active) and WJ... they're okay, it seems. I've recorded and watched all 91 episodes of Woodworks and are still stored on my Tivo. I watch them from time to time. I record NYW too, but the Tivo doesn't seem to pick up many new (to me) episodes, as of late.


What has your woodworking experience been up to now, and what tools do you have?

I took Woodworking for a semester of my sophmore year of HS, and just started it up here about 2-years ago.

I've got the basic machines; 6" jointer, 13" planer, TS, BS, CMS, router, biscuit jointer, CS, JS... most everything I really need for most situations. I had been considering one of those open-ended drum sanders, but I feel like I would just be throwing money at the problem - money I don't really have to spare (see class vs. materials above).


... are you enjoying yourself...?

Yes and no - that's where the roller coaster part comes in. Last week I spent a couple hours on Saturday milling the stock and gluing up the panels for the 15" wide shelf. I FELT GREAT! When I came inside to watch the kids, I was in the best mood I'd been in in some time. But the next day I took the panels out of the clams and realized they were not all that flat. I've since seen examples of cauls being used for simiar glue-ups, so time rest-time may be what I need again.

There's no reason (in retrospect) that WW'ing is any different from my playing the guitar. Guitar took practice - and a lot of it - to be okay at it. I've performed, but never to the level of where I could only dream of playing (SRV anyone?). That practice will take time, and that's as much of my frustration as anything else - time. With two small children and a stay-at-home-mom wife, she would prefer that I spend more of that time with the kids (so she can "have a break from her job") and/or with her (needing to communicate to someone who's vocabulary is beyond the phrase, "I don't want to.") and just in general wanting to get out of the house.

I want to thank everyone who has responded to this thread. I had not expected such a large response. But the content of those responses were pretty much what I needed - and secretly knew I would get.

- John

[Al Willits]

I'll try to be short, more advice is probably not what ya need...:)

Lets try this, can most people play the guitar?
Yup, but most can't play it like Clapton, Segovia, Clark or any of the major players, do they give up?
Ya some do, some just keep playing at whatever level they can, and enjoy doing it.

Take a step back and remember this is a hobby, your life doesn't depend on it and just take a deep breath and look into why the dam wood ain't doing what its suppose to.

Couple of boards ain't gonna break ya, and eventually you'll get it right...trust me, I've had more than my share of problems in the short while I've discovered wood.

I just call the wood a bunch of dirty names, and try again....keep it fun.
Even if it PO's ya off..

God put women on this earth to make us miserable, and hobbies to help forget how miserable we are....

Al.....just kidding about the women....kinda...:D

[Alan Turner]

Practice, i.e. bench time, cannot be underestimated as a way to develop skills. Perhaps some bench time could fit into your schedule. When I tackle a dovetail project, I still go to the bench to warm up my handsaw skills, and I have cut a slew of dovetails over the years. The bench time is also woodworking, even if a project is not the immediate result.

Just a thought. Remerber, enjoyable woodworking is a process.

[Mark Singer]

John,
Since you are pretty close by I would not mind showing you my techniques for joining and preparing panels for tops etc in my shop. Right now I am in Quebec and then I go to Toronto...then home on the 14th. Call or email me and I will try to get you out of the rut, Woodworking is often repeating skills that you aquire and the important thing is to learn them in the first place. Joining boards, flatening, preparing stock and some basic joinery are key skills that open the door to lots of projects....then more skills can be added...the key is to get started.

[Gary Herrmann]

John, wwing may not be for everyone. However, if you're passionate about it, you'll keep at it. It may be years before you get to the level of skill you want to attain. I fully expect the same thing to be true for me.

There is a lot to this hobby. Design, planning, sequencing, hiding your mistakes, finishing the list goes on and on.

Every project I've had so far, I've made a mistake. I made one today. Somehow I messed up a center mark, and one of the pulls on the drawers was off by an inch. Its a shop cabinet so I thought I'd leave it as a reminder. My wife said "Fix it. Every time someone comes down here who knows nothing about this will say thats off." So I fixed it.

I do believe that to a point, wwing is like anything else you learn. Remember the first time you tried to drive a stick? I really enjoy woodworking. I read about it, I think about it, and sometimes I even get time to do it. Some day I'll have a project where I didn't make a mistake.

The others are right. Your corner shelves do look good. Give yourself a break. Do something that isn't project related. Experiment with finishes on a piece of scrap. Practice planing or sharpening. Read. Or do something totally non wwing related.

Ultimately, only you can tell you what is right for you.

Oh and one other thing - how many people do you know that you wouldn't trust to rake your yard or change a lightbulb in your house. There are degrees to everything.

[Joe Jensen]

I've got the basic machines; 6" jointer, 13" planer, TS, BS, CMS, router, biscuit jointer, CS, JS... most everything I really need for most situations. I had been considering one of those open-ended drum sanders, but I feel like I would just be throwing money at the problem - money I don't really have to spare (see class vs. materials above).
- John

John, it sounds like you have the right basic set of tools. Can you explain how you are preparing the wood for glue-up? It sounds like the edges are not flat and square...joe

[David Rose]

It is hard for me to believe that most of you guys make one or fewer mistakes on each project! Maybe I shouldn't say "hard to believe". I do believe you. It is more like, I can't imagine only one misteak per project! Unless you are calling each board/stick going into the main work a "project". :D That I can imagine. That is closer to my level. A good friend once told me that the difference between a pro and an amateur (at many jobs) is that the pro knows how to quickly and efficiently hide his mistakes.

I have to often tell myself that this hobby is just that for me. I don't have to be fast. Ask those who have seen my work. I can spend months or more :eek: on a simple blanket chest. I hate worse than anything scrapping a piece after I have carefully chosen all the boards and laid them out. I spend hours sometimes cleaning up my mistakes which probably a better worker would just scrap. But for me, this is a hobby. There. I told myself again. Sometimes I just go out and cut and face a few boards for whatever the current project is.

Sometimes I take a break from the big project and make... a flag case for the MIL, a simple pine chest for the daughter, a blanket stand for the MIL, a simple spice bottle shelf for the LOML, then I'll throw in a 2x4 stand for a sander, or a candle stand for the daughter... and on and on. I don't get a lot of satisfaction from the little jobs, but they help me at least complete something.

I am not good at all at design. I can modify someone else's plans to fit my needs. I am not efficient at many of the processes, though I enjoy most of them after a couple of tries or more. I find first time operations normally somewhat (or worse) frustrating. I do enjoy learning, when I finally start to "get it". I do enjoy trying to determine what boards should go where... most of the time. I fuss even with that for some time, usually.

I have been frustrated by almost every process at different times. That is why I found the creek. The support is so great here that I have to keep trying. I do see improvement, sometimes very slowly and not necessarily in increments in that direction. :o

I find tools fun to work, when I can learn to use them. Both power and hand tools can be fun and frustrating. But this is a hobby for me.

Again, I took piano lessons for two years, saxaphone for 5 years (school), an intense year of voice type music, played with a guitar for two years. After a few years lapse, I can't play a simple scale on the sax and don't remember "G/C/A" on the guitar. I don't miss it at all. It was not fun most of the time for me, and consequently I was never good at any of them.

Things are very busy for us this time of year at our house. I have probably worked 10 hours in the past two months on the "invisible" blanket chest. Woodworking is still my main hobby, but it doesn't show much. But that's OK. This is my hobby. :)

David

[Joe Jensen]

It is hard for me to believe that most of you guys make one or fewer mistakes on each project! Maybe I shouldn't say "hard to believe". I do believe you. It is more like, I can't imagine only one misteak per project! Unless you are calling each board/stick going into the main work a "project". :D That I can imagine. That is closer to my level. A good friend once told me that the difference between a pro and an amateur (at many jobs) is that the pro knows how to quickly and efficiently hide his mistakes.

I have to often tell myself that this hobby is just that for me. I don't have to be fast. Ask those who have seen my work. I can spend months or more :eek: on a simple blanket chest. I hate worse than anything scrapping a piece after I have carefully chosen all the boards and laid them out. I spend hours sometimes cleaning up my mistakes which probably a better worker would just scrap. But for me, this is a hobby. There. I told myself again. Sometimes I just go out and cut and face a few boards for whatever the current project is.

Sometimes I take a break from the big project and make... a flag case for the MIL, a simple pine chest for the daughter, a blanket stand for the MIL, a simple spice bottle shelf for the LOML, then I'll throw in a 2x4 stand for a sander, or a candle stand for the daughter... and on and on. I don't get a lot of satisfaction from the little jobs, but they help me at least complete something.

I am not good at all at design. I can modify someone else's plans to fit my needs. I am not efficient at many of the processes, though I enjoy most of them after a couple of tries or more. I find first time operations normally somewhat (or worse) frustrating. I do enjoy learning, when I finally start to "get it". I do enjoy trying to determine what boards should go where... most of the time. I fuss even with that for some time, usually.

I have been frustrated by almost every process at different times. That is why I found the creek. The support is so great here that I have to keep trying. I do see improvement, sometimes very slowly and not necessarily in increments in that direction. :o

I find tools fun to work, when I can learn to use them. Both power and hand tools can be fun and frustrating. But this is a hobby for me.

Again, I took piano lessons for two years, saxaphone for 5 years (school), an intense year of voice type music, played with a guitar for two years. After a few years lapse, I can't play a simple scale on the sax and don't remember "G/C/A" on the guitar. I don't miss it at all. It was not fun most of the time for me, and consequently I was never good at any of them.

Things are very busy for us this time of year at our house. I have probably worked 10 hours in the past two months on the "invisible" blanket chest. Woodworking is still my main hobby, but it doesn't show much. But that's OK. This is my hobby. :)

David

David, I disagree. I think the next level of the "Art" is recovering from mistakes. I built an a bedroom suite that is intended to last many generations. Probably a couple thousand hours. Each piece had very complicated jointer and bookmatched veneers on all pieces, with all veneer from the same flitch. Quite nerve racking as a fatal mistake could ruin a year of part time work. Did I make mistakes, heck yes. Tons of them. The "Art" is in learning how to recover. Here is the ultimate in this "Art" for me. After literally years of part time work on this masterpiece, my friend and I were carrying each piece into the bedroom. We had the headboard and footboard in the room and left to get a side board. While out, my wife knocked over the headboard which of course crashed onto the footboard. Both pieces were ruined. Between them there were 48 separate damaged areas. Over the course of a week I was able to repair each area well enough that a trained observer might only find 10 of the 48 repairs.

Look at reparing errors as a way to take your game to the next level. I think it's amaturish to simply replace a part that you screwed up. Finding a way to fix it is the next level. BTW, the Oct 2006 Fine Woodworking has a great article on this....joe

[David Rose]

Joe,

If you are disagreeing between my statement of "pro" and yours of "artisan", I agree with you. What you said is really what I meant. Thanks for the correction. I did not mean to imply that you had to be a pro to correct mistakes. I am probably better at correcting my many mistakes than doing the work. :eek:

And I can really empathise with your bed experience. My current blanket chest got set back for a year due to medical reasons. After getting it rolling again, somewhere in the delays there are more little dings than I've ever put on work. For them to happen in quantity suddenly would be a heart breaker. I did drop the front (show side of course) off the bench at some point and was blessed to have only a few major dings that were repairable. But a few years use and no one will notice. ;)

It might be "amateurish" to replace a damage part, but if I were doing this for a living, I would probably do that due to time in lots of cases. So it could be a "pro" move also. But thank God, this is my hobby! Did I mention that before? :p

Hmmm... I thought I read all of FWWs that had come in. Great! :) More to come. I must not have finished it.

David


David, I disagree. I think the next level of the "Art" is recovering from mistakes. I built an a bedroom suite that is intended to last many generations. Probably a couple thousand hours. Each piece had very complicated jointer and bookmatched veneers on all pieces, with all veneer from the same flitch. Quite nerve racking as a fatal mistake could ruin a year of part time work. Did I make mistakes, heck yes. Tons of them. The "Art" is in learning how to recover. Here is the ultimate in this "Art" for me. After literally years of part time work on this masterpiece, my friend and I were carrying each piece into the bedroom. We had the headboard and footboard in the room and left to get a side board. While out, my wife knocked over the headboard which of course crashed onto the footboard. Both pieces were ruined. Between them there were 48 separate damaged areas. Over the course of a week I was able to repair each area well enough that a trained observer might only find 10 of the 48 repairs.

Look at reparing errors as a way to take your game to the next level. I think it's amaturish to simply replace a part that you screwed up. Finding a way to fix it is the next level. BTW, the Oct 2006 Fine Woodworking has a great article on this....joe

[Stu Ablett in Tokyo Japan]

John,
Since you are pretty close by I would not mind showing you my techniques for joining and preparing panels for tops etc in my shop. Right now I am in Quebec and then I go to Toronto...then home on the 14th. Call or email me and I will try to get you out of the rut, Woodworking is often repeating skills that you aquire and the important thing is to learn them in the first place. Joining boards, flatening, preparing stock and some basic joinery are key skills that open the door to lots of projects....then more skills can be added...the key is to get started.

Geez John, JUMP on this offer right away!! :D

Darn nice of you Mark!

Cheers!

[Don Baer]

Woodworking can be a frustrating and humbling expierence. I stumbled along for a number of years and turned out acceptable pieces using minimal tools. (book cases, shelves etc.) then I decided that I realy wanted to learn the craft and improve. I started doing what I could to improve my skills. On of the things that helped me along on my journey was discovering Saw Mill Creek and the great folks here who are willing to help by answering my questions. I took some courses and met a few wood workers who contibuted to my skills. The one thing that turned the corner for me was attending a workshop with Sam Maloof. Here is a person who is entirly self taught. True he has an artistic eye for shape and form but I realised that he also has a passion for what he does. He is not afraid to try new things an improve on what he does. When he talks about his " chair joint between the legs and the seats he say that he looked at it one day and said to him self that he could do better then what he had done in the past. His passion to do better inspired me to do the same. During the workshop I had the previlige of seeing him make a mistake and have to start over. Every time I do a project I look at how I can "do better" next time. I am presently doing a project that involves a lot of panel joining and have discovered better way to do it next time. The one thing that I have discovered about wood working is it's a constant learning expierace. When I quite learning then I guess it will be tile to quite woodworking. Everytime I do aproject I try something new to challenge my skills and everytime I succeed, most of the time it takes a little scrap to get the finished product but the results are worth the effort. Hang in there, network, take some classes and in a year look at what you are able to do and compare it to what you did a year prior. I am sure you'll be inspired.

[David Rose]

AMEN! <shouting intended>

Mark never made me an offer like that. :rolleyes: I think he likes you better than me. Or maybe Arkansas is too far from home? :eek:

David


Geez John, JUMP on this offer right away!! :D

Darn nice of you Mark!

Cheers!

[Mike Henderson]

John, you might profit from some instruction. In the SoCal area you have two good woodworking schools, Palomar and Cerritos. You can't go wrong with either. Cerritos offers classes on the weekend and is a straight shot on the 91 for you. I haven't taken classes at Palomar so I don't know if they offer weekend classes.

Take Mark Singer up on his offer - he's an excellent woodworker and has a well equiped shop - but one day of instruction is not as good as several classes, each a semester long.

Woodworking seems to come easy for some people while others struggle to learn the skills. But even those who struggle can produce some excellent results.

Good luck in whatever direction you choose.

Mike

[John Stevens]

I was very inspired by Mark's therapy post (http://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=43315) but I'm begining to think that, as much as I like getting out there and working with my hands (I'm a systems guy by trade), maybe woodworking is just not the right hobby for me.

John, I understand where you're coming from...been there myself. Some people actually enjoy the process of woodworking. Some, like me, find it repetitous to the point of being tedious. Different strokes for different folks. Here are some tips that have kept my head in the game.

1. Focus on the end result, not the process. I hate the three-hour drive to Pittsburgh, but visiting my in-laws makes the drive worth it. Same with woodworking--I don't like the dust, noise and solitude of working with wood, but right now it's the only way I can afford to have the furniture I like. If the end result is enough of a draw for you, then it'll motivate you to put in time to achieve it.

2. A corollary to the last point--don't waste your time making stuff that you could buy for less. Unless you've got the ego of an adolescent, your pride in your "workmanship" isn't going to motivate you spend all that time in your dusty, noisy wood shop just to make something you could buy at a furniture store.

3. Another corollary to the last two points--design is the best way to add value to your work. Sure, it's nice to have furniture that is made with "real" wood (as opposed to engineered materials) and that has "hand made" features like dovetails. But you're not going to leave drawers open so you and your family can see the dovetails. And if you use plywood properly in a piece of furniture, only you will know it's not solid wood. The most obvious thing that will make your furniture beautiful and useful is design. Read lots of books on architecture, interior decorating, graphic design and furniture style, and your design ability is bound to improve.

4. Learn how to fix mistakes, and get comfortable with making them. The more you read articles and books on woodworking, the more you'll realize that even the most experienced woodworkers make mistakes that are expensive in terms of time and/or money. Once you realize that, you won't feel so bad about your own mistakes. And the better you get at fixing them, the less you'll regret them.

5. Get comfortable with spending lots of money on tools. Forget the romantic myth of the humble craftsman and his chest of simple tools. Even in the days before power tools, a master woodworker's tools cost him weeks and weeks of wages. Same is true today. Good tools make it much easier to do neat, precise work. Sure, if you spend enough time, you can learn to do neat, precise work with mediocre tools. But if it's not intrinsically enjoyable for you to spend your time making up for the imprecision of your tools, then spend the money for good tools. For example, if you’re having problems getting a panel to glue up flat, then spend a couple thousand bucks on a jointer, a planer and clamps that are specially made for keeping panels flat during glue ups. Come to terms with the fact that woodworking is an industrial process. Before the industrial age, it was a full-time craft. It has never been, and will never be, a simple, low-cost hobby like whittling figures from kindling.

6. Use power tools whenever you can. Don't buy into other peoples’ notions that woodworking by hand is somehow more "noble" than woodworking with power tools, or that "fine craftsmanship" is the same as "made by hand." Back in the days of hand tools, the low-skill tasks were done by twelve-year-old apprentices who ate table scraps, dressed in rags and slept on a pile of straw. Now child labor is illegal, and we have machines to do the grunt work. Don't waste your valuable time doing low-value tasks that apprentices used to do. And ask yourself whether you’d rather spend hours learning to saw a straight line by hand (and more hours keeping in practice) when you can buy a good power saw and cut a straight line in seconds.

7. Building upon the last point, use modern methods of joinery like pocket screws and biscuits. Learn how strong these methods of joinery are by making some trial pieces, and then design your projects so that they'll be adequately strong when joined that way. Dovetail and mortise and tenon joints may be stronger than biscuits, but if biscuits are adequately strong, then don't waste your time making a "traditional" joint just because everybody else thinks you ought to. Even the Shakers used nails sometimes.

8. Spend your time on the parts that are visible, not the parts that will be hidden. If you’ve ever repaired antique furniture, you’ve noticed that the interior parts are made with only as much labor as necessary for the piece to work well. Additional labor was not spent to reach a higher level of precision or aesthetics.

9. Buy parts made by other people. It's another romantic myth that the great furniture of old was made by a single "master craftsman." As far back as the mid-1800s, furniture was made in shops that employed one guy to do the turning, another guy to do the joinery, etc. So take some pressure off yourself, and don't feel like you have to do everything. Buy moulding instead of trying to make it yourself on the router table. Buy furniture legs instead of trying to taper or turn them yourself. Heck, you can even find shops that will custom-make doors and drawers for you. Do what you like and pay someone else to do what you don't like!

Hope this helps.

[Dave Anderson NH]

Hi John, I'll leave the philosophical observations to others, they've been covered pretty well so far in this thread.

I would suggest that you go back to square one and evaluate your your marking and measuring tools for accuracy. My son came to me with a complaint about his problems with out of square cuts and assemblies while doing some major rehab work on his house a couple of years ago. I went over to help out and the first thing I discoved was that he was using an el cheapo $9 combination square from one of the big box store and a carpenters framing square from the same source. To make a long story short, neither were square and all of his referenes had been taken off of them. In the computer world it's know as GIGO. To further aggravate matters he was doing tablesaw fence setups with the combo square....same results.

I can not overemphasize the importance of accurate measuring tools to the final result. A basic set would include a good combo square like the Starrett, SPI, or Browne & Sharpe, and a precision set of engineers squares (not the cheapies). Other tools of equal quality can be added later as funds allow, but these are the foundations upon which all your results will rest.

A guess about your difficulties presents several possiblilites, though from the information you provided, it will be only a guess. If I'm wrong, at least these are examples of typical problems. You used a framing square and even a .005" variance per inch caused you to be out 1/16" at a foot and 1/8" over the 24 inches of the outside long leg of the square. You set up your tablesaw rip fence either expecting it to be square from the factory or used a tape measure to set it--- both are prescriptions for major inaccuracies. You eyeballed or used a tape measure to mark part lengths for cross cutting on the sliding miter gage- a stop block on the miter gage would insure each and every part would be the same length.

If you like woodworking, I hope you will continue with it. As others have said, seek instruction. The late quality guru Edward Deming had a famous quote, "you dont know what you don't know." No matter how you far progress, you will always make mistakes. I have yet to meet the perfect human being. Take heart and lighten up upon yourself. I cringe every time I look at the projects I built 30 years ago. Brrrrrrrr

[Paul Canaris]

John, my interest in furniture making has come and gone over the years. I think it's pretty normal to have a range of interests, to need a period of time away from interests so they stay fresh and enjoyable. Unless you have unlimited time and budget something will always be at the forefront and others on the back burner. I suspect that most of the fulltime WW’s likely go fishing or something other than WW to relax.

[Lee DeRaud]

In the SoCal area you have two good woodworking schools, Palomar and Cerritos. You can't go wrong with either. Cerritos offers classes on the weekend and is a straight shot on the 91 for you. I haven't taken classes at Palomar so I don't know if they offer weekend classes.Fullerton College also has a woodworking program...a bit shorter drive than Cerritos. It looks to be more basic than Cerritos', but it might not be a bad place to start.

When you get really good, there's also William Ng's school in Anaheim.:cool:

[Mark Singer]

John, you might profit from some instruction. In the SoCal area you have two good woodworking schools, Palomar and Cerritos. You can't go wrong with either. Cerritos offers classes on the weekend and is a straight shot on the 91 for you. I haven't taken classes at Palomar so I don't know if they offer weekend classes.

Take Mark Singer up on his offer - he's an excellent woodworker and has a well equiped shop - but one day of instruction is not as good as several classes, each a semester long.

Woodworking seems to come easy for some people while others struggle to learn the skills. But even those who struggle can produce some excellent results.

Good luck in whatever direction you choose.

Mike

This is true, My friend and long time instructor,Chris Feddershon at Palomar...right now he is Japan buying some paring chisels for me and doing his yearly trip. The school there is great! The students do fine work and there are wonderful guests like Sam Maloof and the Japanese plane contest and timber frame masters... It is really a great campus. My offer stands...but Palomar is a really good option!

[Mike Cutler]

John.

Every discipline of wood working is not for everyone, thankfully there are many. I would love to be able to carve, but my attempts to date have all become woodstove material in the winter, such is life.

What does it require to be a competent woodworker? Attention to detail, patience, basic mechanical skills, a little drafting ability, good measuring instruments and of course desire. It can be too frustrating if the desire is not there.

My last large project required almost 18 months of work(2 large bookcases, and an entryway door, with surround). At the end of this I was blown. Fried mentally. Close to 700 M&T joints, hundreds of individual pieces, large panel glueups, Full sized router templates 10 feet long and I didn't know if everything would go together to the end. Many, many mistakes. A lot of rework. This project really pushed me.
I took a pretty significant break at the end, other than whacking off an occasional 2x4. I didn't do any woodworking for months. I didn't even want to see a tape measure, vernier, or set of dividers.

I think, like I did, that you need a break. Put the projects away, close up the shop, and do something else for awhile. I have a 30yr old D-35 Martin that was just begging to be played when I got done. Don't quit, just take a sabbatical, because in all honesty the problems that you have detailed sound as if you got ahold of some case hardened, improperly cured wood that was fighting you for the whole nine yards. It happens bro'.
Take a break. When you come back start with the basics, and by all means take Mark up on his offer.

Mike

[Kent Cartwright]

Being a bean-counter in my daily job, getting the details "exactly right" tended to carry over into my woodworking hobby. This started to drive me crazy, as between the learning curve and my dumb mistakes, I found myself getting down on both myself and the hobby because I stressed when things did not work out perfectly. The upside of this is I did three things that really made things better:
First I started reading everything I could find on my hobby.
Second, I made myself walk away from major mistakes and address them later, when I was clearer headed.
Third, and most importantly, I signed up for a week-long woodworking class.

The class really did it for me, as I learned the pro's simply approach mistakes as part of the business, and have come up with a "bag of tricks" designed to deal with them. I came away with the knowledge that mistakes in this hobby are inevitable and ok. Wow! That was a revelation for me and has made the hobby much more enjoyable.:D Heck, sometimes I even enjoy making mistakes, because it then challenges me to come up with a creative solution!:eek:

Good luck!

Kent

[Roger Wilson]

In software development there is a concept called "good enough" software. Invented by Microsoft of course, it is this: as long as users are able to make use of a product without excessive crashes, and freezes the software ships.

Some of that relaxed attitude is needed in woodworking as well. There is no such thing as perfection. Everyone is on a learning curve.

Your mistakes are generally not visible to non-woodworkers. They very much appreciate the time and effort you put into making something special, personally, with your own hands, for them.

Enjoy.

[Larry James]

I thought it was just me. You guys sure are inspiring, and you even make mistakes.

Larry

[Jim Becker]

Simply put,,, no its not.

I'd like to modify Doug's succinct response a little...no, it's not all the time. Hobbies and the like are not always something that one can pursue "all the time". There are always distractions in all of our lives and sometimes we discover things that capture our attention more "for the moment" or longer.

Honestly, as much as I love woodworking, there are many times (lately) when moving rocks around with the tractor is better, more effective and necessary therapy for me. That's ok. My shop is always there when I need it and I do know woodworking will always be part of my life.

What I will NOT do is make the mistake I did with my music many years ago and go completely dormant for a long period of time nor divest of any "stuff". I recently got out my primary keyboard and have enjoyed revisting the sounds and touch it provides. That was missing too long. I know I'd feel the same way about my tools and wood.

[Keith Weber]

I recently got out my primary keyboard and have enjoyed revisting the sounds and touch it provides.

Jim,

Judging by the number of posts you've made, I would think your primary keyboard is the one that you've got your hands on right now! :-)

Keith

[Jim Becker]

Judging by the number of posts you've made, I would think your primary keyboard is the one that you've got your hands on right now!

'Several to choose from here in the "cockpit"...err...office...as well as on the road. ;) And I type fast.

But seriously, I do try to make my comments useful, not just frequent. While my time in the shop is limited right now, at least I can still talk about woodworking, encourage folks to do the same and learn A LOT from others in this virtual community no matter where in the world I happen to be.

[Keith Weber]

Hey Jim,

If I came across as making a remark about you talking too much, it was totally by accident. I've enjoyed reading your many posts. I just thought it was funny that you called something else a primary keyboard. It was almost like a pun.

You mentioned the many computers in your "cockpit". Was that a literal or figurative comment? I've got a few in my office too, but I can't post on SMC with them!

Keith

[Jim Becker]

I'm envious, Keith. Nice cockpit! (There are a few SMC'ers who spend time in similar places as you posted) Unfortunately, I get to ride on the other side of the locked door...but hopefully closer rather than farther away from it..."status" is good to have. ;)

[Alan DuBoff]

Keith,

That would look excellent with some wood on the dash!

Is that one of the new Porsches, or does that one fly high? :p