L-N dovetail saw

[Ken Werner]

Just thinking about buying a L-N dovetail saw. Seeking opinions about it. Up til now, I've been using a dedicated [dovetails only] Japanese pull saw with a rigid back, and find that the cut sometimes seems to wander.
Thanks.
Ken

[Alan DuBoff]

I'll offer my non-professional-hobbyist opinion. I think any of the higher end hand saws, which I group the LN in, are good quality tools. This goes for the Adria also, another darn fine saw with many happy users (I'm sure they'll chime in).

Some have said the LN is difficult to start the cut on, but I've seen ones that are difficult to start, and ones that are not. This leads me to believe that it's all in the way the teeth are filed.

Derek Cohen bought an older Independence Tool saw (same saw, but pre-dates the LN before LN bought IT), and it was unused. He sent it to Mike Wenzloff to have him re-file the teeth how he prefers them, so that it was easy to start. Somewhere, even on this site, there might be a review of it. Do a search.

I use several different saws, but some of my faves are the ones that Wenzloff & Sons made for me, I have a pair of small joinery saws (http://wenzloffandsons.com/saws/adu/adu_0002.jpg), one filed rip, and one filed crosscut. These are great little saws and I like the way they feel in my hand, Mike really knows how to make a great saw, as witnessed by many satisfied customers/users of them.

Not trying to change your mind, I believe that the LN is a good quality saw, and it might or might not suit you the way it is filed from the factory, it is for many folks. They are also the most readily available and can be had at most Woodcraft stores in stock, or through mail order. Other saw makers to consider are Leif Hanson (Norse Woodsmith), and Tim Hoff, both who also make nice saws.

Whatever saw you decide on, providing it is a western saw, I would encourage you to take the time to learn how to sharpen it yourself. This will be time well spent and in the future you will be able to touch it up easily and make it good as new.

These smaller saws, or what people refer to as a dovetail saws, are good for most all stock up to 6/4 comfortably, IMO. 8/4 starts pushing the envelope for the depth of the blade on most of them (but can be done, certainly), and a larger 10"-12" saw starts feeling more comfortable in 8/4 for me, and a tad extra blade depth helps also.

With a Japanese saw, you really need to let the saw do the work, because once it starts to drift, you will have a hard time getting it back and you can't use any force on them whatsoever to overcome that. This seems to be the tendancy for most folks when they do start to drift, I know it is for me, and trying to muscle a Japanese saw back online will typically only make things worse. DAMHIKT

[Dan Moening]

I have an LN dovetail saw purchased a few years back; a couple of Leif's saws; and a rip-filed Dozuki from Woodcraft.

The LN is a bit tough to start, but simply requires a firm commitment; once started it tracks like its on rails.

I've never held a saw that fit my hands the way the Leif's do. Bloody sharp and quick cutting.

The Dozuki is a joy to use, but for me requires more concentration as I am accustomed to push-style saws. It does start quite easy and will cut a straight line as long as the initial kerf is proper.

They all cut wonderfully. Any error induced in sawing can be directly attributed to me. (read: technique). Rather than expend $100, why not concentrate on technique? You will have to relearn how to cut properly with this change in handle style anyway.

[Steve Wargo]

I have 4 LN saws. I love them all and use them a bunch. Garrett Hack cuts most of his dovetails with a cheap $10 Kunz straight handled backsaw. It's not in the tool. :D

[Ken Bryant]

I have two LN saws; don't like them (though I dearly love LN planes). They're hard to start, and generally hard to push. My two largish Wenzloff saws are extraordinary, and I'm going to try to get a smaller one made for dovetails.

[Derek Cohen]

......Some have said the LN is difficult to start the cut on, but I've seen ones that are difficult to start, and ones that are not. This leads me to believe that it's all in the way the teeth are filed.

Derek Cohen bought an older Independence Tool saw (same saw, but pre-dates the LN before LN bought IT), and it was unused. He sent it to Mike Wenzloff to have him re-file the teeth how he prefers them, so that it was easy to start. Somewhere, even on this site, there might be a review of it. Do a search......

I am not sure if I posted that review here, so here is a link:

http://www.wkfinetools.com/contrib/dCohen/2saws/fatherSon.asp

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Ken Werner]

Thanks to all for your thoughtful replies. Perhaps a Wenzloff saw should be in my future, rather than the L-N.

Ken

[Eddie Darby]

I don't own a Lie-Nielsen saw, but I have had a chance to see Rob Cosman of Lie-Nielsen Toolworks cut his dovetails ( truly amazing to watch ), and he says the saw is 90% of the battle. The saw is a rip tooth saw since most of the sawing in dovetailing is rip-cutting. He removes just a hair of set from the saw, and test cuts to see if it is going straight. If not then he goes back to removing just a hair off 1 side or the other until the matter is settled.

Lie-Nielsen were the first to re-introduce rip saws for dovetails into the market after researching what was done in the 19th Century, when handtools use was at a zenith, up til then everyone made cross-cut saws for dovetails. If you get a saw at a show I know that Rob Cosman will make sure that it is cutting straight.

If anyone has a saw that is hard to use then I would email Lie-Nielsen and see what to do.

Whatever saw you decide to get to do dovetails, make sure that it is a *RIP* saw.

[Mark Singer]

I have the LN dovetail saw along with many others....it is an excellent saw. I removed a bit of set by lightly stoning the sides....it is as good as my better older saws and it is better filed rip for dovetails

[Mike Wenzloff]

...Lie-Nielsen were the first to re-introduce rip saws for dovetails into the market after researching what was done in the 19th Century, when handtools use was at a zenith, up til then everyone made cross-cut saws for dovetails. ...
Actually, Tom LN bought out the Independence Tool's saw line. This was started by Pete Taran [Vintage Saw web site] and Patrick Leach [the source for information on Stanley planes--the SuperTool web site and old tool seller].

They made these for a few years before selling to LN, who expanded the saw offering from the DT/Carcass saws to the line you see now.

Tom makes an excellent saw that can be made more so, depending on your own sawing preferences.

Take care, Mike

[Alan DuBoff]

Thanks to all for your thoughtful replies. Perhaps a Wenzloff saw should be in my future, rather than the L-N.My $0.02, send the LNs to Mike Wenzloff and have him straighten them up for you. I wouldn't send them back to LN, if they couldn't get them right the first time, what makes one believe they would get it right the second time.

Those are darn fine saws Ken, they just need tad of TLC to be an excellent tool. Derek posted a link to his write-up, I think when you read it there's a chance it might encourage you to send your saws to Wenzloff & Sons, or to someone else that can do that same, and knows what they're doing.

What Eddie said was true in regards to what Cosman advocates, and the LN saws out of the box are better than the majority of saws available. However, that was before we started to have more saw makers surface, and there are more options available to folks today, than there was even just a couple years ago.

Knowing what to do is half the battle. Derek has laid out out in black and white and stated it better than I will in this message, so no need to elaborate anymore.

In NorCal, the local galoots get together for a yearly BAG-A-THON. This year's BAG-A-THON was a few weeks ago. One of the long standing galoots had a wonderful Disston 8", it was an older one, pre-1880 as it had split-nuts. The tip of the lower horn on the handle was busted off. One of the other galoots (not a saw maker, just a saw aficionadio) had taken the saw and tuned it up for him several weeks prior to our gathering. It is now his favorite saw. It was a great saw, and a saw that anyone would be glad to use. Then handle felt so nice, and it was sharp. I think the handle was shellac'd as well. Moral of the story, with a little TLC any saw can be your favorite.

For anyone that has a saw they don't like, spend the time to tune it up, and if you are not familiar with doing so, give one of the sawmakers a shot at doing it for you. I think you'll be surprised that the saw you had become discouraged with, could be one of your best friends in the shop.:cool:

EDIT: I see Mike Wenzloff snuck a message in while I was typing this! I would add that I don't think LN was the folks that thought up rip teeth on a dovetail saw...they bought into the idea that Pete Taran had started. There were folks using rip teeth quite a long time before that, I would imagine...

[Chuck Stanford]

Just thinking about buying a L-N dovetail saw. Seeking opinions about it. Up til now, I've been using a dedicated [dovetails only] Japanese pull saw with a rigid back, and find that the cut sometimes seems to wander.
Thanks.
Ken

Three words: Hard To Start

It's not your technique, it's not your fault. The bleedin' thing is just hard to start.

It can be 'fixed' but I'd rather buy a Wenzloff or another maker's saw that does not have the same fussy reputation.

[Alan DuBoff]

It can be 'fixed' but I'd rather buy a Wenzloff or another maker's saw that does not have the same fussy reputation.QFT, and I see I mixed the Kens up, it was Ken Bryant that already has the LN saws. He should send those to Mike Wenzloff.

Any saw can be corrected, and if folks have a LN and find it difficult to start, either send it to someone that can fix it for you, or tune it up yourself. Good excercise in tuning a hand saw up, the skill comes in mighty handy.

I will put myself on record as not being the best at shaping teeth from scratch, and a saw maker that has a foley could be helpful in that case. I know that Wenzloff & Sons cuts the teeth on a foley before hand filing them. The first saw I tried to shape teeth on was quite humorous...(in a sad way;)), but given patience and persistence, it is possible to get the teeth fairly evenly shaped. Even ugly teeth can cut well, which is surprising, but I jointed it back down and re-did it.:D I still won't show it to you though...<LOL!>

[Alice Frampton]

Three words: Hard To Start

It's not your technique, it's not your fault. The bleedin' thing is just hard to start.

It can be 'fixed' but I'd rather buy a Wenzloff or another maker's saw that does not have the same fussy reputation.
Ummm... it might well be technique actually. I haven't found mine hard to start at all. Not to say I wouldn't probably have gone for a Wenzloff if I was doing it again (and it had happened to be there right under my hand at the time - yeah, it was one of those purchases...)

Of course I could be a sawing genius.*

Cheers, Alf

* And everyone that knows me is rolling around laughing at about that point :o

[Jerry Palmer]

Since LN goes to some length concerning the small kerf of their DT saws, I have to assume (since I don't have one and don't recall seeing one ever) that the hard starting has to do with little or no rake in the teeth. If you're willing to tackle the small teeth, a simple refiling of them with a bit more rake, up to 8 degrees or so, would vastly improve the ease of starting the saw.

[Mike Wenzloff]

Since LN goes to some length concerning the small kerf of their DT saws, I have to assume (since I don't have one and don't recall seeing one ever) that the hard starting has to do with little or no rake in the teeth. If you're willing to tackle the small teeth, a simple refiling of them with a bit more rake, up to 8 degrees or so, would vastly improve the ease of starting the saw.
Last I knew TLN's saws were filed at 8 degrees rake, Adria at 4.

Hard starting can also be burrs left over from sharpening--very lightly stoning both sides to see if it improves things. Note, I use a diamnod plate to stone with.

It can also be differences in woods. Some Maples can be very difficult to start on. I have a piece of Maple so hard my Japanese saws, my original LN saws and a few others simply would not do more than skitter on the surface.

The Oaks can be similar in varying degrees of making a saw otherwise hard to start or track straight, or not be binding. Bloodwood can also vary.

Take care, Mike

[Mike Wenzloff]

...Of course I could be a sawing genius.*

Cheers, Alf

* And everyone that knows me is rolling around laughing at about that point :o
Nyuk Nyuk...

Not really laughing at you, but with you...

As the boys learn more and more, and use saws more themselves, there was a beautiful, firgured piece of Rosewood Kris had shaped. One last detail to be cut in was the chamfers at the brass back's mortise.

On the first, he cut off line, but to the waste side. On the second, he stopped just before sawing off to the leave-side. He looked up and said, "I have a new motto for us. "We know how to make 'em, but we don't know how to use 'em.""

That was the third handle that day something went awry on for him. We chuckle and say his motto to him whenever he goes to make a cut anymore...

Take care, Mike

[Mike Wenzloff]

In part it is filing machines, but that is really a pull-to-one side thing as the filer only files one direction. If the saw doesn't pull to one side, lightly stoning both sides can make it easier to start.

Another hard to start cause can be uneven set. This is because the sides/tips of some teeth are trying to widen the kerf one is attempting to establish.

I hear you about fresh files. You should see my file bill...

I recently did some 19 ppi saws from .018" plate. Using a 2" file. If I put a tad too much pressure on a tooth I could take a tooth near off. After the first saw I actually dulled a couple files on purpose before beginning the others.

Take care, Mike

[Jerry Palmer]

I've only ever stoned saw blades when I found them consistantly pulling to one side or another, and didn't really consider it for difficult starting due to burrs from filing. Is that more prevalent with machine filing? I'm a bit a AR about using fresh files, especially on those little bitty teeth, and use a light touch when doing the final filing so I may or may not have avoided the issue of burrs. I say may not have avoided the issue since I've noticed on occassion that a freshly filed saw is sometimes a bit difficult to start, but gets "broke in" after a few cuts and goes back to its previous easy to start personality. I just figured those freshly filed sharp edges were biting off more than they could chew, so to speak. I'd also read where others had similar situations with freshly sharpened saws.:rolleyes:

[Ken Werner]

Just to provide a little feedback, after considering the various comments from my learned friends here, I've asked Mike W. to make me a saw...

6 weeks plus or minus til I get to post a gloat.

Thanks to all those who jumped into the creek here for me.

Ken

[Mark Singer]

KEN,
I think you will be very happy! I have only heard good things about Mikes saws.

[Roy Wall]

KEN,
I think you will be very happy! I have only heard good things about Mikes saws.

I'll second that!

Ken - I have the LN DT saw and the Carcass (xcut) saw. It took a little practice for me "NOT" to get chatter, grabbing, etc... on the start of these saws.

The key for me was very light pressure, and flush down on the line. A few light strokes, and then the saw would begin to cut nicely. I too, took a hair of set off the teeth with a little 400 grit.

My next saw purchase(s) will be of the TENON Variety and I will order from Mike due to his outstanding reputation.

[Ken Bryant]

Mike,

Which of your saws would you recommend for small-to-medium dovetails? In one-inch, hardwood stock?

[Mike Wenzloff]

Hi Ken,

Regardless of maker, I would recommend a saw of the carcass saw size, 2 1/4" usable depth, 11" in blade length. If a wood such as hard Maple is being cut, 16 ppi, filed with a little fleam and about 4-6 degrees of rake.

That would provide a good stroke length, and the added depth helps keep the perspective, the sense of cutting plumb.

Take care, Mike

[Alan DuBoff]

I've only ever stoned saw blades when I found them consistantly pulling to one side or another, and didn't really consider it for difficult starting due to burrs from filing. Is that more prevalent with machine filing?Jerry,

Speaking for myself, I don't typically add set to my dovetail saws, but do like just a tad.

I've looked at the teeth with a 2.5x OptiVisor, fresh after sharpening and you can see the burr on the teeth. I use a DMT stone (the small green one, for a key chain), which is available at any OSH in my area for about $10 (you can get them at Woodcraft, but even OSH provides me with better customer service than I can get frm my local Woodcraft).

I always use a fresh side of a file.

I say may not have avoided the issue since I've noticed on occassion that a freshly filed saw is sometimes a bit difficult to start, but gets "broke in" after a few cuts and goes back to its previous easy to start personality.Yes, eventually the burr will wear off, but until that does you won't have a properly tuned saw, IMO. Why wait for it to settle in when you can run it once to each side on the DMT and be done with it?

Just to provide a little feedback, after considering the various comments from my learned friends here, I've asked Mike W. to make me a saw...I'm certain you won't be unhappy with a Wenzloff & Son's saw. And if you are, Mike will make it right, I'm sure of that. I was trying to point out in the thread though, that most saws are good, just that some of them need to be tuned up. Mike will even help folks with that if they don't feel comfortable with it, and provides a full saw maker service. IOW, you can get saws filed, you can get a new handle, you can get a new back installed on a saw, or you can get a new blade installed in your old back. Mike does it all, from A to Z, and everything in between. He'll do it on old Disstons, Atkins, Peace, Simonds, or any type of old english saws. This is the type of service one should expect from a saw maker, IMO.

I like Jerry's half back, and originally wanted Mike to make me a strange half back design, which we never ended up doing.

[Chuck Stanford]

Ummm... it might well be technique actually. I haven't found mine hard to start at all. Not to say I wouldn't probably have gone for a Wenzloff if I was doing it again (and it had happened to be there right under my hand at the time - yeah, it was one of those purchases...)

Of course I could be a sawing genius.*

Cheers, Alf

* And everyone that knows me is rolling around laughing at about that point :o

The folks at L-N acknowledge it's fussy to start.

I guess you're a genius.

[Alice Frampton]

Maybe, to quote a famous sawmaker, they know how to make 'em, but they don't know how to use 'em? :D

And that's just a facetious remark, btw - not for rational, or irrational, debate! :eek:

Cheers, Alf

[Derek Cohen]

Deleted by Derek.

[Alice Frampton]

Aww, Derek, does that mean it's not worth me printing off that genius remark? Oh poo. :( ;)

Cheers, Alf

[Alan DuBoff]

Maybe, to quote a famous sawmaker, they know how to make 'em, but they don't know how to use 'em? :D I don't know how skilled the folks are that produce the saws for LN, but I suspect they can manufacture them in bulk, period. I seriously doubt they test each saw they manufacture, and would be surprised if the saws even touch wood before they ship. OTOH, I know for certain that Wenzloff & Sons tests each saw and makes certain they work for their intended purpose, that being cutting actual wood.:eek: Mike even tests them for the type of wood one plans to use, and asks what that is when you order, typically.

I wonder if a person or machine wraps the LN saws in the paper when they put them in the box? Crown, OTOH, drops their gent saws in a plastic bag.

It seems to me that part of the problem that developed with saw makers is that the majority of them have turned into machine makers over time.:rolleyes: The bulk of Japanese saws never see wood either, let alone have a real human file them. But darn if those Japanese didn't figure out a way to stamp out saws like there was no tomorrow. Won't be long before they manufacture them in China to save costs, if they're not doing it there already.:p

I don't know if you're genius or not Alf, but I like 'ya either way!;)

[Mike Wenzloff]

Aww, Derek, does that mean it's not worth me printing off that genius remark? Oh poo. :( ;)

Cheers, Alf
Ah geez, I guess I came to the party late and missed it altogether!

Alan, I have heard the mass produced Japanese saws are "punched" using a water jet. Very clean and nice. If I could, I would as well. Punch teeth by brute force using a punch and die takes effort and, well, is traumatic to the poor saw blade :rolleyes: . Seriously, there are better ways and they use one of the best methods for regularity. I suspect they are then die ground.

My understanding is LN does test the saws. My feeling about the teeth on LN saws is one has to make a decision, as Eddie at Adria did, what to do the teeth if one makes them up ahead of time. Same as Disston et al.

As well, we too will be selling through at least one retailer. I have to make the teeth applicable to a wider range of folks ahead of time. We will always be willing to customize the teeth if after receiving them should a saw prove too difficult--or not aggressive enough--at no cost.

But I do believe LN and perhaps Eddie will do a certain amount of customization to a filing if ordered through them. Disston did the same if the saw was sent to them by a customer, but then too, there was a "saw doctor" on every corner once upon a time, so it was moot. People who used saws for a living expected a new saw may need customization for they way they worked.

Well, need to work. Take care, Mike

[John Clifford]

Sorry for coming to the dance a little late, but if it were me I'd buy a Wenzloff. I have the LN and it's made really nice but I'm not that impressed with how the teeth are sharpened. It cuts slower than I care for. I have two other DT saws by independant tool makers, namely Tim Hoff and Leif (can't think of his last name) who goes by Nordic on WoodNet. They both cut faster than the LN. I'm planning on ordering one of MikeW's beauties in the not too distant future. I've never heard anything but rave reviews about his saws and I like that you can have it custom made, length, tpi, rake angle, handle hang, wood choice etc, etc. And I'm absolutely in love with the No.9 he makes, it's gorgeous. Anyway, just my .02.

[Jerry Palmer]

My other two bought new saws are Tim's and Leif's, got one of the first ones Leif made for sale. Great saws, and if you like fast cutters, I know why you like Tim's. My Nordic is a short one, so no speed demon. Since my eyes were already aclimated to filing little bitty teeth on my Wenzloff half back, figured I go ahead and touch up those on the saw from Tim. Originally filed rip and I like just a tad of fleam on those little teeth. Since this was a touch-up, I stuck with the rake angle of the existing teeth. Big mistake. I don't think he had filed them with a single degree of rake, and the little bit of fleam I added made that saw impossible to start. And if you got it started, it would get stuck in the cut. Quick fix, though. Just gave each tooth a couple strokes with 12 degrees of rake at about 15 degrees of fleam, and it rips and crosscuts like no one's business now.

[Chuck Stanford]

I don't know how skilled the folks are that produce the saws for LN, but I suspect they can manufacture them in bulk, period. I seriously doubt they test each saw they manufacture, and would be surprised if the saws even touch wood before they ship. OTOH, I know for certain that Wenzloff & Sons tests each saw and makes certain they work for their intended purpose, that being cutting actual wood.:eek: Mike even tests them for the type of wood one plans to use, and asks what that is when you order, typically.

I wonder if a person or machine wraps the LN saws in the paper when they put them in the box? Crown, OTOH, drops their gent saws in a plastic bag.

It seems to me that part of the problem that developed with saw makers is that the majority of them have turned into machine makers over time.:rolleyes: The bulk of Japanese saws never see wood either, let alone have a real human file them. But darn if those Japanese didn't figure out a way to stamp out saws like there was no tomorrow. Won't be long before they manufacture them in China to save costs, if they're not doing it there already.:p

I don't know if you're genius or not Alf, but I like 'ya either way!;)

You're right. The likelihood that L-N is producing as nice a saw as MW is remote, at best.

[Alan DuBoff]

You're right. The likelihood that L-N is producing as nice a saw as MW is remote, at best.Chuck,

I'm not sure this is a fair statement, and I didn't want to imply that specific. The quality of the LN saws are good, although the handcrafted handles are a thing of the past, which Pete Taran did. There are many folks on the oldtools list who have older examples of the Independence Tool saws and those have a very handcrafted handle. The handles on the LN are done on routers and/or cnc, so loose some of that character which the older ones had, IMO. Some people have commented that they feel the older handles are a big crude, and that LN refined the handle when they took over the manufacturing, but I happen to feel quite the opposite. I like the older, hand rasp'd, more crafted handles, the very thing that some folks don't like about those.

Anyone with a LN saw should spend just a bit of time to tune it up. Certainly not something I would throw away to get another saw, but if anyone is tossin' 'em away, please contact me and I'll be glad to take them off your hands. Any saw can be tuned up to work well, with just a bit of work. Folks with old vintage saws they bought for $2 at a flea market should not feel the need to go out and buy a new LN, Wenzloff, Adria, or similar saw. Their saws can be made usable. Owning a using a Wenzloff & Sons saw is a treat in itself, but so is a LN saw if you've had a new Disston with a plastic handle.

And it only makes sense that LN sells more saws than any other saw maker of our day, so I would think that more fine furniture and other woodworking is done with LN saws than any other new saw made.

Some of the best craftsman use an old $5 flea market saw and, that tool is capable of producing high quality results. For the most part, it's not the tool. I think it is important to everyone to understand that while a Wenzloff & Sons saw is a treat to work with, any saw you become accustomed to using will feel comfortable and can be a quality tool with a little fettlin'.

[Chuck Stanford]

Chuck,

I'm not sure this is a fair statement, and I didn't want to imply that specific. The quality of the LN saws are good, although the handcrafted handles are a thing of the past, which Pete Taran did. There are many folks on the oldtools list who have older examples of the Independence Tool saws and those have a very handcrafted handle. The handles on the LN are done on routers and/or cnc, so loose some of that character which the older ones had, IMO. Some people have commented that they feel the older handles are a big crude, and that LN refined the handle when they took over the manufacturing, but I happen to feel quite the opposite. I like the older, hand rasp'd, more crafted handles, the very thing that some folks don't like about those.

Anyone with a LN saw should spend just a bit of time to tune it up. Certainly not something I would throw away to get another saw, but if anyone is tossin' 'em away, please contact me and I'll be glad to take them off your hands. Any saw can be tuned up to work well, with just a bit of work. Folks with old vintage saws they bought for $2 at a flea market should not feel the need to go out and buy a new LN, Wenzloff, Adria, or similar saw. Their saws can be made usable. Owning a using a Wenzloff & Sons saw is a treat in itself, but so is a LN saw if you've had a new Disston with a plastic handle.

And it only makes sense that LN sells more saws than any other saw maker of our day, so I would think that more fine furniture and other woodworking is done with LN saws than any other new saw made.

Some of the best craftsman use an old $5 flea market saw and, that tool is capable of producing high quality results. For the most part, it's not the tool. I think it is important to everyone to understand that while a Wenzloff & Sons saw is a treat to work with, any saw you become accustomed to using will feel comfortable and can be a quality tool with a little fettlin'.

I still like Mike.