OK..help me out here on sharpening....

[Dennis Peacock]

I spend an hour putting an edge on a plane iron.
I put the iron back into the handplane.
I push the plane across the wood.....and now that 1 hour labor edge on the plane iron is now shot...getting more and more dull by each stroke of the plane. Back to taking it apart, back to sharpening again, 1 hour later, repeat all steps above.
To me? Why should I spend $$$ on getting the best edge one could ever get when it will cut just as well with a minimum of fuss without the keenest edge you ever saw.?? :confused: :confused:

Help me out here and educate me just a bit. My toughest part of all this "stuff" is that I read and read and find that you really aren't Neanderin' unless you can get that keen edge, cut, get that keen edge, cut...Or am I reading way too much into this whole process? I mean, I can get a razor sharp edge off the Tormek that will shave hair all day long. I can get a razor sharp edge off my cheap waterstones (read not Shapton).

Maybe I'm just getting frustrated in reading all this stuff about "it ain't sharp enough until".......I'm also planning on making me one of Tod's power stropping setups. I've seen his setup first hand and man what a difference in the time it took to get a nice hair pealing edge off of his strop.

A purist I am not....but I want to be better educated about all this and I don't want to have 60 seconds of handplane action and 1 hour sharpening action to only experience another 60 seconds of handplane action.

Teach this old dawg sumpin.....will ya? Pleez???:o

[tod evans]

dennis, i`ve not found a faster way to get a servicable edge than what i do.....if i do i`ll change....untill then this works for me. on my antiques i still do the arkansas stone and hand strop only because i use them for family projects and it makes me feel that i`ve given more of myself not because the edge cuts any better........02 tod

[Jeff Farris]

Just curious, Dennis. Why are you going to make one of Tod's strops when you already have a leather strop on your TORMEK?

[Jerry Palmer]

Sharpness is relative to the job at hand. If a certain level of sharp is getting the results you want, then that is sharp enough. True, the edge does begin to deteriorate with the very first swipe across the wood, but even smoothing the very toughest wood I've ever used, I get more than a few minutes of planing between rehoning, and the re-honing takes only a few seconds on my highest grit not Shapton or even Norton stones.

I've always had something of an issue with some of the "required" sharpness levels I read about on the net and in magazines though I personally recently picked up an 8K grit waterstone. While I'm sure that in days of old that a craftsman might have occassionally used a strop on a plane iron or chisel, the very finest stones typically available were much courser than even what we call "medium" stones today.

Sharpening for the 17th -18th Century Craftsman was going from a course person powered grinding wheel to one or maybe two whet stones for refining the edge. And they did some pretty fanciful and high class work with those edges. While I can imagine them taking a few swipes with a chisel on the stones occassionally, the effort of popping out the wedge to resharpen a plane iron, resetting the wedge, and messing with getting the depth just right seems like a whole lot of time if performed more than a couple times a day.

[Mike Wenzloff]

Well, Dennis, that's what edges do when used: they start going dull the instant they are used.

Ok. Sorry for the smart alec answer. There can be several factors. What kind of plane and or blade is in the plane? How long did the edge last? What kind of wood?

I suppose the 60 seconds of use is hyperpole, but if it is dulling to the point of not servicable really quickly--10 to 20 minutes in really hard wood--it is either the blade isn't really getting sharp, the edge is being subbed over or the plane blade is suspect.

Do you currently hone on your stone following the Tormek? The leather wheel? Do you use a honing guide--which one if so?

fwiw, popping hair is not a good indicator of sharp. Edge retention is half of the indicator, the steel the other. Shaving an end grain of a Pine board is better--but a waste of time.

Take care, Mike

[Steven Wilson]

Assuming I'm using the right blade for the job I don't find that it takes me an hour to resharpen a blade - downtime at most, unless I nick an edge, is 5 minutes. That's going back to the 5000 grit Shapton and moving up through the grits. To get the edge back on a chisel takes even less time. Sure beats working with dull tools.

[Steve Clardy]

My blades come off the Lee Valley MKII, onto the plane.
Just a minute or so.

[Don Baer]

Dennis,
I certainly am not a Niander expert but I look at my planes and chisels the same way I do my turning tools, as long as I can make curlies then they don't need to be sharpened. JMHO

[Mike Henderson]

Dennis, It shouldn't take you an hour to sharpen a plane blade, except maybe the first time when you have to flatten the back. I can think of two things which might be causing you problems: (1) if you're using a bevel down plane, you may need to increase the bevel angle - use a 30 or 35 degree bevel on bevel down planes, or (2) maybe you're trying to do too much when you sharpen - that is, maybe your standards are a bit too high.

I only resharpen when I notice the plane not cutting as well as I'd like. Then, I go to my 5K and/or 8K stones and touch up the bevel - doesn't take more than 5 minutes max, usually less.

I use the LV MKII honing guide when I sharpen plane blades.

Mike

[Phil Hirz]

Dennis,

Can you provide more information on what you are specifically doing? What is your sharpening process? What do you do in the hour it takes you to resharpen? What stones are you using and what bevel angles are you putting on your blade? Are you using a jig or honing by hand? What plane are you using? What wood are you trying to cut? I am sure that the people on this forum can give you some tips to cut down your sharpening time and make your edge last longer.

-Phil

[Dave Anderson NH]

Hi Dennis,

I look at sharpening as something to be done and completed as quickly as possible. If a given level of sharpening gives you the results you need on a board then the plane, chisel, or whatever is sharp enough. I have a cynical friend who once observed that there are multiple hobbies in woodworking,eg: sharpening vs using, making your project vs shop building, designing vs building. Now obviously these are somewhat tongue in cheek, but you get the drift. I've always maintained that sharpening can become a fetish.

A couple of useful things to help you out though:

Remove the blade with its chip breaker in place and touch up the blade on a strop with half a dozen strokes well before you think it is needed and you will have to fully sharpen less often. This should take less than a minute.

Sharpen only using the finest stone or grit you finished with last time and see how it works. If it does the job stay with this technique until something changes. If there is a change, drop back to the next coarser grit, use it , and then finish with your finest grit. There is no need to go back to square one each and every time unless you really chip up the blade, drop it, or have some other catastrophy.

Seek out someone who has experience and spend part of a day learning how they keep their sharpening efficient.

As Mike W. jokingly mentioned, sharpening is a job that you will have to deal with as long as you work wood. Think hard and experiment to find a quick way that works for you. There is no right or wrong in this, only the results matter.

[tod evans]

dave, that`s well written sound advice! tod

[Zahid Naqvi]

I would offer my services but I am a scary sharper, and that too with limited experience. Perhaps one of these weekends in your shop, after we get done with our on-calls. And I do have a hand plane to deliver.

[Jeff Farris]

I spend an hour putting an edge on a plane iron.
I put the iron back into the handplane.
I push the plane across the wood.....and now that 1 hour labor edge on the plane iron is now shot...getting more and more dull by each stroke of the plane. Back to taking it apart, back to sharpening again, 1 hour later, repeat all steps above.
To me? Why should I spend $$$ on getting the best edge one could ever get when it will cut just as well with a minimum of fuss without the keenest edge you ever saw.?? :confused: :confused: ...


I think Dennis was exaggerating on both his 1 hour and his 60 seconds. But, I understand his issue, and there are several factors at play here. You get into the Zen of sharpening and take the edge down with ever decreasing grit size, up to the finest available stone, being ever so careful not to touch the edge to anything -- then you put it in a plane and jam it into a piece of hardwood (again -- exaggerating on the "jamming":) ) Another issue at play here is the quality of the steel involved. Some steels - even those with the same composition - will hold an edge of say 28 degrees for a very long time (relatively speaking), but an edge of 23 degrees dulls very quickly.

I'll go along with several of the responses on this thread that lean toward creating a serviceable edge as quickly as possible. However, I think each indvidual piece of tool steel needs to be "read" as to how it likes to work. If you have a chisel or iron that seems to dull very quickly, try honing just a bit more angle on it, and see what that does. You may find that a very slight tweak to the angle will yield a much longer lasting edge.

[tod evans]

I'll go along with several of the responses on this thread that lean toward creating a serviceable edge as quickly as possible. However, I think each indvidual piece of tool steel needs to be "read" as to how it likes to work. If you have a chisel or iron that seems to dull very quickly, try honing just a bit more angle on it, and see what that does. You may find that a very slight tweak to the angle will yield a much longer lasting edge.

jeff, this is sound advice too! i know if i`m working on gnarley stuff and dulling the blade quickly, whether it be a plane iron or carving chisel, i`ll just instinctively put more steel behind the edge when i touch it up. but lotsa folks are set on the "math" of sharpening and forget to pay attention to how the edge is doing in service....thanks! tod

[Dennis Peacock]

Thanks guys....I'm still at work doing my day job right now and will digest all this later tonight.

Jeff....my exaggeration of 1 hour is very realistic. I've spent up to 5 hours just flattening and sharpening a single chisel. It's probably more me than anything else. I need to figure out a process of sharpening and how to best get that edge with a LOT less effort.
I have the LV Veritas honing jig and such as that. I also have 3 Japanese waterstones that I've used over time, but not much because with only 4 hours in the shop at night, how can I justify spending 2 hours sharpening a couple of irons.?? when I really need to be "making" something.

I have two grinders....1 highspeed grinder, 8" and one slow speed grinder, also and 8". I also have my Tormek, a diamond 320 grit, various sandpapers, and my Japanese waterstone. I tried using sandpaper once.....once.....and I used over 50 sheets of sandpaper trying to flatten and sharpen a single 3/4" chisel. Needless to say....I don't use sandpaper for sharpening. :rolleyes:

[Charles McKinley]

Hi Dennis,

Find someone that sucessfully uses the method that you like the most and go and watch them go from a new tool that needs the back flattened to sharp and also just touching up one of their tools.

There are a few tricks to each method and I think it is best to pick one method and stick with it. Once you get the hang of it it becomes second nature.

It took me until I was 18 to be able to sharpen knives like my Father. That is at least 5 or 6 good years of frustration. Now I can sit or stand and have a conversation while putting a razor edge on a knife. (a $5 aluminum oxide double sided dry stone.)

It took me a few weeks of serious playing to get a grip on the plane irons. It will come.

If you cannot go work with some one I really liked Leonard Lee's book on sharpening.

Also you don't have to do it all at once, especially for getting the backs to the perfect mirror finish! (Which I thought for a long time I would never get and was a cruel cruel joke.)

Get the edge usable and with each subsequent sharpening the polish will get better and better until your chisels will too have that TV chisel shot where the back shines like a mirror.

[Gary Herrmann]

I tried using sandpaper once.....once.....and I used over 50 sheets of sandpaper trying to flatten and sharpen a single 3/4" chisel. Needless to say....I don't use sandpaper for sharpening. :rolleyes:

Dennis, I'm no expert, but I would wonder what grit you're starting with?

I use the sandpaper method, and I've gotten a set of 6 Marples flattened and honed in about 60-90 minutes I think. I wasn't timing myself and this was my first use of the LV honing jig. I went up to 2000 grit - I started with 220. The backs were mirror finished and I could shave arm hairs with the edges.

I've used my planes on cherry and oak for a couple projects and just noticed tonight that the edge on my smoother seemed to be less sharp. I'll have to experiment on which grit to start with to resharpen.

Like I said, I'm no expert. Use what you feel comfortable with. I'm sure the smart folks here will be able to point you toward a good solution.

[Ben Hobbs]

I have been sharpening chisels and plane irons for about 25 yr. using a 6 X 48 belt sander with 220 grit and buffing the wire edge off with a cloth wheel with buffing rouge. It has certainly served me well. It usually takes less than 60 seconds to sharpen a chisel or plane iron. I do lathe chisels and scraper blades the same way. Ben

[Dennis Peacock]

Thanks guys....I still haven't had time to digest all this yet. It was a LOOOONG night at work last night and now it's back to work today.

Sandpaper? What I started with? 150 grit
and after the 50th sheet of sandpaper? Probably in the 400 grit range, I threw my hands up and quit.

Now please listen to me.....
I'm not making any of this up. I'm being as open and honest with you and sharing my experiences as openly as possible. I just have to believe that I'm not the only person on SMC that has this many frustrations with sharpening. I know that I've spent at least $2K on sharpening stuff, jigs, supplies and such. The one that made the biggest difference for me? My Tormek. It's because of the sharp tools that I've gotten off my Tormek that has allowed me to enjoy working with hand tools and such because of a nice cutting edge.

Maybe I'm trying way too many sharpening methods / processes. Maybe I'll never be a Jeff Farris, Tod Evans, Gary Herman, Steven Wilson, Steve Clardy, or even a Dave Anderson.....I just want to learn how to sharpen an edge without it taking me all night in the shop, without all the frustration, and without having to spend another $1K on items, jigs, setups and supplies.

I'm very sure that it's an education that I'm missing on sharpening, but reading all the stuff on the internet only frustrates and confuses me even more because it's always, I use Japanese waterstones...well, those suck you can only get a nice edge with Shapton stone....well, those are too expensive, you can get just as good of an edge with a 220 belt sander and a buffing wheel.....well, that doesn't work for tool-x and will require a use of the DMT Diamond stones, granite plate, leather strop and rouge...........and the list goes on almost forever.

Maybe I shouldn't have even started this thread because I'm frustrated with not getting the sharp tools that I've "read" I should have and just be satisfied with what I can get and learn from that. But I just couldn't stop and not say anything. I can't be the lone woodworker on this subject. Right?

[tod evans]

dennis,you`re really close to getting this whole sharpening thing figured out! stop throwing money at it and stop looking at sharpening as some sort of voodoo or mathematical equation you can`t figure out.....it`s all feel.......it really doesn`t matter what "system" you use untill you get the feel it`s going to be a bugger! kinda like riding a bike you can read about it for hours, buy the most expensive training wheels with gyroscopic levelers and affix a gps system to the handlebars but untill you get the feel for it it`ll fustrate you to no end......you can learn to "ride" on a western-auto single speed or on a lightspeed racing bike it doesn`t matter.......get the point? keep skinning your knees you`ll be rollin` before you know it then there`s no lookin` back..;) .....02 tod

[Len Reiss]

Dennis
In your first post you mentioned that a razor sharp plane blade is becoming dull almost immediately. The first question I asked myself was what was the history of the blade itself. Was it brand new when you got it or did it come to you second or third hand? I was thinking that at sometime in the lifespan of that blade, someone used a high speed grinder and burned the living s&%@ out of it. If the temper is gone, it will not hold an edge. So far I have been lucky with old planes. With the exception of the Lie-Nielson, they all came from the local antique mall. All of them seem to have good steel. Aside from that question, I have nothing else to add, as you are already getting the best advice possible. Just remember that all of us went through some difficult days when it came to sharpening.

Len

[Mike Armstrong]

I'm jumping in here late, I used to feel the same frustration as Dennis. I have to agree with Tod that's it's more about the process. Like many of us, you've fallen bigtime for the marketing pitches. Gotta have this [insert product name . . . special particular stone/jig/system, etc.] to do it right. But it's just about bringing two flat surfaces together to make a cutting edge.

For about 5 yrs., I've been taking classes at Palomar College's Cabinet and Furniture Technology in the San Diego area. [Is it a no-no to post a URL? then Google the name] With both students and instructors, I've talked about and tried every conceivable sharpening method in existence. I've watched some visiting Japanese craftsmen work up an edge on their expensive waterstones, then plane off a 4- or 5-ft. shaving that's only a few microns thick. OTOH, my carving instructor uses an old piece of ceramic tile he found somewhere for most of his sharpening. And he's cranked out a ton of exquisite work.

Now that you probably own one of everything :(, you need to settle on a very limited number of abrasives and jigs and work on perfecting the process to get an acceptably sharp edge to your satisfaction in the quickest time posible to be able to do the work you want to do.

Just as an example, some comments on the scary sharp system, since you mentioned it. I'm not suggesting it, it's not for everybody. I just like it and use it a lot. Based on your time spent and sheets of paper used - 5 hrs/50 sheets!!! - I'd offer these observations. Taking 5 hrs. makes me think you're working too hard by using too fine a grit. Same would apply if you were using stones. (I remember the "80 rule" for sanding wood from one of my first classes, using 80 grit to do 80% of the work. Yeah, you can get the machine tool marks out of wood with 220, but it'll take forever.) I might start first-time flattening/sharpening a chisel at something courser than 150. I've started a couple plane irons on course emery cloth. Then work systematically through the grits to a point where you want to stop. For me, it's usually about 1200, 1500, rarely 2000. And the back really only has to be flat just behind the edge, 1/8" or less. But wanna get a mirror finish on the whole back? I don't, but you can certainly do it on your tools. I think the average time for a first time job on a chisel would be about 20 min max. I use a Veritas honing guide, but used one of those old $10 gray ones for years. To touch the edge up later, I'd drop back to about 400 or so and work up through the grits again. This should take less than 5 min. ;)

I didn't fall into this process, but suffered through years of frustration, too. So use scary sharp, arkansas stones, japanese stones, diamond plates, Tormek, whatever, it'll happen with experience, not just with something you buy.

[Keith Hooks]

I can relate to your frustration, for sure. It took me a while before I settled into a sharpening system that I was happy with. Along the way, I learned a few things:

1) Make sure your reference surface is flat - meaning your stones are flat or your sandpaper substrate is flat. It turns out that my waterstones didn't stay flat as long as I thought they did.

2) Don't stay at one grit once you have a consistant surface finish. In other words, make sure the scratches all look the same before moving on to the next but once they are, move on. Any more time spent at that grit is wasted effort. It was hard at first for me to know what to look for.

3) Make SURE your stones are clean and your tools are clean before proceeding to the next stage. If you're not careful, you'll carry grit from one stage along to the next. Then you'll notice these larger than normal scratched on the tool surface caused by these bigger grains that you brought along with you from the previous stone/paper. It makes it impossible for me to judge when I'm ready to proceed if there are other scratched in the surface.

4) Manage the burr. This is something I still struggle with. I know that burr is there, and it makes the tool feel sharp, but that's the first thing to go once I start cutting. I know I need to get rid of it, but I still haven't worked out a consistant (the KEY to sharpening) process for doing so.

Sharpening used to seem like magic, but things slowly came together. I'm still no expert, but it's a lot less painful and frustrating than it used to be. The first step is to get consistant results (process in control). Once you can achieve that, then you can start to tweak the process to hit your desired target.

[Mike Wenzloff]

...Maybe I'm trying way too many sharpening methods / processes. Maybe I'll never be a Jeff Farris, Tod Evans, Gary Herman, Steven Wilson, Steve Clardy, or even a Dave Anderson.....I just want to learn how to sharpen an edge without it taking me all night in the shop, without all the frustration, and without having to spend another $1K on items, jigs, setups and supplies.

I'm very sure that it's an education that I'm missing on sharpening, but reading all the stuff on the internet only frustrates and confuses me even more because it's always, I use Japanese waterstones...well, those suck you can only get a nice edge with Shapton stone....well, those are too expensive, you can get just as good of an edge with a 220 belt sander and a buffing wheel.....well, that doesn't work for tool-x and will require a use of the DMT Diamond stones, granite plate, leather strop and rouge...........and the list goes on almost forever...
Dennis,

As others have said, stop throwing money at this. I would add, stop reading about sharpening.

You have sandpaper. You have waterstones. You have a Tormek. I have no idea what else you have.

Pick one of the above and use it. Oh, perhaps use the Tormek for rough shaping. But only use the paper or stones for edge refinement.

Also, if a Creeker is near you who can watch you and give some pointers, get a bit of y'alls beverage of choice and spend a pleasurable afternoon with the equipment you currently own.

Don't use their stuff. Have them help you with your own sharpening gear. Sharpening, even learning sharpening, should not be stressful. Having a helping hand may well make it more pleasurable.

Take care, Mike

[Hans Braul]

The Fine Woodworking site has a good video showing Andy Rae sharpening a plane iron using Japanese water stones without any kind of honing guide.. I found it really informative and quite simple. I tried it his way and it worked, but have since gone to the LV Mk II honing guide for better consistency. I think it helps to watch an expert actually perform the task to get a feel for what he's talking about. THe FWW site isn't free, but I've found it's well worth the $$ just for all the archived articles, plans, videos, etc.

Cheers
Hans

[Gary Herrmann]

Dennis, Mike gives good advice. Pick one method you like or have a good feel for and stick with it. You've got a good eye and hands - it shows in the work you do. Maybe you just need a little time to get a feel for it.

Oh, and thanks for making me an "a" in your previous post. No one's referred to me that way since I stopped playing ball. ;)

[Dennis Peacock]

Dennis, Mike gives good advice. Pick one method you like or have a good feel for and stick with it. You've got a good eye and hands - it shows in the work you do. Maybe you just need a little time to get a feel for it.

Oh, and thanks for making me an "a" in your previous post. No one's referred to me that way since I stopped playing ball. ;)

Thanks Gary.....But....shoot-far....I even misspelled your last name. :o Sorry buddy!!!!! But you are STILL an "a" in my book. ;)

[Robert Trotter]

Dennis,

First I should say that I have up until now sharpened my tools by hand on a regular Japanese water stone. I am not great at it it but have been improving. It use to be the finest grit size being about 1000 or 2000. (can't remember now and the markings are all gone now) I had a good enough edge that I was happy for what I was doing at that time. (Japanese irons) Then I read a lot and got some finer grit stone now 6000 being the finest. Getting a better a edge now but sometimes it seemed not to be as good an edge as when I used the courser grit stone. A bit frustrating. I got the suggested sharpening book by Leonard Lee and that opened up my eyes to a lot.

Some things I picked up which may be good to think about.


Has the blade likely been overheated and the temper drawn out? (already mentioned ) Maybe chuck it or try to grind back into good steel again - slowly.:confused:
(already mentioned )Maybe you need to increase (adjust slightly) the angle of the bevel for your iron. For better edge retention A bigger angle between the bevel and the back could give better edge retention. Maybe try a few degree difference and see if it changes anything. But try to keep this angle to a minimum for what wood youa re working on.
Maybe you have a micro backbevel (Don't know what to call it really:o ) from natural wear on the back which could be effecting cutting and sharpening.:confused:
You don't have to do heaps and heaps of strokes. Just as many as you need to as suggested above. Until the scratches are all the same. (I found I had been over-working my blades a bit...Just wasting time and steel/rion)
be consistant with your pressure when sharpening. I made up a jig for sharpening with the Scarey sharp method to give it a go. One problem I found with my technique after lots of thinking about it was that I was applying just a little bit different pressure through my strokes which ended up just ever so slightly curving the bevel and so I wasn't getting the best edge.I agree ...
if a Creeker is near you who can watch you and give some pointers, get a bit of y'alls beverage of choice and spend a pleasurable afternoon with the equipment you currently own
One Suggestion (Take it waith a grain of salt)

But if you are like me and this is not an option...

I don't have a lot of experience with the Tormac. Actually never really seen one. :D But from what I have read some people are quite happy with the edge straight off that. I am uncertain of the equivalent fineness of stone it is. It seems that you are reasonably happy with the edge from it as well.(is this right?)

Maybe some others could comment here ....But after the Tormac just use one of the methods you seem to have had the best experience (stone or Scarely sharp - probably the stones from what you have said) with the veritas jig and just work on a microbevel. It may only need a half dozen strokes on just a couple of the finer grits. (comments by others here please) Work on consistant light pressure all the way through your strokes. Too much pressure for me means lack of control. The jig is a guide only, you apply the pressure still.

Why not just try only one grit finer than the Tormec and see if that is an improvement for you. (someone might be able to suggest somehting) Stay there for a while, then later on add another finer grit and stay there for a while.
(As already mentioned) Only when the blade is not cutting well enough for you to do the job at hand do you need to touch it up. Just touch up the micro-bevel with a few strokes on that last grit and back to work. And as mentioned earlier by someone try to to do this touch up when you first notice when the drop in performance is almost uacceptable to you (i.e just before) and then only touch up should be neccessary.

Basically I had been staying with one grit imporvement over the last for a while and then after I was confortable I added another level. It seems to have worked OK for me.

My 2 cents worth.

[Mike Wenzloff]

Ah, Robert, that's worth more than 2 pennies.

Adding a single stone [insert paper or one of your wife's Chia plates <g>] past the Tormek might be all that's needed.

But the retention, the edge failure is most likely a separate issue, Dennis. So if it keeps failing what you think is prematurely, chuck it and get a new replacement blade.

fwiw, I think the Tormek when graded fine is about 1k grit.

Take care, Mike

[Eddie Darby]

4) Manage the burr. This is something I still struggle with. I know that burr is there, and it makes the tool feel sharp, but that's the first thing to go once I start cutting. I know I need to get rid of it, but I still haven't worked out a consistant (the KEY to sharpening) process for doing so.

Have you heard about the new approach to sharpening by Harrelson Stanley of Shapton Stones called "Side Sharpening"? It deals with the burr by having it peel/shear off the blade as you side sharpen.

This is a PDF file from Popular Woodworking article:

http://www.japanesetools.com/pages/June06PW_SIDE%20SHARPENING.pdf

The burr part is near the bottom.

This page has a 40 Mb QuickTime movie:

http://www.japanesetools.com/tools/media/dvds.php#sidesharp

This page has the dates and locations of the demos given by Harrelson Stanley.

http://www.japanesetools.com/pages/SharpTour2006.php


What is it that Tony Little says again....Oh Yeah "It's technique! Technique!"

[Jeff Farris]

...fwiw, I think the Tormek when graded fine is about 1k grit.

Take care, Mike

Correct. And the honing compound is equivalent to 6000 grit.

[Zahid Naqvi]

Guys, I'm a frequent visitor at Denis' shop, I bet I'll fix him up in one session. Heck I'll even get him sharpening hand saws while we are at it.:D

[Mike Wenzloff]

Zahid--see, this is a good thing. Dennis, check with Zahid for his choice of beverage!

Take care, Mike

[Mike Wenzloff]

Hi Jeff--thanks. I forget about the honing wheel frequently. Probably because if I use the Tormek for an edge I choose to hand hone on stones following.

But the bugger works. My wife uses it on some of her turning tools--heck, it's her Tormek.

Take care, Mike

[Dennis Peacock]

Thanks everyone. I acutally got off work before midnight last night and I was so sick and tired of being sick and tired of my sharpening skills.....I went to the shop. :D

My purpose for getting in the shop was FOR SHARPENING and LEARNING and no woodworking was to be had. My plan is to figure out what my problem was and why I'm spending so much time sharpening. I've got more than enough "stuff" in my shop in which to sharpen thing with, so why not. ;)

I pulled out my LV Medium Shoulder Plane and took the blade out. I had a very nice edge on it from when I sharpened it for the very first time. My concern was being able to "duplicate" that angle so I wouldn't keep making the blade smaller and smaller trying to get it back sharp again. Since my eyes aren't as good as they used to me, I had to rely more on feel that what I was seening. I was able to put the blade in the LV jig, prep my 6000 stone with water and Nagura and get the edge "back" on the blade to where it would cut nice curls. I was happy....oh yes I was. :)

I was given a very old Bedrock #608????, It's a bedrock jointer plane, and I got it for helping someone building a table for they son. Said it belonged to his grandfather and remembered him having back in the '30's.....Who knows. I don't know much about handplanes except that I like using them. :D
I took it apart, took out the blade and went to the Tormek. To keep from boring you to tears....I was able to Tormek the old rusted blade back to 30º and power honed it on the Tormek as well. I was able to shave the hair on my arm with the blade and then tested it out on some Poplar. The poplar planed so smooth that I could not tell which direction the grain was after swishing the plane across the board. WOW....never seen nor felt a board be so smooth after a handplane before....well....I have from one of Zahid's boards from his handplanes...but not mine. So I guess I'm catching up with Zahid....or maybe I just got lucky. :rolleyes:

Now...my problem. I found one of my problems last night. It's a simple fix, but I gotta figure out how to fix it. Sharpening an iron once is easy. Sharpening the iron twice without re-grinding or starting the sharpening process all over is my problem. Getting the iron set back to the same angle as before and start out on my 1200 JWS and then finish up on my 6000 JWS with Nagura. My Shoulder Plane was easy since the blade is thick and is easy to find and feel the angle of the blade. It's all my "other" planes where I am having troubles getting it all set to what it was before.:o
I knocked a keen edge plum-off a good plane iron last night trying to get the angle back, put it on the stone and it was if I was trying to scrape a new 2" rabbet in my waterstone!!!!:mad: I put the iron back in the plane and set it aside for another nights adventure.

So there you have it....a couple of hours in the shop with Dennis while he tries to figure out the best venue for his handplanes.;)

[Roy Wall]

Dennis,

THis is the setup I use for sharpening....

It's from the LN guy (Deneb)....this registers the plane blade the same distance every time.

Then, using the 1/8" thick walnut shim, I use it to shorten the blade length, therefore creating a 2* or so micro bevel for the 8000 stone,

I only use a 1000, 8000 stone system...just like Deneb at LN..

Hope this helps....

[Mike Wenzloff]

Hi Dennis,

Is the LV honing jig you have the MK.II? If so, using the angle setting jig consistently at the same setting will produce the same result each time. Do make sure if you change the microbevel knob you return it to its topmost position before reshaping the bevel.

If you are using the former LV jig, make yourself an angle setting jig in order to avoid adjusting by sight and or feel, or trial by error. This jig works by consistently setting the projection of the tool.

To make it, go through the hassle of setting up a plane iron in the jig. Take a small piece of scrap ply. Square the scrap. Butt the front of the jig against the front edge of the ply. Trace a line across the plane iron's edge. Get another piece of scrap. Position it on that traced line and fastening with glue, and a screw or two. Label this stop "30 degrees" or whatever.

Add another piece down the side, but so it projects above the surface. This creates a 90 degree side to register your plane iron to in relation to the front of the jig's base.

In use, slide the iron into the jig, snug the screw down on the iron, but not so much you cannot move the iron. Put the front of the jig against the ply base, iron against both the side and length stops. Tighten jig down securely.

As you have and are using the JWSs, just take a couple swipes on the 1.2k, then the 6k. In all likelihood, your results will be the same, thick or thin blade, everytime.

Take care, Mike

[Jerry Palmer]

On initially renewing a bevel, I work all of the way through the stones creating just the single bevel. On rehoning I create a secondary micro-bevel or cutting bevel or what ever you want to call it.

The way I do the secondary bevel is I set the existing bevel flat onto my 1000 grit water stone and, watching where the edge meets the stone, apply pressure on the bevel edge while slowly lifting the other end of the blade until I see water being "squeezed" out of the stone right at the edge of the blade. That is the angle I want to maintain as I begin honing. A dozen or so strokes on the 1000 grit stone and check for a wire edge on the back of the blade. Generally that is enough, and if it isn't, a courser stone may be in order. This should create a very small secondary bevel, maybe one or two degrees higher than the initial one. Then work that bevel up through the grits to as fine a surface as you want for the work you are doing. One the final stone, alternate with a couple strokes on the secondary bevel and a couple on the back through several iterations until you have worked the wire edge off.

This is all a matter of justing doing it over and over and at some point it just becomes automatic, and then a little later you may not even go back to raising a wire edge that you can feel and may just need to use the finest one or two stones to touch up the edge.

This does have a tendency to round the bevel and create an ever increasing cutting angle, so after several rehonings, you will want to recreate your initial bevel again. One way I tell for sure it is time to renew a bevel is when polishing on the back does not push the wire edge over the bevel side and it is neccesary to raise the trailing end of the blade off the stone slightly in order to get to the wire edge. This indicates that the back of the blade at the cutting edge has been worn and the bevel needs to be moved further up the blade.

[Steven Wilson]

Dennis, I generally don't use a guide to hold a blade, I use my hands. I learned how to sharpen without a guide a few years back when I had a carving class. I find that the hollow ground a Tormek provides makes it fairly easy to feel the bevel. I then lock my hands and go through my sharpening stroke. To make it consistent I practiced with a video camera and a TV. Doing so takes less time, and is generally more accurate, than trying to reestablish a bevel with a guide. Harelson Stanley (shapton stones and japaneese tools fame) has a couple of DVD's that go through this.

[Zahid Naqvi]

The poplar planed so smooth that I could not tell which direction the grain was after swishing the plane across the board. WOW....never seen nor felt a board be so smooth after a handplane before....well....I have from one of Zahid's boards from his handplanes...but not mine. So I guess I'm catching up with Zahid....or maybe I just got lucky. :rolleyes:


There goes my chance to score some brownie points ;)



Now...my problem. I found one of my problems last night. It's a simple fix, but I gotta figure out how to fix it. Sharpening an iron once is easy. Sharpening the iron twice without re-grinding or starting the sharpening process all over is my problem.

Maybe there is still hope :cool: So far the traffic has been one way, from Dennis to me, I see an opportunity for a payback here.

[Dennis Peacock]

I'll be ready when you are Zahid. But you have to show me with stuff I already have. OK? ;) :D

[Joe Meazle]

There goes my chance to score some brownie points ;)



Maybe there is still hope :cool: So far the traffic has been one way, from Dennis to me, I see an opportunity for a payback here.

Good luck every time I try to even up wtih Dennis he goes and does two or three things for me.

Joe

[Dennis Peacock]

Good luck every time I try to even up wtih Dennis he goes and does two or three things for me.

Joe

LOL!!!! But that's what friends are for. :rolleyes:

Hey Joe....I still need to try my hand on sharpening your jointer blades for ya sometime. :D